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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by HannahW on September 10, 2003, at 22:26:43
I'm at a loss for what I should do. I don't want to make any stupid mistakes, and I also don't want to waste my time.
Right from the start, I should confess that I have been obsessed with my pdoc/therapist, although I feel that's tapered off tremendously. Up until a few weeks ago, I had seen her for meds only. Since my parents are deaf, I'm exceptionally sensitive to non-verbal statements of people. During our meds-only time, I kept picking up on things that made me think that a) she's got some problems of her own (I don't know what) and b) she's a lot like me. (Although it's true that I could be projecting, she has pretty much confirmed that she's got her own stuff going on.)
Anyhooo, I was really intrigued by her unspoken statements and wanted to know her better. (Remember, this is all pre-therapy.) We had a very fun and easy relationship, not too deep, and I suggested that we end our professional relationship and go out for coffee instead. Immediately, she said she couldn't do that, but when I pointed out that we hadn't begun a therapeutic relationship, she said she'd talk to her colleagues about it. A couple of days later, she called me and said she couldn't "change gears" and have a personal relationship. Of course I say I understand, no big deal. Secretly, I'm hurt. She didn't say it was unethical, or that her colleagues thought she was crazy for considering it, but instead it felt like more of a personal rejection.
I've seen her for therapy twice now. I'm able to tell her the things I think she's looking for, but I can't really open up to her emotionally. In other words, I can verbalize my emotions to her, but I can't actually FEEL them in her presence. I don't have that level of trust in her. How can I trust someone who has already rejected me?
When I brought up the issue of trust, and whether I'd be able to trust her. (All of my friends and neighbors are doctors, so I think of her as my equal, and not some unattainable authority figure.) If she wasn't my equal, I said I'd probably be able to speak freely, she would say all the right doctor-things, and I wouldn't care what she really thought of me. As my peer, though, I do care what she thinks, and I said that requires a different level of trust, which I don't currently have. She seemed really confused by what "trust" meant and thought I was referring to confidentiality or something. She came closer to the truth when she referred to me needing to know I wouldn't be judged, but I couldn't really explain it better. I know everyone here knows what I'm talking about though. How do I express it? Does the fact that I need to express it send up red flags? She did say that the fact that I care about what she thinks is good (as opposed to a more sterile doctor-patient relationship) because it will help me deal with my stuff where I also care what other people think.
Since she's rejected me before, it will be very difficult to open up and risk her rejection again. I might be able to get over that, but then again, I might not.
She really does seem to have some problems going on in her life, and I'm afraid to contribute to her problems. I don't know what's going on with her, but it's like she has two faces. There's the fun, easy-to-talk-to person that I enjoy so much, and then there's the purely clinical, nothing-but-business person that doesn't come anywhere near touching my heart.
Her treatment plan for me suggested a session every 2-4 weeks. When I expressed concern that that wasn't often enough (and referenced all of you who talk about your therapists always being there for them, and seeing your therapists up to twice a week), she agreed to see me more often. But psychiatry is underserved in my town, and her schedule is absolutely crazy. When I expressed my feelings of guilt for taking up so much time, she just said that she wasn't worried about it. What I really wanted her to say she WANTED to see me that often. As it is, the best I can hope for is once per week, if I schedule a month in advance.
On the positive side, she is often insightful and makes me think of connections between things that I've never thought of before. I love the idea of having the same person monitor my meds and do therapy. When I'm in session with her, I do not feel obsessed with her, and as I said before, she's been so clear about there being zero chance of any mutually meaningful interactions between us, that the obsession is waning.
With all of that said, should I stick this out and see how it progresses? Does it look hopeful to you, or hopeless? At the same time, I do and I don't want a new therapist, so I don't know what to do. I don't know how much of my desire for a new therapist is based on me wanting to run from my feelings of rejection, and how much of it is just being smart that we might not be a good match. I can see myself ending up with a love/hate relationship with her in the future. I don't know if that's good or bad.
Hannah
Posted by Dinah on September 11, 2003, at 1:50:09
In reply to Should I get a new therapist?, posted by HannahW on September 10, 2003, at 22:26:43
I think in your situation, I would be as specific as possible about the actions that felt like a rejection to me, and the thoughts that accompanied them.
