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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by goldfish on October 5, 2002, at 13:44:24
Hi - I wanted to post to see if others had had a similar experience to mine. I'm a mid-20s female, went to see a young (probably about 30) male therapist for short-term work on anxiety. The initial therapy was quite successful, not really because of anything he did or said, but because his presence really motivated me to work hard (write journals, do outside reading.) So, after a few months I felt like I had a handle on my anxiety problem, and my therapist suggested we continue to work on the "deeper" issues. Long story short, I had already developed a crush on him at this point and was just too freaked out to continue in therapy because I couldn't stand the thought of opening up so far with someone who would never reciprocate. It seemed...unnatural. So I terminated the therapy with him and am considering starting with another therapist (female this time!). But I'm still bothered by the whole relationship that unfolded between me and the male therapist. First, I find the concept of "transference" totally insulting. I didn't have a crush on him because I was seeing him as my father or whatever, but because he was a young, attractive man who would listen to all these deeply personal things I never talked about with anyone. I feel almost as the very nature of therapy inherently sets up these situations where you are going to get emotionally attached to your therapist, and it just seems wrong. Wrong because it is so inevitably one-sided, and a little twisted because it makes you so...abject...in front of another person who really has no personal interest in you at all, at the end of the day. Plus you're paying them for this privilege.
I should add that my therapist behaved perfectly honorably throughout, never ever did anything improper to suggest he was interested in me in any way other than a patient. I told him about my feelings, obliquely but unmistakably, at the very end.
So, anyone else out there have any thoughts/experiences along these lines?
thanks.
Posted by Ginjoint on October 5, 2002, at 19:43:20
In reply to crush on therapist, posted by goldfish on October 5, 2002, at 13:44:24
Ouch, Goldfish....that had to be a painful experience for you. I don't have a crush on my pdoc, but I can sure empathize with your feelings about therapy in general. The one-sidedness of it is a big obstacle for me -- I have a VERY hard time trusting someone (as in my therapist) when I'm expected to spill everything, and, well, they aren't. I really fight the vulnerability involved with telling a "stranger" extremely personal things. I am still working to overcome this (I know the long-term benefits outweigh this weirdness), and I know it frustrates my pdoc as well. To her credit, she does open up a bit to me, as best she can, anyway. But you're right, it is a strange relationship...definitely frought with peril. :)
I have to say, I think it was very strong -- and smart -- of you to realize that you couldn't work on the "deeper issues" with this particular therapist. Anxious or not, you should give yourself credit for looking out for yourself. I wish I had some other words of comfort, but just know that someone else understands how freaky the very nature of therapy can be.
Ginjoint
From different postings
Posted by madison88 on October 6, 2002, at 0:43:27
In reply to Re: crush on therapist, posted by Ginjoint on October 5, 2002, at 19:43:20
I had an unusually strong attachment to my first therapist. I it wasn't sexual (it was a she), but it was just an obssession in general. i never let on, i just pretended to not care about anything to do with her personally. I was devastated when i had to move to go to college and start over with a new therapist. there are advantages to working with somebody you are not so attached to. i found it really hard to talk about negatives about myself with my first therapist, b/c i cared so much about what she thought of me. you are suppose to be able to talk about absolutely anything, b/c the relationship is not a friendship per se. the therapist is suppose to be able to take anything you say, something that won't happen with most friendships/romantic relationships. of course, i couldn't do this with my first therapist b/c i made it more than a theraputic relationship.
it took a long time to stop feeling like i terribly missed her. i should have talked about it w/ my new therapist, but i didn't. i would recommend doing that. i don't especially love my new therapist, but i find i have a lot more freedom to talk b/c i don't care so much about messing up the relationship. i will never work w/ a guy, i know i would really mess that up. i would want him to like me so much more than i want a female therapist to like me. it is hard to explain why. i hope you find a new female therapist that you can talk with openly. this is definately an issue that quite a lot of people in therapy deal with, i think, so i wouldn't think yourself odd or anything b/c of what happened.
Posted by Phil on October 6, 2002, at 10:24:21
In reply to Re: crush on therapist, posted by madison88 on October 6, 2002, at 0:43:27
I haven't had that problem but if I go see my new therapist and she's a 30 year old Audrey Hepburn look alike, I've got a decision to make and it won't be the right one. I'm not crazy you know, just depressed.
Posted by Ginjoint on October 6, 2002, at 11:13:02
In reply to Re: crush on therapist..boundries, schmoundries, posted by Phil on October 6, 2002, at 10:24:21
HA! I'm with you, Phil...if I were in Goldfish's situation, I doubt I would have the discipline to walk away. Fifty minutes a week staring at someone who gives me a buzz is better than...well, pretty much anything else I'm currently doing. Sad, really.
