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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 16:10:17
I have been thinking all day about my posts and my decision of needing to back off from going to therapy so much and it is making me nuts. I have a confession to make. First off, it has been known by my doctors that I do have obsessive tendencies but I havent been having any for quite a while. All of the thoughts of backing off of therapy though is making me obsess. I have found out where my therapist lives and even drove by her house a couple of times. Im not stalking her..i dont park my car and watch for her but she doesnt realize that i found out where she lives. I even looked in the phone book to find people that live on the same road as her...because Im jealous. I like my therapist a lot as a person and I have told her this...But I want to be friends with her, more than just a therpist/patient relationship..and this isnt possible. If she knew that I knew where she lives i dont know how she would react. I actually on sunday passed her on the road when i was driving home but i dont know if she saw me. We occasionally run into each other in public...(very rarely) but I want us to be friends. Im obsessing so much over trying to find out stuff about her.
I reacted the same with a past friend of mine and he ended up ending the friendship because I was too intrusive. I dont think my therapist would terminate me unless she felt as if I was uncontrolable or if i drove by her house and she saw me...that might not be too good.
I need to know if i should be telling her about my obsessing. I know that if i bring this to her attention...she will trust me less and whereas I know I can tell her anything...I would be so embarressed to tell her that I know where she lives...she would be angry and I dont want this. But, I want to do what is right.
I am so ashamed of myself. IF she were to ever terminate me permantly, it will be so difficult because I am literally right across the street from her office. I am afraid that I would become more obsessed and I would call her non stop...knowing that she couldnt help me anymore..(im thinking to much into this) but im concerned. How should I talk to her about this or should i?
Should I just keep this to myself? Im not a bad person..I dont stalk people...I know im making myself seem bad but please dont hold this against me...I just need some help and advice. If there is anyone (counselor or therapist) out here that would be willing to chat via instant message my screenname is frackisback2004..i just need advice..im making myself so frustrated I know i should tell her but things are going so well...help me ..thanks.
Pandabear <><
Posted by Skittles on September 6, 2004, at 17:05:41
In reply to confession regarding therapist..., posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 16:10:17
Pandabear, let me start out by saying that nothing I put in this post is meant to diminish your pain. What you are feeling must be just terrible and I wish I had the magic words to make you feel better.
I simply don't think what you've done is bad in any way, shape, or form. You used public information and public property, etc. If it makes you feel better to know it, I have used the Internet to find: where T lives, husband's name, line of work and office location, names of children and where they go to school, where she goes to church, her maiden name, wedding date, and her parents' names and where they live (different city). And I didn't even have to get creative to find it. I have driven by her house 1 time and that was just to see what it looks like. See, if there was ever an information freak, it's me!!
I think the reason I have this "need" to know is that this person is learning about the very core of who I am and giving me advice and I know nothing about her. Is she like me or very different from me? What are her moral and religious convictions? It's important to me to put my well being in the hands of someone who has a similar belief system. As a Christian, I wouldn't want to be counselled by an atheist. I wouldn't want a single person giving me marital advice or a non-parent telling me how to parent. The things I've learned are helping me to feel more connected to her. I would NEVER use the information in any way other than that. She shows me a great deal of respect, and I respect her privacy and will not interfere in her life when she is not at the office. I won't even leave a message with her answering service after hours b/c I feel like it's HER family time and I don't want to intrude on that.
Still, I wouldn't tell her I've done it. We are relatively new together and I think it's highly likely that she wouldn't feel as comfortable as I do about it (grin). After all, she can't really know what's in my head, only I have that information. So, since I know I would never DO anything with the information, I don't feel bad about it and I don't feel bad about not telling her. It's already served the purpose for which I felt I needed it.
Panda, it doesn't sound like you'd do anything with the information either. It seems that maybe actually drving by is what makes you feel the worst? If so, maybe you could try to stop? I don't know what happened with your other friend, but maybe you could think back to what went wrong there and try not to repeat the behavior with your T? Or maybe just tell your T that you are feeling obsessive about her and leave it at that? Could the obsession be the thing that's really bothering you, and not the information you have about her?
If anyone thinks I'm way off base, please DO chime in.
