![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 8:04:30
Have any of you experienced a situation where your therapist had a countertransference reaction that lasted for a while (like 3-4 weeks) and in many significant ways wasn't able to be there for you or hear you? and got worse and worse until it was excruciatingly painful for you?
this has happened with my therapist and i was terribly hurt in the process. i know that countertransference is a normal happening in therapy relationships, and i'm actually feeling a little guilty about how angry and hurt i feel, like i should just understand that this happens sometimes and move on. it's happened one other time with her, about 14 months ago, where she had a countertransference issue with me that was intensely painful for me until she figured it out and pulled herself out of it. that time it also lasted several weeks.
i feel like she doesn't understand or is minimizing how much damage this recent one did to me, that i trust her much less now and feel very guarded, and very sad about the loss of trust that i feel. i feel like i am back in a place with her near the beginning of our relationship regarding trust. maybe even worse b/c i had developed so much trust in her and it feels broken. i feel like i don't know how this will ever be repaired. i WANT to repair it. but i don't know if i am capable. especially if she doesn't recognize to the degree that she hurt me. i think she would say she didn't hurt me, but that her actions caused me to feel hurt because of how they triggered me. is there a difference? to her, there is. to me, it's one and the same. am i wrong on this? please be honest. i don't want anyone to be on my side just b/c i am the client. i really want to know if i'm not seeing this correctly.
(what happened is that she cut off all in-between phone calls/check-ins. i had no access to her whatsoever except for our two scheduled times to talk. psychologically this just almost put me over the edge, more than the actual fact that i coudn't talk to her. and she didn't say that it would be temporary. she said it would be this way from now on. that it's too hard for her that we do therapy over the phone and this is the only way she can do it anymore. she needs the space in order to stay separate b/c she talks from home and things get too blurry for her. she didn't want the countertransference thing to happen again.
this is after two years of promising me that she would not leave, she will not leave me, over and over again. she would say she didn't leave me. but to me, this is leaving. it was an unlivable situation for me.)
in retrospect, the most incredibly painful part was that she said it was a permanent change. that i would never have her back again in the way that i needed her in order to feel safe. that was the trauma for me. and, i was in a very, very vulnerable place in my therapy with her when the countertransference started so was already feeling so much pain and needing her to "come back again" when she set the new boundaries. i can still feel the total shock inside when she did that. she was taking herself away from me at a time when i most needed her. and she wasn't going to ever come back. (except as i said with the two regularly scheduled phone calls, which is not coming back but staying just beyond reach. that's why it felt like torture. simply not bearable for me regarding safety with her. is that reasonable? could anyone here work with their therapist if there was no way to ever contact them in between sessions? if it was something that was available for 2+ years but then taken away?). i worked SO hard for these 2+ years to feel safe with her, to trust her, and she worked hard with me to earn that trust. it took so long. and it just blew up in my face, just like that. we have had a very close and meaningful and healing relationship. but it feels gone to me.
i desperately needed her to be a little bit more available but she wouldn't do it. i felt like she couldn't see or hear the pain i was in, and that for me, our relationship was on the verge of becoming beyond repair. (and lots of new therapy for me to get over it) It was frightening for me beyond words.
she has problems sometimes setting limits with others and with me and so she felt very strongly about keeping the limits she had set with me in order to get and keep herself in a place where she could be totally separate, and therefore an effective therapist. she acknowledged that she was putting her needs first but that there was no other way she could do this.
i understand her need for space except that i was in such intense pain while this was going on and as i said, she presented it as a permanent change and i had no say in it, zero sense of control. i felt her continuing to step back and step back and it was more than i could take. and yes i did tell her these things, in emails and scheduled phone calls, but she said she wasn't able to compromise. a couple of times i told her that i simply couldn't do this anymore, i was in too much pain. and she said she was completely here for me in the parameters she had set up but couldn't give more and she understood if it wouldn't work for me. this attitude also was terribly painful for me. it just wasn't her, it wasn't the therapist i knew.
