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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 53 to 77 of 106. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 13:42:51
In reply to Re: As could be expected., posted by Frida on June 18, 2006, at 13:26:43
Well, in his defense, I was pretty cold and matter of fact when I talked to him. It was the only way I could be sure of keeping control. He was matching my tone, I guess.
Not owning up... Well, he tends to be defensive. But a lot of times, he softens and owns up to his part of things over time.
It seemed easy to him. It seemed like he didn't care. But I suspect at some level it must have been difficult for him to hear these things from someone who's been so attached for years. I'm guessing his defenses were way up.
For some reason, I'm not really angry any more. Just sad that things have gotten to this point. And that he didn't make better, kinder, choices.
Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 13:44:22
In reply to Re: As could be expected. » Dinah, posted by fairywings on June 18, 2006, at 12:57:27
I'm thinking that's my plan. Right now the idea of not seeing him makes me frantic. But if I fool myself by just coming up with reasons not to see him and stretching the time between sessions, and I make sure I'm medicated until the pain lessens, eventually I'll be ok.
At least I hope so.
Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 13:49:47
In reply to Re: As could be expected., posted by Poet on June 18, 2006, at 12:53:43
It would devastate me to be terminated at this point, with the attachment still so strong. Even now, I'm not sure I could make it through that.
I never thought this would happen or that my therapy life would take this turn. I was the forever therapy client.
I do this thing where I emotionally divorce. There's a buildup to it, but when it happens it happens fairly quickly. I'm hoping it will happen here. That one day I'll look at him and I won't see my therapist mommy. I'll just see this self indulgent man who is really absurd and not worth distressing myself over. That's what happened with my mother. One day she was screaming at me, something awful about my not being her daughter any more or something. And pow. Instead of being upset like usual, I just wanted to laugh at this redfaced bizarre woman screeching like an idiot.
I want that to happen here. Then nothing about him will hurt me again.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 18, 2006, at 15:01:01
In reply to Re: As could be expected. » Frida, posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 13:42:51
> Well, in his defense, I was pretty cold and matter of fact when I talked to him. It was the only way I could be sure of keeping control. He was matching my tone, I guess.
That's not the way it's supposed to be. You can be any way that you are, but the T is supposed to be compassionate and gentle with your feelings. NOT defensive about them.
I'm not saying that T's have to be perfectly in control of their responses at all times. That's too much to ask. But most of the time. Because T's DO hear things that in another setting might make them feel hurt, angry, defensive, criticized, etc. If a T cannot handle that, then they are not prepared to do therapy.
But that conversation should have been all about your feelings about the issue and what it means to you. And it's not a stretch to feel compassion for your hurt and anger. Certainly someone who's known you for that long ought to be able to feel and express that.
I'm glad you kept the appt. and expressed yourself about it. I hope that in the coming weeks you find support and caring from many places. You'll find it here, I'm sure, and I'll try to keep my reactions about your T in check.
((((Dinah))))gg
Posted by fairywings on June 18, 2006, at 15:59:59
In reply to Re: As could be expected. » fairywings, posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 13:44:22
> I'm thinking that's my plan. Right now the idea of not seeing him makes me frantic.
I would feel the same way....and I haven't seen my T nearly as long.
>>But if I fool myself by just coming up with reasons not to see him and stretching the time between sessions, and I make sure I'm medicated until the pain lessens,
That's what I'd do too. Any chance you can get out of town, and do something, or see someone you've been dying to see? Disney with your son, a dear friend who'd understand and keep you sane?
eventually I'll be ok.
I sure hope so too. I know it won't be easy.
fw
Posted by fallsfall on June 18, 2006, at 16:46:59
In reply to Re: As could be expected. ? Poet, posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 13:49:47
I'm sorry. Forever therapy did sound really nice.
You can come visit me!
Let me know how I can help.