Posted by LG04 on September 6, 2004, at 18:27:54
In reply to Re: confession regarding therapist... » Pandabear, posted by Skittles on September 6, 2004, at 17:05:41
Pandabear, I too drove by my therapist's house. I told her about it. She wasn't angry at all. She said she understood. I wanted a picture in my head of where she lives, where she is when we are speaking on the phone, etc. She said she could see that it helped me to internalize her. Also I was ready to learn this about her (what her house looks like). For me, it was also in connection to knowing that we would probably be terminating soon. I think that's what is driving your obsession. It's like your therapist is soon going to become unavailable to you and you are trying to grasp at anything you can to hold on to her. The obsession is a symptom of something deeper...for this reason, I think it could be very helpful to tell your therapist. But I hesitate to give advice b/c I do not know your therapist or your relationship with her.
I do know that I was terrified to tell my therapist. First I had driven in her neighborhood and when I finally told her that, she was totally okay with it. but driving by her house felt like a worse intrusion. I was terrified (and embarassed) to tell her about it. But finally I did b/c I felt I was holding in a secret from her and it was interfering in my feelings of intimacy and closeness with her. It was very helpful for me to tell her, and I haven't had a need to go by her house since.
I was also worried about her feeling intruded upon, and I told her this, how guilty I felt about it. And she asked me, "Did you drive by in order to be intrusive?" And I said, of course not. And she said, so then it wasn't intrusive. She understood my motives and that made a big difference.
Let us know what happens. But really, you are not a bad person. I've seen other threads here where people did this, and also googled their therapist (which I also did, and actually I didn't tell her about this, but I feel okay about not having told her), and so on. For me, it was always when I wanted to feel closer to her somehow, to know her better.
Rest assured, what you did is not at all unusual.
Laurie
Posted by caraher on September 6, 2004, at 18:36:01
In reply to Re: confession regarding therapist... » Pandabear, posted by Skittles on September 6, 2004, at 17:05:41
Hmmm... I think Skittles and Panda are talking about significantly different motivations. Skittles' investigation seems motivated by a desire for more background on T. A lot of that info seems like stuff you could actually just ask about in an initial visit - are you married, do you have kids, my religion is X and I don't want a T who might not work within the framework of these beliefs. Some therapists might refuse to answer some of these questions but they're all pretty natural and reasonable questions to have.
But Panda wants T to be a friend. That's an understandable desire, especially once you've formed the kind of necessarily intimate bond you have with your T. I won't condemn that desire for a moment - in fact my heart aches for you.
But... even though you are not a stalker you certainly acknowledge "stalker-like" behaviors. (Otherwise there'd be no need for the disclaimer!) I don't know whether or not you should tell her about this. But I think it does constitute a kind of breach of the patient-T relationship, in that the T does have the right to privacy, and to choose what to disclose about herself. If there's something you feel you have to know about her ask yourself if you'd feel comfortable just asking her. And if not, think about *why* not. If you wouldn't there should be a strong presumption that you should not engage in your own private investigation...
In the interest of full disclosure, I've Googled my T, mostly to see what her research was, and checked to see if her home number was listed in the phone book. (It wasn't, at least not under the name I know her by.) I like her but I don't spend any time wishing she were a close friend...
You could probably broach the topic without "confessing all" by frankly admitting your wish that you could have a friendship relationship with her. You could then have a discussion of what is and is not possible and, more importantly, talk about how to manage your actions in light of that. This is really all I think you need to do, because it's the root of the behavior you're rightfully hesitant to describe.
Posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 19:09:23
In reply to Re: confession regarding therapist..., posted by caraher on September 6, 2004, at 18:36:01
Thank you to all of your posts. I can relate to every single one of them. I have looked her up in the phone book...(she isnt there). I found out where she lived beacuse I was online and I googled her name to see if it would come up and it did...(it also included her address). I have talked with her about how I wanted us to be friends but that it could never happened and she agreed just because it tends to make the therapist patient relationship harder. I invited her last year to come to a special service at my church and she declined because she was going out of town but she also had told me that she usually wont do things unless she can be a "number in the crowd"...meaning that she wouldnt be noticed. SO basically, she cannot be involved with me outside of therapy.
My therapist and I have a great relationship I have been going to her since 2002 and we get along great...but I just feel really awkward about this. I would HATE for her to notice me driving by her house or something. I do wonder about her religious background, her marital status and family status but i didnt think it was appropriate to ask so i never have...the only personal thing I know about her is that she has 3 dogs...The thing that clinches the most is that she told me a year or so ago that had we met outside of therapy...we would be really good friends...and this was great to hear but it only makes my obsessing worse because I know how she feels...
this is part of why i worry about saying anything to her bc I dont want her to change the way she thinks about me.
