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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 21:59:27
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 21:36:34
I know exactly what you mean about needing to hear, "I'm still here" over and over again. And the smallest whisper of "promise?" always slips out and he always very seriously answers "promise!" So very young, isn't it?
He asked me today if I took out his picture last night when I was having such a hard time. I was surprised and said, "no, I put it away." He said I needed to let "her" (my younger self) see it, hold it, as much as she needs to. That it was OK with him for her to want to do that. That is why he gave it to her.
I think you are right, the fear that unfolds with these memories is fresh and real. And I'm terrified of getting into trouble for talking about all of this, at the same time NEEDING to talk about all this. We talked today about this war going on between the adult and child parts and how much both needed him, but needed different things. He said again that he can handle the push/pull. He told the adult she was doing an amazing job hanging in there, that most people would have quit therapy by now. He told the child it was totally OK to be weepy in therapy, that he knew she was scared but that he would take care of her. It was really important that both of these parts heard him today. Really, really important.
Are you able to let your younger self talk to your adult self yet? It is an interesting exercise.
Posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 22:02:10
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » daisym, posted by fallsfall on September 1, 2004, at 21:26:47
Thanks Falls. And thanks for being around last night, like you always are when I need you. I should pay you too. :)
I was thinking maybe I needed to tell him that I didn't mean to imply that he was ever nonchalante about my feelings. But your post made me feel better. And your right, I'm sure he knows where all this was coming from.
Posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 22:05:54
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by gardenergirl on September 1, 2004, at 21:27:05
Maybe that is why I've been having such a hard time...I haven't been shoe shopping for a month! I'm sure you are just as sensitive with your clients, GG. I'm glad you don't mind me sharing as much as I do. I tend to get wordy, sorting things out for myself as I write. I go back and reread things and think, he is pretty good at this, isn't he?
So, what do your new shoes look like? High heels, I hope!
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 21:59:27
No, I haven't been able to do that yet, although my analyst often asks if she can speak to me. I speak a lot to her; he has been encouraging me to understand and comfort her; when I feel at my most upset, I can almost always calm down quite a lot if I try to think of things from her point of view. I often imagine consoling her by stroking her blonde pigtails. It's almost a sure way to fall asleep!
She doesn't speak yet, but she does speak in dreams. In them, she has rearranged the analyst's office, bringing in her favorite toys and animals from her childhood, changed the couch to a different location, etc. Then she said, "OK! Now I'm at home. Now I can tell you things, and it will help me a lot". And she does, a bit more, each day.
I never thought of myself as having any kind of ego state or dissociative disorder! It's so easy to have one and not know it! Do you think other people here might have them, but that their therapists don't work in that way, and so they don't find out? I've always wondered about that, as I think it's just you and me who write about it.
Posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 22:42:42
In reply to Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
I think mine does, finally. It took him a long time to understand it fully. But I'm reasonably sure he now does.
But then I didn't tell him as directly as you did, and I didn't tell him all in one session. I'm not sure I ever said it directly. But I said it indirectly often enough for him to understand it (finally).
Keep in mind that my therapist is nowhere near as nurturing and supportive as yours is. It's difficult for me to talk about the depth of my attachment to him because I always had some idea that it would scare him. And G*d's honest truth, I think it did at first. Or it would have (even more than it actually did) if I hadn't danced around it a lot. He must have gotten some supervision or personal therapy or something, because he seems ok with it now.
And now I'll confess my awful secret. Sometimes when *he* mentions how important he is to me, the rational side of me, the grown up side, giggles at his self importance. Which isn't at all fair, since it's true. And since the rational side of me has cringed enough when *I* have told him how important he is to me (however indirectly I've done it). Maybe it just sounds funny to hear, even if it's true.