Ginjoint
Posted by Phil on October 6, 2002, at 13:32:34
In reply to Re: crush on therapist..boundries, schmoundries » Phil, posted by Ginjoint on October 6, 2002, at 11:13:02
Are you from across the pond? Your sense of humor is hilarious. Unfortunately, I'd do the same thing as you for the same reason.
Posted by Ginjoint on October 6, 2002, at 18:32:03
In reply to Re: crush on therapist..boundries, schmoundries » Ginjoint, posted by Phil on October 6, 2002, at 13:32:34
I'm from Chicago. And thank you. :)
Posted by goldfish on October 6, 2002, at 21:43:34
In reply to Re: crush on therapist..boundries, schmoundries » Phil, posted by Ginjoint on October 6, 2002, at 18:32:03
Ack, I couldn't torture myself, even for an Audrey Hepburn lookalike! Anyway, in my case it was less a buzz than a sting. I've never been able to enjoy a crush just for the sake of it. Maybe that would be healthier...
It still seems weird that you have to navigate between a therapist you like excessively and a therapist you don't really care about. Just a mystery of therapy, I guess. I'll definitely discuss it with my new (female) therapist.
Thanks for understanding my angst, everyone!
Posted by Seedwoman on October 8, 2002, at 20:43:05
In reply to Re: crush on therapist..boundries, schmoundries, posted by goldfish on October 6, 2002, at 21:43:34
I can relate. But I didn't terminate. I was in too deep. The attachment to one's therapist is so complicated--not as "simple" as transference is supposed to be (i.e., the therapist is simply a blank slate on which you can project feelings about other significant people in your life)--but if you do choose to deal with "core" issues--abandonment and such--the therapist does in a sense "stand in" for others. On the other hand, he/she's an individual and the combination of a therapist who's of appropriate gender for you to fall in love with, young, attractive, genuinely empathic, and completely present and authentic with you, hangs on your every word...well, jeez, what's *not* to fall in love with? But it does go beyond that, if the relationship continues, into a deeper appreciation for the other person's uniqueness, and a more relaxed familiarity, an almost-friendship but with therapeutic boundaries intact. That's the key, I think. If the therapist is completely committed to your development and keeps your needs (not necessarily wants) at the top of the priority list, the attachment can become an important, even a key, element in the therapy. It worked for me...over a period of years I learned finally to trust him despite being terrified always that he would leave me. Unlike others in my life, he just kept being there for me, sitting beside me session after session and helping me along. Every time I panicked, he didn't leave, and he never did let me down. I still see him, at widely spaced intervals, but the intense attachment has mellowed out into something healthier. So while I can understand not being able to work through personal issues with the distraction of a crush, in some cases it may be just the thing to get the process moving, especially when you are numb and feelings are frozen. you don't want to start thawing stuff out until there's somebody there to keep you from drowning!
so I guess everyone needs to trust his/her judgement on whether to continue therapy when a crush develops; for some, it turns out to be just the thing that's needed.
Posted by goldfish on October 8, 2002, at 21:11:24
In reply to Re: crush on therapist..boundries, schmoundries, posted by Seedwoman on October 8, 2002, at 20:43:05
I tried to think of things the way you did, Seedwoman--maybe if I just wait the crush out, something important will emerge; maybe the crush itself is telling me something; maybe my only chance for sanity is with the object of my misplace desire! But staying with him just seemed too fraught, too dangerous an experiment.
One interesting thing about my experience: my initial success in therapy (dealing with anxiety) was very much related to the attraction I felt for him, the approval I wanted to get from him for working hard. Maybe that's not the purest motivation, but it sure served the purpose! Once I was ready to deal with other issues, it was really hard for me to understand why I needed this wild card of being in love with my therapist to intrude...
Anyway, it's good to know that you were able to successfully "work through" your attraction. I don't know if it's possible to answer this question, but do you think you would have done better with a therapist you weren't attracted to?
As I write this it occurs to me what an American, puritan almost, problem this is. Maybe the Europoeans would just say, "so you are attracted to zee therapist, zee world will not end, it is, how you say, healty to feel luff in zis way."
