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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2005, at 4:32:17
Because I know he's a seriously religious Christian. He doesn't shout it out or try to convert me. But I know he's relatively ummm.... orthodox, shall I say, in terms of sexuality especially. Not judgemental exactly. I wouldn't say that. But rather self consciously nonjudgemental.
So while I'm open with him about nearly everything, there are pockets of things that I'm not really willing to tell him because I know his response wouldn't be "Oh, how interesting. Tell me more." but more "mmmmm....."
Of course, this may just be my perception, fed by shame on my part. But I don't *feel* particularly ashamed. And I'm so very good on picking up his reactions. I just feel the need for a sudden swerve at times.
Posted by mair on January 9, 2005, at 7:27:29
In reply to There are things I'm reluctant to tell therapist, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2005, at 4:32:17
Dinah - is this an inverse to telling your T what he wants to hear? Not talking about the things that he doesn't want to hear? What purpose does it serve for you?
I know enough about my T's life to have ocassionally made certain topics seem like minefields to me although she's made it certain I know that they shouldn't be. I know her father is dead and has been for several years. When my father was still living and was posing a lot of problems for me, I found myself concerned that she might be saying to herself something like "she should appreciate that her father is still living" as I endlessly catalogued all my complaints about him. And alot of my work difficulties have been with one colleague in particular who I knew my T knew on a social basis, although I didn't know how friendly they were. Back in the beginning I was pretty reticent to criticize him for the same reason. I don't know how we got that out in the open, but it helped when we did, and now she spends alot of time trying to convince me that I have a right to be angrier with him than I usually will own up to.
And then there's all of the judgments that I think she and sometimes my pdoc are making but not verbalizing. I know on a certain intellectual level that these are probably projections, but I can be pretty certain of them and they can inhibit what I'll say.
If you're not ashamed, do you think you're just afraid/reluctant to make your T feel uncomfortable? Is this you taking care of his feelings? I think my own self-censoring is shame driven - I'm too concerned about the negative impression my T will form if she knows certain things. And these are not deep dark secrets of the shameful variety, but they involve such powerful self-judgments and produce alot of shame on my part. And when she says something complimentary about me, I do sometimes have that "if she only really knew" thought.
Mair
Posted by DissociativeJane on January 9, 2005, at 8:15:14
In reply to There are things I'm reluctant to tell therapist, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2005, at 4:32:17
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>
> So while I'm open with him about nearly everything, there are pockets of things that I'm not really willing to tell him because I know his response wouldn't be "Oh, how interesting. Tell me more." but more "mmmmm....."Dinah,
Are you sure this is the reason why?I think if you can tell your therapist about your recent dream, you can tell him about ANYTHING!
As for me, I feel like I CAN and should tell my therapist anything that is on my mind however, I have a hard to talking sometimes. I can have great conversations in my head but to get the words out of my mouth outloud, I really struggle
Posted by messadivoce on January 9, 2005, at 14:51:20
In reply to There are things I'm reluctant to tell therapist, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2005, at 4:32:17
Hi Dinah,
I feel like I can speak to this topic. I come from a very conservative Christian background which was something I wanted to separate from my identity when I went to therapy. My parents were very concerned that I wasn't seeing a Christian therapist, and I basically told them I didn't care WHAT he was because he was the most kind, compassionate, understanding person I had ever met, and once more, he was helping me.
I was about 3 months into my therapy when I was complaining to him that people from my background are taught to be suspicious of people like him (psychologists) and he told me that a lot of psychologists have to reconcile their faith with their profession, and that is an individual process. And then he told me that he too was a Christian!! I almost fell off the couch when he told me, because he was so understanding and non-judgemental towards me.
As my therapy progressed, it was nice to know that we had that shared faith and understanding. It made me have to explain less. He was not afraid to discuss sexuality openly and matter-of-factly with me even so. It was the most delicate balance of professionalism and faith.
I guess my point in all of this is, give him a chance to react to what you have to say to him. Is it possible he may surprise you? I hope so.
Voce
Posted by Aphrodite on January 9, 2005, at 15:27:09
In reply to There are things I'm reluctant to tell therapist, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2005, at 4:32:17
Wow, I was surprised by your post b/c I never picked up on this about your T before. However, I'm sure in his job, he's heard everything.
> But I know he's relatively ummm.... orthodox, shall I say, in terms of sexuality especially. Not judgemental exactly. I wouldn't say that. But rather self consciously nonjudgemental.Just curious. . . but if you're willing to share, what's an example of this?
