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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by metalflipflop on January 25, 2004, at 22:14:51
hello all,
i posted pretty recently about my therapist who absolutely blindsided me by refusing me a hug as i was leaving home for my winter break. it had been okay with her before, so it was just so painful for me to really put myself out there to be shot down. it took me well over a year to really trust her anyway, which felt so good until this thing.
anyway, i went in to talk to her about it as soon as i came back here (a week early, and for that purpose). i wrote her two letters while i was gone, just explaining how awful it felt and how confused i was. on the phone she told me she wouldn't read them until i was in front of her, which was missing the whole point. i just wanted her know, to listen. so it was a hellish three weeks. but i saw her, said everything i needed to, and she was like, "liz, i am really going to think on all this; i am so sorry i put you through all this; i know i messed up big time."
i felt so relieved, that she was going to finally get it, to say it's not a big deal for us to hug sometimes. i cannot describe the weight lifted from my shoulders when i left her office.
when i came back the next day (so upset for so long = a lot of appts), she said that she had been inconsistent with me and it had hurt me, so this was how it was going to be: no more hugs except for the last time i ever see her if i want, and NO MORE PHONE CALLS unless i want to hurt myself and it's life-threatening.
ripped into two. that's how i felt. in the year i have seen her, i have been able to call (and i never abuse this privilege) when i am extremely upset for her to talk to me for a couple minutes. not long, just hear her voice and know that she is listening. she said she's never felt i called inappropriately, but that this is "just how it is" from now on. she said this has always been one of her rules.
could it get any worse? i don't know why these changes, i don't know why she is taking supportive things away in a period that, let me tell you, i need to feel i can rely on her. i am learning to allow myself my emotions, good and bad, and knowing that i can call her if something awful happens and i am really upset has been such a comfort. i don't like that the policy stipulates wanting to self-harm--what kind of message does that send? 1. i could lie to get her to talk to me. 2. i could, consciously or subconsciously, reach a point of wanting to hurt myself much sooner (i very, very rarely have done this). it all just feels like such backward steps, so many wrong moves on her part, so much that feels emotionally wrong in my heart, so much that hurts. over and over i tried to tell her why she can't do this to me, that i can't handle it right now and can we re-evaluate all the new rules later. over and over i asked why, saying i need an explanation beyond "b/c i say so". guys, i was so desperate.
it just went around in circles though, and finally i realized--this isn't healthy for me, this is stressing me out beyond belief and my anxiety is through the roof. i'm hurt, i'm so confused, and she isn't helping on either of those counts.
so i told her i needed a break, for some unspecified length of time. maybe if i get some perspective and the wounds don't hurt so bad, i can go back and live with the "new way." somehow i am doubtful though, and it's just horrible b/c i love her to death, she has been so good to me until now. i have been making so much progress in therapy, figuring things out, and though it feels good to have a break from hearing no, no, no from her, i am at a loss without someone to process with. i keep thinking of things i want to tell her, i feel like calling her and scheduling, but then i remember what has happened and i just can't do it. i wrote her one more letter and slipped it under office door, laying everything out, my honest heart and soul, saying that i don't want to lose her over this but can she see the position i am in? the last thing i feel able to do now is start with a new therapist--god, no way. anyway, i'm in college and i have a year and a half here til i'm out--why build another relationship that is going to take the majority of that time?
i want to work with her, i want to preserve this awfully close attachment i feel for her, but i need an explanation. do i deserve that? is it okay for me to need that? i just feel like this is so much more about her issues than about me. it's just that either way i look at it i feel fear and no good options. i am struggling so much, any opinions would be appreciated. i feel so alone again, and it's so familiar, that dread. i learned to trust her, and that trust feels so wrecked. i think we could repair it, but not as things stand now.
