![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 40. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 22:36:05
Just a quick update. [well probably not quick, knowing me]
I had an hour of my session and then T said that today was our anniversary, and he took out pink roses for me. I love pink. He thanked me for being in his life and being such a good person, and he said I'm a remarkable woman :') [I kinda wanted to laugh, cause I hardly feel like a "woman".] But he's the only one who's ever given me flowers [only on special occasions though]. ANd he's the only man in my real-life who's said such nice things like that. :') [it's not what I'm used to and feels a little gross, but I appreciate him offering it] I know he doesn't think I'm ugly, even when i think I'm my worst, cause today was one of those days, and he was still nice anyways. :') And he said he's proud of me for committing like I have. I did feel a little awkward at first. BUt that's just cause it sounded a bit strange cause I've never celebrated a real-relationship anniversary before (and for like half a second, I worried he'd expect me to kiss him. But he didn't expect that. And I didn't.)
[the only thing I worry about is that my time ran even longer today and the girl-woman after me probably heard him say, "I'm glad you like the flowers" and then saw me walk out with them. I panicked and said, "I won't bring them next time." cause I didn't want her to feel weird or something. I hope she wasn't really noticing, or thought I'd brought them in for show.]And I felt kinda rude cause I had no idea [I don't keep track of stuff like that] and I didn't have anything for him. I was thinking that maybe I'd just get him something neutral for Valentine's Day to make up for me not knowing.
****I wonder if other people give their T's a little something on V-day?****
And then he told me about his latest session with his T. HE TOLD HIM! He didn't use the L-word but he told his T that he's so unsettled, and he can't get calm anymore (like he always was). That he has intense feelings for me [who his T already knows is a much younger female] and that he can't stand not having an outlet for all his feelings. That he doesn't want to turn them off, but that he knows the barriers between having a real relationship.
He said he felt weird being the "patient who confesses a secret" - that he's having a hard time being in that role instead. He said he had felt bad about not being completely forthright their last session, and he'd promised me he'd try. [One of the first things he said to me was, "You'll be so proud of me...."] I was. I am. I told him so. It was an amazingly brave thing for him to do.
He said he felt that his T perked up for the first time, since he's been vaguely mentioning the upset he's been feeling lately. He said his T didn't say anything interms of lecturing or advice (which he was relieved by) but that he just genuinely listened. He said that he thought his T seemed interested because he is a man too and could understand how feelings like that could happen -- and that that's why he didn't judge him. He hasn't told him everything yet, like specific things, but this is a huge, gigantic step.
He said that his T seemed really supportive, and recommended that they increase the frequency of his sessions. He didn't want to, but I said to please try, and think of it as accepting his T's offer to recieve more care, and attention. And if he hates it after a trial, he can cut it back down again. So he said he thinks he will accept the offer (though he's not definite). [His T is away now for three weeks so the increase wouldn't start until he gets back]
[And my T is REALLY helping me with my medical situation right now. I've been so unwell the past few weeks and he's really stepping in and organzing what I need to do, and he's gonna deal directly with some of my doctors.] He can't be so bad. He's not as bad. There's worse men, who are worse and do worse, and he's not like that. He could be but he's not. I don't want to be afraid of all. I want him on my side.
So aside from my health, T is going well. I've even felt the urge to hug him lately cause I'm so proud of him. ANd I've forgotten to be sad about alot of other stuff in my life. {Though to be fair, I am taking more Ativan lately then I ever have in the past -- but I guess that's okay} I've also been having the urge to get my name off the Trauma Group list. I wrote out the email to the woman and almost sent it twice. Didn't. [yet?] It's still sitting in my draft folder right now. I don't think I need to talk about it because it's gone from my head now. And why would I want to bring it back when it only just left. [I don't know though. I feel like I owe the "woman" alot for all her help. But I also know she wouldn't want me staying on the list just to please her. Cause really, it doesn't effect her at all. I don't know. Confused]
I don't know if anyone cares, but I thought I'd follow-up cause even *I* was wondering if he'd really go through with the next step like he said.
I think this could be my last thread on this for awhile, or ever (unless my world blows up). I'm going to try to honor his efforts by respecting his privacy more now, since I'm not going to be hurt now or anything, and it's gonna fix without anyone being destroyed. :') So that's it, I guess. Thanks.blove El
Posted by LadyBug on February 3, 2007, at 1:37:17
In reply to The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 22:36:05
(((((((Elaine)))))))
Everyone deserves to be loved and have some happiness in their life. I hope this is what it means to you. You are loved! :o)
I know some people will criticize, but I won't even go there. I'm am not to judge, just offer support. I hope you update sometime and I wish you the best on your journey. I always care about you.LadyBug
Posted by caraher on February 3, 2007, at 6:24:59
In reply to The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 22:36:05
> He thanked me for being in his life and being such a good person, and he said I'm a remarkable woman :')
It's so true. And more than that - you're a remarkable human being. (Which I say because I know sometimes you think of women as lesser beings, which you are NOT!)
>>> But he's the only one who's ever given me flowers [only on special occasions though]. ANd he's the only man in my real-life who's said such nice things like that. :') [it's not what I'm used to and feels a little gross, but I appreciate him offering it]
I hope you get used to being treated well. You deserve it.
>>> I panicked and said, "I won't bring them next time." cause I didn't want her to feel weird or something. I hope she wasn't really noticing, or thought I'd brought them in for show.]
