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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2004, at 15:18:33
I think I have figured out what the transference with my therapist is mimicking. I find him extremely critical, it seems like he changes the rules all the time and expects me to know the new rules without telling me, I try to anticipate what will be helpful in therapy (i.e. what does he want?) but often I don't guess right and feel like I have done the "wrong" thing, it feels very important that I please him.
I told him an analogy today. It is like I'm afraid that I will be on a detour and end up driving over a cliff. I am relying on him to tell me what turns to take (though I am driving in the car alone). I describe to him what I see, and he figures out where I am and where I should go. But there are times when I am describing where I am to him and he says "You shouldn't be on that road!". If I had been able to more accurately describe where I was, then he would have been able to give me better directions.
The connection is with my parents (yes, I know, this is not such a surprise). He is playing my father's role, and I am in my mother's role (usually I identify more closely with my father).
This is what life is like between my parents (Or "More than you ever wanted to know about Falls' parents"):
Lunch: Every day at 12:00 they eat lunch. My mother gets a collection of things out of the refrigerator: lunch meat (assorted), cheese, lettuce (a leaf taken off the head and rinsed in the sink), mayonnaise, bread, mustard. Pickles. A container of salad that he pre-made, salad dressing. A plate, knife, bowl, fork. Two packages of cookies. These are put on the counter so that my father can make his sandwich and put salad in the bowl with salad dressing. She tells him when his "things" are ready so that everything will be there when he gets to the counter. She also will bring a collection of fruit to the table with her, and he chooses a piece of fruit when he has finished his sandwich and salad.
The conversation goes like this:
M "Dad, it is time to make your lunch"
D "Is it that time already? I have to finish this article that I'm reading."
M "I have sandwich-meat-1 or sandwich-meat-2, but you should probably finish the sandwich-meat-3 before we open sandwich-meat-2, so it doesn't go bad. Which kind of meat do you want?"
D "...I don't know..."
M "Are you coming?"
He comes to the counter.
D "Where is the mustard? I have to have mustard!"
M "It's right here, behind the mayonnaise."
D "How can I make my sandwich if you haven't given me the lettuce? It needs to be rinsed before I can put it on my sandwich. Comeon, [derogatory pet name], I need the lettuce before the bread goes stale."
She stops making her own sandwich to rinse his lettuce.
D "[derogatory pet name], I wanted the Italian dressing today. Where is the Italian dressing?"
M "I put out these three because they are open already. The Italian hasn't been opened yet. But if you want the Italian, I will get it for you."
D "Well, yeah. I don't know why you didn't put it out in the first place."
He finishes getting his sandwich and salad ready and sits down at the table.
D "Well, aren't you going to eat, too??"
She puts the tops back on the jars, closes up the bags and puts everything back in the refrigerator.
He reaches behind him to get the cookies off the counter, but they are just out of reach. My mother has just sat down at the other end of the table.
D "I can't reach the cookies, you didn't put them in the right place"
She gets up and walks around the counter into the kitchen and brings him the cookies (which she doesn't eat...). He could have stood up, taken one step and reached them himself.
When he has finished eating, he takes his plate and bowl and reaches behind him to perch them on the counter behind them. He gets up, goes back to his chair and picks up his magazine again.
She finishes eating, clears the rest of the stuff off the table and cleans up the kitchen.Driving the car (he drives, she directs/navigates):
M "We are going to Sometown. We'll take route X and then route Y, no, route Z and then route Y. But there may be construction on route X, but there isn't really a better way to go."
D "So where do you want me to go?"
M "Turn left at the end of the driveway. Then turn right on ABC street - towards town"
...
M "We want to take route X north...There is the sign "Route X North - 1 mile"
M "You want the next exit, so you should get over a lane"
He really *does* need this level of direction (honest).
M "Route X North, OK?"
M "You are supposed to be turning here!"
D "Do I take the first Route X exit or the second one?? Why can't you tell me these things in time?"
M "Take the first one! Now!"
D "Geeze. You are supposed to be telling me what I need to do, you know... We almost missed that exit. If that other car had hit us it would have been your fault for not giving me enough notice that we needed to turn."