Posted by lucy stone on September 1, 2004, at 23:16:40
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
>
> I never thought of myself as having any kind of ego state or dissociative disorder! It's so easy to have one and not know it! Do you think other people here might have them, but that their therapists don't work in that way, and so they don't find out? I've always wondered about that, as I think it's just you and me who write about it.I think that if I went to either of your therapists I might be diagnosed with an ego state or dissociative disorder. My analyst does not work that way, and he doesn't like diasnoses very much so he wouldn't express it that way. He will point out that sometimes I am feeling little and seeing him as big, but he doesn't encourage it. It fact, he says that he will never infantalize me, and I know that he would not work with a younger self. When I am feeling like that he relates it to experiences I had when I was a child and we explore what it was like for me then and how it still influences my life, but he does not treat me like I am still little. He tries to make me see that the things I want and I feel little are not possible for adults to have, and that by looking for them I am crippling myself. I have a fantasy of a big, strong person taking care of me, of having him wrap his arms around me and say that everything will be OK, but my analyst will not play a role in it. He says that it wouldn't work, because I can never have that. It's the Golden Fantasy, for those who have read "In Session". He says that as long as I am looking to fulfill the fantasy I will never get what I need from the real relationships in my life and I believe he is right about that. He was and is a rock for me, always there, always supportive, always accessable, very kind and compassionate, but as one adult to another, not as adult to a younger self. It is a very different approach. I know that some of the things that Daisy's T does, like insisting that she show up for sessions, giving pictures and encouraging her to look at them, offering to call while on vacation, he would also never do. If I say that I might not come to a session he would ask why, but he would emphasize that it is my decision to come or not come, that I am capable of making that decision on my own. It is his way of encouraging me to be responsible for my own self and my own treatment. Very different indeed.
Posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 23:31:52
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
I think there are a few others who are dealing with this too...Antigua and Aphrodite I know for sure. And Dinah too. (Little daisy talks to little Dinah a lot.) I find it interesting that your child-self will rearrange furniture in your dreams. It seems like she is telling you what she needs to be comfortable in therapy, which is great. I don't know if I've identified different age states in my dreams. But I definitely know that the 3am watchfulness is my younger self.
I don't know how to soothe her yet, I still wish a lot that she would act more mature in therapy. The adult part of me struggles to keep control and censor what she says. My therapist keeps wishing I could find a way to see her strength. I just hear her sadness and neediness.
And I'm like you...shocked to be talking about myself in pieces and parts. Who knew?
Posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 23:38:07
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
It's not just the two of you. :)
I really have been obtuse, haven't I?
Posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 23:48:50
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by lucy stone on September 1, 2004, at 23:16:40
My therapist wouldn't do what Daisy's therapist does either. Though thankfully he's willing to speak to whoever shows up for therapy. But he doesn't talk any *differently* - well, maybe a bit differently, but only insofar as he knows what motivations to use, not as in being more nurturing or anything. He's really big on my being responsible for my own therapy. He's very clear about the professional nature of our relationship. He's not particularly nurturing. I envy Daisy her therapist a lot. :)
Posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 23:53:59
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » daisym, posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 22:42:42
Dinah,
I still flinch sometimes when he notes how attached to him I am, or how much I need him. But not as much these days. He says it in such a way that it is not only expected but like it is a good thing. And it is definitely easier to admit these feelings and figure out what I need to feel safe.I'm still shocked when my therapist talks directly to my younger self and she responds. The flood of emotions shakes me and I have a hard time editing what she wants to say. There is a powerful urgency sometimes, like she senses a window of opportunity that will only be open for so long.
It is nice that you understand so well.
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 0:09:39
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 23:31:52
I actually prefer the term "emotional Dinah" or "real Dinah" or what I usually use in person "Dinah (pointing at my stomach as opposed to Dinah pointing at my head)", although the latter is hard to do in writing. :)
For shorthand and convenience I might use capital and lowercase letters, but while I might use a photo of me age 12 or 13 to denote the self image of me (pointing at my stomach), and while I (pointing at my stomach) have a real objection to growing up, I don't really think of it as an age related thing so much as an emotional/rational thing. Well, I (pointing to my stomach) like to think of it as a real/fake thing, but I (pointing to my head) am not crazy about that one, so the compromise is emotional/rational me or me (pointing to my stomach) and me (pointing to my head).