That's so clever and thoughtful of you! You're so considerate to have done that - far more so than your T was, not even thinking his next client might hear or, if that was obvious, that she might feel slighted seeing another leave with flowers. You proved what your T said about you.
> And I felt kinda rude cause I had no idea [I don't keep track of stuff like that] and I didn't have anything for him. I was thinking that maybe I'd just get him something neutral for Valentine's Day to make up for me not knowing.
Don't feel bad. You did everything he could ask just by being there and accepting the flowers.
> ****I wonder if other people give their T's a little something on V-day?****
I never have but I'm sure many others do. It's certainly not something a T should expect! But you shouldn't do it out of a sense of obligation, and I'd be wary of sending him the wrong message if you do bring him something. You should only do it if you can be sure he wouldn't take it as a sign that you want your relationship to proceed in the wrong direction, and if you are not giving the gift because you feel you "owe" him one for his anniversary gift.
>> He said he felt weird being the "patient who confesses a secret" - that he's having a hard time being in that role instead. He said he had felt bad about not being completely forthright their last session, and he'd promised me he'd try. [One of the first things he said to me was, "You'll be so proud of me...."] I was. I am. I told him so. It was an amazingly brave thing for him to do.:)
>>> He hasn't told him everything yet, like specific things, but this is a huge, gigantic step.Yes. That's great! I'm happy about this and proud of YOU for insistently prodding your T in this direction.
> He said that his T seemed really supportive, and recommended that they increase the frequency of his sessions. He didn't want to, but I said to please try, and think of it as accepting his T's offer to recieve more care, and attention. And if he hates it after a trial, he can cut it back down again. So he said he thinks he will accept the offer (though he's not definite). [His T is away now for three weeks so the increase wouldn't start until he gets back]
That sounds promising, too, though it's too bad about the three weeks. Be sure to keep encouraging him to take advantage of that offer!
> [And my T is REALLY helping me with my medical situation right now. I've been so unwell the past few weeks and he's really stepping in and organzing what I need to do, and he's gonna deal directly with some of my doctors.]
Excellent! You need and deserve this kind of help!
>>> He can't be so bad. He's not as bad. There's worse men, who are worse and do worse, and he's not like that. He could be but he's not. I don't want to be afraid of all. I want him on my side.
(((El))) I don't think even his worst critic here would claim he doesn't do good things. You've undoubtedly been around a lot of men who have been truly horrible to you, and I totally understand why you want him on your side. I'm glad someone gives you flowers and says to your face that you're remarkable and kind.
> I don't know if anyone cares, but I thought I'd follow-up cause even *I* was wondering if he'd really go through with the next step like he said.
We care! And please keep us informed... you're not betraying anyone by doing this. You've always been extremely careful to maintain his anonymity.
I'm so happy things seem to be looking up! (((EL)))
Posted by muffled on February 3, 2007, at 11:48:19
In reply to The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 22:36:05
Thank you so much El, I am thrilled for you.
And him!
Yup you SO amazing.
Glad you let us know.
Please keep letting us know how you are doing?
:)
Muffled
Posted by ElaineM on February 3, 2007, at 15:12:55
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update » ElaineM, posted by LadyBug on February 3, 2007, at 1:37:17
Thanks Ladybug. That was such a lovely thing you said: "Everyone deserves to be loved and have some happiness in their life."
I'm grateful for your listening (((LadyB))) [I care about you too. It's important to me when I hear from you :) ]
I will update if need be -- though now, I doubt it will. But I'll be around still either way (just not posting the same threads).
blove El
Posted by ElaineM on February 3, 2007, at 15:15:21
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update » ElaineM, posted by muffled on February 3, 2007, at 11:48:19
Thanks Muff.
I'm happy too. And I really hope it lasts.
But I feel good about the way things are turning out right now. And I have a feeling that it will all work out. Cause it just *has* to, you know? :)(((muffly))) [I'll always keep you in the loop, whenever the loop changes :) ]
blove El
Posted by ElaineM on February 3, 2007, at 15:37:55
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by caraher on February 3, 2007, at 6:24:59
>>> But he's the only one who's ever given me flowers [only on special occasions though]. ANd he's the only man in my real-life who's said such nice things like that. :') [it's not what I'm used to and feels a little gross, but I appreciate him offering it]
>I hope you get used to being treated well. You deserve it.
Well, I don't always agree with that, but it *is* nice-feeling sometimes. See, I just knew he only wanted to treat me well. I knew it -- even underneath all the fear and my nervousness, and my social anxiety. I knew I was judging him too harshly because of old memories. And I know I've probably been overly sensitive the last while. But I need to just keep reminding myself that T is not Dad, T is not Them, T is not Him. T is only T -- who only wants to help and be kind.
>>>>>>> And I felt kinda rude cause I had no idea [I don't keep track of stuff like that] and I didn't have anything for him. I was thinking that maybe I'd just get him something neutral for Valentine's Day to make up for me not knowing.
>Don't feel bad. You did everything he could ask just by being there and accepting the flowers.
I felt guilty everytime I looked at the flowers. And I emailed him to say Thankyou, and apoligize for not really saying much then, for not giving him anything myself, and for not even hugging him, which was the least I could've done. But I said I didn't know if it was the right thing to do, cause I've never been in that situation before, and am a social reject with no intuition.
