![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 47. Go back in thread:
Posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 14:49:13
In reply to Re: More quesions answered by Bubba » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 22, 2004, at 14:07:37
Yeah, he doesn't acknowledge his clients first. He only says hi if the client says hi first. He made that perfectly clear to me. I told him my feelings would be hurt if he didn't acknowledge me first, but I completely understand. Well, I guess.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:33:44
In reply to Re: Bubba (my therapist) freaked out!! » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 12:00:27
Ouch..I couldn't stop shaking because he was really upset during the session, so I called so he would say, "It's OK, I'm not mad, blah blah blah." He didn't really say that. I could tell by his tone he was still very mad at me. He did say that now I know where the boundaries are. I can ask questons but not attempt to get involved in his personal life. That's not what I was doing. I HATE being misunderstood!!!
And he said that I crossed a boundary by looking his number up in the phone book. Now, how stupid is that? Am I the only one who thinks that is totally ridiculous? I mean honestly, some one tell me the truth on this one. I am not a stalker, but he makes me feel like I am. He told me that he didn't believe me when I said I didn't drive by his house. Then he said he only did it to test my reaction. HUH??? Well, at least I've learned not to be honest with him again. And I don't think he's that handsome either. (Is that black and white thinking or just being realistic now? Stupid dx...Gets me every time.)
I have half a mind to tell him that if he didn't tell me so much about his stupid personal life I wouldn't be so interested. But, of course I won't. Golly gee guys, I just feel awful! Like someone let all the air out of my balloon. Bubba didn't handle this situation so well. I felt accused and I don't like that feeling. I understand that he was a bit freaked out when I told him this, but I haven't ever called him or harrassed him. And he knows that. And I was being honest. Now I just feel foolish. Why is it that I stick my foot in my mouth so often, just at the wrong times. I wish I had my foot in my mouth before I let this whole situation slip out. At least then I wouldn't feel so horrible. Besides, aren't they supposed to make you feel better? :(
Posted by Joslynn on January 22, 2004, at 16:54:11
In reply to I called Bubba :(, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:33:44
oh sweetie, this isn't your fault! Yes you are right, he is the one who opened this window into his personal life, now he is slamming it down shut, when you didn't even really do anything. He shouldn't have been so personal if he doesn't want to intrigue clients, IMO.
Looking in the phone book is crossing boundaries? That's just silly. He should get a completely unlisted number then. Most therapists have that.
It sounds like he is learning by experience where he wants his boundaries, which is something I wish for your sake he would have thought about in grad school. It seems like different therps have different styles, and now he is changing in mid-stream.
As someone who grew up with the changing rules that are so common in alcoholic families, nothing is more annoying to me than relationships that arbitrarily change midstream! But that's me.
Ok, maybe now the thing is to just let it drop for a while and not call him again.
The irony is, if you were some stalker, why would you tell him all this?! I mean, wouldn't someone like that be sneaky?
Posted by Penny on January 22, 2004, at 19:07:26
In reply to I called Bubba :(, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:33:44
Karen,
As Joslynn said, and I want you to drill this into your head - you did NOTHING wrong!!!!!!!!!
I kinda think of the therapy relationship sort of like the therapist is the 'responsible adult' and the client is the 'child.' Not that we should always act like children in therapy, but therapy does have a way of drawing out our primitive survival instincts - encouraging attachment to our Ts that, in many ways, mimics the attachment a child has to his/her caregiver. It is totally up to the therapist to enforce boundaries, and he/she should begin by setting them up to start with. Bubba, however, has neglected to be clear on how far he is willing to let your knowledge of his personal life go.
Of course you looked him up in the phone book - why wouldn't you? As Joslynn said, if he's that concerned about it, he really should have an unlisted number. Looking his number up in the phone book is the least one of his clients would do...even if it's not listed under his name.
And, as you said, if he hadn't shared so much, you might not be as enticed to go searching for more. This is a problem for him, but he has no right to take it out on you. What really makes me angry with him, however, is his 'testing' you by saying he didn't believe you didn't drive past his house to see your reaction. Uh...he's playing games now? That's highly unprofessional, and I think he needs to know that he might only be 29 years old, and he may need a few more years to grow up, but he needs to get it together now and leave HIS issues, which is what this sounds like, at the door. He is YOUR therapist, and you shouldn't have to worry about taking care of him, sparing his feelings, or whatever. Mutual respect is a must, but he needs to deal with his own feelings regarding this without involving you in that process. This is not your problem.
