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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 37. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 8:00:53
So we are supposed to ask for what we need. But what do you do when you ask for what you need, and your therapist verifies that they understand that this is what you need, but then they tell you that it wouldn't be "helpful" for them to fill this need.
It feels like my need is "bad". How are needs different from feelings? Feelings can't be "bad", they just are. Why can needs be "bad"?
Posted by lilmsbubbles07 on January 30, 2004, at 8:14:25
In reply to Asking for what you need, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 8:00:53
hmmm good ? what did u ask ur t that he/she could not fufill ??? if u dont mind me asking
Posted by Penny on January 30, 2004, at 8:28:23
In reply to Asking for what you need, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 8:00:53
Perhaps what he means is not that your need is 'bad' but that it is a need that he would like for you to learn to fulfill elsewhere. Mind you, I'm saying this without knowing what this particular need is, so I'm just guessing here!
P
Posted by Karen_kay on January 30, 2004, at 8:37:32
In reply to Asking for what you need, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 8:00:53
(((fallsfall)))
I'm so sorry that you're going through a hard time right now. I'm glad that you are posting though. I've been worried about you.
I don't think that needs can be bad. Or that feelings are bad either. They just are. But, I think that if a therapist gives into our needs and feelings without looking into why we have them, then it can be harmful to the process of healing. I know, it seems so generic. So, I'll give you an example from my perspective, K?
*I'm in a relationship that isn't working right now. It never really worked and it's obvious to everone that it isn't working. I've asked my therapist several times if I should just leave my boyfriend and he won't come out and sy it (though I know he thinks I should). I'm also indesicive, so if my therapist were to say, "Go and leave your boyfriend today." I have no doubt I would with a small amount of convincing. And though I know I should, I need him to tell me I should. But, it wouldn't help in in my progress, as that would only be letting someone else make the decision for me. And if I felt I made a mistake, I would blame him. He's trying to teach me to make my own decisions.
The need that you have also has to be in favor of helping you and not hindering you as well. If you need would hinder the process of therapy, then it wouldn't be beneficial for your therapist to give you that particular need. It would be beneficial to give you support, nurturing, advice, ect. to help you through, but not that need that you have. Does that make sense?
Take a look at your need and see if it is what you really "need." Is it beneficial to your therapy? Can you get it somewhere else? Could you get it from us or from other support systems?(((Fallsfall))) I'm so sorry you're hurting :(
Posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 9:03:40
In reply to Re: Asking for what you need, posted by Karen_kay on January 30, 2004, at 8:37:32
I spent the last couple of days digesting connections between memories and coming up with a "pattern" that seems to fit in my life. The pattern (without the details) is "When I am sick, I am bad and noone will come".
In yesterday's session I told my therapist about the different times that this was true in my life and, therefore, why I see it as a pattern.
The discussion was very dry. I experienced immense emotion in connection with these memories the day before, but in therapy it was all very mechanical. He seemed bored to me - heck, I was bored. I told him that I was afraid he would say "So what?". He didn't really respond. At the end, I told him that I had been nervous to come to the session because I was afraid he wouldn't "get it". He asked if I thought that he "got it", and I said no.
Then he said that he thought that I was asking him to validate that what I had been talking about was important. He was perfectly correct in this. I wanted to know that it was important, that I had done real work, that I had done a good job. He said that he didn't think that it would be helpful for me for him to validate it. He said that I knew that it was important, and that should be enough. I know that it is true that I tend to look to other people to tell me what is happening. I don't trust my own impressions. I assume that he is referring to this.
But I turned my heart inside out in the last two days. I just wanted him to say that it was worth it. That I had done a good job.
My first reaction was very strong. I was a complete failure at therapy. My issues are trivial. I have no cause to be sick. (Remember, when I am sick, I am bad). And I felt that, even though he had promised me the day before that he wouldn't abandon me, he emotionally abandoned me by not giving me any response on what I said (i.e. noone will be there). The strength of the reaction made me think that it was transference.