Have you called him out on his "mmmm . . ." reponses? My T gets so upset when I bring up much later that I didn't say X or Y because I assumed he had differing thoughts. He always says I won't know until I ask, and he's great about being forthcoming. Sometimes, he suprises me when his truth is hurtful, but I'd rather be worried about something I know is real instead of what I am guessing.
But, knowing you, you have based this on something concrete.
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2005, at 20:29:58
In reply to Re: There are things I'm reluctant to tell therapi » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on January 9, 2005, at 15:27:09
He says he's really nonjudgmental and I can tell him anything. I'm still not sure. I'm even less sure it's important. Fantasies are just fantasies, and the only reason it feels important is because there's almost nothing I'd prefer not to tell him. He says that if it's something I know I don't want to tell him, it must be important. But I don't think it works that way.
Yes, my impression was based on something concrete. I was talking about some highly embarassing college stories along the "everything but..." lines, and he not only talked about how normal and ok it was, but that it was generally considered by many to be something best left for later. It's possible he was validating what he thought were my feelings rather than expressing his own, though.
Other times it just feels more of a stepping back or shying away. I'm good at monitoring the level of intimacy in the room. But it's possible that that just has to do with the fact that it's easier to talk about sex with people you aren't emotionally intimate with. Early in therapy he recommended orgasm as an anxiety coping skill. I am absolutely positive he would do no such thing today. It would be embarassing for both of us in a way it wasn't when we barely knew one another.
Posted by CareBear04 on January 12, 2005, at 3:28:02
In reply to I told him this today, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2005, at 20:29:58
wow, this is a really interesting post. i can relate to this topic is well. i liked what messadivoce had to say. i too come from a very christian family, and until i was in the hospital for weeks after an overdose and my illness was undeniable, my parents would hardly consider therapy or meds.... i think especially therapy. for a long time and maybe still now, i think they saw mental illness as a spiritual problem, as a departure from God, and not as a real medical problem.
as a result of my background, i think i'm sort of ashamed of some of the things that i've done, especially in college. i've been very reluctant to talk about a lot of these things with therapists, but i don't know if it's more because i'm wary of how they'll react or afraid i'll offend their morals or because i'm ashamed of myself. it sounds like you, dinah, have a concrete example of why you should think twice about what you say. that's really intersting that your T would recommend orgasm early on in therapy and that over time, since you know each other better, stuff like that (words like the big 'O') become harder and harder to say.
in the past year, i've had two main therapists that have treated me for at least six months each. they are both MD psychiatrist psychoanalysts. i don't know if this makes a difference in how i approach them. one is a woman, very very kind and empathetic, very caring, but sort of motherly and protective. i do know that she has at least one child. i've disclosed much less with her about my social life, and i'm much more guarded in what i say and how i say it. in contrast, back at school a year ago, i was referred to a male dr. at first, i found him overly doctorish compared to the woman pdoc who was really warm and made me feel like i was talking to a person, not just a dr. but after awhile, i grew to love the new dr, and i miss him a lot now. at first, i hated going to therapy-- i was required to do 3x a week, and it was like pulling teeth-- but after awhile, i really clicked with him. i don't know why, but i love that he is aggressive about treatment on the med side, that he is totally irreverent and blunt, that he has a dirtier mouth than i do, and that he treated me like an adult. at first, he seemed to think i was really prissy and talked to me only about school and such. at one point, i think i got tired of being thought of as such an angel, and i said something like, "you know, i'm in college... i do have other stuff in my life besides classes and seeing you!" after that, he seemed to veer completely towards the other extreme and assumed that i was a total party girl. he assumed that i was hooking up with all the guys in my life and took it for granted that i was sleeping with my boyfriend. i didn't really bother to correct him... i think it amused both of us to some extent. i think i was more comfortable with it because he didn't use clinical words to address subjects like sex; whether appropriate or not, he spoke in terms of "f---ing" and other words that my friends would be much more likely to use than any dr. we never talked specifically about personal sex stories or anything, but somehow, his frankness made everything a possible topic of conversation. we mostly talked about books and movies and philosophy and medicine and broad topics like that which are nothing like 'real' therapy, but i still think he's the greatest, and if i ever had to discuss an uncomfortable topic, i would choose to do it with him over the kind and caring woman pdoc anyday. i like them both, and i'm still surprised at how i came to like this guy and feel comfortable with him.
sorry if this is sort of off-topic. i just definitely understand the feeling of needing to censor yourself when speaking to your T for fear of causing him/her or yourself to be uncomfortable.
thanks for the posts... really intersting!
