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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by Karen_kay on January 30, 2004, at 12:47:19
In reply to What I need, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 9:03:40
First of all I will completely validate you for your hard work on finding that pattern. If I came into a session with a pattern like that I honestly think my therapist would faint. Then, for you to find the pattern repeating with your therapist after you pointed it out, well....Again, you're doing great work.
You said that you have a hard time trusting your own impressions of things. Well, maybe in trying to get you to realize that you should trust your own, he neglected to realize that you would see the similar pattern repeating? Is that a possibility? I mean that while he was encouraging you to trust your gut and get encouragement from within he failed to see the similarities of the pattern you just pointed out.
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 12:48:58
In reply to Getting Better, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 12:35:49
I admire your grit. I'd have walked away long ago, I think.
I like to understand why I do the things I do, but I like my cold hard truths polished a bit. A good bit. I like them polished, bevelled, and served in a lovely setting of warm support.
But that's why there are lots of different therapists. It astonishes me that not everyone would adore Big, but I suppose it's true. :)
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 14:51:35
In reply to Re: Getting Better » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 12:48:58
Fallsfall,
You are working so hard. Look at you still working to figure out what happened with your T. I admire you, especially because of the added pain of your T's reaction. I tend to agree with the others, that validation was warranated, but I guess I can also see it from your T's perspective.But again, you did very good work, and it made me jump up and down for you. I know I jump up and down for myself once I get past the emotional part of figuring something like that out on my own.
Which reminds me. You talked of it feeling mechanical in the session. I think it is hard to recreate those "aha!" moments after the fact. I had a similar experience I was dying to talk to my T about, but in session, it seemed like more "old news" and we moved on to other stuff. Perhaps your T just missed out on the importance of it because it happened prior, and you had moved past some of the emotion and were now more in thinking mode?
Thinking of you,
gg
Posted by tabitha on January 30, 2004, at 17:35:46
In reply to Getting Better, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 12:35:49
Falls, I'm glad you found a way to view it as a learning experience instead of just painful. All therapists are different. What you described sounded a little cold, but you must have trust and history built up such that he could do that, and assume you'd be able to work it out on your own.
My therapist will often refuse to answer direct questions like that, but she'll at least guide me to answering them myself, usually by starting with 'Well what do you think?' so at least I don't leave the session feeling frustrated and lost.
Are you going to follow up with him about how you felt, and how hard the session was for you?
Posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 18:08:48
In reply to Re: What I need, posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 12:28:32
>>>That's like my therapist (old one) ABRUPTLY (I mean immediately) abandoning me when he learned about my sexual abuse issues because he couldn't help me, when the major issue I face is that I feel I will be abandoned if I tell anyone about the abuse (i.e., if I told my mother, she would leave me, etc.) In my case, I was abandoned anyway, so fear of abandonment is my most major issue--and this T abandoned me. And he didn't get it either, when it was clear as a bell to me.
<<<I've been lurking mostly for a few days -- hurting and struggling between sessions. But I had to write...you have no idea how this hits me...especially after the last two weeks. Especially after the last 2 days! It is so sad and scary - I'm so sorry this happened to you. I terrified that it is going to happen to me. The voices keep saying over and over, "telling is bad, telling is BAD" -- and your experience proves it.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 20:38:01
In reply to This is my biggest fear! » antigua, posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 18:08:48
Daisy and antigua,
I SO feel for you. I think any T abruptly abandoning is horrible. Even if the T believes that he or she is unqualified or unable to work with a client on a particular issue, there should never be an abrupt termination! There's no reason the T cannot process the change and the reasons behind it with you. The particular issue that triggered the T could be put on hold while you get an appropriate referral and an appropriate termination with one and transition to the other. I am outraged!Daisy, telling is not bad. Sometimes T's are bad, and that really hurts. But if your T is any good (sorry forgot which B you have), then he will not abandon you. Besides, it's against the APA ethics code to *abandon* a client for any reason other than if the T's own personal safety is at risk. If a T needs to terminate, it should be done profesionally.
Aack! Anger triggered! Righteous anger!
(((Daisy))) (((antigua)))
gg
Posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 20:54:48
In reply to Re: This is my biggest fear! » DaisyM, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 20:38:01
Actually, I do know that if a Therapist has a sanction they could be prohibited from working with specific types of clients. They don't necessarily have to disclose that this is why they terminated. Though they should.