But I still want to plead with him for some validation.
Posted by lilmsbubbles07 on January 30, 2004, at 10:00:30
In reply to Re: Asking for what you need, posted by Karen_kay on January 30, 2004, at 8:37:32
well i totally agree with karen_kay i dont thin i could have said it better!!!! i am so sorry ur hurtin !!!
Posted by Penny on January 30, 2004, at 10:22:43
In reply to What I need, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 9:03:40
(((Falls)))
This is a tough one, and I'm not sure I can respond adequately - where's Dinah??? - but here are my thoughts, for what they're worth:
Do you feel that by not actively validating what you had been talking about, he was, in a way, invalidating the discussion? I'm not saying that he was, but am wondering if that's how it made you feel?
Truly, I'm not sure why he couldn't have given you that validation. I see his point in that you do need to recognize that your own validation is just as important, or moreso, than anyone else's. It's what YOU think/feel that matters.
At the same time, there are appropriate times for teaching certain lessons, and I question his timing on this one.
Another question - is there something else he could have done or said that would have helped you achieve that result, of feeling validated?
And did you tell him exactly what you told us? Did you actually say to him: 'But I turned my heart inside out in the last two days. I just want you to say that it was worth it. That I have done a good job.'? And, if not, do you think it would make a difference?
One more question - do YOU feel the work you did was important? Are you able to self-validate, with or without the validation of others?
P
Posted by justyourlaugh on January 30, 2004, at 10:26:20
In reply to What I need, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 9:03:40
i want to validate you ((fall))..
i do think it is the "role" of the t to make you understand that if its important to "you" it is "valid"..
whatever you feel is important,,these feeling only belong to you,,they are yours and they are "valid"...
i am talking in circles here but...stand up,,be counted.
j
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 11:03:17
In reply to What I need, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 9:03:40
LOL. Well, Dinah happens to agree with Penny. :P
First of all, your therapist has many fine and useful qualities, and has been very helpful to you. I don't mean to criticize him.
But it seems like he just perpetuated the perceived pattern in this case, and I think the better strategy would have been to provide you with a corrective emotional experience. To show you that a different result *can* happen with the right person. But... Maybe he has his reasons.
So here's my guess. You think. When I'm sick, I'm bad, and no one will come. When the truth is that in the past when you've been sick, there have been a lot of times that no one came, and you explained that to yourself by saying that no one came because you were bad. That way it left open the possibility that if you were "good" you'd get the care you needed in the future. When the truth was that your caretakers just had some limitations. So you come to him and tell him this, and what does he do? Repeats his part of the pattern, leaving you to fill in the rest of it with your usual explanation.
But maybe this time you could give yourself a different explanation? You could say, I was vulnerable (sick) and offered something of myself to my therapist, hoping for a certain response. His response, for whatever reason, felt invalidating. But that wasn't because I was bad. It was *him* not me. He lacked the attunement that we would ideally like from caretakers. He missed my cues, he was openly and frankly withholding, and it felt rotten. But it wasn't because I was bad. I was vulnerable, I tried hard, I did what I should in therapy. I was very very good. And being very good doesn't guarantee good results.
Ouch. That hurts me. I always like to think being good guarantees good results, too.
Posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 12:28:32
In reply to Re: What I need » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 11:03:17
hi fallsfall,
I had to respond, but as everyone says, this is just my opinion. But I admit, I'm biased...I don't get it. Was your T having a bad day or something? It seems to me that he picked the wrong "thing" for you to validate yourself on. Using the experience to "teach you lesson", I think, doesn't work when he is perpetuating "the lesson".
That's like my therapist (old one) ABRUPTLY (I mean immediately) abandoning me when he learned about my sexual abuse issues because he couldn't help me, when the major issue I face is that I feel I will be abandoned if I tell anyone about the abuse (i.e., if I told my mother, she would leave me, etc.) In my case, I was abandoned anyway, so fear of abandonment is my most major issue--and this T abandoned me. And he didn't get it either, when it was clear as a bell to me.