=(
thanks for reading,
liz
Posted by Catmom on January 25, 2004, at 22:54:41
In reply to needing a hug, being refused part II (long), posted by metalflipflop on January 25, 2004, at 22:14:51
Dear Liz,
I really feel for you. My opinion off the top of my head is that we do indeed deserve explanations of the therapist's rationale for a change in conduct. She could very simply tell you whatever her reasons are: something along the lines of 1) I don't want you to be dependent or 2) I only can dedicate X numbers of minutes to each patient every week and those are taken up by session-time or 3) Our relationship has evolved and here's my opinion on why I don't want to use the telephone.
The final point, I think, is that you are left feeling that she does not respect you (I hope that I am not putting words in your mouth). If her response of "that's just how it is" is her concept of an adequate, respectful explanation...well, I cannot agree. But then again I am not in practice. It seems like a cop-out response to me and a cowardly one. Certainly you deserve to know the reasoning. I would think that an ideal is a therapeutic alliance, where you both are working on creating the kind of relationship that's most helpful to you.I also think that therapy can be totally effective without the T dealing in power ploys.
Inconsistency is maddening in general, but even more so in therapy in my opinion. I think that it is probably appropriate and desirable to see some change in the nature of your interactions over time, but not to suddenly face a brand new regime without talking it through.
You have all my sympathies, believe me. And I hope that you understand that I am feeling for you and I don't want to hurt you even more by seeming to condemn your therapist.
Is there any chance that she's hoping that you will confront her and "stand up" for yourself? I don't know if therapists ever engage in that kind of manipulation, but somehow I would not put it past them.
Much compassion; a virtual hug in your direction.
Posted by Dinah on January 25, 2004, at 23:05:41
In reply to needing a hug, being refused part II (long), posted by metalflipflop on January 25, 2004, at 22:14:51
Hi Liz. I wish I had something to say to help you feel better, but I just don't. I don't blame you at all for your attitude and mine would probably be the same, except with a lot more tantrums involved.
If Pandabear's update is the sort that makes me feel good inside, your story is one of those that makes me scared silly of trusting my therapist.
For me, personally, a no call policy would be a deal breaker. My therapist has told me I never abuse the privilege, but if I didn't have the ability to call, I don't know what I'd do. It would make me frantic, I think. And adding the self injury clause seems as stupid as all get out, for the reason you mentioned. Maybe she's got her reasons, but I don't do real well with that arms folded attitude.
I'm really sorry, Liz, that you're having to deal with this. :( I wish all therapists were like mine and Pfinstegg's and Daisy's (Daisy, your therapist is rapidly drawing close to one of my favorites.)
Posted by pegasus on January 25, 2004, at 23:34:43
In reply to needing a hug, being refused part II (long), posted by metalflipflop on January 25, 2004, at 22:14:51
Metal, I think this is a very poor way to be treated by a therapist. In your position, I would be devastated. I am almost certain that I would leave that therapist. As you said, trust is a big deal in therapy, and changing the rules midstream is a very trust breeching thing. I would have hoped that she would at least acknowledge that her actions would be difficult for you. And in a perfect world, if she really had good reasons for making these changes, she would explain them to you carefully, and help you process the feelings they brought up for you. All the while being respectful and mindful of the pain her decision was causing you.
I've heard of people seeking consultations in situations like this where it seems that the therapy is in jeopardy but both the client and therapist want to preserve it. I think the idea is that you find a neutral second therapist, and consult with them (either with our without your therapist) about the situation. I'm not sure what exactly would happen at that point, although I'm pretty sure the whole thing would involve conversation between your therp and this neutral therp about your situation. I'm guessing that might be helpful to you at this crisis point, and maybe it'll be a way you can salvage your relationship with your therapist.
-p
Posted by lookdownfish on January 26, 2004, at 6:00:53
In reply to needing a hug, being refused part II (long), posted by metalflipflop on January 25, 2004, at 22:14:51
I agree with the other replies. I think you have been treated badly. One of the reassuring things about therapy is the consistency especially when other things in your life are unpredictable. So I totally understand you feeling devastated by this.