I keep hearing stories about how hard it is to work with trauma and how many Therapists can't handle it. It frightens me because I know I don't want to say it all, so why should I assume anyone would be willing to hear it all? :(
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 21:07:56
In reply to Re: This is my biggest fear! » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 20:54:48
Daisy,
That fear makes a lot of sense. Especially because you are a caring person and would worry about others' reactions. And because you want to be able to tell safely. Hopefully you can get to a point when you trust your T enough to try it out.I know I have listened to clients talk about trauma. It's very painful to see them hurting so much and to hear about things which should NEVER happen to children or even human beings of any age. But somehow we utilize our training and professionalism, along with our desire to be present and open with the client to cope with our own feelings. I'm not sure how I even do it, but after particulary intense sessions with clients, I somehow find a way to "discharge" the emotion. It usually doesn't hang on. That doesn't mean that I no longer feel empathy, but the intensity drops off so I don't carry everyone's stuff home with me or into the next session with someone else.
Do you think you could eventually trust your T to be able to do this? Can you talk to him about your fear itself and your concern about his reaction? Maybe that will help eventually set the stage for talking about it when you are ready.
(Holding your hand in the fear)
gg
Posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 21:22:06
In reply to Re: This is my biggest fear!, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 21:07:56
Thank you for offering to hold my hand...it feels sweet.
I have started to tell him all the awful stuff, we've gone from general statements to more specific incidences. For the last two weeks, we've really been dealing with the ugly stuff. I trust him tons...he tells me I'm doing fine and that he wants to hear it, all of it, in detail, when I'm ready. I told him yesterday how much I was afraid he would walk away, decide I was too screwed up to handle, this isn't how we started so it is more than he anticipated. He tells me he totally understands why I'm afraid, why I need to only rely on me...but that he isn't going anywhere no matter how hard I try to push him away. In fact, when I react like this he always wants me to come more. (He's pushy that way!)
So the fear has no real basis in the present day. But it is HUGE. And it threatens to smother me. It makes me feel 9 years old. And I hate that!
I keep thinking about Karen, who is struggling to get her memories back. I totally sympathize with her, but I want mine to go away!
And then I read posts like antigua's and I allow it to feed the fear. My control over all of this is slipping and I feel it bleeding into the rest of my life. And I hate that too.
Never should have opened this Pandora's box...never...never...
Posted by deirdrehbrt on January 30, 2004, at 22:53:23
In reply to Re: This is my biggest fear! » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 21:22:06
I don't usually post on Psychology, but Having read this thread prompted me to.
It's awfull that a therapist would abandon a client, but it happens in many ways, and all too often, from what I've been reading and from people I've spoken to.
Falls, I don't know if you feel the same way, but I kind of think that your last therapist abandoned you; not by leaving, or terminating her work with you, but by distancing herself, and not helping you anymore. The hell you went through for the months preceeding the time you left was terrible. The fact that you picked yourself up, and the steps that you took to find a T who could help you were Herculean, and in finding one who could, and would work with you, whom you qualified on your own is fabulous. You truly inspired me.
For everyone else, I'll mention my own bit of abandonment. The last T that I had called me, while I was in the hospital, to tell me that She was leaving the agency, and that She hoped I could find someone else to work with. The can be SO much help.
My two cents,
Dee
Posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 22:55:36
In reply to Re: What I need, posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 12:28:32
Antigua,
I think that it is unforgivable that your therapist abandoned you. As one who fears abandonment, I know only too well the intensity of that pain.
I have enough experience with this therapist to KNOW (with NO doubt) that he cares about me. And that he carefully makes decisions, and that he tries always to make them in my best interest. He tend to be quite blank slate, but once in a while his human side shows through - and he is a deeply caring man. I also have enormous respect for his intellect and experience. I looked around before I chose him, and I believe strongly that we are a good fit.
This doesn't mean that he never makes mistakes. He does, and we talk about them. He also really does try to explain to me why he makes certain decisions. In this case he told me specifically that he was NOT going to validate that what I had done was important BECAUSE he felt that if he did so that it would not be helpful to me in the long run. So while I was hurting (because he didn't validate me), I was also hearing that it was for "my own good". Now, that isn't always what we want to hear. And it wasn't what I wanted to hear yesterday. But at least I knew that he was trying his best to "care" for me - and as much as I felt "bad", I did NOT feel "hopeless". I knew that if I couldn't work through the "bad" that I could page him and that he would call me back and that we could talk about it. I KNEW that it would BE OK, even if it didn't FEEL OK at the time.