Perhaps he needs his own therapist. Really.
Karen, don't be hard on yourself. You did what many of us here have done, and you told him, and we all would have expected that this wouldn't have been a big deal for him considering how much he's shared with you already and his youth (meaning he should know how easily accessible his info is on the 'net).
Sorry - it just makes me upset to hear that you are feeling bad because he isn't handling this in the way he should.
P
Posted by Dinah on January 22, 2004, at 19:07:44
In reply to I called Bubba :(, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:33:44
It could have gone either way. And how it went had more to do with him than with you. Internet savvy therapists are aware of googling and don't get upset. But internet ignorant (and how at 28 is he so ignorant?) therapists sometimes get really upset when they find out what's available. So he's probably mad at himself for not figuring it out (and he should be), and his wife for putting his name on that site, and the internet, and the d*mn dog, and you.
After all, what did you do that was so awful. You googled him. Half the world is googling themselves and the rest of the world. I mean, good heavens, you would want to know if he was mentioned in the newspaper for something dreadful, or if he had written a really ridiculous article for a psych magazine. And when you found out what his wife's name was, quite by accident, you looked it up in the phone book because you were curious. Hardly a sin. I think a lot of us want to physically locate them someplace so that we know how likely we are to run into them.
Tell him a heck of a lot of us do it, and if it will help, we'll start a thread where we all reassure him that we've googled our therapists and haven't stalked them. He just didn't know it and he should thank you for letting him know. A "Dear Karen's therapist" thread. (You can cut and paste so this website address doesn't come up.)
So quit shaking. You are not a terrible person, you're just human. And remember, Penny's first therapist was a bit upset with her over it, but they got past it. And my therapist gets mad at me *all* the time, enough to yell!!! And we've been in therapeutic relationship for going on nine years, and the anger didn't kill the relationship.
I know it's hard, but maybe you can see this as a learning experience. He can learn what's available on him online, and what clients are like, and where he wants his boundaries. You can learn that people can get angry and still like you and want to continue a relationship with you.
It doesn't sound like he wants to terminate or anything, so you've got time to work through this. It feels awful, and I wish I could make it all better, but you'll get through it.
So tell me, did he answer all the underwear questions before or after you told him?
Posted by ILoveYou,PeeWee! on January 22, 2004, at 20:13:17
In reply to I called Bubba :(, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:33:44
I wouldn't worry too much. If you get too worked up, just picture him sitting around in his underpants.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 22, 2004, at 21:42:06
In reply to Re: I called Bubba :(, posted by ILoveYou,PeeWee! on January 22, 2004, at 20:13:17
Karen sweetie, you did absolutely NOTHING wrong. Honestly, is Bubba right out of school or something?? I don't understand how you can be 28 years old and not realize that if you have a phone number in the phone book then people are going to know your freaking phone number!
I don't understand how how he can ask you how big your boobs are, tell you basically that he masturbates to your and other patients images, tells you that he cleans the house naked(therefore making you immediately think of him naked) and then starts talking about boundaries because you typed his name into a search engine used by millions of people around the world???
I know you love your therpist Karen and feel he has done great things for you, but I have such a serious bone to pick with him...
Posted by gardenergirl on January 22, 2004, at 22:17:18
In reply to Re: I called Bubba :(, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 22, 2004, at 21:42:06
Karen,
I have nothing to add, really, as I agree with what everyone else has said. I admire your courage for talking to him about this. You truly have guts, girl.Take care of yourself. You did nothing wrong!!!
gg
Posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
In reply to Re: I called Bubba :(, posted by gardenergirl on January 22, 2004, at 22:17:18
You're all very sweet and I truly appreciate it. I was talking with a friend today and it made me realize how very much something like that could freak someone out though. I mean, come on that would be pretty scary. "Oh, by the way, I know where you live and what your wife looks like and your dog." That's pretty freaky. My friend was like, "So you're impulsive, blah blah...and you follow your impulses, blah blah, impulse this, ect." I just started bawling. I have a problem, and it's about time I did something about fixing it, wouldn't you say? Maybe he didn't handle the situation properly, but it's about time I quit pretending I don't have problems and started owning up to them. It's not normal to just *find out* where people live. It's not just natural curiousity in my case.