It wasn't really a rejection, you know. It was just her carefully following the rules of her profession. Although she may not have been doing therapy with you at that moment, it's clear that she *is* a therapist and has to live by that code.
The fact that you feel so strongly about it might mean there is some larger associations that you draw from her actions. It might be fruitful to explore them.
And you can take her response and go from there to decide what to do.
But that's just me. I'm a big believer in therapeutic honesty. I don't think I've ever had a thought about therapy that I haven't discussed with my therapist (now that we tackled the money issue). However, I've seen in my experience on the boards that I am fortunate indeed in my therapist. And that experiments with honesty don't always go as well as they do with my therapist.
Posted by fallsfall on September 11, 2003, at 6:24:26
In reply to Should I get a new therapist?, posted by HannahW on September 10, 2003, at 22:26:43
You have an interesting delemna. The thought that stands out for me is: "How can I trust someone who has already rejected me?". Dinah is right to suggest that all of this needs to be talked out. You need to talk to her about how what she said felt like rejection to you (I would have felt it as rejection, too, but I'm not sure that everyone would). You need to talk about how you can create an effective theraputic alliance if you do feel rejected. I think that you also have to talk about the fact that you are facinated personally by her. These are impossible things to talk about. But if you can successfully talk about them and understand each other's point of view, then I think you will have a successful therapy with her.
The other thing that concerned me by your post is that there were a couple of times where it seemed that you were trying to protect her:
>>She really does seem to have some problems going on in her life, and I'm afraid to contribute to her problems.
>>When I expressed my feelings of guilt for taking up so much time,
Since she has made clear that this is a professional relationship only, you need to let her take care of her end of things. I had a concern when my therapist went on vacation. He gave me his cell phone number so I could call. But I didn't want to call him on vacation! I told him that I had been a workaholic and had worked during my vacations and that it wasn't a good thing. I didn't want to be encouraging him to do the same. He said he had done it this way for years and that he preferred getting a call to coming back to a disaster. I brought up my concern, he made a decision for himself, and I had to honor that. (No, I didn't call on his vacation)
This will be hard to sort out, but I think you will need to sort it out together.
Good Luck, and let us know how it goes!
Posted by HannahW on September 11, 2003, at 10:40:31
In reply to Re: Should I get a new therapist? » HannahW, posted by fallsfall on September 11, 2003, at 6:24:26
Dinah and Fallsfall--
You're both right that I should talk to her about my feelings of rejection, and I think I can do that. I can let the outcome of that discussion help determine whether I should find someone else. If I could control her response (while keeping within those darn boundaries), she would say, "...but I do enjoy you and care about you." I don't think she will, though. She's just not that warm and fuzzy.
Is my need for that reassurance an emotional flaw that needs to be worked through, or is it perfectly normal and a flaw of hers for not giving it?
Our therapy sessions have felt so sterile. I really don't enjoy them, and leave feeling somewhat empty. In our medical appointments, we used to laugh and joke and visit (although always at my instigation). Now that I'm protecting myself from her, I don't bother to put any effort into being funny and enjoyable.
I want to visit with her in a mutual, two-way relationship and talk about semi-superficial things, but I don't want to bare my soul to her in a one-sided relationship. I'm perfectly willing to bare my soul to another therapist, I'm just not sure about her. It's not too hard for me to respond to her questions and put labels on my feelings, etc., but I think the most effective therapy requires me to actually experience and share the emotions. That's the hard part for me.
Do good therapists always connect emotionally with their clients? Or is it possible for therapy to be effective in a more detached manner? Everyone on this board's therapists sound so warm, and I wish that for myself.
In the end, although I'm considering finding a new therapist because I'm not sure I'll get what I need from her (if indeed I truly need what I think I need), I'm terribly afraid that if I talk to her about not getting what I need she'll agree with me and suggest I find someone else. That would feel like another rejection. <heavy sigh>
Posted by judy1 on September 11, 2003, at 11:37:56
In reply to Re: Should I get a new therapist?, posted by HannahW on September 11, 2003, at 10:40:31
"I'm perfectly willing to bare my soul to another therapist, I'm just not sure about her."