When he wrote back he said that it would've been the appropriate thing for me to do, and that he would've liked one (so I said I'll try do it next session), but that he knows I have problems speaking and thinking and reacting, in the moment, so I don't need to worry about asking if something is right or wrong, or ask him in the moment what would be the normal thing for me to do.
He did said that he should've warned me the day was coming so I could've prepared something myself. But that he wanted to look like a "big-shot" by being the one to remember. But I don't know what I can do now? Maybe try one of our old experiments for him like lunch or movie - I don't know. I don't think I'm well enough. [but as my friend only, of course.] Or maybe I should just stick to something "friend" around V day.
>>>>I'd be wary of sending him the wrong message if you do bring him something. You should only do it if you can be sure he wouldn't take it as a sign that you want your relationship to proceed in the wrong direction
Yes, it would have to be plain and small. Though I think that he realizes now that his feelings are something to just talk to with his T about, and not real in the same way. I'm not sure, but I don't think he would've mentioned them to his T, if he was still interested in possibly pursuing them. I don't think.
I wonder if LadyT will also change her mind about him now. She seemed to kinda hate him. She'll probably think he's not dangerous to be around now. I'll be glad to update her.
(((caraher))) I'm not disappearing now. But I will keep you informed :)
blove El
Posted by caraher on February 3, 2007, at 16:44:34
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update » caraher, posted by ElaineM on February 3, 2007, at 15:37:55
>>> he wanted to look like a "big-shot" by being the one to remember. But I don't know what I can do now? Maybe try one of our old experiments for him like lunch or movie - I don't know. I don't think I'm well enough.
My wife routinely forgets anniversaries, etc., and it can be kind of fun to be the one who remembered. I often try to make it a surprise of some kind. I do feel a bit bad about her forgetting, but I also like being the "big shot," so I understand your T's remark. Believe me, accepting the flowers is all you needed to do for him to feel good about it. Did you smile? Did you tell him you like them? That's the payoff for him.
Definitely do not push yourself to do something near or beyond your abilities and desires!
Posted by ElaineM on February 3, 2007, at 20:25:28
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by caraher on February 3, 2007, at 16:44:34
>>>>>>Did you smile? Did you tell him you like them?
Yes (to both).
>>>>>Definitely do not push yourself to do something near or beyond your abilities and desires
I'll keep that in mind :) I just never want to be given a pass on doing something that would come naturally to others. I hate the idea of being babied. I hate gentle. I don't like softness. I'm even a bit creeped out by "kind". I understand what you're saying, but I'd like to have the same expectations as others - that's all. If that means asking more of myself, then it should still be fair game, in a way. I want to be normal :)
[I'll admit I do have an easier time being okay with strong, authoritative, even hostile reactions. It kinda makes me want to punish myself because he did something nice. It makes my self-hate just explode. I think I may feel that if I give something in return then that will make me closer to an equal instead. I've said it before, but I honestly wonder if I'm slightly masochistic. I don't know. I know I want to be respected and strong. And recipient of "nice" sometimes feels like it counters that - at least for me. But being treated like sh*t doesn't, somehow. Doesn't seem as dangerous.] I'm trying to learn to accept something nice as a plain old "good thing", but this has been confusing.
Posted by MidnightBlue on February 4, 2007, at 0:31:33
In reply to The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 22:36:05
Elaine,
Enjoy the flowers, you have EARNED them! A smile and thank you is enough. And I'm glad he is helping you with some of your medical issues. Keep posting! and don't drop your name off the stress group list. Things are better for now. Let's hope they remain that way. You need to be sure he will KEEP going to his T and being open and honest about you.
MidnightBlue
Posted by ElaineM on February 4, 2007, at 10:35:28
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update » ElaineM, posted by MidnightBlue on February 4, 2007, at 0:31:33
Thanks Midnight :)
I'm just scared cause the only group things I've done (which was constant and many) was during my ED admissions. They weren't "specifically" trauma groups [like sometimes a person would choose to talk about not knowing how to communicate with their mother/father, or "just" depression] but alot of the time the women spoke of horrifying, violent, stomach-churning sadness, events. And that was a very contained and protected environment -- staff made sure that things didn't escalate to a level people couldn't tolerate (or that they thought they weren't ready to go to at that time). This would be different cause I'd go home alone afterwards. That's scary.
I barely spoke then too. And the thing I'd be talking about, I've only ever told in detail to LadyT [once in a panicked crying burst] and another "appropriate person", but that was also a one-shot [I'll never have contact with that professional ever again]. Plus, it's not the most ancient of history. It still seems fresh and I'm worried that now that I've got it kinda quieted and hidden that listening to others, or trying to speak myself will make it explode and thousand times worse.
I'm scared to hear others stories. I can't handle stuff like that. Once in treatment someone told a story that made one of the new therapists start crying, and that made me lose control and I've never felt so upset by someone's terribly experience, and I hurt myself after that group (on the unit). I can still vividly remember the look on that girl-woman's face, and her saying those words - it still can bring tears to my eyes. And that wasn't even my own stuff.
Also, whether I do it or not doesn't depend on what my T does, cause I wasn't going to be talking about him -- something else. T doesn't even know about what I'd be talking about. Him seeing his T *will* determine how much I stay with him, but not if I do the trauma group. Sorry if I'm confusing - I don't like thinking about making this decision.
But I didn't send the email yet.