And how did I expect him to react? "Oh, I'm glad you invaded my personal life. Why don't you stop by sometime and meet the wife and kids?" But, I've never seen him so angry. (And I guess he wasn't lying when he said his natural defense was to lie about things. I almost called him on that, but I thought it wasn't the time.) He's very upest with me and I don't blame him. I suppose I would be too. Actually, I am. Not for telling him but for the whole thing. If I had more common sense then I wouldn't get myself into stupid situations like this in the first place. And these things do happen quite frequently, you know.
I learned a valuable lesson today. Therapists are human too. They react with emotions sometimes, especially if they don't like what you have to say.
Now, does anyone know how I can quit shaking (and crying?)
Posted by gardenergirl on January 22, 2004, at 23:34:34
In reply to Thanks all :), posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
Now, imagine that I made you a tape for relaxation, but I accidentally recorded it at high speed, causing me to sound like Minnie Mouse and you to hyperventilate from trying to follow the instructions.
Doesn't really relax you through the content, but it is good for a laugh, which can help. It really happened, and I almost peed my pants listening to it with my colleagues. Had to turn it off before I totally ruined my rep.
:)
I hope this doesn't feel like I'm minimizing how you are feeling. Just wanted to make you smile.
Just breathe. You'll get through it. I have confidence in you.
gg
Posted by All Done on January 23, 2004, at 0:09:15
In reply to Thanks all :), posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
> You're all very sweet and I truly appreciate it. I was talking with a friend today and it made me realize how very much something like that could freak someone out though. I mean, come on that would be pretty scary. "Oh, by the way, I know where you live and what your wife looks like and your dog." That's pretty freaky. My friend was like, "So you're impulsive, blah blah...and you follow your impulses, blah blah, impulse this, ect." I just started bawling. I have a problem, and it's about time I did something about fixing it, wouldn't you say? Maybe he didn't handle the situation properly, but it's about time I quit pretending I don't have problems and started owning up to them. It's not normal to just *find out* where people live. It's not just natural curiousity in my case.
> And how did I expect him to react? "Oh, I'm glad you invaded my personal life. Why don't you stop by sometime and meet the wife and kids?" But, I've never seen him so angry. (And I guess he wasn't lying when he said his natural defense was to lie about things. I almost called him on that, but I thought it wasn't the time.) He's very upest with me and I don't blame him. I suppose I would be too. Actually, I am. Not for telling him but for the whole thing. If I had more common sense then I wouldn't get myself into stupid situations like this in the first place. And these things do happen quite frequently, you know.
> I learned a valuable lesson today. Therapists are human too. They react with emotions sometimes, especially if they don't like what you have to say.
> Now, does anyone know how I can quit shaking (and crying?)Karen,
The crying thing is a bit of a breakthrough for you, no? Maybe you can look at it as something good that came of this. (Kind of a strange "good" thing, though, I know.)
I'm with everyone else, though. *Please* don't blame yourself for anything. You didn't do anything wrong (or anything different than what most of us have done). The only difference might be that you were the brave one that told your therapist about it all. I still have hope that Bubba will get his act together on this one because you need him to.
Until your next appointment, though, maybe we should work on the sleep over. (I find distraction to be a fantastic coping mechanism, at times.) If you want, we can start by telling our stories of googling our therapists over popcorn and a video tape of the 1983 Miss America pageant. I can start with my Beefcake googling, but I must warn you, it's not very interesting. (But have you ever literally tried googling "Bubba"? If you want a good laugh, do it. I mean, seriously, Bubba the Love Sponge! What's up with that?)
Take care,
All Done
Posted by Dinah on January 23, 2004, at 3:25:06
In reply to Thanks all :), posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
Gardenergirl's right. Concentrate on your breathing.
You know, we *are* nice, but we're not *being nice* in this situation. The fact is that a lot of us have done what you've done. Some of us have admitted to what we did and had either a calm or an angry reception. Some of us haven't admitted it. But none of us would want the reaction you got. So we're being empathetic, because we've all been/could have been/or might oneday be in the place you're at.