I think you just answered your own question here as to whether or not to get another therapist.
> Do good therapists always connect emotionally with their clients? Or is it possible for therapy to be effective in a more detached manner?In my own experience with multiple therapists and pdocs, my most productive relationships have been with therps who I connected with. Since I'm a very emotional person I needed that in my therapist also. I didn't do well with detached people.
like Fallsfall, I was concerned about your need to 'take care of' your therapist. It should be the other way around, and I honestly feel you'll do better with someone else. The longer you wait, the more difficult it will be.
best of luck, judy
Posted by HannahW on September 11, 2003, at 11:44:50
In reply to Re: Should I get a new therapist? » HannahW, posted by judy1 on September 11, 2003, at 11:37:56
I know that my need to take of my therapist is cause for concern. In the research I've done on transference, I've found that there are many different "patterns." Mine seems to be transference with a codependency pattern, which makes me want to take care of her. Since that's pretty typical for me, it seems likely that I will have a similar issue with a new therapist.
If I take care of someone, won't they like me better? (I know the real answer to that--NO!) That's the very ineffective relational strategy I'm stuck in.
Posted by fallsfall on September 11, 2003, at 16:23:15
In reply to Re: Should I get a new therapist?, posted by HannahW on September 11, 2003, at 10:40:31
> Dinah and Fallsfall--
>
> You're both right that I should talk to her about my feelings of rejection, and I think I can do that. I can let the outcome of that discussion help determine whether I should find someone else. If I could control her response (while keeping within those darn boundaries), she would say, "...but I do enjoy you and care about you." I don't think she will, though. She's just not that warm and fuzzy.You know that she won't say that, and that she really can't say that. What would she do later if you asked the same question and she didn't feel the same way?
>
> Is my need for that reassurance an emotional flaw that needs to be worked through, or is it perfectly normal and a flaw of hers for not giving it?I think your need is normal, and that she is correct to not give in. Really stinks, doesn't it? I think it is part of the blank (or partially blank) slate.
>
> Our therapy sessions have felt so sterile. I really don't enjoy them, and leave feeling somewhat empty. In our medical appointments, we used to laugh and joke and visit (although always at my instigation). Now that I'm protecting myself from her, I don't bother to put any effort into being funny and enjoyable.So it sounds like you are the one who was setting the tone. You are still setting the tone, just not the one you want. Are you protecting yourself against more than rejection? Why does protecting yourself mean that you don't bother to have fun?
>
> I want to visit with her in a mutual, two-way relationship and talk about semi-superficial things, but I don't want to bare my soul to her in a one-sided relationship. I'm perfectly willing to bare my soul to another therapist, I'm just not sure about her. It's not too hard for me to respond to her questions and put labels on my feelings, etc., but I think the most effective therapy requires me to actually experience and share the emotions. That's the hard part for me.
>What you want is not conducive with effective therapy. I'm sorry.
> Do good therapists always connect emotionally with their clients? Or is it possible for therapy to be effective in a more detached manner? Everyone on this board's therapists sound so warm, and I wish that for myself.
>
My current therapist is much more blank slate than my former therapist was. I really have no idea what he is thinking most of the time. We have done some good work together, despite that. I have no idea if he likes me. His "face" is also keeping me from getting too dependent (which has been a real problem for me). So I think that there can be advantages of less warmth. Though my former therapist made me feel very cozy (and I miss that).> In the end, although I'm considering finding a new therapist because I'm not sure I'll get what I need from her (if indeed I truly need what I think I need), I'm terribly afraid that if I talk to her about not getting what I need she'll agree with me and suggest I find someone else. That would feel like another rejection. <heavy sigh>
You need to recognize that she is a professional. One of her responsibilities is to refer patient who she can't help. If she says that she thinks that you would do better with someone else, that doesn't mean that she doesn't want to work with you. It means that she thinks that your health will improve faster with someone else. If she DIDN'T refer you when she thought she couldn't help you that would be malpractice.
>I know that my need to take of my therapist is cause for concern. In the research I've done on transference, I've found that there are many different "patterns." Mine seems to be transference with a codependency pattern, which makes me want to take care of her. Since that's pretty typical for me, it seems likely that I will have a similar issue with a new therapist.
