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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 16:42:09
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine? » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 16:33:36
> I think you have a very thoughtful interpretation here. I could be wrong.
You're not wrong. <big wink>
Posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:34:01
In reply to Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :(, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 8:26:07
Dinah,
I'm sorry you're feeling conflicted! I'm glad you feel better after some sleep (I hope you do, anyway!) and I'm also glad that you posted your questions -- really glad. :)One good thing to see is the overwhelming response to your post! It appears that EVERYONE here feels somewhat the same way -- that we all have a 'fake' or 'public' persona in addition to the 'genuine' one, that we all kind of accept that this is normal, and that we also kind of hate that it has to be so.
Hopefully that is somewhat comforting, in a small way? Knowing that you're not alone in the weird spiralling thought mess of me vs. me?
I often think about the exact questions you asked. I too have the Genuine JenStar and the Visible JenStar. The visible one is sort of a mud-hut thatched-roof patchwork combination of the real me and the social me and the me-I-want-to-be and the me-of-this-moment-trying-something-new-let's-see-how-this-feels.
The more I get to know someone, the more I let out the real JenStar. I disclose bits little by little, and if the person doesn't run away screaming, I feel happy & want to disclose more. Sometimes I'm feeling risky or frisky and I loose a lot of truth all at once, just to see what happens. Of course, the other person is disclosing too...and sometimes I like the 'real them' and sometimes I don't. It's not always a match.
And I think that's why it is kind of scary to show the 'real me' -- that's it, that's the root, there's nothing else in there...and if you don't like it, wow - that's real rejection! I can't mask it by saying "it was just my fake persona I showed you, no big deal that you didn't like her"...it was a judgement about the real me. Scary.
I know what you're saying about the fake person being designed to fit into society. I do that too...and it sounds like we ALL do!
Sometimes I used to feel despair at work because I felt that the 'real' person was becoming too far buried under the lacquer of the 'socially acceptable' person. I didn't LIKE the lacquer (some people do like it...bully for them, right?) and started feeling suffocated. I wasn't confident that I could do as well at work if I let out the real JenStar, esp. after burying lots of her for so long. It would certainly be a shock -- at least -- that I was acting differently...and might not be taken well. Could be seen as signs of insubordination, inability to get along in a team, not playing along with company values, blah, blah.
I sometimes think about this stuff, gloomily and deeply, and then wake up the next day full of bright cheerful resolve and a devil-may-care attitude about the various personae. Screw them all! I think. Let's just enjoy the day! :)
I guess we can't think about this stuff all the time or we'd a)go nuts and b)overanalyse every action, movement, gesture, tone and word we use -- overthink and overplan -- until we go crazy.
But don't you think that maybe the fake Dinah doeesn't hide the real one as much as you want or think she does? I mean, I could be wrong (often am...) but when I look at people I've gotten to know: I'm not usually TOTALLY wrong about my impressions. I always learn more, find the depths, the fears, the funny side, the thoughts, the prejudices...but sometimes their fake self doesn't REALLY hide it as well as they think it does. I'm sure it's that way for me, too: Despite all my talk of the genuine and the social jen, they're probably closer than I know.
Anyway, whichever Dinah posts here -- I like her. Send in the rest of them, too, but I'm willing to bet that they're all smart and cool. :)
All the JenStar(s)
PS - About what your T said about finding the true self: Sometimes when I'm fake I get angry at myself. Why should I have to censor the true self just because I feel weird about a situation? I mean, it's not like I'm psychotic or dangerous or creepy in the 'real me' -- I'm maybe just different from what I think the social norm might be. It wouldn't be BAD to be true to myself -- so why don't I do it more?
When I do it more, I feel great and energized and strong and happy. At those times, I think: Hey! That felt good!