My T now literally jumps for joy when I figure those kinds of things out. She's always very reinforcing and supportive of the hard work, which you very obviously have done over the last several days. If mine responded that way I would have been crushed. For years my T has been telling me to give myself a lot of credit for pursuing these painful self-discoveries. She's my biggest cheerleader because she knows I've never had anyone to help me. I usually brush her off and say it's nothing, but she has convinced me that she is right. This IS incredibly hard work and when you put some pieces together like you did you want it acknowledged.
Maybe you could go back (or call) and tell him how you felt. That you know you feel good about your self-discovery (you do, don't you?) and you just wanted him to acknowledge it. It sounds like to me you didn't need him to approve, because you already do approve of what you've discovered about yourself. But it would have been better if he had been able to support you--not necessarily over the subject, but just over supporting you for having the strength to do this.
I'm sorry, but now I'm really mad... reminds me of that terrible T I had...
antigua
Posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 12:35:49
In reply to Re: What I need, posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 12:28:32
Yes, Dinah. I do believe that if I am very good that everything SHOULD be OK. I am crushed that the world doesn't really work that way.
Karen, I do think that he is viewing this as a teaching opportunity.
Penny, I didn't talk about turning my heart inside out with him. I do know that the work I did was important, but when he didn't validate it I started to question if that was really true. He did give me a little to hold on to, though - he said that "I knew that the work was important". So even though he didn't validate that the work was important, he acknowledged that the work felt important to me (and didn't say I was an idiot for feeling that way).
I felt last night like the work I had done was bad. I don't feel that way now. I think that what I did was important. I think that he just wanted me to learn a second lesson at the same time. He wanted me to learn that just because I'm NOT validated (like my parents didn't validate me) doesn't mean that what I'm doing isn't good. That I need to be able to give myself the gratification, rather than require it from somebody else. This doesn't mean that gratification from other people is wrong or bad. It really is wonderful and makes me feel good and all that stuff. But gratification from other people only works for that one time. If I can gratify myself by validating myself, I can do it all of the times. Sort of like the difference between giving someone a fish to eat, and teaching them how to fish. He didn't validate that what I had done was important because his hands were full of fishing poles instead.
I don't know if my therapist would fit in your group of middleaged wonderful therapists. He makes me work so very hard - learning the pattern and this lesson at the same time. And I go through a lot of pain as I am working so hard. He is definately not for everyone. But I have always preferred to take the short path, even though it is usually harder. And that is where he takes me. I think he really does fit me pretty well.
Thank you for adding your perspectives here. They help to make my hard work a little easier.
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 12:37:40
In reply to Re: What I need, posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 12:28:32
My word, Antigua. Such a horrible experience! I'm (nearly) speechless. I suppose it doesn't help the hurt much, but you are clearly better off without your first therapist. Abandoning a client is the very worst sin in my therapist book, and anyone who could do that has clients who would be waaay better off with someone else. Which is a contradiction, but still...
I'm glad you ended up in a much better place this time.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 30, 2004, at 12:47:19
In reply to What I need, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 9:03:40
First of all I will completely validate you for your hard work on finding that pattern. If I came into a session with a pattern like that I honestly think my therapist would faint. Then, for you to find the pattern repeating with your therapist after you pointed it out, well....Again, you're doing great work.
You said that you have a hard time trusting your own impressions of things. Well, maybe in trying to get you to realize that you should trust your own, he neglected to realize that you would see the similar pattern repeating? Is that a possibility? I mean that while he was encouraging you to trust your gut and get encouragement from within he failed to see the similarities of the pattern you just pointed out.
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 12:48:58
In reply to Getting Better, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 12:35:49
I admire your grit. I'd have walked away long ago, I think.
I like to understand why I do the things I do, but I like my cold hard truths polished a bit. A good bit. I like them polished, bevelled, and served in a lovely setting of warm support.
