Posted by mama141 on November 5, 2005, at 12:47:37
In reply to Re: Non-12 Step » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2005, at 18:35:37
Just as a clairfication as to what one can be "forced to do or pay for". In many, if not all, states in the U.S. there is a program for liscensed professionals that monitors people, even when suspected of drinking, drug use, abuse, diverting etc (Doctors, pharmacists, nurses, technicians etc.) You have no choice - you must go to, and PAY for a rehab. Then attend X number of meetings a week for usually three to five years -- AND pee in a cup at random intervals. It's either that or lose ones liscense. In some cases this is true even for mental health issues. Usually these programs are covered by the name "Employee Assistance Program" and operated by the state liscensing board and are run by NON-professional nazi-like functionaries. In at least one state and maybe more, you have no appeal, and NO redress...just suspicion is enough! Refusal to submit means you lose your license -no ifs ands or buts!
> > "The government does force people to AA / NA treatment programs BY LAW. Does the government pay for the person to attend by any chance?"
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> > AA/NA do not cost a nickel. Most people donate $1.00 at meetings they attend, but it isn't required. I've seen many people not donate.
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> Okay. But I'm not talking about the meetings. I'm talking about inpatient treatment programs that people are required to attend BY LAW. I'll just talk about what I know of the way things go in New Zealand and you guys can decide whether this is true of the US or not...
>
> Over here... Some people get court orders to attend inpatient treatment programs. And also: Ourpatient treatment programs. And also: detox. They have to do the program / detox by law. And the requirements on the programs / detox ALWAYS (no exceptions that I know of) involve AA / NA attendance. The programs / detox usually has some therapy componant too. That you HAVE to attend as part of the program. The therapy (individual and group) is AA / NA based. That means your therapist is trying to help you work through the steps. That is what therapy is about. The group therapy is in much the same vein.
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> You have to do therapy on 'relapse prevention'. That is based on the idea that total abstinence is the ONLY way to go and anything aside from that counts as a relapse which is unacceptable.
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> You have to do therapy on how you have this disease etc.
>
> And thus... The New Zealand government is forcing people to go to something that IMO constitutes a religious program...
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> > But according to my psychiatrist, the 12 step programs have the highest percentage.
>
> Okay. You might want to ask him about his source of information and how recent it is. I have heard they have had better success with token economies. Strictly speaking, that is psychological treatment rather then psychiatric treatment. He might not be aware of modern advances in psychological interventions. I'd be interested to look at the stats...
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> > "But you still have the steps. You still have the stated mission and so on and so forth. It is that stuff that I'm objecting to."
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> > Again, it largely depends on the group.
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> I'm thinking here of the standard jargon that is read out at the beginning of every meeting. Or every meeting that I ever attended. I thought that was the standard way of opening meetings. That all AA / NA groups did this. I'm also opposed to many things that are said in the handbook / bible.
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> I appreciate that different people take that stuff differently. Some people insist on a literal interpretation. Other people are more common sensical (IMO) and take it with a grain of salt and take what works and don't push the official line. But it is the official line that concerns me.
>
> > At the group I went to the guy that usually led the meetings said "you're here. That means the first 3 steps are done."
>
> Okay. That sounds pretty common sensical to me...
> But that is not the standard line.
> I mean... If it was the standard line then why don't they just drop those steps (seeing as they have been done already). I remember being told that those first three... Were the ones people typically had the most trouble with....
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> > "How did you go with confessing your sins to your higher power? Did that variety of higher power make it tricky to do some of the later steps?"
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> > There is no time frame on the steps, and they don't have to be done in order. I've done some, and not others.
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> Yeah. But once again... Not really the official line. Thats cool. I just wish the official line wasn't government funded. I wish it wasn't presented as the only option to recovery. I wish they would stop saying they are the 'best' option too... Because... Like I said... they have had good success with token economies and even if they are 'the best' so is CBT and yet (IMO) some people are more harmed than helped by it. ESPECIALLY when the AA / NA line doesn't seem to be working for them and yet they are told it is their only hope and there aren't any alternatives.
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> > Do you have to "stay quit?" I don't know. I'm a bit nervous to test that one yet.
>
> I would say... That it would be preferable to give the stuff the heave ho altogether. But I don't believe this has to be the answer for everyone. I just think that it would be easier to avoid it altogether than attempt to moderate it (which hasn't worked so well thus far). like with chocolate... if you don't have any for a while you don't really crave it so much. but have a little bit and boy oh boy do you start to crave for more. why put yourself in that position? but that being said, some people manage to do this and i don't see why we should frown on them.
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> > Higher power? It can be your own soul.
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> Not on the official line. Your higher power has to be something 'other' than you. because 'you' are powerless and this 'other' being will save you. and you need to confess your sins to your higher power (officially). thus... according to the official line you are required to believe in a higher power who is 1) beneficient (wants to help you not drink / drug 2) has the power to stop you drinking / drugging 3) is interested in your confessing your sins.
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> isn't this higher power that you are required to believe in (or you will die of your disease) starting to appear increasingly christian?
> according to the offical line.
> but that is the official line.
> and hence... it is preaching christianity (or christian like conception of god) and saying one HAS to do this in order to get better.
> I don't believe the government should fund that.
>
> > I agree that it isn't your fault that you jolly well LOVE whatever it is... I agree that your behaviour is UNDERSTANDABLE given your pain etc etc. But one does need to take responsibility... And that is ultimately what helped me to progress... Not accepting powerlessness but taking responsibility. IMO there is a difference...
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> > Maybe.
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> > Yes, you do have the choice.
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> > But it isn't your fault that you have the physiological makeup to become an addict.
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> I agree. That is not your fault. I dont' think anybody would choose that for themself.
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> >That is the part that you are powerless over.
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> yes. same with having mental health issues. we don't choose those either. and yet... we still have to be responsible for our behaviour.
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> > You aren't powerless over your behavior, just the fact that it's so damn hard to change it. And that you have physical as well as mental cravings.
>
> yeah. i agree. its not our fault its so damned hard to change it. its not our fault our bodies love it so. its not our fault that we have had crappy things happen in our lives. its not our fault that we hurt so much somtimes.
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poster:mama141
thread:573995
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/20050914/msgs/575639.html