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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by HannahW on September 17, 2003, at 12:32:10
In reply to I am really so very confused. (long), posted by kara lynne on September 16, 2003, at 22:19:23
What concerns me is how this therapist seems to be focused more on himself than on you. The therapist is supposed to put all of his own needs aside and focus exclusively on yours. That his job, and that's what you pay him for. A few examples:
>...that I was making it sound as if he were some sort of voyeur or something
This isn't about him. If you felt pried into, he should have respected that and apologized, not gotten defensive.
Was his insistence that you talk about sex appropriate to the conversation at the time? Or did he just seem curious? To tell you the truth, there are a few clues in what you wrote (such as his defending the deplorable bahavior of your last therapist) that make me wonder if he's attracted to you and was acting on that.
>He said it was perfectly appropriate for a therapist with a very attractive client to say 'I'm attracted to you, now what can we do to put that aside so that we can get to the real work'
Beg your pardon? That would be completely inappropriate! A therapist is not supposed to disclose his feelings about a patient, and the statement, "now what can WE do to put that aside" is also totally off base. WE don't have to do anything. It's HIS issue that he needs to work out outside of your therapy session.
>He said I was coming up with reasons to 'blemish' him
Blemish him? Again, he's being totally self-centered in needing you to keep his image sparkling in the eyes of both of you.
>He said almost dramatically--"I'll tell you one thing--I expected this to happen"
He's putting himself above you in a childish, "I told you so!" way. He's making himself feel superior again. He got defensive in response to your feelings (which never should have happened) and he had to regain his authority and superiority. Naturally, in putting himself up, that automatically puts you down.
This guy scares me. He's putting his own needs and feelings ahead of yours, and in my opinion, you're not safe with him. If it were me, I'd run, not walk, out of his office and find a new therapist in a hurry. The sooner you can talk about this experience, the less time it will have to fester in you.
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 12:38:15
In reply to Re: I am really so very confused. (long) » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 17, 2003, at 9:35:23
-. He said that he thought I should leave-
Ahh. The magic sentence. As soon as you said it I thought, 'That's what I need'. You know another stupid thing playing in the back of my mind is that he gave me a job lead--at a place he patrons. So I would a) maybe get the job (which I HOPE I do by the way) and b) have to see him there. But I don't have to stay in therapy with him because of a job lead, do I?
I don't think I have to leave therapy feeling bad about myself each time and having to wonder if it's my fault. That doesn't seem right. Again, it is so hard for exactly the reasons you describe--you're in there to question yourself to begin with. And although I don't want to be coddled I do think I can feel more validated (???).
I think there are other things to work on in therapy besides whatever this dynamic is between me and him--but then I do of course start to pick away at myself with the fear that maybe he is right.
I really don't get what he said about the other therapist. Really truly. I would love to tell the story to a 'panel of experts', male and female, and get their opinions. I have a box of loveletters from that psychologist to this day sitting in my closet. He asked yesterday if I was flattered. When I first mentioned it I think I had said of course I was, but the fact that he focuses there kind of --makes me want to--- hit him. He got all agitated when I told him, trying to 'get' me to admit that I'd felt flattered. That's no big mystery to me--of *course* I felt flattered. What was so pathetic was that I had so little sense of self worth and empowerment that I had to get it from a relationship that would be so damaging to me--and I stayed in it for *years*. So I pick daddy again, or whatever. No sh*t, Sherlock. Do we focus on that in this situation, or that daddy didn't do his job well here either?
I said yesterday that this guy said, when I first came into therapy, "I will be the first male in your life not to sexualize the relationship. I'm going to love you until you love yourself. etc. etc. etc." He was my hero.
This was my therapist's reply: "He didn't sexualize the relationship."
HOW CAN HE SAY THAT????? HOW IS TELLING ME HIS SEXUAL DREAMS ABOUT ME NOT SEXUALIZING THE RELATIONSHIP? Could he really be that obtuse? Or is he just doing a semantic power trip? I know we never had sex. That's all he'll say in return. Here is the final irony--and I won't blame anyone for never speaking to me again once I divulge this:
Before this shrink I had gone to another. I saw him, I don't know, six times or so. I thought I was in love with him. Well guess what? We stopped the therapeutic relationship and were together for a year. (This may explain why I haven't tried to be in therapy with a man for about 13 years.) Although he clearly breached the law I feel less conflicted about that relationship than I do with this other one, who I saw directly after. I went to him and told him about the first relationship and the depression I couldn't get out of. I met shrink 2 at a conference that I went to with shrink 1 for Transpersonal Psychology, where you meet all these different practitioners and get a feel for what kind of work they do.