finally she did, she agreed to compromise, she said check-in calls would be okay now, and now that i am so relieved, i am feeling how basically traumatic this was for me. it's a big word but that's how it feels. and such a big part of me is now closed off to her. i can feel the little kids in me wanting to hide at the thought of speaking to her. i only remember feeling this way at the very beginning of our relationship when i was just starting to try to trust her. (two years ago)
is my reaction valid? i am afraid she will downplay it and not take responsibility for what happened, that she will feel as if i was having my own reaction to her reaction (this is true) but that it's more to do with the past than with what she did. which may also be true but does that mean she wasn't responsible for how much pain i felt at her (very sudden) new boundaries, without even talking with me about how to handle them? i am trying to see her side of things in order to feel maybe less anger and more understanding, but i am just so angry and hurt about this. i feel like what she did was basically torturous to me.
i was in such a vulnerable place to begin with, b/c her countertransference had already been going on for a few weeks and i sensed that she was "gone." I already felt so alone and didn't understand what was happening and needed her more and more. Once she realized what had happened to her, she explained it to me, and then said she couldn't make herself available to me anymore in between scheduled calls.
sorry if i'm repeating myself.
what do you all feel about everything i've described? yes, i am going to send her a long email describing everything that went on with me and how it all made me feel. but how do i overcome the hurt that i feel about it? and am i justified in my feelings of anger towards her? is it "real" or is it all transference? and if it's transference, does it mean she didn't hurt me? i just think a therapist has to be very, very careful of how they handle their power, especially when the client is in a very vulnerable state. they can take themselves away in a way that is no less than re-traumatizing for the client. that's what happened with me. but is it her fault if she needed to change things to be an effective therapist with me?
i feel like SHE'S the one who had the countertransference, so why did i have to suffer so much for her issue? for her to get herself back again? is there another way this could have been handled given her needs and mine? i am so scared of her right now and that i will never be able to get over this enough to feel safe with her again.
okay i'll be quiet now. i will look forward to any responses or thoughts.
LG04p.s. i know that this is "the day after," so i am incredibly raw from this experience. will it soften with time? i am feeling a lot of pain just from what happened. how can this be repaired? what do i need to do? (that's the only part that's in my control, i can't control what she does or doesn't do).
Posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 8:16:55
In reply to countertransference in therapist LONG, posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 8:04:30
p.s. In a million years, i never thought i would feel this way about my therapist. i really feel terrified of her. so unsafe, and so distant. in some kind of shellshock from what happened. i don't want our relationship to end. i really don't. please help.
Posted by shrinking violet on March 21, 2005, at 8:53:26
In reply to p.s., posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 8:16:55
{{{{LG}}}}
I'm so sorry you're in so much pain. Your post...wow, it mirrors a lot of things that are happening with my T too, and my reactions have been very similar to yours (with a lot of the same questions). I am at work right now, so I am unable to write out the response you deserve, and I do want to "sit" with this a bit and then come back to it when I have the proper time and concentration. But in the meantime I just wanted to send you hugs and wishes for peace....
More soon...
Take care hon.
SV
Posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 9:31:04
In reply to countertransference in therapist LONG, posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 8:04:30
one more p.s.
the other piece of information i wanted to add is that i have this idealization transference with my therapist, which i am trying to let go of. it means that it's very hard for me when she is less than ideal. it is hard for me to accept her human-ness and weaknesses, i want her to perfect for many complex reasons. she also has this issue meaning that she has a hard time viewing herself as less than ideal also. so it's very hard for her to take in how much pain or hurt she can cause me and sometimes it's very hard for her to apologize. i think this also makes it hard for her to see how much power she really does have in this relationship.
we are just starting to deal with this idealization issue between us and how we fuel each other. it has potential for a lot of soul searching and a lot of healing. it's definitely something that i want to work on and obviously she is good for this b/c of how we feed in to each other and that we are both able to see it.
i'm adding this in b/c my question is, is this idealization transference causing me to take this in much harder than a person normally would if they didn't want to see their therapist as ideal? i am really trying to look at it from every angle and not just from my point of view. but i can't be objective. and i don't think she can be either. that's why i want to know what you all think.
thanks again.
