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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Joslynn on March 28, 2004, at 10:13:54
Background: I have both a therp and a pdoc. I see the therp once every other wk now. Because she is a female, I don't get that intense transference with her that I have with my pdoc. I see him once every 4 wks for med check and 50 mins therapy. I used to see him more often when things were bad. The transference with him is defiintely there, most likely because my Dad was an active alcoholic when I was growing up, so there are some male issues from that.
Anyway...shortly after my pdoc and I sheduled my next appointment, I was given an opportunity to go to a really worthwhile conference. He has moved my appts around before for things like this, so I thought it would be ok to reschedule. I mean, we're both professionals.
I left a mg telling him I would have to reschedule, & gave him alternate times and two phone numbers to reach me.
Four days went by. I thought maybe he was at a conference himself or on vacation or something and that's why he didn't call back??
So I called again and got his "line is busy leave a msg" outgoing msg. Oh good, I thought to myself, he must be in the office so I will leave a msg asking to reschedule and he will call me back when he gets off the phone.
Hah! Yeah right. Three more days went by.
I called again, he picked up the phone. He said kind of brusquely that he was with a patient andasked was this something that could wait? I said oh sure, I was just calling to reschedule. He said he would have to call back and I said "ok bye" and got off the phone fast.
(He usually has his phone go straight to voicemail when he is with patients, so I don't know why he even picked up? It brought up all these little girl feelings that I bothered him. I hung up and a tear ran down my face. Suddenly I felt like I just can't stand this feeling that maybe he is mad at me for rescheduling or wishes I would forget to reschedule so he would never have to see me again? I suspect this is irrational.)
Anyway, the day went by and he never called back about the appt.
Now I know that there is still time to reschedule, but I feel weird that he keeps blowing me off about something that would be so simple. I am organized and keep a detailed calendar, it would just take two minutes for us to set a new time over the phone. He has rescheduled me, and I always tolerate him being at least 30 mins behind in appointments all the time, can't he do this simple thing?
Now I feel like I can't stand it, he must not really want to see me, and I am sick of feeling like I care so much and have all these yearnings for him to love me somehow and he can't even return a simple phone call?
Yet a couple weeks ago, when I had a mini-meltdown and left msgs on his VM and my therp's VM, he called back that same day and was so sweet and nice to me, and called at a time that must have been really inconvenient for him, from his house, just to talk to me.
Yet now he can't call back about something that is relatively simple?
I am confused. I feel like I want to get the power back and not feel like I am bothering him. I want to stop seeing him altogether. IF he calls again to reschedule, just cheerily say, oh gee, you seem really busy, why don't you just forward my files to my general internist. That way, you won't have to be bothered by me anymore. Bye!
I don't like this feeling, and I am PAYING to have it? Is transference really any good? I want this love from him that I can only get from God. I know I'm not on the spiritual thread, but maybe I should just give on on men (my pdoc, my Dad, dating, etc.) and just realized that men are inconsisten, hot and cold and they will always make me feel small and unwanted.
God wants me even when other men don't. I have to remember that.
I refuse to call my pdoc again. If he doesn't call back to reschedule, I guess I will have to...what? Who will fill out my prescription? Who will listen to me and remind me of all I have to offer/ My therp can do that too, but he is so gentle about it and coming from a man, it feels good, something I am not used to.
I have to send him a check soon, maybe I will enclose a note in the check listing the times that are good to me?
I don't like this. What if I am this big nuisance to him? I'm not going to let it get me down. I'm going to the gym and to run errands.
What do I do now?
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2004, at 10:50:40
In reply to Transference or legitimate annoyance?, posted by Joslynn on March 28, 2004, at 10:13:54
How about some of both?
You have every right to be annoyed. That's perfectly legitimate. His behavior is unprofessional.
But you're giving it some meanings that it probably doesn't have. It probably just means that he's busy and preoccupied and doesn't have a proper office set up to deal with these things. Which is annoying, and I nearly terminated with my internist over similar issues. But in the end I decided she was good enough, and I felt comfortable enough with her, to overlook the office chaos.
But it doesn't reflect his feelings and attitudes towards you. This is all about him.
Posted by EmmyS on March 28, 2004, at 11:14:17
In reply to Transference or legitimate annoyance?, posted by Joslynn on March 28, 2004, at 10:13:54
As usualy, I agree with Dinah. His behavior is the problem. He is probably overworked, and under too much pressure. He needs to fix his administrative mess before he hurts the feelings of any more patients!