And I still don't think it's awful. You didn't do anything that wasn't in the public records. What did you do that you might not have done for a prospective employer or employee? Or any number of people with whom you have a purely professional relationship? Never mind someone with whom you have that weird therapeutic relationship. If he didn't want that information available, he shouldn't have it on the internet.
All of us should realize that we could be googled by just about anyone we know. I've googled myself. Nothing. :) But if I google my screen name and a few relevant topics, I cringe.
Plus... You know, when he got married that photo was probably in the paper. Well, maybe not the one with the dog. Along with all the personal information that accompanies those announcements. It's hardly a state secret.
It's perfectly normal to be upset that he's mad at you. I get frantic when my therapist is mad at me. It feels like all is wrong with the world. And if he's pleased with me, it feels as if everything will be ok. But don't generalize that to feeling like there's something wrong with you. Not over googling someone.
(((((Karen)))))
When is your next appointment?
Posted by Penny on January 23, 2004, at 8:26:26
In reply to Thanks all :), posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
I completely agree with Dinah.
YES - therapists are human. Amazingly enough, some of us on here will be therapists some day - what does that say? And Bubba has a right to feel however he's gonna feel about whatever the situation is. BUT - he doesn't have a right to not put your needs before his in therapy. HE DOESN'T HAVE THAT RIGHT. THAT IS HIS JOB. If he can't do his job properly, he needs to get help.
I'm not saying you should have googled your therapist. I don't know that it's a thing that is 'right' or 'wrong', per se, it just is. I've done it! I'm not dxed BPD or anything like that - I just google everybody!!! My boss, my coworkers, guys I have dated, friends, and so on. Especially therapists and docs. How did I find out that my former pdoc had been accused once of using hyponosis to cause a patient to have false memories of sexual abuse? Because he certainly wouldn't have told me that. (He wasn't found guilty, by the way.) I also found out that my current pdoc had a juvenile patient who committed suicide shortly after being admitted to a residential facility, and my pdoc was named in the malpractice suit, even tho' he was no longer treating the kid at the time (of course, my pdoc has told me that psychiatrists get sued quite often, so he's pretty honest about that...). I have discovered quite a few things googling folks, including finding a high school friend I hadn't seen in 9 years or so who was living in the city next to mine. Googling, IMO, is okay.
And he wasn't hiding from you the fact that he was married. Okay, so he would have preferred that you didn't find out where he lived, or that you didn't see a pic of his wife and the dog. Fine. My former T wasn't happy that I found a pic of her hubby, or that I found her address (and knew the tax value of her home...). I DID drive by there. I didn't tell her, but I did drive by, though only once. I had to see. And it had nothing to do with my diagnosis. What it had to do with was quite a bit of pain I was experiencing - and in retrospect, while part of me wishes that I had respected her privacy and just not looked, part of me thinks that it was a good, but painful, learning experience. And, ya' know what? My former T told me that I wasn't the first patient she had who had found out where she lived - she had a patient who had confessed that to her before the internet became a factor. So he went to a lot more trouble than I did. And, as my T said, yes, she was upset (she was also naive about the capabilities of the internet, IMO), but she said she would get over it. And she told me that it was good to learn that someone could get upset with me without expressing rage (the way my parents did) and without abandoning me. And, I do think she got over it. Me? I'm still working on it, but she certainly didn't abandon me. We ended on a positive note, and that's been almost a year ago, and even after all of that happened, she still did her job as a therapist.
I just think, Karen, that Bubba is perhaps too inexperienced to deal effectively with his feelings over this in a way that is conducive to YOUR therapy. This is HIS issue, not yours. His reaction is a reflection of HIM, not of YOU. I know you might not want to accept that, but, trust me, it is the case. At 29, not too long out of grad school, I just don't see how he could not realize what might be out there about him and his wife.
My former T didn't share personal info with me unless necessary. So, by trying to find out more, I felt like I was doing something wrong b/c I knew it was info she wouldn't share with me voluntarily. Bubba had already shared a lot of things with you, so I just don't see what he has to be upset about. But, as I said, you're right - he's human. He has a right to feel however he's gonna feel. But he needs to put those feelings aside and use this as a learning experience for you - to get at the real reasons behind your interest in his personal life. This is a real opportunity for both of you in your therapy. He needs to get over it and use it to YOUR advantage.