Ok, it gets sicker and sicker, I know. But that's the end of it. I still don't see how he could say that that guy didn't sexualize the relationship.
By the way I did go into therapy with a woman after that.
Oh, and one final note: This guy said yesterday that he's also a sex therapist.
Oy vey.
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 12:43:33
In reply to Re: I am really so very confused. (long), posted by HannahW on September 17, 2003, at 12:32:10
He does get defensive! That's exactly what I was thinking in the back of my mind!
Oh thank you for your objective, honest reply Hannah. I know you'll think I'm a nutcase after you read my last post, but I really needed to hear what you said.
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 12:47:37
In reply to Re: enmaly, posted by emmaley on September 17, 2003, at 8:52:12
Not intrusive at all. On the contrary, I really appreciate what you have to say.
Funny, when I read your post I saw, " There is really something so scared about it (healing)"---but you had said 'sacred'. Hmmm.
How long have you been with your therapist?
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 13:06:40
In reply to Re: I am really so very confused. (long), posted by HannahW on September 17, 2003, at 12:32:10
I just wanted to add: I *had* brought up the topic of sex that day--as well as a myriad of other things. I alluded to something I had talked about initially that had to do with my ex's lack of sexual interest or desire. I said I wasn't feeling well physically--that I was tired and achy, and I mentioned that I felt my sexual energy had been thwarted. In fact I said that I had significantly lost interest in sex with my worsening depression. It was one sentence out of 43 minutes and he just zoned in like a vulture. He did agree with me yesterday that that is where the focus on the session went, even thought I had brought up so many things--like, oh, wanting to die.
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 13:30:25
In reply to Re: I am really so very confused. (long), posted by HannahW on September 17, 2003, at 12:32:10
About the possibility of his being attracted to me: A few weeks back I was discussing my insecurity around getting a job. He said I should be alright going out there because "You're not exactly Quasimoto, you know." If that was a compliment he is strikingly like my ex.
Could that really be extrapololated?
Am I being completely stupid?
Posted by starfish on September 17, 2003, at 14:23:24
In reply to and lastly, posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 13:30:25
> About the possibility of his being attracted to me: A few weeks back I was discussing my insecurity around getting a job. He said I should be alright going out there because "You're not exactly Quasimoto, you know." If that was a compliment he is strikingly like my ex.
>
> Could that really be extrapololated?
>
> Am I being completely stupid?Hi Kara,
I've been reading your posts. I personally don't think he is acting appropriately. What kind of therapist is he?
starfish
Posted by galkeepinon on September 17, 2003, at 16:24:04
In reply to Re: I am really so very confused. (long), posted by HannahW on September 17, 2003, at 12:32:10
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 17:11:55
In reply to Re: and lastly, posted by starfish on September 17, 2003, at 14:23:24
I have talked to many good people about this. I have gotten very good feedback here. I will indeed go back next week, but I am prepared with what I will say (non reactively).
It will be my last session.
Wish me luck! Next Tues. at 11am
Posted by fallsfall on September 17, 2003, at 18:25:37
In reply to Less confused now., posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 17:11:55
Good for you. Stick to your guns. You've done a really good job of figuring this out. I'm proud of you.
I think a woman therapist might be a better bet for you. I just wrote up advice on finding a new therapist (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20030905/msgs/260173.html). It is NOT your fault. Your previous (and current?) therapists have behaved unethically. You did nothing wrong. Even if you had thrown yourself at them (which I don't think you did), it is their job to keep the boundaries. You need to be willing to KNOW that this guy has done the wrong thing. That knowledge will sustain you when you feel like you have screwed up (and you haven't).
Tuesday at 11. Gee, that was the time I used to see my old therapist. That was good for a hearty laugh!
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 20:41:58
In reply to Re: Less confused now. » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 17, 2003, at 18:25:37
That *is* funny! Only now I had to cancel the appt. due to a possible job lead. So I still haven't rescheduled...