Love,
Falls
Posted by Tamar on June 18, 2006, at 17:32:43
In reply to As could be expected., posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 12:28:23
> He said it wasn't a job. Just a two month assignment. He said it wasn't my business if he took a two month assignment, and I agreed but insisted it was my business to be informed of how said assignment would affect my therapy.
I say to-may-to, you say to-mah-to… Job or assignment, you are right. What matters to you is how it affects your therapy. Surely he can understand that.
> He said it was my choice what to do about moving. I agreed but insisted that I had the right to all information when making my choice. And that it was very bad of him to decide for me that this wasn't important and not to tell me. Not just thoughtless or careless of my feelings and need for security as usual. But bad. I made a choice that was bad enough before, but now it was a choice made for nothing.
I think ‘bad’ is apt, because as you were making the decision he was assuring you that your therapy would be more stable.
> Thursday he told me he could only see clients at night and *maybe* at lunch. Today he said he was sure he could see me at lunch, so I was upset about nothing. It wouldn't be like last time. I suggested to him that if he was certain he could tell me each Sunday what day and time he could see me that week, that he back that up by promising to give me a free session if he couldn't make that time because of work. When he was silent, I noted that he was sure enough to risk my pain, but not sure enough to risk his money. I then declined the second appointment during the week, because I didn't want to be waiting for the phone to ring like a middle school girl waiting for a call from a guy. He said that I could make that choice if I wished.
Oh dear. He got that so wrong. And yet, it really does sound as if he hasn’t managed to organise things to guarantee that he can see you during the week. I would think that when he takes an ‘assignment’ he should make his existing clients part of the negotiations. He should be able to say, “I need to be able to offer a longstanding client a regular Wednesday lunchtime appointment,” and make sure his employers are willing to agree to that. It’s not a lot to ask.
> When I said that he encouraged me to stay, he replied that it wasn't because he wanted me to stay, but because I seemed upset at the thought of leaving. Wow. Thanks.
Grrrr. It seems to me that you were upset at the thought of leaving a relationship with him that you were both fighting to repair, and he encouraged you to stay by indicting that he was willing to do his part to repair it. But if he was misleading you, deliberately or unintentionally, he needs to take responsibility for that. It’s not as simple as saying you seemed upset at the thought of leaving.
> He wanted to know if I intended to continue therapy. I told him I'd like to continue to see him long enough to have my love and hate for him turn to indifference. He said he didn't know if he was willing to continue therapy under those circumstances. I told him that he had hurt me enough already. Was he going to hurt me more by abandoning and rejecting and terminating me while I still felt an attachment to him? Then I said some more things that I probably can't repeat here under Dr. Bob's rules.
Well, I suppose it’s a reasonable enough goal. Why shouldn’t you want to work with him on diminishing your attachment? What’s his problem with that? Why isn’t he willing to do therapy under those circumstances?
> As it stands now, I have an engagement next Sunday, so we have an appointment for two Sundays from now. I'll make sure to stay at my maximum Risperdal dose. And I'll try to make it work while staying at home with my husband and son. If I don't feel like I can do this, I'll have to consider what to do next.
>
> He has disappointed me greatly.Yes. Absolutely. He doesn’t like criticism much, does he? I suspect it’s because he knows you’re right. And yet, you say that eventually he’s usually prepared to admit that he might be wrong. I hope he gets to that point PDQ.
> All the time he kept everything in that neutral language. He didn't hurt me, I felt hurt. Stuff like that. Towards the end he said that he thought he had told me, that he believed me when I said he hadn't, and that if he hadn't told me as he thought he had then that was negligent and bad. After he repeated that a few times, I told him that since he believed me when I said we'd never discussed this, he should drop the conditional "if" and just say that not telling me was negligent and bad. And he did.
>
> I just don't know...I’m so sorry Dinah. I hope the next two weeks are bearable.
Posted by happyflower on June 18, 2006, at 17:43:54
In reply to As could be expected., posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 12:28:23
Man, what is wrong with your T? This is not what I expected from him at all. It seems like his personal life and professional life must be struggling, to act so unresponsible. There is no excuse for him this time.