LG04
Posted by Dinah on March 21, 2005, at 10:17:15
In reply to countertransference in therapist LONG, posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 8:04:30
I think post-termination issues aren't thought out well by therapists. And that sometimes they promise more than they can deliver with the very best intentions and out of caring for us.
She found that she had overextended herself and she tried to redraw boundaries that she was comfortable with, that she could maintain a relationship with you with while not losing her effectiveness as a therapist for you. Because if they feel overextended, they can't be good therapists.
Then when she saw how upset you were, her desire to be everything you need overtook her resolution to set boundaries that she felt comfortable with and she backed off.
That's my take on it at least.
I empathize with you. Boundary setting hurts like h*ll, and the boundary setter (defensively perhaps) never seems to realize that. Especially if it's a narrower boundary than was previously allowed. It's easier to set good boundaries right from the first than it is to establish them later.
But...
She was trying to tell you something, and I think for maximum relationship building you should try to listen. Perhaps if you are able to hear that she is having trouble with the current arrangement, and offer alternate suggestions or open a discussion of how to make things easier for her, it will keep her from feeling she needs to set boundaries again.
This may have to do with offering to pay her for her time between sessions. Or it may be recognizing that your calls are affecting her family life and asking if there are times that would be better than others. It may be finding other ways to soothe yourself between twice a week scheduled calls as much as possible.
This is a very valuable relationship for you, and for her as well from how it sounds. I think putting some time into helping her with the problems she's having will pay off over the long term.
It's not all countertransference. Some of it is just that she needs to set boundaries where they feel comfortable for her. Just as we all do in all relationships. And ouch. I've been on the receiving end of boundary setting a few times. It's enough to make you never ever ever want to ask for anything from anyone ever again. Which is not the healthiest reaction on my part.
Talk to her again, and try to find out what's going on with her. It's hard, I know, since she's your therapist. But some of those therapy rules need to change when the relationship changes as drastically as yours did when you moved. Help her some, and keep the relationship viable for her.
(Are you paying her for her time?)
Posted by Susan47 on March 21, 2005, at 11:34:36
In reply to one more p.s., posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 9:31:04
Your posts just sent me into such a paroxysm of tears don't feel bad about that though because it's my own issue but so much like yours... I don't know, I think you're lucky your T is telling you how she feels and the reasons she's not available... I guess my feelings drove my T crazy and eventually he just wasn't available but no reasons were ever given as to why.. he laid it on me, saying I asked him to terminate me.. which is true but when I asked him to take me back, he refused ... and that was very very damaging painful, hurtful, and because he's a man he would never ever discuss my effect on him, if I ever had one .... I phoned my ex-T's machine and yelled that he shouldn't have let me terminate, I HURT myself so much ... and of course now he'll probably have me cut off again ... a dishonest T is very damaging ... you're lucky in a way, you know ... in your posts I still hear hope that you and your therapist are going to work things out together ... she's still there for you, you know, she really is, but it's going to need more self-control from you to kind of deal in between times .. if you can talk about that issue directly, if she can tell you she cares still and she doesn't forget about you, if you can work out that you and she have an emotional connection that transcends the times you see her, that she does think about you at times she's not with you, if you can somehow maybe work something out where you believe she carries you in her heart in between visits and talks, I think that would help you tremendously.
Posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 12:02:17
In reply to Re: countertransference in therapist LONG » LG04, posted by Dinah on March 21, 2005, at 10:17:15
wow Dinah, what an interesting perspective. i really appreciate your point of view. and yes, it is always very painful for me when she sets boundaries. we know that's an issue between us, and esp. b/c it's hard for her to set them. i just felt this was so extreme and so sudden and and at such a vulnerable time for me and she didn't talk to me about how to deal with her new boundaries, what tools to use. she shell-shocked me.
she didn't totally back out of her boundaries. she still kept the main one, which is long calls between sessions. she says 5-15 minute check-in calls are okay. that's the boundary she opened up again. if she had said that from the beginning, it wouldn't have set off such panic and pain with me. it was the NO calls ever in between that totally did me in. it was taking away too much at once. but i know her, and if she wasn't okay to allow check-in calls, she wouldn't have done it. she kept her strict boundaries until she felt balanced again. she even worried about what would happen if i tried to call her for a check-in and couldn't get a hold of her, b/c she knows that if i'm in a really bad state, i will panic and think she is avoiding me on purpose. (pathetic, i know). she told me she has never ever screened my calls.
you are right that she overextended herself in this situation. but she still says she isn't leaving, that she is here for the duration. that she has worked our two weekly phone calls into her life. (i did offer to call her at her office and other things....we've talked about all the different alternatives. she prefers to be home though. also we have an 8-hour time difference so we are very limited in our choices.)
i am going back to visit where i was living for 2 months this summer, so of course i will see her twice a week while there. so it's weird b/c we haven't really terminated in the sense that we knew i'd be back over the summer and probably every single summer (and perhaps winter break too) until i die. (i am extremely attached to the country and have a zillion friends there and basically a very full and rich life there and if i were wealthy, i'd buy a house there and spend most of the year there.) so i don't know exactly what is going to happen. she is willing to let our relationship play itself out. for now, that's okay with me too.
yes, i do pay her, i pay her even more than i'd be paying if i was seeing her in person twice a week. (this was my idea to pay her that much; she was okay with $100 a month b/c i have an extremely tight budget. but next year i am going to get a bit of inheritance money so i wrote her a post-dated check that will amount to paying her even more than if i was seeing her in person)
i just wish she understood the affect that it had on me. i hate that she acts as if she didn't do anything to hurt me. it did hurt.
but, i hear everything that you said. i so appreciate your point of view. it will help me to hear her better. it has calmed me down. i still am so angry but at least i know that someone objectively doesn't think that what she did was horrible, that maybe my reaction has very little to do with the "real."
the question is, how responsible is a therapist to try not to trigger a client if she knows where her client's vulnerabilities are? and she knows that her client is in a terribly vulnerable place? i just feel like she wasn't responsible with the power differential that exists. i guess you feel differently.
i will re-read your post many times and see if i can take it in more.
Thanks so much Dinah,LG04
Posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 12:15:39
In reply to Re: one more p.s. » LG04, posted by Susan47 on March 21, 2005, at 11:34:36
that's AWFUL what your therapist did and totally, 100% unethical. i am so sorry that happened to you. there ARE good therapists out there. i also had a very emotionally abusive therapist who terminated me after i confronted him about something that was bothering me. it was my first therapist. it was devestating. i really understand.
>>if you can talk about that issue directly, if she can tell you she cares still and she doesn't forget about you, if you can work out that you and she have an emotional connection that transcends the times you see her, that she does think about you at times she's not with you, if you can somehow maybe work something out where you believe she carries you in her heart in between visits and talks, I think that would help you tremendously.>>
actually she tells me all the time that she carries me with her in her heart and in her head. i know she thinks about me a lot. she tells me. she will be reading a magazine and think about me or she'll wonder what i'm doing or she'll see something that reminds her of me. i know she really loves me. and she is very honest with me about her issues when they come up and i ask her about them. it is so helpful to me b/c otherwise i don't understand what is going on.
it took a long time for us to reach that point. i had to convince her that it would be helpful for me. then she tried it and saw that it was indeed very helpful to me. it helps me to understand where my reactions are coming from, or to not take personally something she is doing. it helps me to understand the relationship that i am in.