So this codependency will be there with anyone. OK, that's something you will work on. Sounds like that part doesn't factor into the decision on whether to change therapists.
If I take care of someone, won't they like me better? (I know the real answer to that--NO!) That's the very ineffective relational strategy I'm stuck in.
In particular, a therapist won't like you better because they will see it as a problem to be solved. I understand why the rest of the world would like you better if you take care of them... Maybe we have something in common!
You have excellent insight into what is going on. It sounds like you are strong enough to be honest with your therapist. Honesty in both directions will give you the best outcome.
Good Luck
Posted by HannahW on September 11, 2003, at 17:41:43
In reply to Re: Should I get a new therapist?, posted by fallsfall on September 11, 2003, at 16:23:15
Fallsfall--
--As I digested your comments and was writing my responses to them, I found that my perspective changed by the end. I thought about editing out the first part of my responses to you, but decided to leave them in so you could watch the progression of my thought process (if you find that kind of thing interesting)--
> You know that she won't say that, and that she really can't say that. What would she do later if you asked the same question and she didn't feel the same way?
Ouch. Why not? Other people on this board seem to get reassurance from their therapists. Someone even said that she told her therapist that she loved her, and her therapist said it back. (And then followed up about love in the proper context of therapeutic boundaries).
> So it sounds like you are the one who was setting the tone. You are still setting the tone, just not the one you want. Are you protecting yourself against more than rejection? Why does protecting yourself mean that you don't bother to have fun?
I think rejection is the *root* of all I'm protecting myself against. I'm protecting myself from getting too attached, and from her gaining too much power over me. (Were you asking a simple question, or implying something in particular? Can you think of another possibility I'm overlooking?)
I just made a connection today between this sterility and an issue that we're talking about in therapy. As a child, I learned to "close the door" emotionally to people so they couldn't hurt me, and so I maintained control. However, I was still an obedient and dutiful child. I still tend to do that with people and am outwardly emotionless with most people, but still compliant with their expectations of me. I just realized that I have closed the door to my therapist, but am still being the dutiful patient by *talking* about my feelings, but not being willing to experience any with her.
Talking about this with her and getting through it will be a major breakthrough. Albeit, an excruciating one. Ugh, I have to tell her she hurt me, when I don't want her know she has the power to do that. Yuck.
> > I want to visit with her in a mutual, two-way relationship and talk about semi-superficial things, but I don't want to bare my soul to her in a one-sided relationship.
> >
> What you want is not conducive with effective therapy. I'm sorry.
>
I know. :( I was saying I want a personal relationship, not a professional one. And I know I can't have that, either.
> My current therapist is much more blank slate than my former therapist was. I really have no idea what he is thinking most of the time. We have done some good work together, despite that. I have no idea if he likes me. His "face" is also keeping me from getting too dependent (which has been a real problem for me). So I think that there can be advantages of less warmth. Though my former therapist made me feel very cozy (and I miss that).That's a helpful perspective. It's interesting to think that all along she might have been letting me set the tone of our meetings, but I have interpreted her flatness as evidence that she's unhappy, or she just doesn't want to do therapy with me. When all along, she might have been just reflecting me.
You know, between today's insight about the closed door and your "tough love reality check," I am actually feeling hopeful that my therapy with her will end up meeting the needs that lie *underneath* the needs that I only *thought* I wanted her to meet. If that's what she's planned all along, then she's really a much better therapist than I've been giving her credit for.
I don't think I could have reached this point without you, fallsfall. I'm really grateful for your wisdom and experience. Thank you!
Hannah
Posted by Adia on September 11, 2003, at 18:39:41
In reply to Should I get a new therapist?, posted by HannahW on September 10, 2003, at 22:26:43
Dear Hannah,
Hi..I've been following your thread and reading what Fallsfall and Dinah and the others have shared...
I feel a bit afraid to reply 'cause I am afraid of not saying the right thing...
but I thought I'd share my feelings with you? and just send you my support when you see her and bring this up ...
I hope you can discuss all this with her and tell her..how you felt...your feelings of rejection, how you're finding it hard right now to open up emotionally...everything you have shared here..I understand what the others have shared...