M "I know... Now we need to look for Route Z. It should be in 14 miles."She is completely powerless. Anytime he isn't happy, it is because "she messed up". When she has done everything right, but it doesn't end up right, she is the one who messed up. When she forgets something (like forgets to take the cheese out), she apologizes, but she is not forgiven. She is the sum of chores that she does for him minus the "mistakes" that she makes.
If she tries to stick up for herself, she is wrong (you can tell this because he calls her "Dumb-Dumb" at times like this). When she sees him doing something wrong ("Close the door on the woodstove, the fire is starting to throw sparks into the room"), she is overreacting and he had it all under control. I'm trying to think if he ever says "Gee, this is a good dinner." or "Thanks for bringing in the mail every day and sorting it into three piles like I like it".
I see my therapist as an impossible to please man who always knows more/better than I do. No matter how hard I try to anticipate what I "should" do, I invariably get it wrong. He tells me that he isn't feeling critical, that he doesn't think that I've done anything "wrong". But then I feel like I am "wrong" for seeing him as critical... Sigh.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 17:28:04
In reply to Transference Insight, posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2004, at 15:18:33
That is a wonderful insight. Good for you.
I love the way you wrote that, it was LOL knee-slapping time for me. Whose parents are those, everywoman's? You're not alone and I think you're brave for sticking with therapy, having felt your T was your critical father (do you feel this way about everyman? Because I certainly did for 40 years). Make sure you communicate your insight and he's really empathetic. I was so frightened of my male therapist that I tried to make him my puppet, I think.. ew, insight.
Posted by lonelygal on August 23, 2004, at 17:28:42
In reply to Transference Insight, posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2004, at 15:18:33
wow, fallsfall. you are really articulate. and your parents remind me so much of my grandparents. they are exactly the same.
if you are calling this transference, does that mean that you are acknowledging that he probably isn't trying to be critical and you are being hypersensitive OR are you still not sure if he is really in fact being critical and you were right to begin with?
regardless, i think it would be really hard to work with a therapist who you perceive as being 'not on your side'. i dont' really have any special insight, but i hope this relationship does get better for you.
Posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2004, at 18:50:25
In reply to Re: Transference Insight » fallsfall, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 17:28:04
Usually I play the strong role (I am usually my father, not my mother - as in this transference). So I don't have much experience being criticized. Maybe that is why it was hard for me to see - because it didn't occur to me to look to see if I was playing my mother's role.
I've tried to make my therapist my puppet (and he calls it just that), but he will have none of that. The only time he ever really said "There was some countertransference" was when I tried to tell him what to do. He does NOT like to be told what to do, or what to say.
I've stayed because I *know* he is good (skilled). And I had similar issues with my other therapist (so I know it is me, and not them). And we have resolved pieces of transference, so I know that it is possible to resolve it. I think the biggest thing is that I know it is my issue - not his. "Wherever you go, there you are" Changing therapists wouldn't fix my problem.
Posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2004, at 19:05:40
In reply to Re: Transference Insight » fallsfall, posted by lonelygal on August 23, 2004, at 17:28:42
> if you are calling this transference, does that mean that you are acknowledging that he probably isn't trying to be critical and you are being hypersensitive OR are you still not sure if he is really in fact being critical and you were right to begin with?
*** I know that he cares, and I know that he is skilled. After a session, I can sometimes look back and figure out that he probably didn't mean to be critical of me.
For instance, he said "If you pull a muscle doing yoga, you shouldn't stop doing yoga forever, just do it more gently"
I heard "you are an idiot for not going back to doing yoga"
The next session I was able to ask him "Did you mean that it might help me if I tried yoga again?"
He said "Yes, isn't that what you heard?"So, after the fact, I can put together what he said and what I know about his motivations and who he is - and I can come up with a more accurate assessment. But at the time, I am just devistated - too busy trying to survive to think about it rationally.
These days he will say something to me, and I'll get quiet and he'll ask "Did you hear that as a criticism?". Last week he said something and I said "Why shouldn't I hear that as a criticism?" He answered "Because it wasn't meant to be a criticism..."