But that's why there are lots of different therapists. It astonishes me that not everyone would adore Big, but I suppose it's true. :)
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 14:51:35
In reply to Re: Getting Better » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 12:48:58
Fallsfall,
You are working so hard. Look at you still working to figure out what happened with your T. I admire you, especially because of the added pain of your T's reaction. I tend to agree with the others, that validation was warranated, but I guess I can also see it from your T's perspective.But again, you did very good work, and it made me jump up and down for you. I know I jump up and down for myself once I get past the emotional part of figuring something like that out on my own.
Which reminds me. You talked of it feeling mechanical in the session. I think it is hard to recreate those "aha!" moments after the fact. I had a similar experience I was dying to talk to my T about, but in session, it seemed like more "old news" and we moved on to other stuff. Perhaps your T just missed out on the importance of it because it happened prior, and you had moved past some of the emotion and were now more in thinking mode?
Thinking of you,
gg
Posted by tabitha on January 30, 2004, at 17:35:46
In reply to Getting Better, posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 12:35:49
Falls, I'm glad you found a way to view it as a learning experience instead of just painful. All therapists are different. What you described sounded a little cold, but you must have trust and history built up such that he could do that, and assume you'd be able to work it out on your own.
My therapist will often refuse to answer direct questions like that, but she'll at least guide me to answering them myself, usually by starting with 'Well what do you think?' so at least I don't leave the session feeling frustrated and lost.
Are you going to follow up with him about how you felt, and how hard the session was for you?
Posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 18:08:48
In reply to Re: What I need, posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 12:28:32
>>>That's like my therapist (old one) ABRUPTLY (I mean immediately) abandoning me when he learned about my sexual abuse issues because he couldn't help me, when the major issue I face is that I feel I will be abandoned if I tell anyone about the abuse (i.e., if I told my mother, she would leave me, etc.) In my case, I was abandoned anyway, so fear of abandonment is my most major issue--and this T abandoned me. And he didn't get it either, when it was clear as a bell to me.
<<<I've been lurking mostly for a few days -- hurting and struggling between sessions. But I had to write...you have no idea how this hits me...especially after the last two weeks. Especially after the last 2 days! It is so sad and scary - I'm so sorry this happened to you. I terrified that it is going to happen to me. The voices keep saying over and over, "telling is bad, telling is BAD" -- and your experience proves it.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 20:38:01
In reply to This is my biggest fear! » antigua, posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 18:08:48
Daisy and antigua,
I SO feel for you. I think any T abruptly abandoning is horrible. Even if the T believes that he or she is unqualified or unable to work with a client on a particular issue, there should never be an abrupt termination! There's no reason the T cannot process the change and the reasons behind it with you. The particular issue that triggered the T could be put on hold while you get an appropriate referral and an appropriate termination with one and transition to the other. I am outraged!Daisy, telling is not bad. Sometimes T's are bad, and that really hurts. But if your T is any good (sorry forgot which B you have), then he will not abandon you. Besides, it's against the APA ethics code to *abandon* a client for any reason other than if the T's own personal safety is at risk. If a T needs to terminate, it should be done profesionally.
Aack! Anger triggered! Righteous anger!
(((Daisy))) (((antigua)))
gg
Posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 20:54:48
In reply to Re: This is my biggest fear! » DaisyM, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 20:38:01
Actually, I do know that if a Therapist has a sanction they could be prohibited from working with specific types of clients. They don't necessarily have to disclose that this is why they terminated. Though they should.