it also helped me to figure out the whole idealization transference issue. even she didn't see it. i was very afraid to tell her about it b/c it involves one of her defenses too. but she was very open and kept gently telling me that it's okay, she wants to hear. and she did hear. it was hard for her but she recognized herself in what i was saying. not many therapists let a client get deep into their head and then tell them what they figured out about them. she trusts me very much. she said she won't tell me where an issue comes from, i.e. the origin of it, that's crossing a boundary. but if it's relevant to our relationship, she will talk about an issue she has to help us work thru something. we both agree that the idealization thing is a very important issue for us to work on together.
so she really is wonderful in so many ways. it's helping me to write about this b/c i'm getting less angry at her.
thanks for your feedback susan.
LG
Posted by Susan47 on March 21, 2005, at 18:53:29
In reply to Re: one more p.s. » Susan47, posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 12:15:39
Thank you, too. I needed to read what you wrote, today. And I hurt so much, and I'm very angry at the man who was my therapist. The therapy he gave me was completely destroyed by his actions at the end. Maybe he thought it would be kind to be cruel? Hahahahaha. Amputate the limb.
Posted by Dinah on March 21, 2005, at 22:13:21
In reply to Re: countertransference in therapist LONG » Dinah, posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 12:02:17
I didn't mean to discombobulate you.
Truth be told, I would have handled it a bit differently than your therapist did. I would have told you how I was feeling before implementing new boundaries. But she did it the way she did it and you have to work from there.
And I'm generally biased in favor of doing what works in a relationship, if it's one that's worth keeping. If you look at the long term prospects for the relationship surviving and thriving, you need to take her needs and limits into account too. Even though theoretically they're our therapists and we shouldn't need to worry about their needs. I never understood that concept, really. It's true up to a point, but how can it be completely true of someone you care about?
Posted by LG04 on March 22, 2005, at 7:39:48
In reply to Re: countertransference in therapist LONG » LG04, posted by Dinah on March 21, 2005, at 22:13:21
dinah i totally agree with you. i probably worry too much about her needs most of the time. she always gently reminds me it's not my job to take care of her feelings, that it's her responsibility, not mine.
to her defense, in the phone call after she set the boundaries, she explained everything about her countertransference reaction and why she simply had to limit the phone calls to nothing in between. it all made sense to me but inside, i absolutely flipped out b/c it was so sudden and she took away all the regular extra support she had been offering except the main "sessions," and i didn't know what to do. i was so unprepared. i felt like she said, "here are my new boundaries, this is why i need to do it, go deal with it and we'll talk next time." i think she was freaking out a bit inside and was trying to regain a sense of her own control, but in turn it threw me totally out of control.
the issue with me is this:
my little kids are so terrified of her right now. and i have this one voice, a protector voice, that says NO WAY NO HOW will we ever get vulnerable with her again. we will NEVER allow ourselves to get in a position again where one person's actions (in this case, hers, even if she was legitimate in what she did though not so great in how she did it) can throw us into such debilitating pain. this part refuses to even hear her voice, or to allow the little kids "out," which is basically the whole part of me that needs healing, that's vulnerable. they were so so hurt and so so frightened by this. the adult me disappeared from the shock of what happened, and they were left totally unprotected. so the protector voice is in total control now and i feel so emotionally drained that i don't have the energy to fight it. in some ways i WANT the protector voice to take over right now. it allows me to rest a little bit. i'm so exhausted.
but of course this means not speaking to her. and my fear is always this: instead of not speaking to her being a good thing that will lead to a calmer me when we do speak again, i always feel that if i stop speaking to her for a period of time, the fear in me will just grow and i'll never be able to resume contact. (like falling off a horse and needing to get right back on or you'll never do it). that's how i am. this work is so hard that if i stop it, and get used to not doing it, i don't think i'll want to start it up again. and then, yes, i will lose a very, very valuable relationship and someone whom i love.
what would you do dinah? the adult me totally agrees with your take on relationships. it's foreign to me, i'm not good at it, when i'm very hurt i run to the moon, but i want to be able to stay if i can. how can i speak to her if i am basically voiceless from fear? it would be so much easier to just let it all go. these inner voices are SO HARD to fight and they are completely activated again.