I did ask for this - when I chose him for my therapist he asked why him over the others. My answer was that he was efficient - he didn't waste time on things that weren't important. And this is what he is giving me now. Instead of waiting for the next time when he could encourage me to validate myself, he chose to do it now. I support that - most of the agony associated with finding this pattern had past.
I know he can sound harsh (but I truly hear the softness of his caring every time). My pain can be intense (but I do have enough coping skills to call for help before it is too late). You all have helped me time and again to process the information, and I thank you. The system works for me (and I hope that it doesn't NOT work for you).
Posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 23:03:05
In reply to Re: Abandonment, posted by deirdrehbrt on January 30, 2004, at 22:53:23
Yes, Dee, I do feel that my first therapist abandoned me. She neglected me emotionally - much the same as my mother has done for my whole life. But it is easier for me to forgive my mother - she simply doesn't have the equipment to be emotionally present. My old therapist is quite capable of being emotionally present. She should have addressed the issues that were causing our stalemate, rather than withdrawing into a superficial relationship. Her inaction felt very much like abandonment.
Posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 23:25:42
In reply to This is my biggest fear! » antigua, posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 18:08:48
Daisy, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel that way. Me and my big mouth (oops, telling things again, I have such a hard time striking the right balance, but I bet you understand).
But yes, I was devastated. I had agreed to trust this guy (you won't find me in the I Love My Male Therapist club)-- I actually said those words out loud, "I am going to trust you" (and I don't trust ANYONE except my regular T and to a certain extent my husband, and not even him fully). He told me I would never be well unless I trusted him. So I took a deep breath and took that big leap... and I was wrong. He wasn't worth my trust. I hate him still. But the hard part for me is separating out which part belongs w/him, the evil therapist, and which part belongs to my transference onto him of my father. I mean, he became my "bad father" right in front of my eyes. But, he is a real person and really did treat me this way, very unethically in my book. I'm not projecting that part onto him. So I'm still messed up about it. I told him he had done some terrible damage and his great response was, "I'm sorry, but good-bye." I hate him, but I have these feelings too. I'm still humiliated and embarrassed that I opened myself up to him and he rejected me.
I'm not making a lot of sense. But, you see, I have always had my regular T whom I have been seeing for 13 years (I am not a therapy junkie, it just really has taken me this long). I often say that my strength is also my greatest weakness; I built some really strong defenses to cope w/this and I had a lot to break through to even know about this, much less to begin dealing with it.
My regular T is the greatest woman in the word, I nominate her for "Best T". I was very fortunate to have her to turn to. Stupidly, I thought all therapists were like her.
Daisy, this will NOT happen to you. You seem to have a good relationship w/yours and he does care about you. There's no denying that it's always a risk, but I have to take that risk if I want to get past this. I've worked way too hard to let that evil therapist destroy me. But he almost did, literally. (I'm feeling good about this name, "evil therapist").
I did learn something important, though, but it's not pleasant. I now realize how hard it is for other people to hear about this type of abuse. To me it doesn't seem like such a big deal because it happened and there's nothing I can do about it. I know this means I'm not really in touch w/it, or that I minimalize it, but if I can tolerate it why do other people have so much trouble w/it? I feel like I have a big red letter on my forehead (what letter should it be?) and that people look or think of me differently because of it. Not that many people in my real life know about it--my husband and two really close friends, but they even have trouble w/it. My husband is a good man, but he is embarrassed by it, he admitted it to me. I think he thinks it's a reflection on him in some way. So while I think I've come a long way, I still have a long way to go.
best,
antigua
Posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 23:34:12
In reply to Re: What I need » antigua, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 22:55:36
fallsfall,
I hope I didn't offend you. If I did, I'm really sorry. I think I probably said too much, which is a great fear. I'll just crawl back into my hole..
antigua
Posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 23:48:18
In reply to Re: What I need » fallsfall, posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 23:34:12
Antigua,
You did not overstep...or overshare...or whatever. You were honest about what happened. It is my own stupid fear that causes me to react. I'm in tears again for making you feel bad - the pebble in the pond effect of all of this.