You know I think it is questionable on how he would schdeule the 2nd appointment, by you waiting until the last minute for when and sometimes if. This seems unprofressional to me in the least. Part of therapy is being able to count on your appointments accuring with regular frequentcy that you can count on. He should in the very least tell you when the 2nd appointment will be on the Sunday of the week you see him. Heck for me it seems like you should know at least a week ahead of time.
I just don't know what to say, because it is just sad that this is happening. I wonder how many clients he has lost this year due to his behavior, maybe that is why he needed more money for the 2nd job. You know for anyone else who takes on a 2nd job, the 1st emoployer doesn't mind as long as it doesn't interfer with your main job. Well he isn't putting his main job first and allowing the 2nd job to affect his main job in a negative way.
Have you ever thought about writing him a heart felt letter and telling him everything? So he can't interupt you and you can say things in the way you want? This is something I would try as a last resort. Maybe he can "listen" without getting so defensive in a way that hurts you. I think anyone can get a little defensive when they are being told that they aren't doing a good job. But in a letter he would have time to think about what you have said, and get over his emotions of guilt and maybe be the T he can be for you.
As far as how do you let go if you deceide to . I don't know, I don't handle goodbyes very well, I tend to screw up the relationship before the departure so it will hurt less. But it usually hurts me more. Maybe like Fairywings said, do something special with your son instead. I know my kids have been getting less of me since i have been in therapy. Mabye they are gettinga better me, but they do have less time with me.
Dinah, what other stuff did you say to him that you think Dr. Bob wouldn't approve of? You don't have to say or just hint at what the subject was.
Maybe you both need to take a separation from each other, like a month or so. I think he needs some therapy at the momement. Maybe he doesn't since he has been doing it for so long , like my T , but I think they do need it from time to time. (((((Dinah)))) Please keep posting , we are here for you.
Hugs,
Happyflower
Posted by tryingtobewise on June 18, 2006, at 19:11:38
In reply to Sh*t faced B*STARD, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2006, at 19:16:22
Dinah - I'm so sorry this has happened to you. What if you didn't go through the whole painful termination process and just stopped going? We all assume that "Termination" has to be this big deal and lengthy/therapeutically important process. Really, it is ok to just stop going.
I know therapy with this guy has been very beneficial to you in the past. But it sounds like it is far more pain than gain at this point and it is ok to let it go. Get a "transitory therapist" if it helps...I'm sure you won't get as attached so it would be a safe move.
As I've mentioned before on this board I work for a T and I know it happens often, people just terminate for reasons that are purely their own. It will not mean all your past therapy has been a waste, or ended unsucessfully, or anything like that.
Your dread of and fear of termination is so great I think you might feel better without that looming over your head.
Kim
Posted by annierose on June 18, 2006, at 19:59:51
In reply to (((((Dinah))))) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on June 18, 2006, at 17:32:43
I just keep wondering, what the fear is. My T tells me that my fear (sometimes) is a reaction to a distant memory, that what I'm really afraid of, well that has already happened.
This seems like an obvious discussion your T should be working through with you, why you stayed in town, why he is considered first, what do you think you'll lose if you lose him? what does he give you?
I want you to be happy. You seemed to be clinging onto a sinking ship, but you see a life raft just in the distance, you know you should take a leap of faith ... you're not sure you can swim the distance to the raft, there's an inner struggle going on internally, but you know the future is with the life raft. TAKE THE CHANCE! We know where the sinking ship is heading.
I love you Dinah. This doesn't sound like a healthy theraputic relationship any longer.
Posted by Frida on June 19, 2006, at 1:11:40
In reply to Re: (((((Dinah))))), posted by annierose on June 18, 2006, at 19:59:51
Dear Dinah,
This is so painful, all you've shared, all that has happened. He's taking things personally, getting defensive, as if he weren't your T, he is hurting you over and over.. :-(
After 10 years, I so agree with GG and all the others..he knows you well enough to know how much this is hurting you and how hard you were trying to repair this relationship and how much stability and safety mean to you...