Whereas I ran screaming in the other direction, mortified about feeling attracted to someone I wasn't "supposed" to feel attracted to!
take care and good luck
-gf
Posted by Seedwoman on November 20, 2002, at 20:16:40
In reply to Re: crush on therapist..boundries, schmoundries, posted by goldfish on October 8, 2002, at 21:11:24
goldfeesh,
I know it's been awhile, but I just read your most recent post...btw, I love the accent. the imaginary Euro-therapist is probably right; it *ees* healthy, or it was for me, to feel love in that way and have it be accepted but not acted upon, not exploited in any way. I also needed to learn that no matter how intense my attachment or how much love (I don't know what else to call it) my therapist gave me, it was not the cure for my fears. the fact that he did not "abandon" me, but kept being there and never wavered in his support allowed me to learn to trust (selectively); but I also needed to learn to trust myself. Ultimately that grew out of self-examination, which I find I can now do without either self-pity or shame. That's the best gift of therapy, because nobody can take that away from you, even your therapist, should he or she turn out to be unworthy of your trust.
It's interesting that you ask about what the outcome might have been had I not been in love with my therapist...I have to say that I think I would have been in some way no matter what; in fact, it really irritated me that I became so attached to a previous therapist who really didn't have a clue about what to do with me and whom I didn't find in the least attractive, which oddly mirrored some of my other relationships in "real life". It is also interesting that I've always tried to get female therapists and have always ended up with males. I finally gave up, so when I was asked for a preference said it didn't matter; and that was when I found the right person, who happened to be male, and attractive, entirely focused on me when I'm in his presence... really, what's *not* to fall in love with?
It's scary, though, to confront strong feelings for someone who doesn't feel the same about you. However, I really needed to explore those feelings in order to learn that it's no good to expect someone else to rescue me with his love. I rescued myself, but feeling loved is one of the things that got me there. I didn't reject the feelings I had for him, and was able to see them evolve from a sort of immature, obsessive attachment to a genuine affection and respect that is mostly about who he is and what he's done for me, not about my longings and fears.
So anyway. Thanks for posting. I wish you well.
Seedwoman
Posted by namesake on December 4, 2002, at 11:42:22
In reply to Re: crush on therapist..boundries, schmoundries » Phil, posted by Ginjoint on October 6, 2002, at 18:32:03
Hello. I am new to this website... I have had a similar situation, though the therapist was not mine. He worked briefly with a family member. I am female,he,male. I only met with him 2 times alone (concerning treatment of family member).After, 2nd meeting, I "fell" for him, it has now been 5 months. I can not quit thinking of him! I was honest over the phone about this with him, he was nice, but never did anything unprofessional. I can't believe that I have been feeling this strongly for 5 months, and it has
not lessened at all.
Though I am no longer in therapy, I did mention this to my therapist, several times, and he seemed to avoid getting into the "meat" of the incident. I know that he had been involved, regretably, with his therapist, (many,many years ago) and it seemed like something he would rather not discuss. Other than to say "don't become involved, you will regret it!", that was all that he would say.
I am still in a quandry over this. Part of me wonders if I should set up a meeting with the crush, and confront this in person, rather than on telephone,as in past(that was within the beginning of the crush). Maybe ? that would knock some rational thinking into my head...Also, I have very strong conflicting feelings: I love to think about him, and... I also am angry, and don't want to think about him anymore!
What to do, what to do.
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2002, at 12:18:02
Originally posted by namesake
> One more addition to my first post...this therapist and I are both married, with small children.
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2002, at 12:28:11
In reply to crush on therapist » namesake, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2002, at 12:18:02
Hi namesake,
This is just my opinion of course, but you've already told him how you feel and he responded professionally. I think most people have had these feelings about someone or another at one time. It's wonderful, it's painful, and it's one of those things that you keep in a special box in your heart, with old loveletters and such. Enjoy the fantasies, but recognize them for what they are. Your life is with your family.
Sorry for the painful part though.
Dinah
Posted by namesake on December 4, 2002, at 15:29:36
In reply to Re: crush on therapist - namesake, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2002, at 12:28:11
> Hi namesake,
>
> This is just my opinion of course, but you've already told him how you feel and he responded professionally. I think most people have had these feelings about someone or another at one time. It's wonderful, it's painful, and it's one of those things that you keep in a special box in your heart, with old loveletters and such. Enjoy the fantasies, but recognize them for what they are. Your life is with your family.
>
> Sorry for the painful part though.
>
> Dinah
Dinah, the thing that won't go away is, that I keep wondering if he would tell me the same thing in person(as opposed to the phone, as before). I think that maybe it would really "shut the door" in my mind. Also, I am not necessarily looking for an affair, but would really like to see him one more time, no matter what he says. As for attraction,we did flirt in the beginning...
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on December 4, 2002, at 16:27:19
In reply to Re: crush on therapist - namesake, posted by namesake on December 4, 2002, at 15:29:36
>I am not necessarily looking for an affair, but would really like to see him one more time, no matter what he says. As for attraction,we did flirt in the beginning...