And now I have you totally confused, should I ask if you have any preferences? I probably use little Daisy because I heard it elsewhere, but if you prefer a different way of referring to yourself, just let me know. :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:20:35
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by lucy stone on September 1, 2004, at 23:16:40
What you said is interesting, Lucy. There are so many different ways to get better.Your analyst is working in a standard, traditional way, and you have made some great changes (from reading your previous posts). When I was 20, I also went to a traditional analyst for three years; he worked just the way yours does, and I got SO much better. I did a lot of grieving over the abuse and lack of love and support in my childhood, but we mainly concentrated on growth of my adult self. He did not want regressions, which my present analyst does want.
I really stayed quite well, through marriage, the birth of my son and a good career life. I had the wonderful feeling that I was meeting challenges successfully and growing personally all during this time; I always remembered my wonderful first analyst, and kept in touch with him- he was a very important, internalized part of me. However, when my mother and father died, I quite suddenly developed a very severe depression, with suicidal thoughts; for the first time in my life, I really needed anti-depressants. That's why I'm in analysis again; I've been doing very different things with this analyst, as you probably know! But different as this experience is, it's also tremendously valuable; I probably needed to do both at different times in my life- this one almost seems like something one has the privilege of doing when older.
The first analysis seemed to move smoothly towards growth, independence and increased personal fulfilment. This one is more all over the place- sometimes I think, what am I DOING? It's not so great for one's adult life to keep regressing! But, in a year and a half, I've overcome the depression almost completely (I take just 37.5 mg. of Wellbutrin now). In my adult life, things are changing in subtle ways- more confidence in my career abilities than I have ever had, more spontaneity and joy in day-to-day things, better acceptance and liking of myself.
My analyst told me that doing an analysis that includes exploring dissociative states is probably the most thorough kind that one can do. I guess he thought it was the correct thing to do, because I had *done* the standard analysis, and never lost any of it's benefits. He personally thinks that everyone has dissociated states, but that most people do not need to explore them. He doesn't look for them in every patient, though I guess he feels they are there!
Posted by daisym on September 2, 2004, at 0:26:11
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by lucy stone on September 1, 2004, at 23:16:40
Lucy,
I want to clarify without sounding defensive.
When I say my therapist "insists" that I come, it usually goes like this:
"I think you should come and we should talk about what you are feeling. You know me, I think we should talk about whatever is going on. I want you to come."
I've expressed to him before that I need him to advocate for the parts of me that need and want therapy. Because the part of me that thinks I should be stronger and do it myself looms large.
I need to be reminded that it is OK to be doing this work. He knows I would interpret "it is your choice" as "I don't care what you do."I guess that is why therapy is such an individual process. I have to learn to trust another person with the damaged parts of myself. To learn that someone can know this stuff and still care about you. We've talked about my perception that no one, irl, really can handle knowing how emotionally unstable I feel, they would be burdened with feeling like they had to fix it. I don't want that. Yet he points out that until I allow myself to trust others with my emotions, all of them, I will be missing something huge from my relationships. I know this, I feel it already. I just can't risk the vulnerability yet. I'm practicing with him.
I also think that in 99% of my life I'm not only the "adult" but I'm the adult in charge. He refuses to allow only this strong front which crowds out the wounded child. But he never makes me feel childish. He just accepts the childlike parts.