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2004, at 19:50:25
In reply to confession regarding therapist..., posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 16:10:17
I think you need to be very careful about telling her specifics. It widely varies with the therapist how well it's taken. I talked about posters describing driving by their therapists houses a long time ago, and my therapist said it wouldn't be a problem for him. He understood the motivation of wanting to be close to a therapist, etc. He also let me know what he *would* consider a problem. He's pretty laid back, and I wouldn't even dream of doing anything he said would be a problem. But he said it *very* carefully, like he thought that my talking about other posters doing it was a prelude to telling him I had done it myself. I hadn't (at the time anyway), and found it both reassuring and slightly amusing.
Later he openly displayed his address, I saw it was only a few blocks by my home, and I *did* drive by to see if it was likely that he'd be taking a short cut in front of my house. Luckily it's not likely because there are no through streets. I did it while he and his family were out of town, and I told him about it afterwards - a while afterwards. And I didn't even drive in front of his house; I could tell which house was his, but I turned on a side street before getting to it. I was positive that I would be caught somehow if his trip was cancelled or something. :)
I think more important, and certainly more important to talk about, is how badly you want contact with her as a friend rather than as a therapist. I know you know it's not going to happen, but it's clearly causing you pain. I'm not sure therapists are doing their clients a favor when they tell them things like your therapist told you. I'm glad my therapist and I are so clearly incompatible as far as friendship is concerned.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 6, 2004, at 20:08:09
In reply to Re: confession regarding therapist... » Pandabear, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2004, at 19:50:25
I'm in the camp that you did no wrong, especially because you intended no harm and were acting out of your own needs. In my opionion, that is definitely fodder for therapy, but as others have said, it's hard to know how your therapist would react. It seems they have different levels of comfort about privacy. Still, I agree with LG04 that this seems to be an attempt to try to internalize her, which makes a lot of sense right now.
Termination or even cutting back is so darned hard. Even if you feel really ready, the nature of the therapeutic relationship almost guarantees a feeling of some kind of loss. I am assuming that my own termination will be bittersweet. I know I've felt that with many of the clients I saw for a year or so last year. There was one in particular I really thought I could be friends with. I don't know if she felt that way too, but it made it really hard to terminate for me, and I spent time in supervision processing my feelings with my supervisor about this.
I also know that if I were not my T's client, we would likely have a colleagial relationship. I know I would really like him as a a fellow therapist and perhaps a friend, although he is somewhat older than me. I know I will need to spend a great deal of time on this with him at the end. If he had acknowledged similar feelings early into the therapy relationship, I think I would obsess about that, too. And I think it would hurt more. That being said, I kind of hope he says something like that in the end. We'll see.
It's so darned complex, isn't it? Even if it's a natural termination, which is supposed to be the best kind, it still is a loss to process.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 20:08:35
In reply to Re: confession regarding therapist... » Pandabear, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2004, at 19:50:25
Im just worried that my therapist will wonder how I found her house...I know for a fact that we couldnt be friends outside of therapy because she told me...aparently there is a rule that you have to have no contact with your therapist for a matter of 20 years before you can have a "relationship/friendship with him/her...so basically if i were to completely stop therapy tomorrow...I would be in my 40s and she would be in her 70s.....thats a while from now...
Posted by terrics on September 6, 2004, at 21:46:08
In reply to confession regarding therapist..., posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 16:10:17
Hi Panda, If I were you I would talk to her about everything BUT driving passed her house and looking in the phone book. It is hard to restain from doing these things. I drove passed a former therapist's office once and I am glad she did not see me. We didn't end on a good note. If you want to IM I'd be willing because I understand the feeling. I am not a therapist, but I am a psych nurse. terrics
Posted by Speaker on September 6, 2004, at 22:01:23
In reply to Re: confession regarding therapist... » Pandabear, posted by Skittles on September 6, 2004, at 17:05:41
Skittles,
You and I have a lot in common about therapists and wanting to be counseled by someone who "knows" not just reads. I am also a Christian and it is important that the counselor is a believer. My question is how did you find out all that info? I have googled my T and told him and he was fine with that but it only told me about a group he is involved with.
Thanks,
Speaker
Posted by fallsfall on September 6, 2004, at 22:17:10
In reply to confession regarding therapist..., posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 16:10:17
I had one therapist who freaked when I googled her, and one therapist who thought it was just fine.
One thing in your post was interesting to me: "I reacted the same with a past friend of mine and he ended up ending the friendship because I was too intrusive." This makes me think that if you can talk about it, it might be important.
Posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 22:21:32
In reply to Re: confession regarding therapist... » Pandabear, posted by fallsfall on September 6, 2004, at 22:17:10
Your saying if I can talk about it...it is worthy my mentioning to my therapist?...(just trying to clarify) :) Im so embarressed to talk about this because we have been doing soooooo well. But I just started obsessing this weekend...
Posted by Skittles on September 6, 2004, at 22:36:35
In reply to Question » Skittles, posted by Speaker on September 6, 2004, at 22:01:23
Well, I guess I just lucked out. I started with google and entered her name and my city. One of the hits was for her church where she had written something of a devotional. It mentioned the names and ages of her children, her husband's name and the city where her parents lived. With her husband's name, I found them in the phonebook. Based on the ages of her children, I guessed about what year she might have married and searched our state's online marriage database and that's how I found the maiden name. Then I searched that name in the parents' city - uncommon name and small town. I used the kids names and our city name and found some stuff about them at a particular school.
I hope I am not a complete freak, but it makes me feel reassured knowing what kind of family she comes from (based on the stuff I found about her parents), that she is probably a very good/involved parent (b/c the school where her kids are has a solid reputation of good homes with nurturing parents) and that her religious beliefs and values are in line with mine (based on the information available about her church).
Posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 22:42:39
In reply to Re: Question » Speaker, posted by Skittles on September 6, 2004, at 22:36:35
Would you think it would be alright for me to ask my therapist questions regarding her religion and family? Of course she wouldnt have to answer them if she didnt want to..i have had many people over the past 2 years ask me if she is a christian and I dont know..I believe that she is...but religion hasnt really come into the session...sometimes it did..but it mainly was coming from me...she did refer to the bible at times... There are just so many personal questions I want to ask her about herself...
Posted by Skittles on September 6, 2004, at 22:51:12
In reply to Re: Question » Skittles, posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 22:42:39
I guess it can't hurt to try. If it were me, though, I feel like I'd need to have a good explanation ready for WHY I wanted to know.
I know you're probably looking for a more definite answer, but you have a better idea how your T would respond than anyone. You could always preface your question with, "I'll understand completely if you aren't comfortable answering,....."
This is only a suggestion. Clearly (from reading my posts) I am NOT a wordsmith. Others will probably have far better ideas.
Posted by fallsfall on September 7, 2004, at 7:55:42
In reply to Re: confession regarding therapist... » fallsfall, posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 22:21:32
Oftentimes our relationships with out therapists mimic other relationships that we have had in the past. Before I went into therapy, I had a best friend. She was the one who encouraged me to see a therapist to begin with. I was very dependent on this friend - I always wanted to know where she was, what she was doing, I brought her dinner to her work so I could see her and she wouldn't be hungry. It was too intense.
When I started seeing the therapist, my friend backed away (because I WAS too intense), and I transferred the dependence onto my therapist.
You compared your curiosity about your therapist to the intrusive relationship you had with your friend. Clearly, the intrusiveness was a problem for your friend. Since you don't really talk about your friend being unreasonable (just like my friend wasn't unreasonable - it was *my* issue, not hers, though she had some issues of her own...), I would assume that you agree that you were too intrusive - that you would prefer not to get that intrusive with other people (because it would drive them away). If you are feeling that same intrusiveness with your therapist, then this would be a good time to explore why you have that need. With our therapists we can find out what the other person is really experiencing from us, and have a chance to try to explore the underlying reasons behind our issues. It really is a "therapeutic opportunity".
So (in theory), I would think that you should talk about this with your therapist. Can you talk about how the feelings are similar towards her to how they were with your friend?
I think that therapists are pretty used to talking about how their patients would like to be friends with them (but that it is not possible to do that). Talking about this with your therapist should be able to help this matter settle in your mind. Maybe you can get a better idea of what it is about her that makes you want to be her friend, then you can look for those qualities in other people. It sounds like she has good boundaries (i.e. telling you that it is not possible to be friends).
So, yes. I really do think that you should talk about both the need to find out about her and your desire to be friends with her.
HOWEVER. Different therapists are different. And different therapists react differently to patients' "research projects". I want to say that you should talk about what you *want*, but not talk about what you *did* until you know how she will react. But I know that if I told my therapist that I wanted to know where she lived, or about her children, or whatever that the first question out of her mouth would be "So, have you looked for this information?" or "What have you done about these needs?". And I know that I could never tell her that I had done nothing when I actually had done something. And I know that she would know in a second that I was trying to hide something from her. Like I said, I did have a therapist freak out on me about this stuff.
You could start talking about your friend and feeling intrusive and how that was a problem. Maybe start talking about the issue without talking about how you are feeling the issue with her. But with my therapists, I know it would get around to them.