Your reaction is completely understandable. I would feel the same way. I would call, tell him that you have called # times and that it has kicked off feelings of rejection, although you know logicially that's not his intent.
As far as the bill - if he can't be bothered calling you, you can't be bothered writing a check. :-)
We ALL deserve to be treated with kindness and respect by our pdocs, our T's and all our providers.
Emmy
Posted by jane d on March 28, 2004, at 12:28:11
In reply to Transference or legitimate annoyance?, posted by Joslynn on March 28, 2004, at 10:13:54
I'm not sure I believe this kind of sensitivity is transference but it doesn't make it rational either. You say yourself that he called back when you desperately needed it - he sounds like the kind of person who lets routine things fall to the bottom of his to do list. You'll have to decide whether he's worth the aggravation that causes - disorganization is reason to replace a professional if it bothers you enough.
You also need to tell yourself over and over that it is just aggravation, not rejection of you personally. In this I guess I believe in a kind of cognitive approach. Force yourself to keep behaving as though it's not personal even when you are so upset that you are sure it is and sooner or later that feeling you have of being despised will go away. Or at least you won't have lost a useful doctor over a misunderstanding. I don't always practice what I preach. I once stopped seeing a doctor for several years because she said she'd call me back with a date to reschedule and then forgot. I KNEW that she had forgotten but the idea that she wanted to get rid of me as a patient kept circling in my head. Finally an emergency forced me to go back and I'm glad I did.
Reading this also makes me grateful for the consistently gentle way some doctors (especially psych I think) handle phone calls. (Take note all students.) When I'm feeling good it seems silly to me. Its priceless, however, on those days when every nerve is raw and my mind is screaming at me that I'm worthless.
Jane
Posted by Joslynn on March 28, 2004, at 17:50:59
In reply to Re: It sounds like he's just disorganized » Joslynn, posted by jane d on March 28, 2004, at 12:28:11
Hi, thank you all for the insightful posts. I think it's true that it is more his own overwhelming schedule and disorganization.
I am usually not a very rigid person regarding dates, times, etc (I'm INFP on Myers Briggs) though I must be organized on my job. I think it bothered me with him because I am just waiting for him to abandon me. And I want to feel special and it goes into all this other stuff.
The thing is, with only one exception in the three years I've gone to him, he has always been there for me when I really needed him. And he apologized for that exception and said it was his fault and that he wouldn't let that happen again. It didn't.
I guess I get confused in my head between routine calls and "I'm melting down" calls. I know I placed a routine call that does not really require an immediate response, yet with him, nothing is routine in my heart. It is not routine for me to bear all my insecurities to an older man, not for me. So when he doesn't call back about something routine, it feels personal, even if it wasn't personal. It's all personal when you feel so attached and vulnerable!
Also, I like the security of having my appointment with him in my calendar, and when it's not there (even if it's because I am the one who had to cancel) I feel kind of lost and floating around aimlessly around the stratosphere.
I like to know I have that appointment set to hear his calming voice. He has a very calm, gentle voice, even the receptionst at my work commented on it, and she doesn't know he's a shrink.
I want to be special to him and sometimes I think I am but other times, like now, I realize I am just another patient, no more, no less.
It's very confusing, but thanks for the posts. I've decided I'm not going to call again until after April 1st. Then I will decide what to do.
Posted by Elle2021 on March 28, 2004, at 21:50:54
In reply to Transference or legitimate annoyance?, posted by Joslynn on March 28, 2004, at 10:13:54
I can relate. I left a message for my pdoc three, that's right, THREE weeks ago. He still hasn't called back. This type of thing appears to be a trend amongst them.
Elle
Posted by crushedout on March 28, 2004, at 22:25:27
In reply to Transference or legitimate annoyance?, posted by Joslynn on March 28, 2004, at 10:13:54
That sounds really unprofessional and inconsiderate. I hope it's ok for me to say that. I guess you should probably tell him all the stuff you told us about how it made you feel and probably even ask him what his problem was, why he didn't call you back. Because to me, that would be really hurtful and disconcerting if my T (or pdoc, or whoever) couldn't return simple phone calls. Maybe he has a good reason, though, like he's going through a hard time, and this is an anomaly?
Posted by emmaley on March 29, 2004, at 1:09:12
In reply to Transference or legitimate annoyance?, posted by Joslynn on March 28, 2004, at 10:13:54
You know, I would not feel very pleasant if my therapist forgot to call me back, and I don't think many people would. So, this obviously not a matter of oversensitivity. No one likes to feel forgotten by someone who is important to us; it can easily trigger thoughts and feelings around our self worth and emotions such as rage or shame. (Hmmmm, just my opinion, by the way.)