And you can tell him I said so.
P
Posted by Poet on January 23, 2004, at 9:59:23
In reply to Thanks all :), posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
Karen,
I agree with everyone else, you did nothing wrong. The phone book has been fair game for information since the first one was printed. Like your therapist never looked up his teachers when he was a kid? My ex boyfriend was listed in the phone book with his middle name and last name with no address for this reason.
I know Bubba's young, but that's no excuse for his behavior. The surgeon who removed my mother's cancerous kidney was 34. She calls him Dr. Cutie, and I met him, he is. He's also professional and skilled in his chosen profession. I think Bubba Bubba really needs some guidance in how to be a professional therapist.
My therapist told me crying is release of emotion, and shaking is the release of trauma. I wish I could make it all go away for you. I'm sending you white light of healing.
Please take care of yourself, keep posting, I'll help anyway I can.
Poet
Posted by Karen_kay on January 23, 2004, at 13:16:02
In reply to Re: Thanks all :) » Karen_kay, posted by Poet on January 23, 2004, at 9:59:23
I'm feeling better today, if you haven't already noticed :) So, I have a jerk for a therapist (and that was a joke). I understand he was upset. But, I'm sure he'll be OK about everything. I'm not entirely sure he'll trust me completely or that I'll ever trust him completely. I mean, he really flew off the handle and that made me upset. But, I do know that he has a history of not handling situations appropriately, like the time he put me in the hospital. We talked about that and he agreed he didn't handle that one well. But, at least I'm the first client he's ever put in the hospital...OMG!!!! What am I going?? I think this is called Gaslighting??? Where the therapist convinces the client that "she's" crazy... I swear, I'm going to make a film about this whole blasted so-called journey. "When you therapist has more issues than you do and you don't know it" Yes, I think that title might work fine. So, I see him bright and early Wednesday morning and I'm telling him that he needs to get things together. That he's always accusing me of "playing games" (Hello! That's why I'm there! For instance, I wanted to come right out and say, "You tell me too much about your personal life and so I worry about you", but I couldn't because I like hearing about his personal life. So, I said "I don't like your wife and he said, "Well, why would you be a better wife to me?" And he thought this would be a good excuse to build my self esteem but I wouldn't play the stupid game. So I kept saying, "Well, don't you think it's strange that I worry so much about you." as my way of trying to get him to THINK aobut why I would worry so much about him and HE JUST DIDN'T GET IT!!! OK, so I do play games. I jsut want people to read my mind! IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK, HONESTLY!!!!
And besides, why is it my responsibilty to tell him the things he does wrong anyway? Doesn't he have a supervisor for that? The last session he was talking way too much and I was getting annoyed! Talking about his daughter forever, but it would be rude to interupt and say, "HELLO! Let's get back to me now!" AGHHHHHHHHH!
OK, I'm going in on Wedsnesday and saying, "Listen, I want you to continue answering my questions. But, I don't want to hear aobut your personal life anymore. I don't want to hear about your daughter or your sleep schedule, or your fights with your wife, or any other crap that life throws your way. You're here to listen to me talk about the crap that life throws my way. Now, if you don't understand this, perhaps I should start seeing someone else? And if you are concerned about me looking in the phonebook at your phone number, maybe you could have an unlisted phone number? I have one. I assure you I'm not going to drive past your house or call you up. Thanks for making me feel so grat for being honest with you. Just another example of how understanding you are. We've worked through this before, and I assume we can work through this again. But, maybe you will one day learn to think before you react, DICK!"
Is that pleasant enough? I'm a sweetheart, aren't I? But, he did put me in the hospital...We've worked it out before and I'm sure we'll work it out again. but I'm glad I'm keeping track of all the mistakes he's made :) I'm even planning on who will be playing him in the movie...I'm telling you, I'm going to make the damn thing! (PLEASE... Let's just hope for a happy ending. Hmmm...maybe Karen and Bubba meet up 6 years later and get married?? (and that too was a joke!! NEVER!!!))