I also understand that need to be reassured...I need my therapist's reassurance all the time...
I may be expecting too much but I do need her to tell me I am worth something to her, and she won't abandon me and wants to work with me. I need her to tell me that I am not a burden to her and that she does want to see me...I need her to make me feel or tell me she cares about me.
I have asked her for reassurance..I have told her in writing how much I need this from her..and she has done things to reassure me that I am safe with her.
I think it is very important to feel accepted and supported and safe with your therapist...
I may be feeling this because of my own issues and stuff, but I understand what you mean about needing to develop trust...I think it takes some time to build trust and a solid relationship...
and all the time that relationship needs to be worked through..I may be wrong in all of this...about love...
I do know I can't expect my therapist to love me...the way I may want her to love me..She has told me how I sometimes wish she could adopt me and love me as a mother would love a child, how I need that protection I never had...
I have told her I love you...and she explained that she can love me from the person she is, as a human being, as a therapist, that she does love me...
After I shared in writing what had happened to me with my father and all, she told me I care very much about you...and that was so important to me.I know this may be confusing..but I just wanted to share that I think it is possible to feel cared for, and to feel supported and develop a therapeutic bond based on trust and honesty and care...
I understand the risks of letting someone close emotionally, I too feel afraid of knowing I've given my therapist so much power to hurt me, but for me, I do need to feel that closeness or bond.
I guess we all have different needs...
I really hope you can talk things over with her, and tell her how you're feeling, and the things you feel you need...
Maybe she's not the right therapist for you..?
I guess you will have a clearer idea once you can discuss all this with her and see what she explains and how she feels about things...
I hope you can talk about it with her...I wish you the very very best...
Sorry if I didn't say the right thing, you know I'm feeling sooooo anxious cause tomorrow I'm seeing my therapist ...
But I wanted to reach out all the same and share with you and just say I heared you and I wish you the best with her when you see her...
if things don't work that well, and you don't feel in your heart that she'll be able to help you then I do hope you can find someone supportive and caring to work with you..
All my support,
Adia.
Posted by Adia on September 11, 2003, at 18:47:04
In reply to Re: Should I get a new therapist? » HannahW, posted by Adia on September 11, 2003, at 18:39:41
Hannah,
just wanted to say..that when I shared about needs, I am not saying that I think my therapist should meet all those needs, and many times I have told her I hate it when I feel like a needy, little girl..I try not to ask her for reassurance and she sometimes doesn't like it, and says that I should find my answer in her actions and our work together....She doesn't meet my little girl needs, but she tries to help the adult me understand what can be done now or how things truly are now..She wants me to trust in our bond.
I think it is okay to tell her your needs...even though they can't always be met...but I find it relieving to have all that out in the open..
I hope you can talk to her next time you see her.
Sending you all my support,
Adia.
> Dear Hannah,
> Hi..I've been following your thread and reading what Fallsfall and Dinah and the others have shared...
> I feel a bit afraid to reply 'cause I am afraid of not saying the right thing...
> but I thought I'd share my feelings with you? and just send you my support when you see her and bring this up ...
> I hope you can discuss all this with her and tell her..how you felt...your feelings of rejection, how you're finding it hard right now to open up emotionally...everything you have shared here..
>
> I understand what the others have shared...
> I also understand that need to be reassured...I need my therapist's reassurance all the time...
> I may be expecting too much but I do need her to tell me I am worth something to her, and she won't abandon me and wants to work with me. I need her to tell me that I am not a burden to her and that she does want to see me...I need her to make me feel or tell me she cares about me.
> I have asked her for reassurance..I have told her in writing how much I need this from her..and she has done things to reassure me that I am safe with her.
> I think it is very important to feel accepted and supported and safe with your therapist...
> I may be feeling this because of my own issues and stuff, but I understand what you mean about needing to develop trust...I think it takes some time to build trust and a solid relationship...
> and all the time that relationship needs to be worked through..I may be wrong in all of this...
>
> about love...
> I do know I can't expect my therapist to love me...the way I may want her to love me..She has told me how I sometimes wish she could adopt me and love me as a mother would love a child, how I need that protection I never had...
> I have told her I love you...and she explained that she can love me from the person she is, as a human being, as a therapist, that she does love me...