On the same token, once I was so stressed out and I forgot to check my voicemail at the agency that I worked for. When I finally did, I realized that one of my clients had left me a message to ask to reschedule almost a week ago! I felt like crap. Crap, crap, crap. Since then, I have worked hard not to ever forget again. Thank God my client forgave me. People make mistakes. We are all capable of moving on. (Thank the good lord. I felt so awful since I dropped the ball on that one.)
It seems like your therapist has made a mistake of not staying on top of returning his phone calls, and you are having a reaction to the situation, with potentially some of your own stuff being triggered (the he doesn't want you as a client bit, just wondering.) It sounds like perfectly legitimate annoyance with just a bit of transference thrown in; I see both as perfectly great topics to bring up in therapy. (This stuff is never science anyways.) He needs to return his phone calls promptly, or at least being able to explain his reasons for not being able to do so. (But certainly it is not your responsibility to change him. You can only let him know how it impacts you.)
My thoughts are just all over the place today, since today was a day full of weird events! Hope my reply makes sense. Whatever you decide to do or not do, know that you have our support!
Posted by noa on March 29, 2004, at 11:21:52
In reply to Transference or legitimate annoyance?, posted by Joslynn on March 28, 2004, at 10:13:54
FWIW--
My previous psychopharmdoc is extremely disorganized and never returns calls unless it is a dire emergency, in which case you would have to page him, not call him. After a long time, the final straw was drawn and I stopped going to him.
I wrote the story over several posts a few years ago:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020112/msgs/16861.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020112/msgs/16905.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020112/msgs/17039.html
My current pdoc is also disorganized but not in the same ways. He is terrible at keeping times. He is always always late, starting with arriving late for his first appointment, and he doesn't keep good track of time during the meeting. He can go off onto tangents easily, too. But his files seem pretty well organized (he has an assistant, maybe that is why). Also, he is very interested, curious and not complacent at all like my previous pdoc had become. He is much more personable, too, although very very quirky. I think he has tourettes and adhd, btw. I haven't had occasion to have to call him, but I have called the office and the assistant has taken care of getting refil scrips from him. So, except for having to deal with the time issue--choosing appt. times carefully, bringing a book (although he has a lot of good magazines, too), and leaving time on the other end open, as well as trying to stay on top of the time within the session and manage how off topic we get--I know it is a lot of work for a patient to have to do, but there aren't a lot of choices of good pdocs--I am feeling ok with this one so far.
What you are dealing with is hard. Good luck.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on March 29, 2004, at 12:23:15
In reply to Transference or legitimate annoyance?, posted by Joslynn on March 28, 2004, at 10:13:54
Joslynn, this is a legitimate annoyance. And very unprofessional! Even if he is overloaded or having other problems, it is his responsibility to take care of business at it were and he is not doing so.
When I had my first appt. with my T. I signed a bunch of stuff and there was some stipulation somewhere which read that I could expect a return call from him (whenever I left a message) within 24 hours. This was part of the actual contract. I really liked that clause.
PLease let us know what happened if anything.
Posted by Joslynn on March 29, 2004, at 12:29:51
In reply to Re: Transference or legitimate annoyance? » Joslynn, posted by noa on March 29, 2004, at 11:21:52
Thanks.
It is kind of a tricky situation, because on the one hand, he will sometimes do something above and beyond the call of duty. For example, he will offer to see me at the last minute if I am in a crisis mode. He also has gone over time if I am the last patient and I am in a bad place. The whole fact that he has kept doing therapy with me, even though my meds are relatively stable, shows that he has some kind of interest in the therapeutic relationship, not just in writing out meds.
Yet he sometimes drops the ball on little things. It's kind of confusing for me.
I am going to wait a few days. See if he does remember to call back. Maybe he was on vacation when I made the first few calls and now he is all back-logged with returning calls. I remember him saying something about going away, but I thought he said it was just for a wknd. And if he was away the full week, then why did I get the voice mail saying his line was busy? He must have been there, just forgetting to call.
He could be thinking, "oh, I have plenty of openings in April and don't need to call Joslynn back in March, even though she has called three times. It will all work out". But I don't know it will all work out, even if he does.
I wouldn't want to just stop seeing him, because in many ways, he has been so good to me.
It's weird, he slips up on the little things, but in therapy, nothing is little.