Posted by ridesredhorses on September 17, 2003, at 22:52:22
In reply to Re: Less confused now. fallsfall, posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 20:41:58
I have been reading so fast to see what you decide to do, KaraLynne. As I read your first post I just got a lump in my stomach. I only know that my own therapist has always made me feel safe. He will say, "is is ok if I make some observations that will involve sexual issues?" or maybe "do you feel like talking about those issues today?" And I have alway been able answer honestly, and if the answer is 'no' we just go on. I used to think psychologists were like gods, all-knowing people who have worked it all out. I now know that they are just specialists...like plumbers...some of them do good work, and some just don't. Some of them are honest and hard working, some are lazy..and some of them will take your silver. You seem to have good guts and a great deal of strength. Remember, if you decide not to go back to see this guy one more time, it's ok. You don't need to 'win' or show him your strength. He has shown you that he can be insulting in a very passive agressive way. I'm not sure he deserves to see you again.
I hope you find a situation in which you feel safe. Best wishes.
Posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 2:06:11
In reply to Re: Less confused now. fallsfall, posted by ridesredhorses on September 17, 2003, at 22:52:22
Thank you! It's interesting, because I fully intended to go one more time, but I really had something come up right at that time, and we are having a hard time rescheduling. I am considering giving up the 'one more time' approach.
Thank you for your feedback. Sometimes I feel like I'm walking around with blinders on, missing things that are right in front of me. But I guess where we're wounded we do that.
I still don't fully understand this. My pdoc (not that he's the final authority) highly recommended him and said no-one has been disappointed that he's sent them to. So of course it's easy to think I'm the problem. Maybe his approach works for some. It's not that I don't want to be told the truth--I prefer truth. That's what made me try to investigate this further--was I really coming up on some huge resistance that I needed to look at? Some sabatoging aspect of my behavior that I am missing?
But I think the bottom line turns out to be that even if that's true, I can still work it out with a different kind of therapist. At least I hope so. I must admit I'm kind of confused again over what is a breach of boundary between a therapist and a patient. I don't understand how this guy could say what he did about my prior relationship-- but at the same time say he's not condoning it. He said *maybe* it was bad conduct. MAYBE! It took me years to even acknowledge that it might have been an abuse of power because I believed everything that therapist told me at the time; all of the reasons he gave me for our relationship being 'special'. He even said not to talk about it with anyone because no one would understand. And again, he was 50, I was 24. 24, depressed, and paying him--albeit minimally. And with a past of being betrayed by the men in my family. So you tell me (not you, but You): was that 'maybe' poor conduct?
Oooh. I'm all riled again, and I have to get to sleep!
Posted by emmaley on September 18, 2003, at 3:15:37
In reply to Re: enmaly, posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 12:47:37
Wow, Kara, I am so happy that you worked out what is best for you! Sounds very mature to me. :)
I have been with my therapist for the past year and half; the first six months I went once a week and the past year twice a week. It's been a tough ride at times, but ultimately the relationship is what is making me feel safe and able to build trust. He has been very kind, which is the one quality that touches me the most. He also is very sensitive, able to grasp what I say and tune into my emotions (of course not all the time, but who is perfect?) Overall, I will say that it is his willingness and ability to hold my growth and needs above his that makes it a space where I feel comfortable to work in.
I understand what you said about wanting to find out if there were things that you missed and want to look at. I tend to feel the same way, too. I am learning how to make it okay to allow myself a safe space to tackle unresolved issues. Sometimes we get there all the same, as long as we are committed. I applaud your sense of committment to your personal growth. :)
And I think you are right. There is something both sacred and scared about healing....isn't it?
:) :) :)
Posted by ridesredhorses on September 18, 2003, at 5:28:38
In reply to ridesred, posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 2:06:11
I understand your confusion. Over the years I have been to some real 'doozies,' who wanted me to react a certain way...Don't get upset again but a BIG CLUE is anytime...ANYTIME...someone says their actions should be kept secret. The way he acted was HIS secret to keep, not yours. When we have been abused, this is a little confusing. Self-blame is our first reaction; we want so to be loved. And the other guy even suggesting you were at fault, in any way, is only a further indication that he, himslf, is an abuser or a potential abuser. Yes, that's right. You keep going. You are doing just fine. Really. Hope your sleep was good and that your day is peaceful.