I can't answer the questions about your hubby liking the other Dinah better. But...you DID say that you were feeling esp. depressed lately...are you SURE that isn't getting in the way here - maybe making you feel that when it might not be true? Sometimes when I get depressed I think I'm unlovable or less lovable. It sounds like you kind of do the same. It's wrong of me to presume to make judgements about your relationship (pls forgive!) -- just wanted to say that you're a cool person. Don't let sadness & tiredness blot out your pretty Dinah-ness. :)
> It doesn't even make any sense to me. I was very tired. I think the Provigil that has upped my productivity to almost acceptable levels has also disturbed my sleep pattern.
Posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:37:44
In reply to Re: Being genuine » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on August 21, 2004, at 20:04:51
Mel,
I like this post of yours and the other follow-up you wrote. You put into words very succinctly what I wanted to say!JenStar
Posted by AuntieMel on August 22, 2004, at 19:02:49
In reply to Re: Being genuine » AuntieMel, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:37:44
Posted by henrietta on August 22, 2004, at 19:11:23
In reply to Re: Being genuine » AuntieMel, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:37:44
Taking a break from "Ordinary People" (DVD) to add another, less personal point of view. As a person who was called inauthentic from birth (good old mom), the question of authenticity has been one of the major intellectual and spiritual questions of my life..... but then, that's personal and I said I was going elsewhere, didn't I? (Remember being obsessed by Molier's "Alceste" in high school??)
Dictionary synonmyns: real, true, authentic, not counterfeit or artificial, sincere, frank honest.
I say it don't pay to be authentic. You kin become president of the UUUnited states by being
inauthentic, dishonest and ungenuine. Or you kin try to be honest to yourself and your experience and get trashed by those lovely elephants. Yeah, all and all I say being genuine ain't profitable.
Now back to a theatrical presentation of the consequences in personal, family life of never troubling to be authentic. (Ordinary People, on DVD at your local video store NOW.)
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 19:32:05
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » Dinah, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:34:01
When I read this, "One good thing to see is the overwhelming response to your post! It appears that EVERYONE here feels somewhat the same way -- that we all have a 'fake' or 'public' persona in addition to the 'genuine' one, that we all kind of accept that this is normal, and that we also kind of hate that it has to be so." I was validated in what I've been feeling since I melted down (and am hauling self back up). What a lovely meeting of minds.
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 19:44:12
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » Dinah, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:34:01
You wrote, "Sometimes I'm feeling risky or frisky and I loose a lot of truth all at once, just to see what happens." What happens with me is *always* I take someone aback and suddenly they're behaving differently. Uncomfortably. And what always amazes me when this happens, is that I don't think I've said anything particularly strange. Just true. Truths we all know but don't want to think about. I usually end up saying them. Maybe it's my timing, maybe it's their comfort level with bald statements of fact, but in any case unless the person who so reacted has adjusted behaviour next time we meet, it's usually sayonara I know I can't trust that person again. Oh gosh this happens all the time. Does anyone know what I'm talking about or am I out in space? I can take the truth.
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 19:48:05
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » Dinah, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:34:01
Posted by gardenergirl on August 22, 2004, at 19:59:33
In reply to Re: The real Dinah » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 9:34:38
That's very sweet, Dinah. I wish the same for you.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by daisym on August 22, 2004, at 21:30:41
In reply to Re: The real Dinah » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on August 22, 2004, at 19:59:33
I think being genuine really means knowing yourself and DECIDING when and with whom you "let it all hang out." I don't want most people to see my vulnerabilities or my deep feelings. It is sort of like talking about sex...there are few people I really do that with. It is a difference in depth. There is surface me, and then there is inner me. I think the more I know myself and have accepted all parts of me, the better I can regulate those parts in any given situation.
I think that is the real value in being genuine. It allows you to choose, and to change. It is harder to change (and grow) if you are meeting everyone else's needs. Because who you are is dictated by who you think they want you to be. And if they change their mind, (grow too), you have to "guess" for awhile to become who you think they want again. It is much easier to know yourself but govern your action.
You and I have talked about marital fights. We both choose mostly to walk away. BUT, we know why we choose that and where we draw the line in the sand. That is a genuine choice. It works for the main part of ourselves for private reasons.
