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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 37. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2005, at 20:59:46
I think my therapist is a wonderful therapist mommy. I think he's patient and consistent.
I think he's a lousy analyst, not terribly insightful or perceptive.
I wonder if I'd do better with a therapist who had more training than my therapist who's a counselor rather than a psychologist. I wonder if I'm too much for his experience and knowledge base. His answer is so often "I don't know" or "I don't know how to help you".
I suppose it doesn't make much difference. I'm never going to leave my therapist mommy.
Posted by Pfinstegg on January 5, 2005, at 22:20:35
In reply to I think...., posted by Dinah on January 5, 2005, at 20:59:46
The same question occasionally comes up for me, Dinah. I do know you have gotten a lot from your therapist, and that you almost certainly would not change. But I sometimes feel an absence, both on his and your part, of a real sense that you can really get well. I sometimes wonder why there is more emphasis on *maintenance* than growth in many of your posts. I realize that you feel that there are some built-in psychological limitations on your part, but I don't feel that way about you! You haven't given me any reason to think that you have built-in permanent limitations- in fact, I can't believe it when you say you do. Could it be partly the result of the dynamics between you and your therapist? Therapists like Daisy's and mine apparently are both known for treating people with difficult problems, long-term, but I know mine, at least, thinks both in terms of me really getting well, and of having me come essentially as long as I feel I need to. I don't know for sure, but I suspect Daisy's may be very similiar in aims and technique. But you are your therapist's ONLY really long-term client! He apparently has not been trained in the same way as ours have, and may therefore have some real constraints and limitations on what he's able to accomplish with someone in intensive, long-term therapy. Although it's not really right to compare one person to another, if I, with csa and a disorder on the dissociative spectrum, am expected to eventually get genuinely well, why not you? I'd think your chances are at least as good as mine (probably better).
Posted by TofuEmmy on January 5, 2005, at 23:33:33
In reply to I think...., posted by Dinah on January 5, 2005, at 20:59:46
Dinah, have you and your T talked about you seeing a psychologist once a week, and your T once a week? Would he go along with that? Would you? So for those areas that are out of his area of training, you could work with the psychologist. The two T's would need to share info about you completely in order for that to work. It might be a very, very, very, long term goal to wean you away (close your eyes here Dinah) to wean you from your current T, to one who is more highly skilled. But this could happen over years....or (open your eyes now) maybe never. :-)
emmy
Posted by gardenergirl on January 5, 2005, at 23:56:08
In reply to I think...., posted by Dinah on January 5, 2005, at 20:59:46
Dinah,
I admire that relationship that you and your T have forged over time, and how hard you work for it. And I know how valuable your therapist mommy is to you.But I admit that I've wondered similar things about how you might do with a different T. One who is trained and experienced in long term therapy. And because I have to believe in the training I am getting, ;), I wonder about how it might be if you worked with someone like a psychologist who is trained to develop a dynamic, working conceptualization of the client. Someone who then would choose interventions based on this conceptualization and the moment to moment therapy experiences in a different way than a counselor might.
I think you are absolutely allowed to wonder this yourself and to decide for yourself IF, when and how you might want to make a change.
And lordy I know that would be scary. Change is usually very scary for me. Some of the changes I've experienced that didn't feel like my first choice at the time turned out to be wonderful blessings.
And I agree with pfinstegg, (likely because I am a Humanist, and choose to see potential in all) that you can continue to develop and grow. Maintenance is not bad, but do you want more than that at some point again?
gg
Posted by daisym on January 6, 2005, at 0:35:31
In reply to I think...., posted by Dinah on January 5, 2005, at 20:59:46
I have to wonder if you might be thinking this because you are in great pain right now and he can't fix that for you. The grief you must be feeling is so painful and soul-seering...it can make you question so many things. There are statistics about how many people get divorced, move or quit jobs after the death of a parent or child. The need to move, to do something, anything, different, is huge. Plus, you feel different and that makes everything and everyone around you feel different too.
I also can't help but wonder if the loss of your dad isn't causing you to wonder (consciously or unconsciously) if you aren't vulnerable to another loss by your attachment. It would scare me tons. (It DOES scare me tons!)