I think I would write him a letter, I would just be totally honest and tell him how much I'm hurting and all I am feeling. A letter would give him time to think and feel, instead of acting defensively.
No matter what you decide..I think that a letter at least would give you the relief of knowing you said everything and there weren't unsaid things between youThis shouldn't be happening :-(
I am so sorry
Frida
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
In reply to Re: (((((Dinah))))), posted by annierose on June 18, 2006, at 19:59:51
of so many things.
One of which is that I've been unfair to him. Today really wasn't all that bad. It felt sort of adversarial, but I came in full of anger, however coldly expressed. Some of it might have reflected back to me.
I was playing with my iPod today and found the recordings I've made of his voicemails over the years. And the relaxation tape.
I was filled with the desire to call and take everything back. To hope he can forgive me like he's forgiven me so many times before.
He really does have many fine and useful qualities. And it's only been the last eight months that he's been hurting me. D*mn Katrina.
I think I'm more scared of getting over him than I am of being hurt by him.
Maybe it's my fault I hurt. Maybe my expectations are unrealistic. In fact I know they are. I'm too needy.
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:32:22
In reply to Re: As could be expected., posted by happyflower on June 18, 2006, at 17:43:54
> Dinah, what other stuff did you say to him that you think Dr. Bob wouldn't approve of?
I threatened to kill myself if he terminated me. I guess that was unfair, although I saw it at the time as answering a threat with a threat. And one that I did mean. I respond very strongly to threats to my therapy.
It would have been horribly difficult to leave him and move on with my life, had he told me about this and I insisted on moving. But to be terminated... I don't know if I could live with being terminated. I hate that word, yet it's the only one that seems equal to the devastation involved.
It's so weird to feel so strongly about someone.
Posted by Frida on June 19, 2006, at 1:36:18
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
Dear Dinah
I hear your fear..but you are not too needy. He's your therapist. He promised to fight for this, to be there for you. He's your T and has a commitment to you...
and he shouldn't be hurting you.. :-(
My T has expressed frustration at me, has sometimes been defensive, but the times it happened we talked about it deeply and i expressed how hurt I was and she validated my feelings and explained why she had reacted a certain way and then did her best to avoid hurting my feelings. I did go through hard phases with her and it was worth it.
10 years is a long time, but he needs to know that he's been hurting you. Have you told him how much he's been hurting you and how much his actions have been affecting you? I think he is acting so defensively and not seeing the real issue here..and his commitment to you..and the pain he's causing you.
and just how hard you've been trying to make this work.I understand about your fears of not being fair. Sometimes it is hard to explain something only with written words,but he's your T...and he shouldn't be hurting you...
and he should be able to stop being so defensive and try to help you with this hurt. Even if he thinks he didn't hurt you. You are feeling hurt and that is what matters. In T, your feelings are the ones that matter. He should be focusing on them...I would like to shout at him: Can't you see how deeply Dinah is hurting????
You are not too needy...this truly shouldn't be this way..
sending you support,
Frida
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:57:37
In reply to Re: I'm afraid, posted by Frida on June 19, 2006, at 1:36:18
I've been very open with how he's made me feel. I'm not sure how much he took it in, or how much weight he gives it. But I've pretty much told him everything that entered my mind. I even told him the names I called him, and about breaking the front door.
Today I was a bit measured and kept my cool, the better to convey my points. But I also at least told him about my feelings.
I just don't know how unreasonable I'm being.
I think fate handed me a lesson. I used to get rather impatient with the women who appeared to put up with just about anything with the comment "but I loooove him". And now I'm one of them.
Except I've started to wonder if I'm correct in thinking I'm putting up with a lot.
Posted by Tamar on June 19, 2006, at 5:51:27
In reply to Re: I'm afraid » Frida, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:57:37
> I think fate handed me a lesson. I used to get rather impatient with the women who appeared to put up with just about anything with the comment "but I loooove him". And now I'm one of them.