I don't understand why the no phone calls rule. Do you call often? Have you been calling more often than you used to? My therapist doesn't encourage me to call her; she says I can call "if it can't wait". I hardly ever call, but if I do, she is not willing to talk for long, and quickly wraps the conversation up. But she has always been like that, so painful though it is not to be able to ring up and have a nice soothing chat, I know the limits, so I don't expect anything else. But if your therapist has previously been willing to accept calls and you have not over-used that, then she must surely give you a good explanation for the change. If, as you said this has "always been one of her rules", then it is entirely her fault for not enforcing it in the first place.
It doesn't sound as if she's likely to respond to your letter. Would it help to schedule a one-off session, just to process this some more? Even if you do still feel you can't trust her anymore, maybe it would make you feel better to get angry with her. Maybe you could then see a way forward?
Posted by gardenergirl on January 26, 2004, at 6:27:55
In reply to Re: needing a hug, being refused part II (long) » metalflipflop, posted by lookdownfish on January 26, 2004, at 6:00:53
I'm sorry you are going through this. It sounds so confusing and hurtful. Your situation made me wonder if your T is a trainee or someone who regularly undergoes supervision. Her change in the rules may have come at the recommendation of a supervisor. I do think you deserve a better explanation than it seems she gave you. Perhaps she feels ashamed that she has been inconsistent and does not want to talk about the reasons for the changes?? Perhaps she disagrees with her supervisor (if she has one) and does not know how to explain it to you without getting into those issues??
I'm just speculating here. But your situation reminds me of a client I had when I was in my third year of training. I often allowed extra sessions, extra long sessions, and phone calls based on his requests. I thought I was being helpful and supportive, but my supervisor pointed out that I had not set a therapeutic frame. Once I set and stuck to the frame, therapy actually progressed faster. But I needed to explain to my client why I was making changes, and it was kind of embarrassing to admit to him that I had made some mistakes.
I don't know if this fits your situation. Bottom line, though, you deserve a better explanation.
(((((Liz))))) not from a T, but hopefully helps.
Take care,
gg
Posted by metalflipflop on January 26, 2004, at 9:42:26
In reply to Re: needing a hug, being refused part II (long), posted by gardenergirl on January 26, 2004, at 6:27:55
thank you all for your responses, it really means a lot for people to "get it."
my therapist spent a couple years at my university counseling center, and now a couple years in her own practice. so she isn't 'seasoned,' i would say, but she is very smart, (usually) very caring, and she understands the college student demographic. i have liked her all along b/c she is young (late 30s) and contemporary in her ideas and methods. i still have all this transference for her as my mom though, ha.
saying no more touch between us really sucks, i don't get it, i think it's kind of ridiculous, but i think (think) i could deal with it. the phone call policy though, that is the one that put us on this "break." she agrees with me that i've never abused the old policy of only calling when i need to. she doesn't have a supervisor but maybe a support group?--i don't really know. i wish i could get a straight answer at where these changes have come from.
i have thought about asking if she would want to get a consultation, mostly b/c she has been so good for me and we are finally getting somewhere on past traumas and the symptoms they caused (pretty severe depression, anxiety, anorexia). it's such bad timing, when i am so engaged!
do you think she would agree to a consultation if i put it that way, and how do we find that person who can be as objective as is possible? do we all three meet or would that be wrong b/c i would be observing her speak as a client to this other person (i.e. is this bad for the therapy relationship)? (well, i don't know if it could be worse anyway). do i pay for this therapist's hour? or do we both? who calls him/her?
so many questions, but i don't even know if it could happen. i will give it some time, to let her think. i will give her time to read my letter and think it over, and even to reply if she will do that for me. then maybe i will broach the subject. by then, she can look back on the last month or so and re-read the whole spectrum of my anger. ;)
thank you again. i hope this gets better soon.
liz
Posted by Catmom on January 26, 2004, at 13:38:29
In reply to Re: needing a hug, being refused part II (long), posted by metalflipflop on January 26, 2004, at 9:42:26
Dear Liz,
Just wanted you to know that I am thinking of you and I am in your corner. My therapist has never hugged me, but if she had done so, I would think it very difficult to adjust to the change. And very traumatic.