Talke the Lifesaver incident. One time after session, I offered him a lifesaver and he smiled and said, "oh thank you, I'd love one."
Then, not even the next session buy maybe the sesson after that, I took out a lifesaver and offered him one again. He said "no thank you."
So of course in my head I was like, "how come he didn't want a lifesaver? He took one before. Does he think I will poison him? Did he think he crossed a boundary in accepting my lifesaver before? What's wrong with my lifesavers? They are minty and fresh! That does it, he doesn't love me, I just know it. Love me, love my Lifesavers."
(Now of course I am exagerrating my thoughts, but you get the idea.)
I want to sit tight and see if he calls. I really do not want to call again. I hope he remembers this time.
Posted by Joslynn on March 29, 2004, at 13:04:02
In reply to Re: Transference or legitimate annoyance?, posted by Joslynn on March 29, 2004, at 12:29:51
I don't mean I took out the lifesaver with my grubby hands and said here, I mean I took out the roll and held it out.
Oh this is silly! Well the lifesaver thing is silly.
The call thing is not silly. I am getting madder and madder just thinking about it.
I have to let this go until April 1. That is my day for deciding what to do next.
Meawhile, my calendar is filing up with work and personal things and I have no idea if/when I will see him.
I have a refill so can go through a little over a month I think. Of course, it's not just about the scrips with him and it never was and he knows it. He is the one who started the whole therapy thing with me in the first place.
Grrrr. Ok, remember, have to let this go for a few days. I have lots of things to do at work.
Speaking of work, I am in a service industry myself and would probably get fired if I did what he did. Just stating a fact of my job.
Posted by Joslynn on March 30, 2004, at 15:33:38
In reply to clarification, posted by Joslynn on March 29, 2004, at 13:04:02
I've decided to chill out on this. I'm pretty sure, from my caller ID, that my pdoc tried calling me when I wasn't in yesterday. I have decided to trust that he will call in time to make an April appointment and if he doesn't, I will call with a gentle reminder.
I think this is probably just an administrative backlog on his part and I have to remember that I am the one who wanted to change the time.
He has done a lot of nice, big things for me (like agreeing to see a very, very depressed friend of mine even though he is technically no longer seeing patients, as just one example). So I have decided to let this little thing go, for now.
We'll see how it goes...
Posted by Joslynn on March 30, 2004, at 15:37:17
In reply to Re: clarification, posted by Joslynn on March 30, 2004, at 15:33:38
he's no longer seeing NEW patients.
Posted by pegasus on March 30, 2004, at 18:23:58
In reply to clarification, posted by Joslynn on March 29, 2004, at 13:04:02
Your lifesaver story reminds me of Karen Kay's "stupid therapist cookies" last Christmas. If you weren't around, she baked cookies, and then agonized over whether they were acceptable, and whether she should give them, and eventually baked...what?...three batches before she was satisfied with them, and finally gave them to him. And of course, he liked them.
My point is: Aren't we all there at some point? I can't tell you how I've obsessed over what some minor negative expression meant, or been unreasonably happy at some reflex conversational pleasantry. I think it comes with the territory, and isn't silly at all.
And I'm glad that it looks like he finally called you back, even if you weren't there. I think your plan to wait a bit is a good one, but that if you find you can't that would be understandable. He really should have called you back earlier.
- p
Posted by lucy stone on March 30, 2004, at 20:04:36
In reply to Re: clarification, posted by pegasus on March 30, 2004, at 18:23:58
I wish I had been her last Christmas to follow the therapist cooky saga. I did almost the same thing. I always bake lots of cookies in my perfectionist way--my perfectionism is not my friend, BTW, and I have been trying to give my therapist some for the last two Christmases. We talked about the GD cookies for two weeks until I finally had enough courage to bring them in. He said liked them, but would he have told me if he didn't?
Posted by Joslynn on March 31, 2004, at 13:03:39
In reply to therapist cookies, posted by lucy stone on March 30, 2004, at 20:04:36
Oh yeah, I remember the Cookie Chronicles, that was funny. I am too lazy to make cookies, plus I would probably eat them all in the car.
I am still not calling. I will be patient and trusting and assume he will eventually call me back to reschedule. I won't call again, I draw the line at three calls! I don't want to have to nudge and nag him and pull at his coat tails, forget it. I don't do that in dating anymore and I won't do that with a doctor.
If he forgets that I need to reschedule an April appointment, I guess he will remember me when the pharmacy calls him saying they don't have any more refills for me. I have one refill left, which will carry me thru April, then it will be gone.