> After I shared in writing what had happened to me with my father and all, she told me I care very much about you...and that was so important to me.
>
> I know this may be confusing..but I just wanted to share that I think it is possible to feel cared for, and to feel supported and develop a therapeutic bond based on trust and honesty and care...
>
> I understand the risks of letting someone close emotionally, I too feel afraid of knowing I've given my therapist so much power to hurt me, but for me, I do need to feel that closeness or bond.
>
> I guess we all have different needs...
> I really hope you can talk things over with her, and tell her how you're feeling, and the things you feel you need...
> Maybe she's not the right therapist for you..?
> I guess you will have a clearer idea once you can discuss all this with her and see what she explains and how she feels about things...
> I hope you can talk about it with her...
>
> I wish you the very very best...
> Sorry if I didn't say the right thing, you know I'm feeling sooooo anxious cause tomorrow I'm seeing my therapist ...
> But I wanted to reach out all the same and share with you and just say I heared you and I wish you the best with her when you see her...
> if things don't work that well, and you don't feel in your heart that she'll be able to help you then I do hope you can find someone supportive and caring to work with you..
> All my support,
> Adia.
>
>
Posted by HannahW on September 11, 2003, at 18:51:19
In reply to Re: Should I get a new therapist? » HannahW, posted by Adia on September 11, 2003, at 18:39:41
You're sweet, Adia. Thanks for your post. It surprises me that you have a hard time sharing your feelings with your therapist, because your writing is absolutely packed with emotional power that I can feel all the way through cyberspace!
Don't worry at all about saying the wrong thing! I welcome whatever you have to share. Even if you disagree with me! :)
I'm glad you understand my need for love and acceptance. It's funny how such a basic human need (that everyone has) can still be so difficult to talk about.
I've been thinking about your appointment tomorrow! What time is it at? What are you going to do to make sure you're in a mental condition that will let you be as vulnerable as possible? Remember--figure out a way to relax yourself, and then be as open with her as you would want her to be with you if the tables were turned. You're as safe with her as she would be with you (and probably even safer!)
I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes.
Hannah
Posted by Adia on September 11, 2003, at 20:39:49
In reply to Re: Should I get a new therapist? » Adia, posted by HannahW on September 11, 2003, at 18:51:19
Hannah,
Thank you again for your support and for sharing and saying that whatever I have to share will be okay.. :-) you know it's from my heart and I want the best for you and for everyone...I wish you the best in your next appointment with your therapist.
Thank you for thinking of me.. My appointment is at 12..In writing I can let go and just write from my heart..I write to my therapist and that's how I was able to tell her things I have never been able to say. When I want to talk or open up when she's with me, I am like a child who is just learning to talk, I don't know why it happens, I can talk if I am crying, but the rest of the time I can't let the words out, I have to learn to talk, she says I can do it. I have to find the way tomorrow somehow..I'll let you know how it all goes.. :o) I am counting the hours ...
Thank you for your support through this and for sharing here...I wish you lots of understanding with your therapist next time you see her..
Thank you so much .....
Your sharing touched my heart.
Adia.
Posted by fallsfall on September 11, 2003, at 22:12:16
In reply to Re: Should I get a new therapist? » fallsfall, posted by HannahW on September 11, 2003, at 17:41:43
I wish you the best. You will figure this out.
P.S. I did like watching your thought process...
Posted by Eggy on September 18, 2003, at 8:50:43
In reply to Re: Should I get a new therapist? » HannahW, posted by fallsfall on September 11, 2003, at 22:12:16
I recenly sought out a new therapist. I went to her with every intention to be honest with her and that is what I am doing. I am not worried about or interested in her family. As I was my previous therapist. I don't care what her impression of me is. I am sure she has seen worse. I don't care if she likes or loves me. She is there to to help me and I have learned that she can do that without putting her personal feelings into that. My old therapist and I pretty much called it quits because I believe we knew too much about each other. We never got to the "point". I worried to much about his responses and his opinions. I hopefully will never make that mistake again. I don't think friendship is a necessity in a therapist client relationship. Trust is. If you trust someone and feel safe with them then this is all that it should take to make you open up and discuss everything you need too.
Good Luck.
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