Posted by Dinah on January 12, 2005, at 5:38:29
In reply to Re: I told him this today, posted by CareBear04 on January 12, 2005, at 3:28:02
The thing I'm *not* really sure of is if he was attempting to validate what he thought I was feeling. I like your pdoc. He reminds me of the therapist in "Ordinary People", one of my all time favorites.
I think I do try to please my therapist too much, or consider his feelings a lot. But maybe sometimes I'm considering feelings I'm afraid he'll have, not feelings he'll actually have.
I still see no reason I *need* to discuss my fantasies with him, since it's not something I even find mildly interesting IRL.
And while I think of myself as being not particularly ashamed of anything I've done, and really open about my slightly odd sexuality, I think it's possible that some old family values are being handed down. My father never discussed things one way or another. My mother was not terribly religious, but she was Mormon, was raised Mormon, and had certain expectations for me. I'm not sure if I broke those expectations or not. :) I sort of think not, but I'm not about to ask. lol.
Posted by littleone on January 12, 2005, at 14:14:42
In reply to Re: I told him this today » CareBear04, posted by Dinah on January 12, 2005, at 5:38:29
> I think I do try to please my therapist too much, or consider his feelings a lot. But maybe sometimes I'm considering feelings I'm afraid he'll have, not feelings he'll actually have.
This part always confuses me. In one way I understand that the therapy is for you alone and you should be able to say anything you want without fear of repercussions or hurting the T or whatever. But in another way, I don't get this at all.In long term therapy where the emphasis is on the relationship, isn't part of a relationship being considerate of the other person's feelings? Isn't it supposed to be kind of like practice for real life?
I understand that holding things back can be detrimental to the therapy, but in the same way, wouldn't slagging on your T or saying things that might drive a bit of a wedge between you also be detrimental? He may become more distanced or whatever.
I don't know. Just black and white thinking stuff kicking in again. I need an instruction manual for this stuff.
Posted by CareBear04 on January 12, 2005, at 14:55:09
In reply to Re: I told him this today » Dinah, posted by littleone on January 12, 2005, at 14:14:42
that's intersting; i never thought of it in terms of a bilateral relationship. i guess i always just envisioned the T as there for you since you're the one shelling out the bucks. i never really thought of the patient having an obligation to please the T or at least be somewhat restrained or careful so as to preserve the relationship.
i think dinah said that she has been surprised by some of the things her T has said that may go against what he would do himself. someone else talked about how she much later found out that her T was an ardent Christian. as for myself, i don't know if i could do the job of a good T. i've been in positions of being accepting of a wide range of social behavior, but i've always just sort of listened or laughed, but i've never been in the position of having to respond or make comments or suggestions. i think my own moral beliefs would make me uncomfortable, except in cases where i could talk about my own experiences and the effect they had on me. i don't think most Ts do this-- divulge personal sketchy pasts.
i guess my thought is that if the T can't tolerate what's on your mind and what you feel the need to talk about-- if it's apparent that he or she is uncomfortable, then maybe you should find a new T. i'm a bit of a therapy failure, so i shouldn't talk, but i'm under the impression that when therapy works, you are at your most honest, and the T doesn't judge or react based on moral grounds so much as make constructive suggestions if the behavior is dangerous or harmful, for example. i think therapy is a different sort of relationship than friendship or collegiality where you shouldn't have to compromise or hold back to preserve the relationship. if you're paying money, shouldn't you give it to someone who can help you the most by letting you share what's important or disturbing or pertinent?
just my thoughts, but i thought your view was intersting.
Posted by CareBear04 on January 12, 2005, at 14:58:24
In reply to Re: I told him this today » CareBear04, posted by Dinah on January 12, 2005, at 5:38:29
hi dinah-- yeah that T was pretty cool, really laid-back and joking about everything. he could even make me laugh about things that were upsetting.
i definitely know what you mean about your parents' morals being handed down and internalized to some degree. i wouldn't dream of discussing with my parents the question of whether i've fallen short of their moral standards. from a secular standpoint, nothing i've done is even very scandalous at all, but from a religious point of view, my behavior at some times would probably not be looked highly upon.
i'm interested to know more about your T. sounds like you've been with him for awhile, anyway, and that you don't plan on leaving him anytime soon. i hope to have time to look in the archives to learn more about what your experience has been like.
thanks!
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