I also wonder about her failure to read your letters. To me, it would break my heart if I had sent my therapist something and she did not bother to open it until we were in session together. I am not saying that the therapist has to respond between sessions, but in the written communicaions I have made to my therapist, she has always read them and comments on them in session.
One thing that we don't really need is the sense that our therapist, a singularly important person in our lives, is not caring. I think a lot of us (and I apologize for generalizing) are here because we were inadequately cared for when younger. We need a "corrective" experience and even if it does not involve a hug, it should involve a steady, sturdy amount of attention.
I just wanted to write; nothing really new to add except to say that I really am thinking of you and hoping that you are feeling good about yourself. It stinks sometimes when therapy makes us feel bad about ourselves (which has happened to me in two sorts of ways: the helpful way in which I learn things and add things up OR the unhelpful way in which I feel diminished, unrespected, and as if my feelings are somehow "wrong."
Take good care!
Posted by DaisyM on January 26, 2004, at 13:51:13
In reply to Re: needing a hug, being refused part II (long), posted by gardenergirl on January 26, 2004, at 6:27:55
>>>But your situation reminds me of a client I had when I was in my third year of training. I often allowed extra sessions, extra long sessions, and phone calls based on his requests. I thought I was being helpful and supportive, but my supervisor pointed out that I had not set a therapeutic frame.
<<<See, this worries me. My Therapist encourages me to call, "if only to have someone help you hold all this stuff." He often wants to know if I want to come back after an especially hard session. We always start on time and we rarely go over, but that is usually me, looking to flee. So now I don't know what to think. I guess it must depend on what issue you are working on, why the person has come to therapy, individually how that person is doing and how the therapy is progressing. My Therapist isn't a novice, he has been in practice over 20 years.
Phone calls for me have, off and on, been important, so I can't imagine having that rule. (I do pay for calls, BTW, if they go more than 5 minutes and are not just "business" type stuff.) On the other hand, if no calling had been in place when I started, I would have assumed it was a universal rule...
I'm gonna ask him about this today even though I know he will tell me that "my" therapy isn't suppose to be like anyone elses and that I have to trust that he knows what he is doing and that it isn't my job to worry about him...blah, blah, blah.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 26, 2004, at 14:36:31
In reply to Phone calls » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on January 26, 2004, at 13:51:13
> <<<See, this worries me. My Therapist encourages me to call, "if only to have someone help you hold all this stuff." He often wants to know if I want to come back after an especially hard session.
Daisy,
PLEASE don't worry about your own therapeutic frame/arrangements with your T as compared to what I described. I actually have clients with whom I also encourage between session phone calls. There is, in fact, a type of therapy, dialectical behavior therapy (DBT), which is set up to allow for phone calls and extra help to get through between sessions. There is nothing inherently wrong with calling your T or extra sessions if that is what is part of your arrangements.With the client I was referring to, the issue is really that I did not recognize his dependent and antisocial personality traits and was actually fostering this dependency. I was concerned about being inconsistent with him when I changed the rules, but I hope that I explained my reasoning well. Once he realized that he could not play me and trigger my over-helping counter-transference by throwing a tantrum or by making claims against the staff, the therapy went better.
Perhaps this was not the best example to share. In some ways, it's really hard to compare therapy experiences given how many different problems, diagnoses, personalities etc. exist in clients and in T's.
Daisy, you are doing fine! I'm sorry if my post triggered anxiety. If I can explain further, please let me know.
gg
Posted by DaisyM on January 26, 2004, at 14:57:46
In reply to Re: Phone calls » DaisyM, posted by gardenergirl on January 26, 2004, at 14:36:31
Thanks for the explanation and reassurance. It continues to be one of my biggest struggles - need/don't need, call/don't call...I don't want to be the problem client!!
My Therapist will tell you it is partly my way of avoiding the hard stuff...as in, "if no one can really handle this, then I shouldn't talk about it."
See how far I've come? I at least know what he is gonna say, even if I still make him say it!