I always hope things stay better too :)
((((MB))))) good to hear from you.
Blove El
Posted by Karolina on February 4, 2007, at 22:39:14
In reply to The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 22:36:05
Hey Elaine,
Your T said some really nice things to you which you definitely deserved to hear and I’m glad you’ve been feeling good lately. I guess your situation just has me thinking about things from a different perspective.
I mean, as strongly as I feel about my T, it overwhelmed me enough when he just emailed me every week while I moved to a different city, so I can’t imagine ever getting flowers from him, dinner, movies, etc. That would just seriously mess with my head, because I feel so strongly about him. But I don’t know if that’s the case for you; if you feel a strong emotional/physical attraction to him, or if it just feels more like somebody that’s there for you right now.
I just hope he isn’t holding you back from real relationships with other men. That he isn’t trying to seduce you by saying kind things to you and giving you gifts, and then making you feel like you can’t meet other guys because it might make him angry or feel “hurt”.
Your T is sitting there wanting you to be proud of him because he is seeing HIS T. I guess it is good that he is, so that he can try to talk out his feelings for you and get a better grasp on you guys’ situation, but I just wonder if it’s really best he is telling you all that.
Or maybe what I really mean is that I hope he isn’t making you pay him anymore, making you pay him to have to listen to him talk about seeing his T.
I know you are probably thinking I am saying this all out of jealousy but I really just care. I know I’m not sugar-coating things and maybe I should, because it’s not my intentions to offend you or upset you, but I just still see a lot of red flags from what you are saying.
I’ve been in situations as well as many of my close friends have, where guys will lie and say anything to a girl who feels bad about herself so that they can get laid. or they will manipulate a girl who can’t stand up for herself. so I just don’t want to see that happen to you. Please be careful and take care,
Karolina
Posted by Karolina on February 5, 2007, at 0:38:20
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by Karolina on February 4, 2007, at 22:39:14
Hey Elaine,
I didn't mean for it to look like I'm being insensitive or cold about your situation. Maybe I've mistaken the meanings of some of things you've written and I'm really sorry if I have. I think since I’ve been treated so badly by guys in the past (including experiencing rape by what I thought was a close friend that I had always trusted) it makes me extra suspicious of guys and their intentions. I just don’t want you to get hurt, but as I said I could be reading your situation totally wrong.
I think when it comes down to it, the most important thing for everyone is to just be happy. And if talking and being good friends with him is what feels important to you and makes you feel better right now, then that really is a good thing. and I hope things continue to be positive for you. I’m really sorry if I came across as hostile and I hope you understand.
Blove,
Karolina
Posted by philyra on February 5, 2007, at 14:34:13
In reply to The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 22:36:05
Elaine, I'm really glad to hear this.
I wonder if a part of your T actually really wants you to encourage him to increase his sessions and do the work that he needs to do around his feelings and conduct toward you. It's that whole thing of putting someone else in the role that you can't occupy yourself and that no one else can occupy...this may sound obvious, but I think you're serving some pretty big needs for him in terms of his journey.
Maybe this is the case with all therapeutic relationships, it's just a difference of boundaries...
take care,
philyra
Posted by ElaineM on February 5, 2007, at 23:56:32
In reply to Re: sorry E, posted by Karolina on February 5, 2007, at 0:38:20
>>>>>>I guess your situation just has me thinking about things from a different perspective.
I can completely understand. I know you're in a confusing position yourself now too. Plus, I welcome other perspectives - I have blinders that don't let me see other sides until someone else points them out.
>>>>>so I can’t imagine ever getting flowers from him, dinner, movies, etc. That would just seriously mess with my head, because I feel so strongly about him. But I don’t know if that’s the case for you; if you feel a strong emotional/physical attraction to him, or if it just feels more like somebody that’s there for you right now.
He's given flowers three times (they were all for special occasions -- graduation, my birthday, our anniversary). I've never had dinner with him before (though I did have lunch with him a few times last spring/summer). He used to talk about doing more alot last summer (we did the odd easy "socially" thing) but then kinda let the idea drop. It only started up again over the Christmas break. He's asked me a few times to try to go to a movie, but he said it was like an exposure therapy (during the summer). Now, he says it would be a way for me to show I'm trying to be "closer" to him. He thinks "closeness" is really important. And when I feel bad when I can't reciprocate verbally, I consider doing these other gestures of friendship.
But to answer the question part, I don't have a physical attraction at all. Infact, I can barely stand to be around any men right now. I was scared of him too, up until learning of his last two T meetings. Now I don't feel scared because I know that his T will protect him from his confusing emotions, and me from the him that believes in them. I do however feel a strong emotional connection to him. I need his presense - I need his human-ness. I care about him. I want him to not feel pain or sadness. I'm honored that he thinks I'm a good person :'). I'm grateful he helps me with medical bureaucracy. I'm glad to not be alone in my life. I still have twinges of fear, and sometimes hate, and lesser times, disgust, but I'm sure that comes from some of the other men who've marked my life. I'm trying very hard not to make him the scapegoat for others violence, just because he's a man, or an older man. It's hard, but I hate being prejudged because of my psych history, so I don't want to prejudge him [any more than I already do wihtout knowing] just because of his gender.
>>>>>>>I just hope he isn’t holding you back from real relationships with other men.