My Therapist gently reminds me that sorting through all of this will feel like being retraumatized over and over and in some ways I will be less sensitive to the needs of others. It is this self-involved stuff that makes me not think ahead enough. I've written a couple of posts here I wish I could take back, especially this week and last (Karen, are you reading this?) but...
So, please don't stop writing about your experiences. I appreciate knowing someone else understands how hard it is. Because in some ways, I think, it was so long ago, what IS the big deal? But, telling...talking about it...it is unbelievably hard...it better cure me quick before it kills me.
Please don't feel bad. Really. I'm sorry for making you feel that way.
Daisy
Posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 23:59:51
In reply to NO, no hole crawling » antigua, posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 23:48:18
Posted by fallsfall on January 31, 2004, at 8:51:59
In reply to Re: What I need » fallsfall, posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 23:34:12
Antigua,
No, you didn't offend me in any way.
I am horrified by what happened to you. And in some ways my first therapist abandoned me, and I trusted her (8 1/2 years). I know that therapists aren't perfect, and some of them aren't even very good some of the time. And some of them are evil some of the time.
I know that your story is true. And it is important for you to tell it. It helps those of us with rose colored glasses to see more of the truth. It helps those of us who split (and can see only the good in people) to see things more realistically.
I think that my long response was a defense. A defense of why I think that trusting my therapist is OK. When I think about it logically, after what my first therapist did, I probably shouldn't trust my second. But I don't feel like I have much of a choice (I don't think I would survive without a therapist, and I don't know how to work with a therapist that I don't trust).
I truly do trust this guy - even more than I trusted my first therapist. I guess I just wanted to make the case that my actions (trust) and his actions (making me work so hard) are OK. I want them to be OK. In my split world, they will be OK (until, heaven forbid, they become evil). But I guess that if that were to happen, that I would deal with it somehow. Just like I did with my first therapist. Trying to keep for myself the good parts, and make the bad parts go as far away from me as possible.
Your point, that therapists cannnot always be trusted, is a critical point. And I (conveniently) forget it - even though my first therapist betrayed my trust. Ah. The split world is so simple. I'm not sure I want to stop splitting. It seems so complicated.
So, Antigua, I'm glad that you posted your experience. And I hope that you can work your way past your evil therapist into productive space. And I hope that I can, too.
Posted by Crooked Heart on January 31, 2004, at 12:51:15
In reply to Getting Better, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 12:35:49
I see what you were saying about lasting validation having to come from within yourself. So this opinion doesn't really matter :), but I hope you don't mind my saying that what you discovered (uncovered?) seems so important and I greatly admire your courage.
Posted by Crooked Heart on January 31, 2004, at 13:07:54
In reply to Re: This is my biggest fear! » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 21:22:06
Daisy, from what you've said in other threads your therapist sounds like someone who sticks with you through everything.
I'm sorry it's so rough for you at the moment.
Posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 15:11:10
In reply to Asking for what you need, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 8:00:53
I've been there. I think what was important was exploring that conclusion--that my need is "bad". That is how I've felt about a lot of my needs. And the initial reaction I had sometimes was that not getting it met meant they were validating my conclusion that it was a bad need. But it doesn't mean that. I think the therapist and you can explore it more and try to figure out why you came to believe it was a bad need, and also try to figure out other ways to meet the need. But a key component in doing this successfully is feeling that the therapist is communicating to you that even though the therapist can't directly meet the need, it doesn't mean the need is wrong or bad.
For me, in my family, this was the equation---if they couldn't meet the need, well then how dare I have needed it! It was my fault not theirs. I would withdraw in shame. But this was my family's crazy-making dynamic--inability to take ownership of anything. Even if it would have been appropriate to not meet a need of mine as a child, there could have been a healthy way to deal with it--ie, to convey to me that they understand the need but for whatever reality reason weren't able to meet it but loved me and beleived in me nevertheless and there was nothing shameful in wanting or needing what I needed. Instead, I usually got a response, or non-response that conveyed to me that I was needy, greedy, selfish, shameful or bad for wanting or needing something that they couldn't provide. And this covers everything from the subtlest search for loving eye contact to the most overt, concrete requests I made as a child, and everything in between. For me, it was totally unpredictable. Sometimes they were able to be there for me, and sometimes, not. So I fell into the trap a lot. I think if they had been consistently mean and witholding, I would have developed a tougher skin.