I am just so tired with my dr, Dad, dating, etc., being the one who has to remind men of my existence or hope they will notice me. I am tired of that. I don't want to be the person who is whining and calling and begging someone to notice my existence.
Posted by Karen_kay on March 31, 2004, at 13:38:45
In reply to Re: therapist cookies, posted by Joslynn on March 31, 2004, at 13:03:39
And your miraculous existence! And your beautiful writing as well. I wouldn't call again, but oly because I'd feel like "Well, I can take a hint, I get it already." But, please don't think that you aren't noticed. That does make my heart hurt. And when you are gone for periods of time, you are noticed as well. (PS. I'm not just saying that because I think it's what you want or need to hear, and I understand this is a frustrating situation, as I've been in it many times with Bubba before. I talked to him about not returning my phone calls when I needed him to and after that, he now returns my phone calls within the hour. Funny, but since that talk, I only call him to reschedule. Too little too late? Or perhaps I'm a little better? I like to think I'm better! Maybe if you call him and talk to him about how important it is to have him return your phone calls in a prompt fashion, it will help you both out. It's not being demanding, it's being assertive. And it really puts your mind at ease. I know it did in my case. I was afraid I was being needy in that case, but I found out he was making assumptions, as well as an a$$ out of himself! And I just love it when Bubba makes an a$$ out of himself! Why not call once more, jsut to tell him the importance of getting back to his clients? Not only are you helping yourself, but also those other clients who are wondering the exact same thing you are....... Just my few pennies in the bucket of thoughts here.. And what great thoughts they are... And those darn cookies...Drats! I've since made him brownies and muffins, even after he told me not to. Who says you have to listen to them? He had juice ready, because he knew I'd bring them. Bubba knows me, and now returns my calls!)
Posted by Joslynn on March 31, 2004, at 13:50:35
In reply to Joslynne, I notice you! » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on March 31, 2004, at 13:38:45
That is so sweet of you to say!
Obviously I have heard the "I'll call you" line in dating a few times too many and it carries over into my reaction to other men, even men I'm not dating. The irony is, I recently had to "reject" someone romantically, so I am not literally always the one being rejected, but it feels that way inside sometimes. Growing up, my Dad's priorities were: Working, drinking, smoking, yelling and finally, after all that, the family. Oh wait, watching football and the MacNeil Lehrer report came before the family I think, while smoking and drinking simultaneously. But I need to get over that hurt already.
Also, I am busy at work and generally stressed and crabby. I am forgetting all the times he has called back and just focusing on the negative.
Thanks for the nice notes.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 31, 2004, at 16:04:22
In reply to therapist cookies, posted by lucy stone on March 30, 2004, at 20:04:36
Well, this just sounded so amusing that I couldn't resist looking it up. Here it is:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20031213/msgs/290175.html
I almost died laughing, Karen... Especially about how you almost left them out in the car because you were sure his wife bakes better cookies. That is exactly the kind of thing I would have been thinking. Of course, I wouldn't bake cookies for mine in the first place, because (1) I live in a dorm and don't have a kitchen, and (2) I am fat, so I don't like to associate with food (I would imagine him thinking, "She must bake cookies all the time and eat them all herself!").
Oh yeah, and along the lines of that topic, this is kind of stupid but for the last several weeks, I have been thinking about what to do when I leave. I want to give him a card, and I have one in mind, but it's kind of sarcastic (funny-sarcastic):
http://www.despair.com/loneliness.html
I don't know if he would be amused or horrified. I also don't know what I would write, because it is just not my style to be overly gushy, but I want him to know how much he means to me. I have a general idea of what I'm going to write, but it seems too short. Something along the lines of:
"Thanks for making me feel not quite so alone."
Posted by Karen_kay on March 31, 2004, at 17:11:07
In reply to Re: therapist cookies » lucy stone, posted by lonelygirl on March 31, 2004, at 16:04:22
And I didn't stress about the brownies or muffins I baked him! I'VE MADE PROGRESS!!! YAHOO!!!
Posted by Joslynn on April 1, 2004, at 8:33:04
In reply to hey, he still has my book! » lonelygirl, posted by Karen_kay on March 31, 2004, at 17:11:07
I caved, sort of. Included with my check that I had to mail, I slipped in a post-it note with a friendly reminder about rescheduling. I really wanted to be trusting and just see what would happen w/o another reminder, but I got tired of going back and forth in my head.
I guess this has taught me that I am more dependent on that monthly session than I thought, which makes me feel kind of embarrassed or something.
This is the end of the thread.
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