New years, he did say he'd be jealous if I went out, and just ended up with another guy. But he didn't say to not go. The only other time was just over a year ago I was seeing someone who was much younger, and who took me out on my first "real dates" ever. He was young and dear and knew all my crap, and understood, and didn't hold it against me. [he walked me to my T's office a few times] And T used to say that he respected him for being a man and going after what he wanted. He said he envied him. But he still supported me seeing him. As far as men now....that's not even a remote possibility. I'm too sick. THere's not a long line for hermit, invalid, social phobes. *weak smile* But I don't think I could handle being near (emotionally, or physically) anyone right now.
>>>>>That he isn’t trying to seduce you by saying kind things to you and giving you gifts, and then making you feel like you can’t meet other guys because it might make him angry or feel “hurt”.
I worry about that. I mean, I know he's lost the females in his life, and sometimes he says or does things that freaks me out. But he's also coming to terms with all this, by going to T. So I have to trust that he only has pure motives. I need to trust him. I *need* to trust in someone. Part of me is always talking myself out of fear, sadness and anxiety. Half the time I don't know where the self-talk ends, and the raw feelings begin. So I do still get scared by thoughts like what you've said. That's part of why I couldn't hug him today after all. I was too afraid he'd smell my hair, and then it'd all be ruined
>>>>>>> but I just wonder if it’s really best he is telling you all that.
Technically, originally, probably not. But it's so far beyond the appropriateness of personal disclosure now. He see's me as his friend. I am his friend. He talks to me in that role. He makes comments about how it's strange that I'm like another therapist to him -- I'm not saying it makes it right, but he truely doesn't realize the wrongness of anything he's doing/done.
>>>>>>Or maybe what I really mean is that I hope he isn’t making you pay him anymore
I'm not paying him anything.
>>>>>I know you are probably thinking I am saying this all out of jealousy but I really just care. I know I’m not sugar-coating things and maybe I should, because it’s not my intentions to offend you or upset you, but I just still see a lot of red flags from what you are saying.
Not at all. I don't think it's anything to be jealous over. AT least for me.
>>>>>>I know I’m not sugar-coating things and maybe I should, because it’s not my intentions to offend you or upset you, but I just still see a lot of red flags from what you are saying.
((((k))))) I love having both sides. I like some toughness. I wish T had more toughness. Plus, while I think I know where some red flags are, I know I miss alot too. I misjudge people all the time. I misplace trust. I've been blinded before in life by what I want to see, while being in a nightmare.
>>>>>>>where guys will lie and say anything to a girl who feels bad about herself so that they can get laid. or they will manipulate a girl who can’t stand up for herself.
I don't think he's lying. But I've made mistakes before. I don't have the greatest intuition. Plus, he knows about what happened in the past. He knows I've been hurt before. He knows about my childhood. He knows almost all of the badness that's happened to me. I think he would try hard to not be the past. I sometimes think that that's why he's been so unforcefull. HE knows I'm used to a different type of male. He knows I like pain. And I like loud. And I like being told what to say and do, and he's ALWAYS been the exact opposite to that. Earlier in our relationship, I used to ask him if he would hit me when I thought I was gonna start crying, and he said he would never be that kind of person, and he would never partake in something like that. Infact, I think that's why he wanted me to finally talk about relationships with males (this past summmer), so he could learn what to not ever be like around me.
Only a small part of me cares anyways. I kinda don't really. I never really do. Anything is usually alright. Plus, i hate myself anyways, and I'm pathetic and sick and ugly and disgusting already. So it's no big loss whatever happens. Ever.
>>>>I didn't mean for it to look like I'm being insensitive or cold about your situation. Maybe I've mistaken the meanings of some of things you've written and I'm really sorry if I have.
Please don't ever apoligize to me. ((k)) It would take a hell of alot for me to ever think I derserve one -- and this definately isn't one of those times. Saying something tough isn't wrong. I can tell it wasn't said with malice or bad intentions.
>>>>>>>I think since I’ve been treated so badly by guys in the past ... it makes me extra suspicious of guys and their intentions.
I don't have a good track record myself. I'm really sorry that happened to you. Such an isolating, devastating thing :'( ((((((K)))))) I understand. And of course you are suspicious. I'm always on-edge myself. But worst. I'm always expecting the worst. ANd give up, when I sense it. Become resigned to it. It's like paralysis. And it's bad cause it's like auto-pilot now -- hard to know it's happening. And sometimes I get really overcome by the idea that it's better to just give, than to be taken from. Because that's worse than anything :"( But he has not been aggressive. And I've done neither. ANd so I have to try and trust. Or I'll go mad. I *need* this to work out. I *need* ideas proved wrong. I need to know I don't destroy everyone I come in contact with. I need things to go back to regular, without me hurting him as a person, or killing him as a professional. This trust just has to be right.
Don't say sorry - I know you're a friend.
blove EL
Posted by widget on February 6, 2007, at 7:39:25
In reply to Re: sorry E (loooong) » Karolina, posted by ElaineM on February 5, 2007, at 23:56:32
To Elaine, I, too, see some red flags here. Believe me, it would be very tempting if my therapist treated me like your's does. I have NO idea how he really feels about me and it drives me crazy. So, if this happened in my situation, I don't know what I'd do but I would be very intrigued. I will admit to jealousy on my part but not in that I would take this from you. But, I am so confused at this point, that such admissions on my therapist's part might send me over the edge. Especially the part about him being jealous if you had a date with another. It would be better for HIM if he worked on these feelings with another therapist, not with you. You are the patient and the most vulnerable. He needs to take care of you by being the grown-up and the therapist. Who knows what the right answer is but be careful! I relate so much to what you write and feel a great empathy for you. Good luck. You are definitely NOT alone.