I don't think that I could work with him if I didn't think he WAS on my side. He demonstrated very early on that he really did care and really did want to help. This is so clear to me, that I can go through months (yes, months) of agony with him, and still know that he cares. I know that he has my best interests at heart.
>
> regardless, i think it would be really hard to work with a therapist who you perceive as being 'not on your side'. i dont' really have any special insight, but i hope this relationship does get better for you.
>
*** Thanks. I do believe that it will get better when I am healthier - that the pain in the relationship is due to my illness, and that the only way to get healthier is to work it through with someone like him.
Posted by lucy stone on August 23, 2004, at 19:17:37
In reply to Transference Insight, posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2004, at 15:18:33
OMG, your parents are my in-laws. My husband, a highly succesfull professional man still hears the derogatory voice of his father in his head. He sees a T, which helps, but it is a long struggle. My heart goes out to you. I know these people.
Posted by shortelise on August 24, 2004, at 0:55:18
In reply to Re: Transference Insight, posted by lucy stone on August 23, 2004, at 19:17:37
congratulations. sounds like a really important insight. and your t sounds wonderful.
ShortE
Posted by tabitha on August 24, 2004, at 1:52:18
In reply to Re: Transference Insight » lonelygal, posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2004, at 19:05:40
That last bit reminds me of the mess I'm in lately with my T. I keep coming out of the sessions feeling OK, then I'll have a huge shame reaction to something she said. It just grows and grows. I know rationally that it isn't her intent to shame me, but that knowledge doesn't help interrupt the cycle very much.
I'm not clear on where it's coming from either.
So did/does your father treat you similar to how he treats your mom?
Posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2004, at 7:17:44
In reply to Re: Transference Insight, posted by lucy stone on August 23, 2004, at 19:17:37
It really is helpful to hear that so many people know people who act like my parents, and that it is difficult for them, too. Best of luck to your husband...
Posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2004, at 7:19:31
In reply to Re: Transference Insight fallsfall, posted by shortelise on August 24, 2004, at 0:55:18
Thanks.
I think that my therapist often doesn't sound "wonderful" on this board - gee, maybe that is because I always describe him as being very critical of me...
Posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2004, at 7:46:54
In reply to Re: Transference Insight » fallsfall, posted by tabitha on August 24, 2004, at 1:52:18
Hi Tabitha,
Yes, I think that you and I are in the same kind of boat in our therapies (or at least in boats on the same ocean?).
My dad has high expectations for everyone in the world, and a low tolerance for other people's "failures". But he doesn't expect me to "serve" him the way he expects my mom to. So I have fewer opportunities to "fail" him.
I see them mostly at their cottage on the lake. She is expected to have everything there that he might possibly want, and to make his schedule run properly (lunch at 12, quiet during his nap, spray the grill with Pam (the part of the grill that he will put the steak on - not the whole grill for just one piece of steak) and have the sink filled with water for when it is done and not be standing in the kitchen when he tries to bring the grill in to put it in the sink - though she has to have the rest of the meal hot and on the table when the steak is ready..., decide what the weather is so he will have the right coat with him). I am only required to show up at meals on time, not block his view of the TV, not make so much noise that he can't hear the TV (he would say to the room "Geeze, you guys are making so much noise that I can't hear 60 minutes" - so he doesn't attack me the way he attacks her, but I know that if I was around more that he would). He likes to see me and my children in small doses, so he tries to be accomodating - but for him "accomodating" means that his corrections of us are more general and less cutting - not that he doesn't correct us.
What I have found so far in working through transferences with my therapist is that he will start to point tendencies out to me - "You are very sensitive to criticism", "I didn't mean that to be critical", etc. I guess the next stage is when I start to confront him with his "meanness"/defend my actions - "I was trying to do the right thing, but I am always wrong", "What I did should have been OK with you because...". At this point he tells me how he saw the same interchange between us, and I start to get a sense that we really do experience these things differently. I absolutely believe that he always tells me the truth (he wouldn't say that he wasn't being critical if he felt critical). The next stage is when I can leave a session and think back over what he has said, decide that my interpretation really doesn't match who he is (caring and skilled), come up with a different scenario about how he was feeling, and ask him about it in the next session. Or sometimes just say that I was upset about his comments, and then he explains what he meant.