So I brought all of this baggage with me to therapy, too, and did have many moments of feeling that hurt that you describe. Hopefully, your therapist can gently talk you through the experience, helping to separate the fact that she cannot directly meet the need, or that it wouldn't be therapeutic or appropriate to do so, from the mistaken notion that it is a "bad" need.
Caviat---my current therapist seems to be gifted at analyzing and owning his own process and any subtle ways--verbal or nonverbal--that he might have communicated something to me that contributed to my feeling hurt, rebuffed, etc. I don't think some therapists can do this well. My previous therapist, in another city, did it fairly well, but not as well as my current therapist. Actually, that first therapist seemed to develop the skill over time--when I first started seeing him he was an intern and he would do the kind of kneejerk boundary drawing he was taught to do, but over time, he seemed to develop better finesse at this, so it felt less hurtful and more real.
And in the case of it not being helpful to meet a certain need, I think there is some danger that some therapists could say that when it is only part of the real reason for not meeting the need, the other parts being things like it isn't really feasible to meet the need for some reason,etc. Also, I think it's really important that the therapist convey a sense of accepting you and your needs and exploring the very real hurt feelings that come when a therapist says they can't meet a need (especially when the reason given is that it wouldn't be helpful), an acknowledgement of the hurt as a real thing in the room and not just in the past, and that the therapist cares deeply that you were hurt.
Posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 15:26:21
In reply to What I need, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 9:03:40
Fallsfall, if the issue of you looking to other people for validation like that has been a theme in therapy, I think he could still have responded in a warmer manner, like simply asking somthing like, "why wouldn't it be important?" Further, I think he could explore with you what you were perceiving about how he listened to and responded to what you were talking about--was there something about the manner in which he was listening and responding that conveyed either that it was important or not important? I think he could have responded in a number of ways without directly saying that he wasn't going to gratify your wish for direct validation because that is your issue. Sure, it's one of the issues you're in therapy for, but when you're feeling so vulnerable, there is no reason to have to have therapy be so "tough love"!
Your experience of this is that he was saying to you that you shouldn't need other people to validate you. I don't know if he was actually saying it or it was conveyed in the way he responded, but either way, it's beside the point for that moment in time. Needing the validation is where you were at at that moment. While simply gratifying it by saying, yes it was important, might not have seemed the way to go for him, I think you needed him to be more accepting of the fact that this is the place you were at--feeling vulnerable and needing the validation. And since you've discussed the need for validation before, it probably would have been more fruitful to look at the nuances of the situation as I described above.
Posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 15:29:24
In reply to Re: Getting Better » fallsfall, posted by tabitha on January 30, 2004, at 17:35:46
Tabitha wrote:
>Falls, I'm glad you found a way to view it as a learning experience instead of just painful. All therapists are different. What you described sounded a little cold, but you must have trust and history built up such that he could do that, and assume you'd be able to work it out on your own.
This made me realize that my responses in this thread are probably a bit overzealous!! I'm sorry. It must have touched a nerve in me. I think Tabitha is wise.
Posted by fallsfall on January 31, 2004, at 18:27:54
In reply to Re: Getting Better, posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 15:29:24
I appreciate your responses, Noa.
I had said something 2/3 of the way through the session about being afraid that he would think it was unimportant. He glossed over that and didn't really address it (but, we were still very much in the middle of the original discussion). I brought it up again after he said we had to stop. So there wasn't really time to go into it. I'm sure we will on Monday. The way he responded made it clear that he wasn't going to validate me, but that his reason for that decision was NOT that the subject was unimportant, NOR was it that he didn't care about me. I think that if he was going to say "no", that he did it in a pretty clear (and compassionate) way. (But it would have felt better for him to say "yes"...)
He and I haven't talked a lot about validation from others, but I spent some time with my previous therapist talking about it - so I know it is one of my issues.
Posted by Speaker on January 31, 2004, at 23:20:52
In reply to Re: Getting Better » noa, posted by fallsfall on January 31, 2004, at 18:27:54
Falls,
I once heard said: The lack of affirmation is disconfirming! I have found that so true and even if your T didn't want to comment on the topic you were on he could have affirmed you in other areas to let you know he values you. I'm sorry this is happening...Take Care.
Posted by antigua on February 1, 2004, at 11:50:07
In reply to Re: What I need » antigua, posted by fallsfall on January 31, 2004, at 8:51:59
This is the end of the thread.
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