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 6, 2007, at 21:17:51
In reply to The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 22:36:05
Hi Elaine,
I just got a little burst of energy started around 3pm and I'm gonna ride it until I crash. You know. don't get so many good energy days that I can waste.Pink roses, and a man that cares enough for you and for himself that he takes a very very brave step and "confesses".
I think you are an amazing person, and you deserve to be loved. Step back and think about it-- you have told this man and showed this man so many of your scary vulnerabilities and he just wants more from you. You HAVE done a lot to stay committed to this relationship, even when it crosses the line from therapy to social work to courtship to YOU providing therapy and back again.
Are you a little proud of the work that you have done together? Can you ride that wave of positive feeling and take the next big step? you know what it is...
But I also understand that this stuff is a process. I know that your body health right now is really holding you back, and insofar as your T acts as a social worker/case manager/devoted friend, I think you're right- he's not a bad guy. He's helping you in many ways. And you are amazing, because you are able to accept the help, even as you try to resist it because you have a negative self-image and are ashamed of your health situation some days
you have some special love IN you, and I can tell that one of your greatest strengths is your ability to support others and take them seriously.
You deserve pink roses and more :)
-Ll
Posted by ElaineM on February 7, 2007, at 19:48:20
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update » ElaineM, posted by philyra on February 5, 2007, at 14:34:13
>>>>>I wonder if a part of your T actually really wants you to encourage him to increase his sessions and do the work that he needs to do around his feelings and conduct toward you.
I don't know. But he has said he started, and continued, to go because it was important to me. He hasn't told me if he's decided about increasing yet. So I don't know. I've pushed for the increased frequency even before his T suggested it, so maybe he will. I'll have to see. But maybe it's true that it's easier for him to do all this if it's in response to a request, and not from a need within himself - less threatening somehow. I'm just guessing here though.
We have talked about how difficult it is for him to officially switch sides. Be in the patient's chair when he's with his therapist. He's not used to be the one exposing themself. Maybe it was easier to do it with me first, cause I was only a friend and not someone above him. Not sure.
>>>> think you're serving some pretty big needs for him in terms of his journey...Maybe this is the case with all therapeutic relationships, it's just a difference of boundaries...
Sounds like Jung or something.
I just want to end up helping more than I hurt.
thanks for the words Philyra.
blove El
Posted by ElaineM on February 7, 2007, at 19:50:49
In reply to Re: sorry E (loooong), posted by widget on February 6, 2007, at 7:39:25
Thanks for writing Widget.
>>>>Believe me, it would be very tempting if my therapist treated me like your's does.
That's really honest of you. I don't know, I suppose I could feel differently if his character was different. If he had different actions I may have had different reactions. Or maybe even if he started being this way from the beginning. But the change from before and now was too big, and was too disturbing. It's hard for me to talk about this part. It started coming up for me around the fall, but it was (is?) upsetting that he seemed so neutral before (somewhat mentor-ish, or almost priest-like) -- and that's why I was sent to him. To experience a safe male (instead of only safe females). ANd then when it changed, when the connotations sank in, when he would speak as though I was his child one meeting, then switch to talking about the "other stuff" a few later, it was driving me crazy. Really. He didn't know he was doing that, but still. I was really unstabilized because of that. I've pushed it away since then, and try to forget, but it's still upsetting when my thoughts turn that way. But maybe it all would've been different if he'd been this way when I was a new patient. I don't think so, but I'll never know.
>>>>>I will admit to jealousy on my part but not in that I would take this from you.
I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But I know that alot of clients can feel frustrated by boundaries. [Like, I'd love to be able to hang out with my old (female) T. Not in a "mother" way, but maybe as a "cool aunt" way.] I know now that the concept of boundaries became a part of all the helping professions for a reason. It hurts when LadyT's emails to me are SO different, and SOOOO much shorter than T's now. But I understand why she has to be like that -- especially since I'm not even her client anymore. The sh*tty thing is, I didn't even notice her boundaries before (when I was with her). They are only glaring in relation.
>>>>>>It would be better for HIM if he worked on these feelings with another therapist, not with you.
He has been with one for a little while now - and just started talking about "us". I'm so relieved and grateful. I have high hopes. But I think the "worst" is over now.
I'm trying to be careful. THanks for the support. Stay strong yourself.
blove, El
Posted by widget on February 7, 2007, at 21:08:04
In reply to The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by ElaineM on February 2, 2007, at 22:36:05
Dear Elaine, This is a big deal, no doubt. You have become the therapist and, unfortunately, your therapist is meeting some of his own needs via you. It would be quite confusing. It is good that he is talking to someone about what is going on with him. But, how about you? Is there another therapist to help you? Since this has become more of a romantic relationship, you might feel better talking to a more neutral party. No judgement; I do not know that I would have been able to resist such special treatment. I have such strong feelings for my psychiatrist and I am constantly pushing his boundaries. I don't know what would happen if I was successful. I cannot imagine as he seems impervious to my attempts to sway him. I probably should not have said I was jealous of you; you are obviously wrestling with this big time. You are undoubtably right that you would not wish this upon any other woman. I need to remember that especially when I meet with him tomorrow. I know that he is "safe" for better or worse, though, and I still cannot help pursuing him, rather like Wiley Coyote and the Road Runner. If I actually "caught" him, I don't know what I would do.