(as you can see, i am fairly high on the dissociative scale, though not DID).
THank you so much for helping me with this. you would be a good "therapy impasse consultant." I want to continue the relationship. i just don't know how to do it in the state i'm in.
LG
p.s. and i wrote her an email last night basically telling her all this. it was from my protector voice and then the adult me added a paragraph at the end about how i feel i just don't have the energy to fight this voice right now and i need to take care of these terrified little kids.
Posted by Joslynn on March 22, 2005, at 10:51:29
In reply to countertransference in therapist LONG, posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 8:04:30
I was a little confused by your post. In one part you asked if we could live with there being no way to contact our Ts between sessions but in another part you said that you do communicate with her in between session with scheduled phone calls.
So, was what upset you the fact that, while she is still doing the scheduled phone calls, she said she couldn't do calls in between scheduled phone calls?
If that is the case, I do think that if I were a T, I would want to set the same boundaries she did HOWEVER she should have set them from the start and not flip flopped, no wonder you're confused.
I think it is always hurtful and confusing when someone suddenly changes the rules. That said, I would understand why it would be a lot for her to do the regular in person session, two scheduled phone calls, emails and also unscheduled phone calls. I hope you don't mind that I say that, but it does seem like it would be a lot for one person to do. However, it sounds like she did it for a while, so I just wish she had given you more notice that things would change.
I have had painful transference too, really bad, and it did get better but I know that it magnifies everything.
Posted by Joslynn on March 22, 2005, at 10:58:12
In reply to Re: countertransference in therapist LONG, posted by Joslynn on March 22, 2005, at 10:51:29
OH, I read further and realized, you don't do in-person sessions with her, the phone sessions are the session, because you moved. Sorry I did not know that.
I still think that her boundary setting makes sense, but the timing and flip flopping would hurt me too.
I have idealized people in this position as well. The smallest things can feel huge. And in a way, it does bother me that some of them don't seem to really, truly be educated in the effect that their actions have on us.
Posted by annierose on March 22, 2005, at 13:57:34
In reply to I read further, posted by Joslynn on March 22, 2005, at 10:58:12
LG04 -
I just wanted to say that I'm sorry your had to move away from your T. I can imagine how difficult it is for both of you to conduct most of your therapy via telephone. Very difficult circumstance. I don't understand what you think is her "countertransferance". Yes, she changed her rules (annoying, for sure) and set new boundries (always hard), but I don't think it is necessarily a countertransferance issue. I can see where her availability to you was a source of great comfort. And maybe your anger is really grief, that she won't be there as often for you. That can be hurtful. But I can see her perspective too.Apart from her work with clients, which she obviously holds very dear to her heart, she has a family that also demands her attention. Everyone wants a piece of her. I think she was just trying to carve out a better life solution for herself. She may not of handled it the way you would have, or said things in the manner you would have liked to hear, but can you "hear" what she is trying to say? I know you two will work this out because it is important to both of you.
Posted by LG04 on March 22, 2005, at 14:21:31
In reply to Re: I read further, posted by annierose on March 22, 2005, at 13:57:34
Thanks everyone. I am definitely calming down from it all (the adult me is, the little kids are having a much harder time calming down, it was so incredibly triggering and traumatic for them and i figured out why so at least that's good).