I do sound defensive, don't I? I guess it is because I've never let myself be this vulnerable with anyone before and I still question the wisdom of this dependency off and on. No one has ever nurtured my soul like this. What a sad realization that is.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:33:33
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 23:38:07
I guess that I'm the obtuse one. You HAVE been mentioning different Dinahs! I wasn't sure if you meant it in the way my analyst means it- as an unconscious, separated- off self which wasn't able to join the conscious me in the growing up process. I somehow thought that you were referring to sort of co-equal, but different, parts of your adult conscious self. I'm jealous of Daisy's therapist, too- mine is great, but he doesn't do or say some of the extra-ordinary things that hers does.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:55:49
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 23:31:52
Absolutely. Who knew? What we are all trying to do is so difficult, and brings up (in me- in us all) so many emotional storms, that I am coming to really value being able to talk about it here on PB. It doesn't work to do it IRL. At first, I felt that it was a pleasant, sociable thing to do, but now I am starting to feel that we are all playing small but real roles in one another's struggle towards health. Makes it pretty darn valuable!
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 1:23:37
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:33:33
How about somewhere in between?
There's a rather complex sharing of consciousness now, and one that is totally unlike anything I've come across in my typically extensive research. So I'm neither fish nor fowl as far as I can find from books, articles, etc. Which of course makes me feel like I can't possibly be the way I am.
But at one time, it was a far more unconscious or dissociated or whatever, arrangement. I just learned how to access the dissociated ego state fairly easily and worked out a time share sort of agreement. It wouldn't be discreet or prudent of me to discuss "equality". :)
To some extent, I'm happy to downplay the dissociation aspect. There is a fair amount of prejudice against it, even within the mental health community. My experience doesn't fit neatly into any box, so I don't need to put a name to it. Even my therapist varies widely in how he describes his understanding of it. I usually use "well defined ego states" if I must describe it. The inner child explanation has a cultural acceptance to it, despite my indignant response to being called an inner child. Or as the EMDR therapist called it "an archaic inner child remnant" which didn't go over very well as it was said to the "remnant"'s face. I go through periodic activist phases where I stand up proudly and say I'm a dual-ego-state individual and proud of it, but I usually sit down again very quickly. :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 1:33:08
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 1:23:37
Oh, you gave me a giggling fit, and I woke up my sleeping husband! The only place I stand up at all is here, and I sit down pretty quickly, too!
Posted by lucy stone on September 2, 2004, at 8:37:37
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » lucy stone, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:20:35
Well, I'm not doing a "standard, traditional" analysis. I am doing a modern analysis. My analyst says that the only people he knows that do more than one analysis are ones that did a traditional one the first time. It's just that I do not think that my analyst believes that everyone has dissociated states. I suspect that he would say that some people have them but everyone. I think I will ask him about this today, I am interested in his response. I have talked here about what I call the "other Lucy", which is the public face I use in stressful situations, but when I talk use that term with my analyst, he always brings me back to what I am doing, why I need to act in a different way in stressful situations, what I need to do to use my authentic self at those times. It is indeed interesting how different approaches for for different people, and how important it is for a patient and therapist to be a good match.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 9:36:35
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 22:05:54
Gotta go shoe shopping, Daisy. Do what works!
The are a medium heel with a center seam on the toe with contrast stitching. Not too pointy but stylish.Take care, sweets!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 9:49:47
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
Pfinstegg,
> She doesn't speak yet, but she does speak in dreams. In them, she has rearranged the analyst's office, bringing in her favorite toys and animals from her childhood, changed the couch to a different location, etc. Then she said, "OK! Now I'm at home. Now I can tell you things, and it will help me a lot". And she does, a bit more, each day.That is such a sweet image. Thank you for sharing it.
>
> I never thought of myself as having any kind of ego state or dissociative disorder! It's so easy to have one and not know it! Do you think other people here might have them, but that their therapists don't work in that way, and so they don't find out? I've always wondered about that, as I think it's just you and me who write about it.I had an experience recently when I was meditating about a metaphor for my pain. It included a volcano (don't ask!) and as I was sitting there, all of a sudden, my five year old self came up and tried to pull me away, saying "You'll get in trouble." I did the same thing you did...I sat with her and stroked her hair and told her things would be okay. I told my T about it because it was a bit freaky to me. I was concerned that it meant that my ego was fragmenting rather than getting stronger. He never mentioned disorder and actually believed it was good progress. That I was able to parent the child me that did not get that caring and nurturing in the past.