I don't think this is the time to make any life changes. And given your attachment to your therapist (who DOES have wonderful support skills), changing right now would be a huge stress. I think there is value in the idea of looking at adding a psychologist to your team, or perhaps a psychodynamic group of some kind. But wait a little while while you are grieving.
I also want to echo everyone else by saying that you aren't "incurable" whatever that means. You've talked about your temperment and responses to stress as biologically based. Even if that is true, potential change exists for everyone. I think it would be important to ask yourself if you want to be pushed or if you "just" want support. There is nothing wrong with that, you know?
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2005, at 2:24:18
In reply to I think...., posted by Dinah on January 5, 2005, at 20:59:46
I think that while you may feel like you would be completely devistated were you not to see him anymore that there are other ways of being. I do not think that this is something that you can come to really see or properly believe just by saying it over and over though. I think this is something that would have to be learned by experience.
I like Emmy's suggestion about starting up with someone new while continuing to see your old therapist. You see him a couple of times a week but aim to get back down to one a week again eventually - when you are feeling a bit better, right? Well in that case seeing him once a week and seeing someone else once a week wouldn't be seeing him any the less.
You might get attached to the other therapist which wouldn't make seeing him less feel so hard. You might be able to take brief 'holidays' from your current one and feel ok.You might be able to see someone who could help show you that with an improved social network the absense of any one particular person is not the end of the world. The interdependent self can still have its needs met.
But if it is something that needs to be learned by experience then some different input is required to help you learn that. I do understand that this is really hard for you which is why I am thinking about breaking it down into small steps and taking it real slow.
One day you won't be able to see him anymore. It would be terrific if you could feel okay about that before that day arrives.
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 4:05:59
In reply to I think...., posted by Dinah on January 5, 2005, at 20:59:46
I'd never think of leaving him, of course.
He helped me immensely with my OCD with CBT. And not just anyone could have done that because I dislike CBT a lot. He had to spoonfeed it to me, with a lot of reframing, and a lot of validation.
And I don't *think* this is fallout from idealization. I don't think I ever idealized his therapeutic skills. I used to think he spouted pop-psych stuff and sounded like Stuart Smalley. He's quit doing that with me, but...
Well, he just doesn't seem that deep. When I'm dealing with day to day stuff, he's fine. He props me up and keeps me going. But if I'm working on deeper stuff, you guys come up with much better insight than he does. I often bring babble stuff to him.
Sometimes I just get frustrated with something like that dream. He just glossed over everything except that I had seen him at the post office and noticed he was a man. If it was just that once, but it's not. I suppose I could say that he forces me to come to my own conclusions, but...
So I tend to get frustrated with him when I'm trying to work on a deeper level.
He won't allow me to have more than one therapist. He's ok with an adjunct short term therapist to do something he doesn't do, with a limited scope and purpose. I haven't liked any of the adjunct therapists, though, and have never gotten very far with them.
He'd be ok with me seeing a family therapist or a EMDR therapist or a biofeedback therapist or a hypnotherapist or a sex therapist. But they'd have to draw lines first. He would quit seeing me if I started to see two therapists at once. He's firm on that. Says he doesn't work that way.
He'd also be angry with this thread. He thinks he's competent to treat me. He reminds me of the years he spent working with a psychiatrist who specialized in dissociative disorders.
I know he doesn't read this board, and won't see this thread, but it makes me a bit nervous even to discuss his shortcomings. Not that I don't know he has them.
Also, the state of the mental health community is incredibly poor around here. More so than many areas. If I lived in New York or California, I'd probably be able to find a well trained therapist should I ever decide to look for one, which I won't. Because he's not perfect (not by a long shot) but he's my mommy.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2005, at 5:15:02
In reply to Re: I think...., posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 4:05:59
> He helped me immensely with my OCD with CBT. And not just anyone could have done that because I dislike CBT a lot. He had to spoonfeed it to me, with a lot of reframing, and a lot of validation.
I agree completely that 'not just anyone could have done that'. I disagree that he is the only person in the world who could have done that, though.