Posted by HannahW on September 18, 2003, at 11:25:19
In reply to Hannah, posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 12:43:33
I really believe you're making the right choice. Maybe if it turns out that you don't go see him again you can send him a letter that says all you wanted to say.
Why on earth would your 2nd affair with a therapist make me or anyone else think badly of you? I think you feel shame about that like a child who has been sexually abused feels shamed--like they somehow caused it, should have stopped it, or whatever. In a way, you WERE sexually abused. I think nothing but warm and positive thoughts about you. And I'm sure everyone else here would concur.
Good luck at your job interview!
Posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 12:41:03
In reply to Re: Hannah, posted by HannahW on September 18, 2003, at 11:25:19
I guess that's part of the confusion. This guy is saying the 2nd relationship could be construed as therapy, and not an affair. It wasn't really an affair because as I said, we never had sex. (I did have a romantic relationship with the first therapist; oddly enough I feel far less conflicted about that one. I thought we were truly in love--for awhile, and it was a mutual decision to end the relationship.) But the second guy I saw for over two years and the whole time it was clouded by all this boundary crossing--disguised with his declarations of honorable intent. Meanwhile he was telling me about the problems between he and his wife, telling me we'd be together some day and yes, *talking* about his sexual fantasies of me. *And* expressing jealousy when I talked about my then boyfriend. How in the world could that have been therapeutic for me?
See, I was such a sick puppy; why *would* I stay?! I remember telling one wonderful friend at the time. She was so gentle, but she just kept quietly saying, 'Kara, this is wrong.' But I believed what the therapist told me, and he seemed to appreciate me more than anyone in the world ever had--that was strong stuff for me. But it was an atmosphere like the one I grew up in, where at the very least emotional boundaries were trampled over until I couldn't recognize that it was happening. That's what's so scary about this---this current guy is saying things I could easily buy. And again, while I do not get any satisfaction out of being a victim, I do think it is life threatening if I don't recognize it as a violation and abuse of power--their's, not mine. Otherwise, because it is like the originally damaging environment I was from, I can be almost lulled back into a hypnotic denial and repitition of the pattern.
I hope that wasn't too obtuse. I can't tell you how much all of your support and feedback has helped me through this. I really wish we could all meet!
Posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 13:05:03
In reply to Re: enmaly, posted by emmaley on September 18, 2003, at 3:15:37
I was reading some of your thread above again, and you did an awesome job of expressing yourself. You have a keen awareness of the process between you and your therapist, and it is one I can completely relate to. I really admire your ability to go in there and be that honest with him; to be willing to deal with the vulnerability and challenge the shame. How are you feeling now in terms of your attraction toward him? Has it been more manageable since you talked about it?
I realized after writing about some of this that part of what kept me hooked was my fear of abandonment. How powerful a hook that is for me. What happened between me and the 2nd therapist was this: I had been feeling like we weren't having enough time in the sessions. He offered an 'open ended' session when his wife was out of town--he worked out of his house. He was the president of the Bio Energetic society and said we should do some-ahem- 'body work' to break through my blocks. Uh huh. So I went to his house and we ended up on the floor in each other's arms, with him clearly expressing sexual feelings. While I felt flattered and wanted the connection, I was not attracted to him--except for that one day, temporarily, due to the intensity of the moment, transference, what have you. We stopped before anything happened.
The next time I went for a session he was riddled with guilt, which he also laid on me. He wanted to end the therapy--right after it had gotten so intense, and I needed him more than ever. So of course I didn't want to. I was the one that said let's keep going. But was that my fault? My fear of abandonment had me absolutely petrified; after getting so close to this man--who had made such compelling declarations of his desire to help me through suicidal depression--I would be completely anchor-less.
So that, Mr. Current Therapist, was my part.
Posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 13:13:44
In reply to Re: ridesred, posted by ridesredhorses on September 18, 2003, at 5:28:38
ridesred, you're cute. I'm not upset. You're right, it's a classic cue. I even said to this current guy, 'This is classic Lifetime After School Special' fodder. The whole 'what did you do to perpetuate it' line. He might as well have asked me if I was dressing seductively---are we back in the dark ages here? That's what makes it so hard to understand--this guy is supposed to be really good, I can't imagine he's that ignorant. So I keep thinking I must be missing something--I must!