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 23, 2004, at 16:10:56
In reply to Hey, I love you all!, posted by Karen_kay on January 23, 2004, at 13:16:02
Whenever you want me to come kick his a**, just let me know!
Posted by antigua on January 23, 2004, at 19:16:32
In reply to Re: Thanks all :) » Karen_kay, posted by Poet on January 23, 2004, at 9:59:23
Really? shaking is a release of trauma? I've never heard that.
antigua
Posted by Elle2021 on January 23, 2004, at 23:25:52
In reply to I called Bubba :(, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:33:44
>And I don't think he's that handsome either. (Is that black and white thinking or just being realistic now? Stupid dx...Gets me every time.)
No, I think it's the idealizing/devaluing thing... Now you're devaluing.
Elle
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 7:33:09
In reply to Bubba (my therapist) freaked out!!, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 9:07:57
Karen, I haven't read the whole thread yet, forgive me, but when I was reading your post, I really reacted to this:
"I found out that he does sit around the house in his underpants and frequently used to clean naked until he had kids."
Did he volunteer this info to you? Why?
To me it feels like way too much info, and it raises my "boundary crossing radar" signals a bit.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 7:40:35
In reply to Re: Bubba (my therapist) freaked out!! » Karen_kay, posted by Rigby on January 22, 2004, at 9:57:43
>Also, I am wondering about the cleaning naked disclosure. I think it's fine for you to push boundaries as much and as often as you feel like--it's *your* therapy. But why does Bubba give in so much? Maybe you're his favorite but most or least favorite I wonder how this helps you? Dunno. Just seemed off.
Rigby, the way you put this concern was more articulate than how I phrased it--but I'm glad I wasn't the only one to get that "uh-oh" feeling about his talking about the naked cleaning and sitting around in his underwear.
Come to think of it, he just found out that she knows his address. She told him she hasn't driven by, but obviously the thought crossed Karen's mind. (I had the same urge toward my therapist a number of years back, and I did drive by twice). By saying that he sits around the house in his underwear, isn't that kind of a major TEASE to say to a patient who might be fighting the urge to drive by his house?
I agree--he shouldn't be giving in and giving so much personal info--especially provocative things like underwear sitting and naked cleaning. It feels really inappropriate.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:07:26
In reply to Re: More quesions answered by Bubba » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 22, 2004, at 14:07:37
My therapist and I have run into each other twice at the drugstore. One time he was by himself, once with his teenage daughter. Both times were fine--he and I both said hello like when you bump into someone you know but not well enough that you're going to stop and gab with. Each time, he checked with me in the next session how I felt seeing him there, seeing his daughter, etc.
My therapist is extremely centered about this stuff. He doesn't disclose a lot about himself but does disclose some things when appropriate. I think I know more about his family situation only because a few years ago, his wife became very ill with cancer and then died, so he did feel he had to disclose some things to patients around that time.
He also has disclosed things when it helps to validate my perceptions of how he might have reacted to something I said. Sometimes I pick up on the slightest things--verbal and non-verbal--like many of us babblers do--and sometimes I think it is totally a reaction to me and what I said, etc. When I've talked about that with him, he has reacted thoughtfully, and sometimes disclosed what he realized he had brought to the situation that might have contributed to his phrasing something a certain way or having a subtle nonverbal reaction, etc. This is how he takes ownership of at least part of the interaction between us, so that I don't think it is all about me and my inner horribleness. I think he is really centered and honest and good at knowing what is his contribution to the therapy relationship. It is very "sane-making" in the sense of being the complete antithesis to the "crazy-making" interactions I had growing up. This has been an important aspect of the therapy.
Also, it is very safe and reassuring to have a therapist who has such a good sense of his boundaries. The occasional disclosure still doesn't cross the line, and he is good at monitoring with me how the boundary feels and if it's therpeutic. Where his boundary lines are is different than with my previous therapist (I moved cities), who also had good boundaries but was more "traditional" in not answering questions, etc., but his boundaries are still as strong and healthy.
But he has told me that he sees me as having good boundaries too, so I don't know if he would keep his boundary line in the same place for someone whom he was afraid would violate his privacy, etc. Even though I did drive by his house twice early in the therapy, I confessed as much immediately after I did it, and felt horribly ashamed. He did not freak out at all. He calmly processed with me what I'd been feeling and how it felt to drive by and helped me feel less ashamed about having been so curious, etc.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:24:56
In reply to I called Bubba :(, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:33:44
ARGH!