The issue of countertransference happened about 4 weeks ago in reaction to a very intense issue that came up with me (around issues of sexual abuse). it took her a couple of weeks to figure out what was going on with her. Then she suddenly set all these new boundaries and i was so upset and asked her why, and she explained to me the countertransference she had and her need to step way back and re-balance herself basically and that she realized that it was too hard for her to talk with me very much on the phone without the in-person sessions. she presented it as a permanent change. and i freaked out.
so that's what the countertrasnference was. not her boundary setting. her boundary setting was a result of her countertransference. that's partly why i felt so angry, b/c i felt like, it's not my fault that she had such a strong c-t reaction (which already caused her to not be very emotionally available during that time), so why did the result have to be something so painful for me?
anyway as i said i figured out why it was so incredibly painful for me, in short, when she took away my ability to call her even in a crisis, i felt totally unprotected and went straight to the place where i was as a child, with absolutely no protection. that's why i was so desperate that she at least give me the opportunity to call her for a check-in or even a crisis. it really was re-traumitizing for me, though i realize she didn't understand to the degree that it was hurting me. if it hadn't been permanent, the adult me could have stayed in charge, but when she said it was permanent, that's it, i was a vulnerable 5-year-old again.
so that's the story. the problem is my little kids inside are still very traumatized adnd i can tell them that my therapist didn't mean to do that, and i even told them it's my fault b/c the adult me just disappeared, it all happened so suddenly that i had no time to prepare, my kids just completely took over. but they don't care about those details. all they know is, this happened b/c **** went away and they don't ever want to trust her again.
how do you bring your little kids/inner voices in line with the adult you when they feel totally shattered by someone?
LG04
Posted by pinkeye on March 22, 2005, at 16:19:50
In reply to Re: I read further, posted by LG04 on March 22, 2005, at 14:21:31
I try to make both my emotional self and logical self be friends with each other. And not suppress one or the other. Feelings are always more powerful and absolute, whereas I have more control over my logical thinking and actions. The way I think of it is I view the emotional self as an operating system, and my logical self as the application software (in case you are familiar with computer technology). Operating system always has more power ultimately, and it is absolute, but certain times, when OS fails or does not perform well, I can compensate for that with more able application software.
Like that, when my emotional self (or what you call as kid self) misbehaves or acts in a way that my logical self doesn't want it to, I tell that emotional self, "it is ok to feel whatever you are feeling, but this is what is possible now and is ultimately good. So right now I need to override you a little bit. And wehn the right moment comes, I will help you satisfy the urge that you are having now. ". And whenver possible in other areas, I try to give my emotional self as much satisfaction as possible. That way they are both friends with each other, knowing that they might sometimes need to override each other, but most of the time they work in unison.
I am not sure I am making too much of a sense here and if it helps you, but that is the way I control my urges and calm down my emotional or child self.
Posted by Dinah on March 22, 2005, at 18:12:50
In reply to Re: I read further » LG04, posted by pinkeye on March 22, 2005, at 16:19:50
Your emotional self is far more reasonable than mine. :)
Posted by pinkeye on March 22, 2005, at 18:50:40
In reply to Re: I read further » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 22, 2005, at 18:12:50
Well it is pretty hard though to do it all the time. Sometimes you just want something and you won't be able to control yourself no matter what. It happens to me all the time too. But of late, less frequently and less intensely than it did before.
Mostly when I try to suppress my emotions that is when it has the most power. If I acknowledge it, let me feel it, and pat myself on my back and distract myself, I found I have a better chance of not torturing myself over it.
Posted by LG04 on March 22, 2005, at 21:15:04
In reply to Re: I read further » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on March 22, 2005, at 18:50:40
Pinkeye that was so helpful. i almost always give in to the emotional self. my therapist would tell me that it's like when you have kids, sometimes, as the parent, you have to make the best decision for them even if they disagree. but as much as possible you try to give them choices and work together with them. but in the end, the parent has the final say. something like that anyway.
i appreciate your strategy. as soon as i read it, i tried it with myself and i think it will be helpful for me. if i go with my emotional self, i will never be able to speak with my therapist again. they are terrified of her right now, they were so re-traumatized.