>
> Except I've started to wonder if I'm correct in thinking I'm putting up with a lot.That's what those women think too. They don't think they're putting up with a lot. It can't really be as bad as they think. It can't really be as bad as everyone else says. Eventually they lose the self esteem to walk away.
It is possible for those relationships to change. But the man has to be prepared to take a long hard look at his behaviour. And then he has to make a concerted effort to do things differently. And he can't usually do it on his own: he needs therapy.
I think your therapist needs therapy.
Just my two cents.
Tamar
Posted by AuntieMel on June 19, 2006, at 9:21:23
In reply to Re: I'm afraid » Frida, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:57:37
My ex-hubby is a Vietnam vet. Being over there changed him. He's still a nice guy, and we get along as friends, but he just isn't the same person he was before he went.Try as hard as we both wanted to, we just couldn't make it work. That doesn't mean I'm less a person, or he is either. It just means we can't do "us" anymore. Our expectations had changed, what we wanted and needed from each other, and what we could give to each other had changed. And it couldn't change back.
Maybe Katrina is your Vietnam.
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 19, 2006, at 9:47:47
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
Dinah,
Don't you dare try to take it back! You said what you needed to say. For 24 hours now I've been trying to figure out what to write to you. I'm fresh out of wisdom!
Hang in there. We are HERE for you. You can and will get over him. I still think you need a spa trip--right about the time of your next Sunday appointment!
HUGS,
MidnightBlue
Posted by fallsfall on June 19, 2006, at 14:02:27
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
> of so many things.
>
> One of which is that I've been unfair to him. Today really wasn't all that bad. It felt sort of adversarial, but I came in full of anger, however coldly expressed. Some of it might have reflected back to me.
>*** Did you see him again today?
> I was playing with my iPod today and found the recordings I've made of his voicemails over the years. And the relaxation tape.
>
> I was filled with the desire to call and take everything back. To hope he can forgive me like he's forgiven me so many times before.
>
> He really does have many fine and useful qualities. And it's only been the last eight months that he's been hurting me. D*mn Katrina.*** Yes, he HAD some fine and useful qualities, and they were helpful to you in the past. But he is not helping you NOW. And you have given him plenty of time to figure out how to help you NOW. You can take the good things you learned. Leaving him now doesn't take away any of the past. But leaving him now would keep him from hurting you in the future. He has lost his fine and useful qualities in the present.
>
> I think I'm more scared of getting over him than I am of being hurt by him.
>
*** Yes, and this is your fear. But fears are not alway rational or justified. You proved during Katrina that you can survive without him. Can you take that experience and let it lessen your fear?> Maybe it's my fault I hurt. Maybe my expectations are unrealistic. In fact I know they are. I'm too needy.
*** No, you aren't too needy. Anymore than Daisy is too needy. Your expectations might be unrealistic, though - I think you should be looking for MORE than you have been getting.
It is expected that you will go back and forth on this. But you've been going back and forth for months. I think it is time to go forward.
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2006, at 14:57:22
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
Me too. So I can totally empathize. But you know what? Sometimes fear can be used as a powerful motivator. As can anger. Reflected or not, it is what you are feeling. And it is hugely justifiable.
Change is hard. Look at me...I wake up every day and wonder what the hell I think I'm doing. I look at my husband's fine and useful qualities. And this little voice says, "it wasn't so bad." But a louder voice says, "I'm tired of hurting."
Listen the the louder voice, Dinah. You can love someone and still leave them. You can appreciate them at their best and be sadly aware that you just can't take their worst. It is OK to save yourself, so I'm being told. You aren't too needy.
And I don't think it is unrealistic to expect that your therapist provide you with honest support and information. He is afraid of hurting you, you are afraid of being hurt...and yet it keeps happening. So I'm going to be presumptuous and say, "it is time to end the hurt." I'm guessing that you can drift into a friendship type, keep in touch relationship, just by where you've already drifted.