> Well, he just doesn't seem that deep. When I'm dealing with day to day stuff, he's fine. He props me up and keeps me going. But if I'm working on deeper stuff, you guys come up with much better insight than he does. I often bring babble stuff to him.There are more of us to offer loads of stuff for you to take whatever may resonate.
> He won't allow me to have more than one therapist. He's ok with an adjunct short term therapist to do something he doesn't do, with a limited scope and purpose. I haven't liked any of the adjunct therapists, though, and have never gotten very far with them.It is hard to find a good therapist. It can also take a bit of time to figure out if they are going to be good for you or not. Sometimes the ones that drive you a bit bananas turn out to be ok. Not the invalidating ones, though, or not for me at any rate.
Lots of therapists won't let their clients see another therapist at the same time. Something about it 'confusing' the client. One therapist saying one thing and another therapist saying another...
I personally think it has more to do with turf encroachment.
I think that if you told him that you would like to work on your dependency / attachment issues (with him) and that he wasn't really helping you progress with that and so you figured that someone else may be able to better help you there simply in virtue of being someone else (and not in virtue of being a better therapist or anything like that) - then you may be able to bring him around. If he realises that you will never choose someone else over him if it comes to that and he also realises that he is not in a position to help you with this issue then ethically he should allow you to see someone else to help you with that. It isn't beyond his level of expertise because his level of training or anything like that, it is just beyond his power to do anything because he has become the object of the problem. If he can't understand any of this, then I would be seriously worried about just who it is that is getting their needs met in that theraputic relationship. If he still insists, well could you go see someone else regardless (without his knowledge)? I have done that before...
> Also, the state of the mental health community is incredibly poor around here.Yes, it can be hard to find a good therapist. If you start working with someone else as well though (to kind of suss them out) and you seem to be getting on with them ok, well then that might be the time to broach the real issue. To tell that therapist the stuff you have been telling us. They may decide that it is ok for you to continue doing that and continue seeing them both at once.
Posted by partlycloudy on January 6, 2005, at 10:44:46
In reply to Re: I think...., posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 4:05:59
As much as I adored my old therapist, it wasn't until I started seeing this new one that I realised how much fumbling in the dark I did over the last year. My old T had a lot of "I don't know" and "Gosh, that's too bad" answers for my searching questions. This new one is much more focused, it seems, and I have more hope that we'll actually get somewhere this year. Maybe it was the change I needed, but I all of a sudden have become more proactive (though not successfully so). Any direction is better than standing still, I guess.
Posted by fallsfall on January 6, 2005, at 12:34:24
In reply to Re: I think...., posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 4:05:59
I think that it is good that you can see your therapists good points and his bad points.
I do agree with Daisy that this might not be the best time for you to make a change. But that doesn't mean that you can't consider what it might be like with a different therapist.
I like to think about my situation by thinking that I needed one kind of therapist at the beginning, but a different kind of therapist now (and who knows what I'll need in 5 years?).
One of the reasons I left my first therapist was that she wouldn't/couldn't go deeper with me. She did try, but it was clear that it wasn't something she was comfortable with - it didn't match her orientation.
You will, however, never find another therapist like your current one. Just like we are all unique, so are our therapists. But, then again, if you wanted a therapist who was exactly like your therapist, then you could just stay with him!
Certainly an interesting topic to think about.
Posted by Shortelise on January 6, 2005, at 13:14:23
In reply to I think...., posted by Dinah on January 5, 2005, at 20:59:46
Oh, no, I have never thought about this.
Now I have to.
I guess that's why I come here.
ShortE
Posted by Aphrodite on January 6, 2005, at 16:27:26
In reply to Re: I think...., posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 4:05:59
>
> Sometimes I just get frustrated with something like that dream. He just glossed over everything except that I had seen him at the post office and noticed he was a man. If it was just that once, but it's not. I suppose I could say that he forces me to come to my own conclusions, but...Let me finish that for you: "but . . . probably not." You really have an objective take on your T's strengths and weaknesses.
>
> He won't allow me to have more than one therapist. He's ok with an adjunct short term therapist to do something he doesn't do, with a limited scope and purpose. I haven't liked any of the adjunct therapists, though, and have never gotten very far with them.