-----------------You know, I've never been one to knee-jerk dismiss taboo relationships. You never know when you might stumble across the exact right person, and I've always reserved the right to do whatever I felt was best, regardless. Given your situation, though, there are some pretty substantial sacrifices to be made in order to even try at starting a relationship with this guy. Even if you like him, what are the odds he feels the same way? Even if you're willing to leave your family for him, what are the odds he'll want to do the same? Even if he does, what are the odds that the two of you will be compatible? Even if you are, what will make this relationship more enduring than the one you're already in? How well do you know him, based on your two encounters?
Dinah was right in saying that we all have these impulses from time to time. People are wired that way, romanticizing the speciously pleasing aspects of everyday encounters. I'm very much in love with my girlfriend, so all I have to do is think about the heartbreak I'd cause her, and I immediately want to go hug her.
I guess it depends on your motivations. I've been in relationships that I wanted out of. If you're truly unhappy with your current partner, talk with them about it. If that doesn't work, get a divorce first. Anything's possible. Have some sort of plan, though. Don't go into a situation without a realistic assesment of the costs and benefits of your actions. No corporation would base major decisions on infatuation alone.
Posted by Jickstress on December 4, 2002, at 21:57:03
In reply to Re: crush on therapist..boundries, schmoundries » Ginjoint, posted by namesake on December 4, 2002, at 11:42:22
Quite frankly, namesake, It sounds as though your idea that you need to see this man in order to have closure is simply a way to rationalize setting up a meeting with him so you can throw yourself at him. If he was interested, he would have bitten the first time around.
Remember that when you fantasize about someone you have the opportunity to project onto him all of the qualities you want him him to have, and you can make the "relationship" work the way you want it to. This man has likely taken on, in your mind, much of what you feel is lacking in your current partner and relationship. Reality often differs dramatically from fantasy.
I hope I haven't upset you. I only attempt to be realistic.
Posted by Alan on December 4, 2002, at 22:23:29
In reply to Re: crush on therapist - namesake » namesake, posted by Eddie Sylvano on December 4, 2002, at 16:27:19
Believe me when I tell you from experience that you don't want to go there. Talk about your feelings of transference with ANOTHER unbiased therapist.
But if you want to invite trouble, that's your business. My therapist showed inordinate interest in me too and it took me 6 years to get over it in many therapy sessions with someone else BECAUSE issues of transference were not dealt with with the original crush properly. She just said go talk to your therapist about it (She was my psychopharmacologist).
There are no absolutes but acting out a crush with a therapist is about as close as one gets to self-destruction. TALKING about that crush and figuring why you are experiencing the crush is the issue. Everything else is just chatter and potentially catastrophic. That's why the psychological associations have very strict codes about such matters and it is encouraged to talk through this sticking point in a professional manner.
I even suspected that my crush was flirting to keep me going to her for pharm treatment because she was new to the practice...that's how much paranoia it can breed...
Alan
Posted by namesake on December 4, 2002, at 23:10:15
In reply to Crushes on therapists, posted by Alan on December 4, 2002, at 22:23:29
To everyone that has replied, so far, thank you. I already feel better, just having someone that can relate to, at least, parts of my dilema. I will be out of town, and not near a computer until Monday. Therefore, I will not be communicating on this site until then. I look forward to continuing this conversation. Thank you
Posted by judy1 on December 5, 2002, at 11:29:13
In reply to Re: Crushes on therapists, posted by namesake on December 4, 2002, at 23:10:15
It sounds as if you've gotten lots of good advice, but from someone who did cross the boundary- please, please don't go there. It is guaranteed to end in disaster, more for you perhaps than the therapist or pdoc- although they can certainly lose their license. I've posted ad nauseum on this, but 3+ years and I still hurt. take care, judy
Posted by namesake on December 9, 2002, at 11:26:46
In reply to Re: Crushes on therapists » namesake, posted by judy1 on December 5, 2002, at 11:29:13
All of these posts have been quite interesting to me. Some of my thoughts are these...Dinah, I like the thought of the "box" and "keep it in a special place in your heart", that helps. Eddie, why do you think that I would leave my family, or marriage, for this so-called relationship, should it happen?I'm not thinking that way. Is it not possible to have a relationship with another person, for different reasons than you have with your spouse, and state that up front, set those boundries?...Actually, I have been married for almost 2 decades, and my husband has given me space, inliew of a divorce, which I wanted. That was the same time that I met the crush.(So coincidental, Ha!)....Jickstress, yes, of course I know that this person has qualities that my spouse lacks! Namely, someone who cares to take the time to listen to others, and not "react" in a fury. That would be true of most therapists, don't you think? (Maybe I'm naive) As for "throwing myself at him",in reality I would more be inclined to sit there immobilized, and not be able to think of anything to say.Actually, I have only had long term relationships with female therapists. I almost wonder whether I should conquer my fears of not trusting men....one of my issues, since childhood, and seek such an encounter...To Alan and Judy, I can imagine things getting "mucked-up" b/n such a personal encounter as therapy, between a male and female. The thought of that makes me want to scream, "WHO DO THESE SHRINKS THINK THEY ARE, ANYWAY ? do they think that they are above human urges ?" God! the whole idea of it nauseates me.....Thank you for letting me go off on this.