And I'm very aware that this is tremendously painful. I wish I could help more with that. But at some point you have to save yourself. And that might mean acute pain now (like chemotherapy) that prevents a long, drawn out death (like cancer). You deserve a life not filled with this drama. You deserve happiness.
Love and hugs,
Daisy
Posted by orchid on June 19, 2006, at 19:43:49
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
>
> He really does have many fine and useful qualities. And it's only been the last eight months that he's been hurting me. D*mn Katrina.
>
> I think I'm more scared of getting over him than I am of being hurt by him.
>I think you have been hurt over and over by this man, and you are left with feeling so much anger and hurt and bitterness about the time and money many many days. And I think I saw signs of it even before Katrina, when you felt many times like he is not really helping you all that much. But then, I remember you said since he was very laid back, taht suits you too, since you don't want someone who would push you around too much.
I think you have been hurt too much, and even if not for the hurt, I think he must have run out of his insights to you by now, that it will do you good to find a new T.
But I think you need to do it really really slowly. Take a time frame of year or so, or maybe even little more than a year, and then start to terminate very very slowly.
I think it is better to not continue for a long time with your current T - atleast not for years together. But I think if you take a year or perhaps even more and plan out your termination, and do it very gradually, it might be good.
And actually I found the part where you said you are more scared of getting over him very interesting. I feel perhaps your desire to protect him comes from some of your feelings about your dad who you always took care of. Maybe you are feeling that if you get over him, it will be like letting him down.
Posted by shrinking violet on June 19, 2006, at 22:10:42
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:13:16
In reply to ((((((((((Dinah))))))))))) I'm sorry this happened (nm) » Dinah, posted by shrinking violet on June 19, 2006, at 22:10:42
The anxiety was just too much. I called him this morning and left a message of apology for my behavior and begging him to forgive me. I did tell him that I meant a lot of what I said, but I apologized for the meaner stuff.
I rescheduled my engagement for this Sunday and asked for my regular time slot.
I feel like I've let everyone down. :(
I'm so weak.
I think... I think he's the only one who really knows part of me. The part that others rarely see. The part that surprises the people who know me. He may be the only human in the world who really knows, or has ever known, that aspect of myself and fully accepts it. The needy unreasonable demanding childish part of me. My husband has borne it occasionally, certainly, but he doesn't care for that part of me. And who can blame him. I think it surprises and scares Babblers. I try to keep it from my son, but he sees it from time to time and it scares him.
But my therapist not only accepts that part of me, but he even finds it valuable and worthwhile. He'll admit that it annoys him at times, but swears that that's because of what's going on in his life, not because I'm unacceptable.
I think that part of me is terrified of being alone, without anyone, if I lose my therapist. And on a very visceral level, is afraid of obliteration and annhilation without someone who recognizes it and accepts it.
So I think the fear is fear of death. If not on a whole systems or bodily level, then at least death of that part of me. Oddly enough, that part of me doesn't fear actual death, just symbolic annhilation.
I honestly think the only way to break free from him is to make contact an impossibility by moving. And I can't do that.
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 19, 2006, at 23:37:52
In reply to I'm embarassed to post, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:13:16
OH DINAH!
I really don't know what to say.........you are worth SO MUCH MORE than that! You are of value and worth to so many people....
I think you are shortchanging your husband, son, and many of us who would love you no matter what.
Hugs,
MidnightBlue
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:53:50
In reply to Re: I'm embarassed to post » Dinah, posted by MidnightBlue on June 19, 2006, at 23:37:52
I don't mean it as a complaint or criticism about the other people in my life. They're all wonderful.
I'm not too proud of that side of myself and I tend to cover it reasonably well most of the time. Obviously not all the time, as this thread will attest.
But it helps me to be able and *be* that part of me twice a week, and express myself to my therapist, who really is more than ordinarily good at it.
The two other therapists I recently visited were not at all accepting of that part of me and thought I should work to eradicate it or at least control it. Spoke of it as an unruly part of me that should have limits applied. It didn't really work out too well.
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