This frustrates me because as Rigby said--you're the patient, you can test the boundaries. BUt he is the therapist and he should know and be prepared to handle such testing.
YOu aren't the only one who might have crossed a boudnary! He disclosed some really inappropriate things about himself! As you said--
>"I have half a mind to tell him that if he didn't tell me so much about his stupid personal life I wouldn't be so interested."
As the therapist, HE is the one who is supposed to monitor the boundaries. If he is treating people with what he considers to be Borderline Personality Disorder, my goodness, don't you think he would know that these kinds of longings and testings would come up from time to time? Freaking out is not a therapeutic response. Telling your patient that you sit around in your underwear and used to clean naked is HIGHLY inappropriate, no matter how much questioning the patient does. And telling you that this is YOUR "BPD" issue is really not helpful. Using a diagnosis as a weapon or shield is not helpful. Sure, he may have felt anxious or nervous finding out you've been curious and dealing with the testing of boundaries, etc. Having normal human feelings is allowed in therapists, But the key thing is that therapists are supposed to be able to process their own feelings and not have them interfere with doing or saying what would be therapeutic for the patient, arent' they? Just because he gets a twinge of fear about you or anyone else knowing personal stuff about him doesn't mean he should be wielding a diagnosis as a weapon to blame you and therefore protect himself!!! A diagnosis is only as good as its ability to guide good treatment, not as a label to wonk someone with because you're mad at them for testing your personal boundaries.
Accusing you of boundary crossing for looking him up on the internet while he can't see all of his boundary violations by telling you inappropriate stuff about himself is classic "crazy making". Give me a break. If the info is published out there for the whole world to see, it stands to reason that a curious patient might look it up. But it isn't on the internet that he cleans naked or sits around the house in his underwear. So why the heck did he tell you that? And why can't he see that he is just feeding your curiosity more?
ARGHHH!!
This really bothers me because it doesn't seem he is skilled enough to deal with this in a way that will help you and not hurt you.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:40:31
In reply to Re: I called Bubba :( » Karen_kay, posted by Joslynn on January 22, 2004, at 16:54:11
>"It sounds like he is learning by experience where he wants his boundaries, which is something I wish for your sake he would have thought about in grad school. It seems like different therps have different styles, and now he is changing in mid-stream.
"As someone who grew up with the changing rules that are so common in alcoholic families, nothing is more annoying to me than relationships that arbitrarily change midstream! But that's me."
Joslynn--it's not just you! It's me, too! You're right about the changing rules and boundaries. And what's worse is that it all gets blamed on her.
Many of us grew up in families where the rules changed or wobbled or weren't clear until you after you broke them and found out the hard way with pain and suffering. Alcoholic or not. Crazy making families.
And that is one of the reasons why many of us might have difficulty with boundaries one way or another. Why we are in therapy.
I think therapists are supposed to do their best to not repeat this kind of crazy making boundary and rule changing. And to be able to deal with boundary testing, etc. from patients.
And if the rules have to change in a relationship, then the person needs to be totally upfront about it and let the other person know that the rules will be changing and where the boundary will be from now on, and of course to say why--and the why can't be a blaming thing like it's all the other person's fault! Rather than having the rules change all the time without ever acknowledging that they change, which, to me, is the most crazy-making aspect of it all.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:44:48
In reply to Re: 'Kay, I wanna have a lil' talk with Bubba... » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 22, 2004, at 19:07:26
>"What really makes me angry with him, however, is his 'testing' you by saying he didn't believe you didn't drive past his house to see your reaction. Uh...he's playing games now?"
Penny--I'm glad you picked up on this point. It irks me that a therapist would be manipulative with a patient like that.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:48:35
In reply to Re: I called Bubba :(, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 22, 2004, at 21:42:06
>I don't understand how how he can ask you how big your boobs are, tell you basically that he masturbates to your and other patients images>
WHAT?????
This I hadn't seen before. Did he really say these things??????
OMG! Now I'm not just angry and concerned--I'm ALARMED!!!!!!
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