Posted by Behuvius on July 11, 2012, at 19:22:34
In reply to crush on therapist, posted by goldfish on October 5, 2002, at 13:44:24
Yes! It is so good to hear of someone else who thinks what I think. I found the same thing. I have read tons of literature from both psychologists and attorneys alike on the subject, and they mock us up to be helpless little people who only like our therapists because of "transference" or that we are reenacting some unresolved childhood trauma. That is crap! And the thing is, noone will agree that you have a crush for any other reason.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on July 18, 2012, at 15:03:37
In reply to Re: crush on therapist, posted by Behuvius on July 11, 2012, at 19:22:34
I have been in love with my therapist for almost 8 years and could write a book at what has transpired.....transference/countertransference. Silly words for simply ...feelings!
Unfortunately, my t fights his feelings for me. It is excruciating to love someone and not have them (he is married). Among the 100's of provocative things he has said: "You are in my heart and in my head." If I were not married, I would probably go for it."
(Another) unfortunately, he has led me on. It would have been better if he had not let me know of his feelings for me.
Posted by hushpuppy on September 12, 2012, at 13:27:52
In reply to Re: crush on therapist, posted by sassyfrancesca on July 18, 2012, at 15:03:37
I don't know. At times I think the idea of transference is bogus but it does make some sense in my situation. I am a 58 year old woman who has been in a 30 year relationship with another woman. Back in early June I decided to get massage therapy because I'd been having lots of headaches, back and mostly neck pain and high blood pressue. I knew I was stressed at work and about life in general and I thought massage would help. It did! Tremendously. However after about just 6 weeks of it I found I had developed this strange but very strong compassion for my MT (massage therapist). It didn't feel like romantic love nor was there any leaning toward physicality other than perhaps a hug now and then which SHE initiated early on. She had told me some fairly personal stuff about her life around session 2 or 3 and it was bad stuff, which opened up the door to me in my mind for more of a friendship. When I expressed this all to her about session 7 or so, she took it badly. We talked a few times during which I tried to explain that I didn't want to cross her boundaries but that I cared about her and that I would like to be friends. She called me a few days later and told me she was terminating her services. She said "for now" so I wasn't sure where I stood. I communicated via email a few times and finally stopped at her shop to try to find out what the heck was going on in her head and she freaked. Told me I shouldn't be there and she seemed really angry and scared. She finally emailed me a few days later and threatened "further action" if I didn't leave her alone. Really sad, I just wanted to be friends and she couldn't deal with it. Before anyone comments that she's homophobic, I don't think so. I think that somehow I reminded her of the person who crossed her boundaries earlier in her life (and I have a suspicion it was really bad, maybe rape) or the situation did and she couldn't cope with it. She also was a very nurturing person (a male friend of mine who goes to her says that too) and my psychotherapist thinks there may have been both transferance and countertransferance going on. Either way, whether it was that or just real feelings on one or both of our parts (and by the way she is married and straight and in her 30's)it's really been hard to get over. Thoughts?
Posted by hushpuppy on September 12, 2012, at 13:33:47
In reply to Re: crush on therapist, posted by hushpuppy on September 12, 2012, at 13:27:52
And so I realized after I posted all that that I didn't mention what the transference supposedly is. My psychotherapist seems to think that I was not provided sufficient nurturing, especially physical contact, as a child. My mom was kind of cold and not very emotionally available. She loved me, I knew that, but she often didn't support me emotionally, because she had her own set of emotional problems. Ultimately, she passed them on to me. Neediness I guess. The MT was providing that physical nurturing I never got. I felt really comfortable with her and supported emotionally. She had a gentle demeanor and a kind and soothing voice. And she was very mindful during our sessions. I also don't get much physical nurturing in my relationship with my partner even though it is very good otherwise. So maybe the MT was fulfilling some of those needs as well.
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