>
> He's firm on that. Says he doesn't work that way.Just from the reading here and another time you mentioned it, he sounds a little defensive. Am I reading that wrong? But I do understand that most Ts hold to this as well. My T was a little miffed when I went for a second opinion. I can see how it might pique their egos! However, getting another point of view was the best thing for my therapy, and even he admits that now.
>
> He'd also be angry with this thread. He thinks he's competent to treat me. He reminds me of the years he spent working with a psychiatrist who specialized in dissociative disorders.The pdoc specialized, not him. If I am recalling right, he also seemed a little burned out by it? But you are more than a patient on the dissociative spectrum. You have an intellect and depth that is quite rare, you know. Does he acknowledge that? I bet he knows, if he hasn't said so outright.
>
>Because he's not perfect (not by a long shot) but he's my mommy.
This counts for a lot and makes up for many of the shortcomings. I don't think it hurts to wonder. At least when you stay with him, you know it's because you've weighed the pros and cons. Sometimes, though, we want more than Mom. The unfortunate thing is that you are in a position not to gain valuable insight from other professionals because of his rule and your location. With real moms, you get to have all the other relationships you want and still have mom to come home to, so to speak.
Have you ever thought about what some cons might be to an in-depth, intellectual T? Maybe one could be constant head-spinning, a constant struggle with intensity. Mabye less emoting and bonding?
I think in any comfortable relationship we start to wonder and long for more or wonder how other people might be different. Maybe this is the therapeutic equivalent to the marital seven year itch?
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 17:37:35
In reply to Re: I think.... » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on January 6, 2005, at 16:27:26
Mind if I come back to it at another time?
I got another blow to the knees, and I don't know if I'll be able to stay standing. My whippet is functionally paralyzed below the neck. I've spent all my money and can't afford to have her hospitalized. The consensus is there's only one test that will help, it'll cost a thousand dollars, and it would only tell if she's dying.
So she's at home lying on her side, requiring fairly constant care, moving from side to side, feeding etc.
It's the straw that broke my back. Total meltdown. We're trying to keep me out of the hospital through daily visits with therapist, assuming husband is willing to pay for them. If not, and maybe even if so, I'll be checking into hospital. If it comes to that I'll make sure to let you know.
I just have this feeling that I have to do something really really bad in order to let people see that I can't do any more. People keep expecting things from me. I just think if I do something... well, that'd be triggering. Anyway, my therapist would prefer I go into the hospital instead. I'm not sure.
I am so tired.
Posted by Aphrodite on January 6, 2005, at 19:15:59
In reply to Re: I think I'll have to consider it a bit later, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 17:37:35
Please do whatever it takes to feel safe and better. I'm so sorry about the puppy.
I'll keep you in constant thought and prayer.
(((Dinah)))
Posted by TofuEmmy on January 6, 2005, at 20:57:58
In reply to Re: I think I'll have to consider it a bit later, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 17:37:35
If you decide on the hospital stay, it may turn out to be a good rest for you. You have been through SO much lately. Let someone else cook your meals and do your dishes. Bring books, and cozy slippers.
If you are in ANY danger of hurting yourself, you know you must do this for your son's sake - whether you wanna or not. Cuz Emmy says so. Sometimes I must put my foot down. :-)
Please take care Dinah. Hugs.
emmy
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 21:47:15
In reply to Re: I think I'll have to consider it a bit later » Dinah, posted by TofuEmmy on January 6, 2005, at 20:57:58
I'm leaning towards the hospital right now, which is better than earlier today. But I don't know if I can stand the fuss involved.
The poor dog is going to have to go back to the vets tomorrow one way or another. I'm going to take my husband up on his offer to pay for her care. I just can't do this right now. She needs more than I can give.
I could try the once a day therapy, but it seems that that would just contribute to the problem - pretending I can keep doing everything when I really just can't. But I don't know if I can bear to admit that.