Posted by ElaineM on February 7, 2007, at 22:09:22
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update » ElaineM, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 6, 2007, at 21:17:51
>>>>>and you deserve to be loved.
Thank you for the compliment. I don't think I need love, but I guess "need" and "deserve" are different things huh? I need common courteousy and a bit of respect and equality - I really think that's all. And I think I deserve those things cause I'm alive. But I don't deserve love. The only ones who loved me are dead. And no one will love me again -- I don't expect or hope for it. So I'm okay with that. Plus, T doesn't love *me* - he loves Ex's. I'm just around.
>>>>>>>Are you a little proud of the work that you have done together?
I'm proud I've stayed. Never stayed this long with a T before. I'm proud I never slipped and revealed his name. Cause now everything is gonna work out. I'm proud he is doing hard stuff.
>>>>>>>Can you ride that wave of positive feeling and take the next big step? ...
No :( Too much. Too much stuff in my head. I don't want more change than T's improvement right now. I can't do more.
>>>>>>But I also understand that this stuff is a process.thank you for understanding :')
>>>>>>I think you're right- he's not a bad guy. He's helping you in many ways.
No, not bad -- just flawed, and mistake-making, and emotional, and a bit messed up like everyone else. No excuse - but true regardless.
>>>>>>>And you are amazing, because you are able to accept the help,
I never thought of it that way. I don't like needing help -- it means suffering and letdown when it doesn't come. I don't like taking it -- it means I'm weak. But sometimes you have to either ask for/take help, or get ready to die. Does it count if you only ask/take when you're desperate? I wouldn't do either if it wasn't combined with desperation. I would do anything if I was desperate enough.
If his name and title and efforts result in me getting proper treatment and (please god) relief then he can have me. I'd give myself to him. He could have me forever. I'd be whatever he wanted -- best friend...whatever. All I want is to be better. I want my old health back. Why did this happen to me? I thought the worst was over... it started again. :'( I'm lucky I kinda like a little pain cause I wouldn't have been able to take this past year. Now my body is as ruined as my mind. I'm glad I hate myself or I'd be sadder that the future looked so bad. I just don't want to suffer forever, with no end in sight :'( ....k, gotta stop...gonna have a cry-baby fest...>>>>>>you have some special love IN you, and I can tell that one of your greatest strengths is your ability to support others and take them seriously.
I love helping others - makes me feel a little better about myself. Thank you for saying such nice things.
I do love pink roses. I love pink everything. [But I've been good. Used to only be able to wear pink (white and black). Cause I figured people would think I was a girl, and not so ugly, and they wouldn't want to hurt me or make fun of my flaws. ANd I think males would see pink and remember I'm female and maybe be nicer or not insult how I look (or notice BDD-part). But even LadyT said I should work at wearing other colors. ANd T now. So I've been good with wearing more - sometimes teal, red, light blue. Can't wear other colors yet. anyhoo...]
You have a knack for writing soothing posts -- I hope their's someone who does the same for you. (((((LL)))))) Sorry I'm down today. Sometimes my mood control is like doing chin-ups. A few days will be good and I'll seem great, the next few I'll just be dangling below the bar holding on white-knuckled, seeming OK-ish. And after that my arms give out, and the sadness (and all the rest comes) and I just collapse onto the ground below and lay there till my arms have recooped enough to hang on a bit more. (and it's pretty impossible to convince myself I'm fine, when I'm at that level)
Sorry, I hope I didn't snuff out any of your good spirits.
thanks for being a friend :')
blove El
Posted by ElaineM on February 7, 2007, at 23:00:41
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update, posted by widget on February 7, 2007, at 21:08:04
>>>>>>>But, how about you? Is there another therapist to help you?
I've confided in several other different types of "helping professionals". The responses varied. Two, I had to stop seeing cause I graduated. One told me I kinda didn't want to talk to her about it (she couldn't hear it), and that I wasn't an appropriate candidate to meet with anyone else there. ANd one heard everything but said that her agency was full with a huge wait-list. Finally told (in a way) my old T. But because I'm not eligible to be a client, she can only see me a few times a year (though she's supportive when she has time, over email). It's very hard to find a balance between saying enough so that I don't have to deal with the confusion alone, but censored enough that I don't give away his identity. And that's HARD where I am. So that's the long and short of that question ;-)
>>>>>>I have such strong feelings for my psychiatrist and I am constantly pushing his boundaries.
That's entirely normal. (just as, NOT having such an intense reacton, is also normal) But I've learned it can be common.
>>>>>>...I probably should not have said I was jealous of you; you are obviously wrestling with this big time.
Not at all. I *am* wrestling with this, but always say what you're thinking (at least to me) :) Infact, I had also felt that I worded my post too much like a "warning/order", or something like that, and I worried that it may seem to invalidate or condemn the feelings you have for your pdoc -- which wasn't my intention.....So no worries all around.
>>>>>>>You are undoubtably right that you would not wish this upon any other woman.
I wouldn't wish all the feelings and thoughts, confusion and ambivalence and isolation, that have sprung from this, on another man or woman -- that's all. [not to say I don't get positive stuff from T too]
>>>>>>>I know that he is "safe" for better or worse, though, and I still cannot help pursuing him, rather like Wiley Coyote and the Road Runner. If I actually "caught" him, I don't know what I would do.