I think you are on a path to authenticity that gets painful sometimes. I'm on that same path. The "real" you needs to make the journey. But, you aren't going to ever find the cave that the "real" you is hiding in. Because the journey is what it's about, not the destination.
Hugs from me.
Daisy
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 1:57:05
In reply to A slightly different take, posted by daisym on August 22, 2004, at 21:30:41
After a few nights of little sleep, I think I'm going to have to pull an all nighter to get out the work that was supposed to be out last week. :(
I'm not going to think about the stuff due at the end of this week.Right now I'm buzzing like crazy, so I may have to crash tomorrow. But I'll be back soon. I didn't want anyone to think I was purposefully ignoring.
Posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 11:08:30
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » JenStar, posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 19:44:12
Yes, I do know what you mean. I think that's why I usually try to 'go slow' when meeting someone new (apart from those risky/frisky times!) I know that I personally tend to get overwhelmed and then back away when I learn too much too soon, and see the same from others. But if I go slow, those same things that were overwhelming or off-putting or just down-right scary become easier to handle.
It reminds me of the famous saying about the frog in boiling water: (sorry for the bad paraphrase!) If you put a frog into a pot of boiling water, he will try mightily to leap out. However, if you put a frog into a pot of cool water and heat it up to boiling, he will stay in there and cook.
So I suppose the parallel I'm making is...getting to know me is perhaps like a frog (YOU) getting slowly boiled (getting to know all about me!)
That's a really negative comparison, though. I'm going to have to come up with something that hits the same note but sounds a lot more positive...
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 11:08:59
In reply to JenStar you're very eloquent (nm), posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 19:48:05
Posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 11:20:06
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine? » tabitha, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 0:15:41
Dinah,
your emotional color view is very interesting to me! It sounds very thorough.I've read about people who mentally assign color to alphabetic letters or to musical tones from the time they are babies (for some, "A" can be bright blue, etc.)
Do you have color-assignations in other places besides emotion?
JenStar
> I have trouble with middle ground too. Like Linehan's wise mind.
>
> And I wouldn't exactly say Fake Dinah suppresses all feelings or doesn't express any. It's just the relatively limited range of emotions that helped get me labelled schizotypal. Dinah Who Is As She Should Be does righteous indignation superbly. :) And definitely has a better sense of humor than Dinah Who Is As She Is.
>
> Long before I could name my emotions, I used colors to describe them. I did this whole color wheel using a full range of crayola colors, with differing shades and intensities. Then I assigned a name to describe the color. The first few years in therapy, I'd consult the chart to say "I'm feeling brick red... ok that's resentful." Anyway, Fake Dinah has a full range of emotions, but in the bright glittery range. Excitement, amusement, irritation, indignation. Real Dinah has a full range of emotions in the warmer range - and darn it I still can't describe those well. But lavender rather than blue, or crimson rather than fire truck red.
>
> Ohhhh, I'm not making any sense even to myself.
>
> What you said made perfect sense, and when I read it I couldn't figure out why on earth I wouldn't want that for myself. I'm going to have to think about it more.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 12:00:53
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » Susan47, posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 11:08:30
Actually I really thought the analogy worked. Isn't that how we get into bad relationships? Best foot forward, moving too fast, next thing you know you're boiled.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 23, 2004, at 12:39:44
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » Dinah, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:34:01
One thing you wrote caught my attention:
"Sometimes I used to feel despair at work because I felt that the 'real' person was becoming too far buried under the lacquer of the 'socially acceptable' person. I didn't LIKE the lacquer (some people do like it...bully for them, right?) and started feeling suffocated."
In cases like that I LOVE the lacquer. I don't WANT to be up close and personal with people I work with. That part of me is saved for the few. And for the most part workmates aren't part of the few. It would be just too uncomfortable if they found a part of the "real" me that they thought strange. Laugh, joke, get along and do my work.