I keep hearing stories about how hard it is to work with trauma and how many Therapists can't handle it. It frightens me because I know I don't want to say it all, so why should I assume anyone would be willing to hear it all? :(
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 21:07:56
In reply to Re: This is my biggest fear! » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 20:54:48
Daisy,
That fear makes a lot of sense. Especially because you are a caring person and would worry about others' reactions. And because you want to be able to tell safely. Hopefully you can get to a point when you trust your T enough to try it out.I know I have listened to clients talk about trauma. It's very painful to see them hurting so much and to hear about things which should NEVER happen to children or even human beings of any age. But somehow we utilize our training and professionalism, along with our desire to be present and open with the client to cope with our own feelings. I'm not sure how I even do it, but after particulary intense sessions with clients, I somehow find a way to "discharge" the emotion. It usually doesn't hang on. That doesn't mean that I no longer feel empathy, but the intensity drops off so I don't carry everyone's stuff home with me or into the next session with someone else.
Do you think you could eventually trust your T to be able to do this? Can you talk to him about your fear itself and your concern about his reaction? Maybe that will help eventually set the stage for talking about it when you are ready.
(Holding your hand in the fear)
gg
Posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 21:22:06
In reply to Re: This is my biggest fear!, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 21:07:56
Thank you for offering to hold my hand...it feels sweet.
I have started to tell him all the awful stuff, we've gone from general statements to more specific incidences. For the last two weeks, we've really been dealing with the ugly stuff. I trust him tons...he tells me I'm doing fine and that he wants to hear it, all of it, in detail, when I'm ready. I told him yesterday how much I was afraid he would walk away, decide I was too screwed up to handle, this isn't how we started so it is more than he anticipated. He tells me he totally understands why I'm afraid, why I need to only rely on me...but that he isn't going anywhere no matter how hard I try to push him away. In fact, when I react like this he always wants me to come more. (He's pushy that way!)
So the fear has no real basis in the present day. But it is HUGE. And it threatens to smother me. It makes me feel 9 years old. And I hate that!
I keep thinking about Karen, who is struggling to get her memories back. I totally sympathize with her, but I want mine to go away!
And then I read posts like antigua's and I allow it to feed the fear. My control over all of this is slipping and I feel it bleeding into the rest of my life. And I hate that too.
Never should have opened this Pandora's box...never...never...
Posted by deirdrehbrt on January 30, 2004, at 22:53:23
In reply to Re: This is my biggest fear! » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 21:22:06
I don't usually post on Psychology, but Having read this thread prompted me to.
It's awfull that a therapist would abandon a client, but it happens in many ways, and all too often, from what I've been reading and from people I've spoken to.
Falls, I don't know if you feel the same way, but I kind of think that your last therapist abandoned you; not by leaving, or terminating her work with you, but by distancing herself, and not helping you anymore. The hell you went through for the months preceeding the time you left was terrible. The fact that you picked yourself up, and the steps that you took to find a T who could help you were Herculean, and in finding one who could, and would work with you, whom you qualified on your own is fabulous. You truly inspired me.
For everyone else, I'll mention my own bit of abandonment. The last T that I had called me, while I was in the hospital, to tell me that She was leaving the agency, and that She hoped I could find someone else to work with. The can be SO much help.
My two cents,
Dee
Posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 22:55:36
In reply to Re: What I need, posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 12:28:32
Antigua,
I think that it is unforgivable that your therapist abandoned you. As one who fears abandonment, I know only too well the intensity of that pain.
I have enough experience with this therapist to KNOW (with NO doubt) that he cares about me. And that he carefully makes decisions, and that he tries always to make them in my best interest. He tend to be quite blank slate, but once in a while his human side shows through - and he is a deeply caring man. I also have enormous respect for his intellect and experience. I looked around before I chose him, and I believe strongly that we are a good fit.
This doesn't mean that he never makes mistakes. He does, and we talk about them. He also really does try to explain to me why he makes certain decisions. In this case he told me specifically that he was NOT going to validate that what I had done was important BECAUSE he felt that if he did so that it would not be helpful to me in the long run. So while I was hurting (because he didn't validate me), I was also hearing that it was for "my own good". Now, that isn't always what we want to hear. And it wasn't what I wanted to hear yesterday. But at least I knew that he was trying his best to "care" for me - and as much as I felt "bad", I did NOT feel "hopeless". I knew that if I couldn't work through the "bad" that I could page him and that he would call me back and that we could talk about it. I KNEW that it would BE OK, even if it didn't FEEL OK at the time.