Now he doesn't work to try to talk to her, although he did mention we could analyze why it was that age, why she looked like she did, etc. But he focused on the self-soothing aspect and seemed pleased.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 10:07:15
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 1:33:08
Posted by Aphrodite on September 2, 2004, at 11:00:24
In reply to Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
Wow! This thread took off in no time, and I have so much to say. I really want to respond to everyone, but I have such little time.
So, as my T would encourage, I will just say what is on the forefront of my mind and that is the issue of my T advocating for young Aphrodite. The two child-like ego states that are wounded and frightened and need a lot of support need therapy. However, the adult, who foolishly thinks she's just fine, has to bring them. My T, then, has the difficult balancing act of helping the children without offending the adult me or causing me to flee. If he didn't address my younger parts, I would have left a long time ago and still carried the sadness of abuse and neglect with me.
My point is that it has nothing to do with therapeutic orientation. In order to literally save my adult life, he has to address the younger lives.
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 11:15:26
In reply to Yikes! I'm late!, posted by Aphrodite on September 2, 2004, at 11:00:24
I'm hoping the subject isn't closed. :)
"However, the adult, who foolishly thinks she's just fine, has to bring them. "
That statement made me snort diet coke out my nose. It's soooo much the way I think. :)
I was trying unsuccessfully last night to say some of what you said. I finally gave up without posting. I understand that therapists have to be careful about creating ego states. But if something already exists, ignoring it or treating it like it's a shameful thing can't possibly be helpful. If my therapist had refused to speak to my emotional self, or punished me overtly or covertly for speaking, I would have stopped speaking, but I wouldn't have disappeared. It probably would have been immensely harmful in that I would have gotten pretty rage-filled and self destructive at this new sign that I wasn't acceptable.
As it was, I had to talk around the subject for years because my therapist (tho he didn't say anything) was clearly uncomfortable with the concept. I think he was afraid of creating alters or escalating the number or something. I had to pretty directly confront him with how difficult his reluctance was making therapy for me before I was able to be really open with him. So he clearly didn't create anything in me. But thank G*d he didn't try to "discourage" me either.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 11:34:09
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by lucy stone on September 2, 2004, at 8:37:37
You are right. I misspoke. I didn't mean to say you are having a "standard, traditional" analysis; I was trying to say, rather, that I think you are having a modern, interactive,more usual form of analysis because childhood sexual and physical abuse are probably not issues in your past. If they are, I would be wrong on that, too, but I don't think you have mentioned them. Therefore, the question of dissociation would not come up. I am the one having a slightly unusual analysis by an analyst who sees mostly people who have serious abuse issues. I think everyone who speaks here of having some degree of dissociation- not to an obvious degree, like in DID, but to some degree, unconsciously, has a history of abuse in their pasts,
Posted by Aphrodite on September 2, 2004, at 11:39:12
In reply to Re: Not late!! » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 11:15:26
I never pictured you as someone snorting coke, but you just never know about people:)
I think you hit the mark about any dismissal of these other states setting off destructive thoughts or behaviors. I know that one of my adult parts, a very crictical one, can be very abusive to the little girl. If my T dismissed the little girl, he would be collaborating with this abusive adult who would lash out at her in anger and embarrassment.
Have you ever considered, Dinah, how far along you've brought your T professionally? Think of how many "emotional" sides of others he can now address because he understands. You should get some free sessions or something.
I feel like I'm training my T sometimes. I think I can be quite a challenge:) I have only one friend who knows about therapy because she is a former therapist. She swears up and down he must be writing a paper, if not a book, on me.
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