So, in theory, I think that talking about it would be helpful to you. BUT it really does depend on your therapist, and how they feel about their privacy.
What kind of therapy does she do? Cognitive Behavioral, Psychodynamic, Humanistic? Sometimes I think that can make a difference.
You are asking a difficult question. I hope that you can get therapeutic benefit from this situation without it causing you undue pain.
Posted by shrinking violet on September 7, 2004, at 10:52:42
In reply to Re: confession regarding therapist... » Pandabear, posted by fallsfall on September 7, 2004, at 7:55:42
Hm, this is an interesting debate of sorts.
One thing comes to the forefront of my mind, though, Pandabear. You mentioned that you just started "obsessing" about your T this weekend. Did something happen over the past week (either in T or outside of it) that may cause you to need your T more? I've been seeing my T for over a year, and just over the past few weeks it's been a lot harder for me in-between sessions. My T thinks it might be because we're getting close to emotional stuff, or/and because she's giving me the emotional nurturance that I've never had. Perhaps something triggered this "neediness" you have for your T lately?
As far as whether to tell her about the information you've acquired about her....I dont know. In my case, I've "Googled" my T, but I've only found general info on her. Ironically, she tells me more stuff about herself than I could ever find online anyway. lol. I have her home number, I know what city she lives in, I know she's single, I know she's a Buddhist, etc. The only thing I don't have is her home address and, while I'd love to have it, the only way to get it would be to pay for it via one of those "people search" type sites (since she's unlisted) and I don't think I'd feel quite comfortable doing that, as I'm trying to respect her privacy. As someone else said, you know your T better than any of us; do you think she would react in a negative way?
Perhaps, though, you could talk about this subject in a casual way. I think you should process this subject in general with your T, especially as you mentioned that similar behavior has gotten in the way of other relationships. Perhaps talk about *that* with your T, and then feel her out by how she responds. If you still feel the need to "confess" to her, then you might have a better idea of how she might react given how she responds to the topic in general. Or/and you could also mention you are feeling like you "need" her more, and wonder why that is.
Good luck to you.
-SV
Posted by Raindancer on September 7, 2004, at 17:44:26
In reply to confession regarding therapist..., posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 16:10:17
Please don't give yourself a hard time about driving past your T's house. The yearning for closeness can be very powerful - the trouble is that to do this often makes us feel more lonely, not less. I found out my T's address earlier in my therapy and having done so had such terrible guilt and gave myself such a hard time that it was easier to tell him than go on beating myself up. My greatest fear was that he would stop trusting me, but this didn't happen. He accepted it as something that had happened and pointed out that I hadn't harmed him in any way, nor did he believe I would. I think he felt I was more to be trusted as I had brought everything out into the open and was prepared to face any consequences.
You will know your T so you will know what feels best when you decide what to do. In fact I think we know our T's much better than some of their friends or relations, who know practical things about them but still may not have as close a relationship with them as we do.
When you terminate, could you and your T write to each other? This can be quite a comfort and I don't think it crosses boundaries. As far as i can tell it happens quite often. Don't let this upset you any more. Either tell your T or put it behind you. You haven't done any harm to anyone (except perhaps yourself) and all that happened was that you proved you were a human being. Take care. I know how much it hurts.Wishing you comfort and many hugs.
Raindancer
Posted by Susan47 on September 7, 2004, at 18:40:58
In reply to Re: Question » Skittles, posted by Pandabear on September 6, 2004, at 22:42:39
Just reading this thread and feeling really uncomfortable. Fact is, the less I knew about my therapist the more comfortable I felt in therapy. I really wouldn't want to know stuff about where he lives, car he drives, etc. It just seems intrusive, IMO, to be finding stuff out about someone without their permission or their knowledge. Mind you, I used to work in a place where that was de rigeur, part of the job description (police work), so maybe I am just ultra-sensitive to that sort of thing. I would feel violated if I thought someone were watching me or getting info on me. Yuck. So it's probably best that a therapist *doesn't* know if a client does this sort of thing.
Posted by Susan47 on September 7, 2004, at 18:43:33
In reply to Re: Question, posted by Susan47 on September 7, 2004, at 18:40:58
al. I do understand the urges and I know sometimes it's impossible not to follow through, I know it can be hell I've been there in the past. ((((everyone))))
Posted by Susan47 on September 8, 2004, at 20:27:08
In reply to Re: Question, posted by Susan47 on September 7, 2004, at 18:40:58
This is the end of the thread.
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