I did ask for this - when I chose him for my therapist he asked why him over the others. My answer was that he was efficient - he didn't waste time on things that weren't important. And this is what he is giving me now. Instead of waiting for the next time when he could encourage me to validate myself, he chose to do it now. I support that - most of the agony associated with finding this pattern had past.
I know he can sound harsh (but I truly hear the softness of his caring every time). My pain can be intense (but I do have enough coping skills to call for help before it is too late). You all have helped me time and again to process the information, and I thank you. The system works for me (and I hope that it doesn't NOT work for you).
Posted by fallsfall on January 30, 2004, at 23:03:05
In reply to Re: Abandonment, posted by deirdrehbrt on January 30, 2004, at 22:53:23
Yes, Dee, I do feel that my first therapist abandoned me. She neglected me emotionally - much the same as my mother has done for my whole life. But it is easier for me to forgive my mother - she simply doesn't have the equipment to be emotionally present. My old therapist is quite capable of being emotionally present. She should have addressed the issues that were causing our stalemate, rather than withdrawing into a superficial relationship. Her inaction felt very much like abandonment.
Posted by antigua on January 30, 2004, at 23:25:42
In reply to This is my biggest fear! » antigua, posted by DaisyM on January 30, 2004, at 18:08:48
Daisy, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel that way. Me and my big mouth (oops, telling things again, I have such a hard time striking the right balance, but I bet you understand).
But yes, I was devastated. I had agreed to trust this guy (you won't find me in the I Love My Male Therapist club)-- I actually said those words out loud, "I am going to trust you" (and I don't trust ANYONE except my regular T and to a certain extent my husband, and not even him fully). He told me I would never be well unless I trusted him. So I took a deep breath and took that big leap... and I was wrong. He wasn't worth my trust. I hate him still. But the hard part for me is separating out which part belongs w/him, the evil therapist, and which part belongs to my transference onto him of my father. I mean, he became my "bad father" right in front of my eyes. But, he is a real person and really did treat me this way, very unethically in my book. I'm not projecting that part onto him. So I'm still messed up about it. I told him he had done some terrible damage and his great response was, "I'm sorry, but good-bye." I hate him, but I have these feelings too. I'm still humiliated and embarrassed that I opened myself up to him and he rejected me.
I'm not making a lot of sense. But, you see, I have always had my regular T whom I have been seeing for 13 years (I am not a therapy junkie, it just really has taken me this long). I often say that my strength is also my greatest weakness; I built some really strong defenses to cope w/this and I had a lot to break through to even know about this, much less to begin dealing with it.
My regular T is the greatest woman in the word, I nominate her for "Best T". I was very fortunate to have her to turn to. Stupidly, I thought all therapists were like her.
Daisy, this will NOT happen to you. You seem to have a good relationship w/yours and he does care about you. There's no denying that it's always a risk, but I have to take that risk if I want to get past this. I've worked way too hard to let that evil therapist destroy me. But he almost did, literally. (I'm feeling good about this name, "evil therapist").
I did learn something important, though, but it's not pleasant. I now realize how hard it is for other people to hear about this type of abuse. To me it doesn't seem like such a big deal because it happened and there's nothing I can do about it. I know this means I'm not really in touch w/it, or that I minimalize it, but if I can tolerate it why do other people have so much trouble w/it? I feel like I have a big red letter on my forehead (what letter should it be?) and that people look or think of me differently because of it. Not that many people in my real life know about it--my husband and two really close friends, but they even have trouble w/it. My husband is a good man, but he is embarrassed by it, he admitted it to me. I think he thinks it's a reflection on him in some way. So while I think I've come a long way, I still have a long way to go.
best,
antigua
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