Imagine their surprise, though, when I had my breakdown, spent a few days in the hospital and took 4 months medical leave.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 23, 2004, at 13:48:11
In reply to What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 10:34:18
Dinah,
Do you think you could possibly be thinking TOO much? Be analyzing TOO much?? I simply ask this because one of the first things I blurted out in therpay was that I was the biggest phony on the planet and did such a wonderful snow job on everyone I met whom I exposed to the fake Laurel and never let them see the "real" Laurel. In short, I was genuine with no one.
I think a lot of this had to do with my depression and the more that lifted, and the more I got to like myself better, the more I realized that that the phony Laurel was in fact part of the real Laurel. I was not being disingenuous at all. I think I also stopped analyzing a lot of stuff and just let myself "be."
I have trained my husband to no longer use shoulds - he was a huge proponent of that. It has made life a lot easier for me and our relationship as a result.
So I guess I just want to say to give yourself a break and let yourself be. Make ANY sense?
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 18:39:52
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 23, 2004, at 13:48:11
I'm still processing, but I have a preliminary question.
Does being fake require more energy? It's as easy as falling off a log for me. It's keeping access to my emotions open that is enormously difficult. Give me something to read, or a piece of work to concentrate on, and those emotions are gone and not to be seen again unless I really work at it.
Is the usual experience the other way round?
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 18:45:12
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 23, 2004, at 13:48:11
My husband is the king of the shoulds. And that's not transference on my part. Every mental health professional we've ever seen has picked up on it in a nano second. Even his parents fuss at him to relax a bit.
He's a wonderful man who holds himself to the same high standards he holds others to. He's perhaps a bit too intelligent, he's got willpower exuding from his pores, and I think he assumes that if he can do something (or rather, everything), everyone should be able to. I reap the benefits of his own perfection (smile), so I have to pay the price of him expecting an awful lot from his family.
Posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 19:30:37
In reply to A question please? For any/every one, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 18:39:52
I think it requires "hidden energy" to be fake.
It's easy to do (for me, anyway!), once I get in the groove, but I think it takes an invisible toll on the mind and the psyche and the spirit.
Kind of like air pollution: You can't really see it (unless you live in Mex. City or LA or similar) but it's there nonetheless, slowly blackening your lungs and irritating your airways and wreaking havoc on the mast cells...until one day you wake up with asthma.
Kind of a slow sapping of the energy, no?
I agree that it takes incredible up-front strength to be genuine and honestly TRUE, especially if it's a risky situation where you face potential rejection of any kind and where it actually matters to you what people think of the 'real you.' It's also hard to do if you've fallen into the habit of agreeing to be agreeable, and yes-ing to be liked, and acquiescing to keep the peace -- breaking out of a comfortable known routine is never easy.
In the end, though, I believe that after you get over the activation energy of being honest, that it's downhill from there in terms of 'ease of use.'
This is -- of course -- largely hpyothetical for me, since I am not usually in the habit of being truly ME in many situations, although I am dying to do it!
Take care.
Write again when you feel up for it!JenStar
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 19:59:29
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine?, posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 11:20:06
No, it's just emotions. :)
It came early in therapy when my therapist would ask me to stop periodically during the day and write down what I was feeling. And I just couldn't do it. I'd come in with entries that read "ok", and he'd say ok wasn't a feeling. I didn't understand why ok wasn't a feeling. I was at a total loss to come up with words, other than obvious ones like nervous or anxious. So he gave me a list of emotion words. And I was still at a loss. My vocabulary was wide enough to understand the meaning of the words, but applying them to myself was totally beyond my abilities.
So I finally came up with the color wheel. It was very detailed and intricate. I used my crayola box, and the list of emotion words, and my memory of feelings. It was a *really* big deal for me in those days. My therapist was *so* excited. I was actually admitting to feelings other than "ok".
I guess the idea came from the way I perceive others, oh.. "auras" or something. Not exactly auras. But I pick up on moods pretty well, and have always tended to assign colors to them in my mind. I don't actually *see* colors, but I... Drat. I can't explain. But like my father often seemed surrounded by a black cloud with bolts of red lightning. Not that I literally saw a cloud, but... And my therapist is usually some shade of blue. Not that I literally *see* blue, but... Oh heck.