This process has been going on for 6 months or more on this "criticism" issue - and I see him 3 times a week.
With a previous issue (I felt he was angry at me), I was eventually able to *know* strongly enough that he simply wouldn't *be* angry in the way I was seeing. So I was able to "feel" that he wouldn't be angry (right then, in the session), and gradually I stopped perceiving the anger - but it probably morphed in to this criticism phase...
Posted by vwoolf on August 24, 2004, at 9:57:45
In reply to Re: Transference Insight » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2004, at 7:46:54
Everyone here sees their parents or grandparents in the description. I see myself. That is exactly what my marraige is like, and it's terrible!
I think I must have got into this situation because I couldn't believe I had any right to any good treatment. I suppose I have always lived other people's needs rather than my own, starting with my father's sexual needs. So I have served him, and pandered to his every desire, and even cut his toenails (believe it or not). And supported him financially. And still do.
For the past year I have been trying to change the pattern, and he has been having the most furious temper tantrums, has been insulting and abusive (verbally). I'm actually not sure how much longer I can take it. He will cling though because he depends on me for everything, and I feel totally trapped.
I guess my son is going through what you are. It makes me very sad.
Posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2004, at 12:24:26
In reply to Re: Transference Insight, posted by vwoolf on August 24, 2004, at 9:57:45
I'm sorry that you have to live this. And I wish you luck in your efforts to change things.
You might want to read "The Dance of Anger". It isn't really about anger, it is about how when one person in a relationship tries to change their behavior, that the other person has to change, as well. And often the other person is not interested in changing (your mention of temper tantrums made me think of this book).
Best of luck.
Posted by vwoolf on August 24, 2004, at 12:26:38
In reply to Re: Transference Insight » vwoolf, posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2004, at 12:24:26
Posted by Susan47 on August 24, 2004, at 15:39:44
In reply to Re: Transference Insight » vwoolf, posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2004, at 12:24:26
My father is a person who controlled me all my life; the hardest thing I ever did was piss him off and hurt him by breaking my connection, but I did it, and I want to tell you the reality wasn't as hard as I imagined. It was easier. And my life is getting better than I ever imagined it could be; it's internal changes, not so much external, although people like me more because now I no longer feel like I have to hide my real being. I just had no idea of the powerful negativity involved in our father/daughter relationship (yuck, it bothers me even to refer to myself as his daughter, yuck ew gross).
Sending (((((*))))) your way.
Posted by Susan47 on August 24, 2004, at 23:27:25
In reply to Re: Transference Insight » fallsfall, posted by Susan47 on August 24, 2004, at 15:39:44
Posted by vwoolf on August 25, 2004, at 4:24:02
In reply to Re: Transference Insight » fallsfall, posted by Susan47 on August 24, 2004, at 15:39:44
I wish I could do that. Unfortunately my father died when I was 11, and I believed I’d killed him. I hated him so much that I prayed and prayed for him to die. When he did, after a fall, I thought I would be arrested. So I have carried this for much longer than I should have, as well as huge amounts of guilt. Trouble is, I was always his favorite, the only one in the family he loved (a little bit too much), so I was very confused between wanting to be loved and hating him for what he was doing to me. I think my transference problems with my Pdoc were clearly around this ambivalence.
Posted by Susan47 on August 25, 2004, at 11:23:17
In reply to Re: Transference Insight » Susan47, posted by vwoolf on August 25, 2004, at 4:24:02
I'm so sorry this happened to you. It would have been really hard for me if my father died before I was able to see him for the person he was. I think I might be stuck in that emotional child, never having been able to grow up with him around to be able to see him as teens start to see their parents, then as adults the way we can integrate them into our experience and make judgments and decisions from that. It took me much too long as it was. I know people who've separated from their (living) parents at an earlier age and fared much better than I did. But, better late than never, right? I wish you all the best in getting through this. ((((vwoolf))))
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