That's okay. It's your "job" to describe your feelings and thoughts as best you can. And it's his job to remain "impervious to your attempts" at "catching" him. He must be really experienced, and care about your psychological wellbeing alot to protect you that way. :') It sounds like you have a good T Widget.
blove, El
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 7, 2007, at 23:05:55
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update » Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by ElaineM on February 7, 2007, at 22:09:22
nah, you don't snuff out my good spirits.
my swirling mess of neurotransmitters did a fine job of that.
oh well. bedtime soon, I hope.
you deserve to be loved, and you ARE loved. I love you anyways. I think you're very special, and dear to my heart. I wish I could be closer to you in real life, 'cause I'd be a good friend. We can sit and have cry-baby fests together and I can teach you the joys of kiwi-lime green and ORANGE.
it would be groovy. Do you think you'd feel well enough to go to babble-fest in San Diego?
That might be a fun trip. I'd even give you all the green m&ms. That's how much you mean to me.
you keep up your chin-ups. hard work.no cheating by standing on a chair.
health is important. you've got some great folks caring for you, and maybe a flawed one or two also. But we care, and we want the best for you.
((((Elaine))))
Posted by ElaineM on February 8, 2007, at 15:49:32
In reply to Re: The Next big Step :-) = update » ElaineM, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 7, 2007, at 23:05:55
THanks LL. Not as desperately low today.
>>>>>>Do you think you'd feel well enough to go to babble-fest in San Diego?
I couldn't. Too physically difficult. Too far -- too financially difficult ;-)
Babble fest is the APA convention? How far ahead are they planned? If next one was somewhere a touch closer...
THough I don't know if I could ever meet any of you. The dumbest thing I'd be worried about (glaring proof of my psychological un-health) is that I'd be too ugly to show myself to you all. That you'd *see* me, and then never want to type to me anymore. And also that someone would look at me and think, Ya sure you were anorexic. Petty and stupid huh.
I'd love to have images to put to everyone's names though. Let me know if another random, roving mini Babble-meet is ever in the works though.Oh well. I still think you're a good friend anyways - even if I never meet you.
(((((LL)))))) You take care too.
blove, EL
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 8, 2007, at 16:37:03
In reply to face to face » Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by ElaineM on February 8, 2007, at 15:49:32
> THanks LL. Not as desperately low today.
oh good!
>
> >>>>>>Do you think you'd feel well enough to go to babble-fest in San Diego?
>
> I couldn't. Too physically difficult. Too far -- too financially difficult ;-)
>too bad :(
> Babble fest is the APA convention? How far ahead are they planned? If next one was somewhere a touch closer...
>
I dunno. have to ask the world wide web I spose> THough I don't know if I could ever meet any of you. The dumbest thing I'd be worried about (glaring proof of my psychological un-health) is that I'd be too ugly to show myself to you all. That you'd *see* me, and then never want to type to me anymore. And also that someone would look at me and think, Ya sure you were anorexic. Petty and stupid huh.
hmm. perhaps you should talk to a therapist about these issues. your self-loathing is definitely WAY WAY out of control. I'm sure you know that though. Part of feeling better about yourself is practicing positive self-affirmations in your head. things like-
I Enjoy my earlobes.
I'm an adult and I'm taking the responsibility for my own health, including asking for help when things get too complicated.
I'm going to go to the nearest babble party, even if I have to meet new people. even if I doubt myself. (I know that I doubted myself VERY much the first time I ever met a babbler. But we had a very nice time together, and I even ended up inviting SatinDoll to stay at my place a little while later. Of course I was scared out of my poor wits to meet Dr. Bob, but Clearskies was really sweet, and I felt like I could certainly chat plenty with her and SatinDoll, even if I felt weird about meeting Dr. Bob and whoever else showed up. I ended up meeting several new people, and found them all to be very fun, very cool people. We had lots in common, kind of like on the first day of school after summer vacation. excited to see old friends but wondering if you'll make the right impression... you know?)
> I'd love to have images to put to everyone's names though. Let me know if another random, roving mini Babble-meet is ever in the works though.I wanna go too! I think we should just buy an RV and random babblers can drive it all around the country and have tailgate babble parties. what do you think?
>
> Oh well. I still think you're a good friend anyways - even if I never meet you.likewise
>
> (((((LL)))))) You take care too.
> blove, ELElaine, I've met some very ugly people in my life. I always find something beautiful about them, if they are indeed beautiful on the inside it cannot help but show itself after a few minutes of conversation. You have shown yourself to have a lot of inner beauty and funny smarts too. So, I don't care how far you deviate from whatever sick beauty ideal the tabloids are promoting these days- you are strikingly beautiful and your outsides cannot change that ONE bit.
I've got some crushingly bad self-esteem somedays too. Actually for my first 21 years on this Earth. But I've been working really really hard on it. Most of it comes from being far away from my family. From being with a guy who is confident in his ability to be a better person, and confident in his love for me, when my love for myself wanes. It really helps to have someone who loves me unconditionally. Too bad I had to wait 21 years. :(
Oh. I guess it's not unconditional. The love wanes somewhat when retail-therapy lurpsie decides to amass some excess charges and forgets to pay her bills. oopsie.
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