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 20:10:30
In reply to Re: A question please? For any/every one » Dinah, posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 19:30:37
It's hard for me, even when I'm alone. I tend to be sort of schizotypal/Aspergerish unless I really really work at accessing my emotions. It's not just an effort to be myself when with others. It's an effort to be myself when I'm with myself.
OMG! If I'm unemotional and pragmatic at rest, does that mean...?!!! Maybe I should stop trying to be emotional and start trying to be myself. :)
Posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 23:37:29
In reply to Re: A question please? For any/every one » JenStar, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 20:10:30
Thanks for replying about the colors - I think it's kind of cool that you associate diff. colors with people. (If you ever meet me, I hope to be a pretty green-blue with hints of ocean spray white and deeper green!)
I don't know much about schizoid type personalities or asperger syndrome, although I've heard of them. I know I don't have those tendencies, but sometimes it's hard for me to be ME when alone too. I guess it's just that I don't know exactly who I am, or who I want to be, and when I think about it too much, it starts to creep me out.
It's like when I was a kid, contemplating the meaning of words: Why is a chair called a chair? And I'd look at the chair and say "Chair" over and over and over until "Chair" ceased to have any meaning, and it was kind of cool and interesting and frightening at the same time. I guess that's how I feel about "me" when alone!
Sometimes I have a zen-like attitude towards myself: Just stop thinking about it and BE myself. (I think Daisy said something similar in a previous post.) If I forget to think about it and just ACT, later on I can reflect on it and say, "Oh, yeah, I guess that's who I am."
the concept of self is so strange, really!
Anyway, thanks for sharing your ideas & thoughts.
Hope you're doing well!JenSTar
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2004, at 20:28:38
In reply to What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 10:34:18
And for a few therapies to come, I think. :) Next time I'll print out this thread and discuss some of the concepts with him.
I still think the main problem is I'm looking for a way to effectively kill myself without causing any harm to others, the way an actual suicide would. By going back into deep hiding, and leaving only a superficial shell, I'll be effectively ending the pain of dealing with the world (and its inevitable losses), and I want to convince myself that no one will care. Because no one did last time. I don't mean that in any self pitying way. It's a completely accurate assessment of the situation. I think my therapist was the first person who noticed that anything was missing.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 26, 2004, at 9:46:54
In reply to A question please? For any/every one, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 18:39:52
> I'm still processing, but I have a preliminary question.
>
> Does being fake require more energy? It's as easy as falling off a log for me. It's keeping access to my emotions open that is enormously difficult. Give me something to read, or a piece of work to concentrate on, and those emotions are gone and not to be seen again unless I really work at it.
>
> Is the usual experience the other way round?Every way I try to give an answer to that question, I end up thinking about so many different factors that make my answer valid or not.....
The ability to move off into the realm of superficiality is not necessarily overtly an effort. In fact, I think it can be just like a habit, something you just tend to do, having learned it as a coping strategy some time in the past. The cost of doing so still exists....the cost in losing the true self....but it's like dissociation, to move away from feeling because the self is vulnerable.
I've heard it said that such people, those who live in the superficial, are human doings, not human beings.
When people habitually smoke tobacco, they're well aware of the cost of doing so, but it's easier to do it than to try and stop. It seems like a contradiction, but it's not. The cost, in "health units" this time, increases and remains at that increased level, the longer the "easier" path is taken.
So, what I'm trying to suggest is that the effort (in terms of cost, and the work required to undo the cost) is really not evident until one begins the journey back towards self-care. Before that, denial is the blinding force. You can't see the cost, because you don't want to look there.
Once you start to see what the true cost is, you can't unlook at it. You're on the path towards the center, and you can't go back to denial (OK, you can, but I think sanity itself goes away with that diversion). Since you can't go back, it might make sense to move along that path, as you're able.
Lar
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