I'll sleep on it. I hope I'll sleep anyway. Not sleeping has been one of the problems.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 6, 2005, at 22:26:40
In reply to Thanks Emmy and Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 21:47:15
Dinah,
I hope you are sleeping peacefully and getting the rest you need right now. If not, I hope you are doing something to take care of yourself. If that means going to the hospital, then that's a good thing. I'll be thinking of you and sending out peaceful, soothing thoughts.Take care,
gg
Posted by Speaker on January 6, 2005, at 22:58:46
In reply to Re: Thanks Emmy and Aphrodite » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on January 6, 2005, at 22:26:40
Posted by DissociativeJane on January 6, 2005, at 23:32:31
In reply to Thanks Emmy and Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 21:47:15
Dear Dinah,
I'm sorry you're feeling so bad. You have so much stress right now that I can imagine it must feel overwhelming.
How will going to the hospital help you? Do you want to be admitted? Do you think you need a medication adjustment to make you feel better?
BLESSINGS TO YOU
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2005, at 4:07:42
In reply to Re: Thanks Emmy and Aphrodite » Dinah, posted by DissociativeJane on January 6, 2005, at 23:32:31
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2005, at 4:14:39
In reply to Re: Thanks Emmy and Aphrodite » Dinah, posted by DissociativeJane on January 6, 2005, at 23:32:31
Those are good questions. I hate meds and I imagine they'll push them. I'm not a big one for group activities and the idea of sharing a bedroom and bath borders on terrifying. My emetophobia is already kicking up.
It's just that my other alternatives are ones that only I think are good ones. We're going to talk again this morning and this time I hope he has something more concrete to offer than "I'll help you, but no I don't know how yet."
Posted by mair on January 7, 2005, at 4:56:11
In reply to Re: Thanks Emmy and Aphrodite » DissociativeJane, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2005, at 4:14:39
Given the time of your post (even Pacific Time) it's clear you're not sleeping and given the time of mine (eastern standard), it's clear I'm not either.
You're obviously overwelmed and depleted, and exhausted to boot. I can't imagine how you're functioning. Just consider what you've had to deal with over the last few months.
Your son needs you, but he needs a healthier you and I think you've got to do whatever it takes to get there. If that means the hospital - go to the hospital.
My secretary's best friend was recently hospitalized after her husband left her. Everytime I've thought about the hospital, I've never been able to imagine how the typical short stay could make a difference, unless maybe you were trying to radically alter your meds. But the 4 days or so that this woman was in made a world of difference. Maybe there's great value in admitting that you can't do everything and allowing others to start taking care of you. A few years ago when my T was considering whether it my be a good alternative for me, I posted here about it, and one responder said just that - that just the acknowledgment on her part (and on the part of others maybe) that she needed help, made it easier for her to really start healing.
Don't feel you have to go to the extreme of doing something extreme to make others see what you're feeling. The proverbial cry for help suicidal attempt or SI action can go wrong and can be misinterpreted. Just do what you know you need to do to take care of yourself.
Hopefully your T can offer more concrete support.
In the meantime, I'm thinking about you too - alot.
Mair
Posted by DissociativeJane on January 7, 2005, at 9:19:36
In reply to Re: Thanks Emmy and Aphrodite » DissociativeJane, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2005, at 4:14:39
Dinah,
Instead of going to the hospital, why not treat yourself to a retreat of some sort maybe a healing "spa package" with an emphasis on healing?
I have never met you however, I sense that maybe you need an escape.....
I'm wondering if a mental health unit in a hospital would really be helpful for you, but I guess only you can answer this question.
Thoughtfully,
Jane
Posted by antigua on January 7, 2005, at 12:10:45
In reply to Hospital » Dinah, posted by DissociativeJane on January 7, 2005, at 9:19:36
You're a great person, Dinah, and are well loved here at Babble, so please do whatever you need to keep safe. Let go and let others take care of you. You have a great relationship w/your son that I know is very important to you.
antigua
Posted by Annierose on January 7, 2005, at 12:26:27
In reply to Re: Hospital, posted by antigua on January 7, 2005, at 12:10:45
Just wanted to let you know that I want you to feel better. Life sometimes just isn't fair. You have already suffered so much. I hope you can do what is best for you right now, whatever course that might be. Annierose
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