It is along the same lines of 'don't tell anyone, they won't understand...our relationship is special', which is what the other therapist used to say. But this guy is confusing the issues, or something. He insists that he's not condoning the other guy's behavior, and trying to make it seem like he's helping me with a self destructive pattern. But then why would he focus so strongly on trying to find out if I enjoyed the attention? That seems so 101 to me, you know? I think I just got to the bottom of it myself anyway. It was connected entirely to survival and abandonment--it goes a little deeper than wanting to feel pretty.
Thank you for your support.
Posted by noa on September 18, 2003, at 14:53:26
In reply to I am really so very confused. (long), posted by kara lynne on September 16, 2003, at 22:19:23
My impressions? (straight shooting here from my personal gut reactions):
1. He is more than a little arrogant ("I expected this to happen")!
2. His judgment about expressing his opinion about the ethics of the previous therapist is highly questionable and confronting you with the question about your part in the relationship with the previous therapist is just plain hostile and I can't see what therapeutic purpose it could possibly have served!
3. He sounds, um, well...sleazy.
4. He is not the right therapist for you. Even if he isn't sleazy or unethical or anything, I can't see how you are going to feel safe with him given his approach.
5. He sounds like one of those hostile therapists that make you really uncomfortable and then make you feel like you are a total loser if you want to quit working with them.
6. My gut says, "RUN, Don't walk!" away and find a better therapist for you.
But, these are my personal gut reactions. Like I said to Eggy, it's hard to judge from afar.
Posted by noa on September 18, 2003, at 15:06:11
In reply to Re: Hannah, posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 12:41:03
it doesn't matter if it was consumated or if you define it as an affair or not....the boundaries were wierd. If he wrote you love letters, that is a boundary violation. Maybe not enough to meet criminal criteria, but I would hope his professional peers would see it as ethically out of bounds. Maybe he stopped himself from the slippery slope before he had gone all the way down, but he did cause harm, did he not?
I also cringe when I hear about a therapist starting a therapy relationship by predicting he will love you. It sounds like bulls**t to me, first of all, and it comes across as unprofessional, and it gives me that lump in the stomach feeling about shaky boundaries.
Posted by noa on September 18, 2003, at 15:16:24
In reply to Re: enmaly, posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 13:05:03
OMG!!!!
My previous posts were in response to the earlier posts in this thread. I've just read the post about the 'open-ended' session with the body-work while his wife was out of town.
No question about it---That was definitely abusive on his part. Depending on where you are and how long it has been since that happened, you might be able to file an ethics complaint against him (there are statute of limitations you have to find out about). Of course, that process could be healing for you OR it could be really painful, so you'd have to think about whether it would be the right thing for you or not.
I am so sorry you had to go through that!
If the current therapist is giving you feelings of not being safe, you do not owe him anything in terms of having to go back for another session. You might need to pay for the session if you are cancelling suddenly, depending on his rules, but you don't have to go back. Only go back if you feel you need the closure or something.
How about seeing a female therapist?
Posted by galkeepinon on September 18, 2003, at 17:07:49
In reply to Re: ya, but... » kara lynne, posted by noa on September 18, 2003, at 15:06:11
Posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 18:39:15
In reply to Re: enmaly » kara lynne, posted by noa on September 18, 2003, at 15:16:24
HI noa! Nice to see you!
Arrogant. Yes, I believe he is. I was in therapy with a woman after this all happened years ago. I stayed in for awhile, but it didn't seem to take me very far.
I was laboring under the illusion that I could work some of this stuff out with a male therapist--heal something, you know? I was kind of looking forward to the prospect of that. I do see a woman for counseling and have for many years--not a degreed psychologist, however.
Posted by starfish on September 23, 2003, at 12:53:50
In reply to I Couldn't Have Said It Better noa!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (nm) » noa, posted by galkeepinon on September 18, 2003, at 17:07:49
I believe women therapists are better in that there is less of a chance for sexual wrong-doing to happen. I have seen a woman psychoanalyst for 2 years now. She is wonderful. I see her 3-4 x a week. She has handled all of my issues (transference) with the greatest of skill. After hearing the horror stories out there, I feel very lucky to have found such a wonderful analyst! I purposedly looked for a woman so that there would be no chance of anything inappropriate going on.
starfish
This is the end of the thread.
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