i'm still not sure if i'll be able to call her on thursday. the adult me is also still mad, that she didn't hear me when i told her this is putting me over the edge. i have called her hysterically crying on many occasions though so probably she didn't think this was any different than another. if i explain to her what happened, and what she did that triggered me (specifally not making herself available in case of a crisis and saying that it's a permanent change), i have a feeling she will promise not to ever do that again. i keep telling myself, "she didn't know. she knew i was in terrible pain, but she didn't realize she was re-traumatizing me."
i don't think it's too unreasonable to ask one's therapist if they can be available by phone in the case of a crisis. (as long as you don't have weekly crises!)
i also saw my mom tonight and that helped. i told myself, "now here's the real one to be furious and terrified of. here's the real one who didn't protect you. it's not ****'s responsibility to protect you from your father. it was HERS."
anyway this has simply never happened to me before with my therapist and that's why i'm just so shaken and thinking and writing about it so much.
thanks again pinkeye,
LG04
Posted by pinkeye on March 23, 2005, at 12:47:36
In reply to Re: I read further » pinkeye, posted by LG04 on March 22, 2005, at 21:15:04
Take care LG. Therapists sometimes mess up too - mostly unconsciously and not being aware of their influence on their patients. I hope you can work it out with your T later. Give it some time and hold yourself together till then.
Posted by LG04 on March 23, 2005, at 13:48:50
In reply to Re: I read further » LG04, posted by pinkeye on March 23, 2005, at 12:47:36
we're speaking tomorrow so i'll probably write in about how it went.
LG04
Posted by thewrite1 on March 24, 2005, at 10:36:09
In reply to countertransference in therapist LONG, posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 8:04:30
I really feel for you on this one. I would just try to be open and honest with your T and hope that she can work past the countertransference and be the best T she can be.
I've never had that sort of thing happen to me before. My T is pretty good about keeping countertransference out of our sessions. I recall one time where she reacted to something I said in a way that wasn't helpful to me. She kind of flipped out. That scared me and made me feel like I'd done something wrong. I did bring it up in the following session and she admitted to the countertransference and said she was sorry.
Posted by shrinking violet on March 25, 2005, at 11:13:37
In reply to countertransference in therapist LONG, posted by LG04 on March 21, 2005, at 8:04:30
Hi LG04,
I'm so sorry you're hurting so much because of this....I know how it can feel.
I'm glad that you're going to talk to your T soon; please post and let us know how it goes.
My T has done similar things as your T, particularly with e-mails. At first, she allowed them, since it was the only way I could communicate with her. Then she tried to take it away....which caused a similar reaction to yours. I felt like she was cutting off the only way I knew of to communicate with her, since I cannot speak in sessions, and I am much more comfortable with the written word and thinking/talking in my head (oh, if I could speak the way I write!). We still go back and forth on this issue, and it's difficult. I wish she'd choose one side and let it be. But then, given my boundaries are so loose with her, I often blatantly go against her request for no emails, when I need to communicate something to her but know I can't do it in person. My T has also done this in other ways: saying things, taking them back, saying them again, giving things, then taking them away, then giving them back....Inconsistencies do not sit well with me, and I think that given the intimate relationship we have with our T's, and how vulnerable we can be with them, we NEED some structure and rules and knowlege that they know what they're doing, especially when we are unsure.
But, T's are also human (eegads!), and they really don't have one set standard rules to follow. Different things work with different clients, and T's sometimes try things but then realize they aren't working, and need to tweak their approach a bit. And these changes affect us, sometimes very deeply and profoundly, as you recently discovered.
I do hope you and your T can work this out and get past this. It seems like you both want to, and it seems the relatiosnhip you have with her is worth trying to save. I wish you luck.
SV
Posted by shrinking violet on March 26, 2005, at 12:26:11
In reply to Re: countertransference in therapist LONG » LG04, posted by shrinking violet on March 25, 2005, at 11:13:37
This is the end of the thread.
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