*sigh*
Posted by gardenergirl on January 26, 2004, at 15:03:36
In reply to Re: Phone calls » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on January 26, 2004, at 14:57:46
I think knowing what he would say is progress. It's one of the first steps towards healing yourself. Glad you understood. I was worried that my post was upsetting.
Take care,
gg
Posted by mair on January 26, 2004, at 15:11:46
In reply to needing a hug, being refused part II (long), posted by metalflipflop on January 25, 2004, at 22:14:51
I'd like to second what some of the other posters said about the phone calls. This doesn't make sense if you haven't been crossing her invisible boundaries.
When I started with my T, she never spoke to me at all about phone calls. I inferred that she really didn't want people calling. The subject came up after I had been seeing her for over a year and was in very bad shape. She made some offhand remark like "you have my home number, don't you" and was a little nonplussed I think when she found out that I had concluded that I shouldn't ever call her regardless of circumstances. It took us several sessions to work through the phone issue, largely due to my enormous reluctance to ever bother her at home. She ultimately established a policy with me that I could call whenever I felt like talking with her at all. But it's pretty obvious to me that she has this policy with me because she knows I would never abuse it.
My speculation is that she never said anything about phone calling when we first started meeting because she didn't want to encourage me to call her if I was going to be the kind of patient who called alot anyway. So maybe Ts tailor the policy to the patient.
That's all well and good, but I think they have to be careful about the message being conveyed. If my T had come out when we first met and said what your therapist said, I might have stayed with her, but I sure as hell wouldn't ever call and I'd probably resent her a little for establishing an unnecessary boundary. If she suddenly announced a new rule in the same manner your T did, I'd be as blown away as you seem to be, particularly since there doesn't appear to be a real context for the change.
Mair
Posted by pegasus on January 27, 2004, at 14:40:31
In reply to needing a hug, being refused part II (long), posted by metalflipflop on January 25, 2004, at 22:14:51
Hi Metal,
Well, I'm no expert here, but if you're interested in consulting with a different therapist, I think you can find that second therp the same way you found your first one. If your current therp belongs to some guild or professional organization, you could find another person in that organization. Or maybe you can see someone recommended by a friend or doctor? Common sense seems to dictate that you wouldn't want your therp to recommend a second therp, because maybe it would just be her best friend or someone who would be predisposed to see things her way.
I think what you generally do is make an appointment for just yourself, after letting your therp know that you feel you need to do this. Then you talk over the situation with the other therp, and see what they recommend you do. Maybe they'll recommend that they talk to your regular therp. I've heard of people sitting down with their therp and another therp, to talk about a conflict. I think, unfortunately, you get to pay for all of this.
I know it sounds like a lot, and I'm so sorry you have to even consider this. I can't imagine how much it must hurt to have the rules changed like this all of a sudden, in a way that's hard to take. I agree with some of the previous posters that your therapist really owes you more of an explanation and certainly more understanding that it seems she's given you lately about this. But maybe she'll come through eventually. I hope so, for your sake! We're definitely thinking of you.
- p
Posted by CareBear04 on January 28, 2004, at 17:06:17
In reply to needing a hug, being refused part II (long), posted by metalflipflop on January 25, 2004, at 22:14:51
Hey Liz,
Sorry I'm late reading this post. I feel so bad that you're going through this right now, and I know exactly what you mean about only having so much time left in college and not wanting to start a relationship that will take time to build only to have it end soon. I just left my old therapist (whom I loved) and have a new one now, and I think it's just sort of a waste of time and money to see him often and to spend all these sessions building the foundation for future work... when there really won't be time for future work.
Honestly, though, it sounds like your therapist is even more confused than you are. Even though you really love her, maybe you would do better with someone else who is more experienced and more sure of herself and confident enough to admit her mistakes. I've seen a lot of psych residents, and even though I've liked them a lot, especially since they're young, I have felt much more uneasy and confused because they're still trying to figure this therapy stuff out.
Anyway, I really really hope it all works out for you. Sorry I don't have more to say.
CB
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