Posted by pullmarine on October 11, 2000, at 23:25:22
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by SLS on October 9, 2000, at 11:11:23
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> > > The biggest problem with allowing a depressed individual to rationally decide to end their own life is that they are most often not rational.
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> > 1. Rational? according to what or whose standards?
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> If you are truly interested in the subject of how severe depression affects cognition, perception, and reality-testing, I suggest you investigate it. There are decades of inquiry into this matter. Perhaps you will then be able to answer your own question.There is plenty of research that negates this, look up depression+reality perception. If you can't find anything let me know, i'll provide you with data. Furthermore, are you telling me that albert einstein, freud, hannah arrendt, mark twain, cocteau, ambrose bierce, virginia woolf, etc. did not have accurate perceptions that were full of insight?
I worked in suicide prevention and trained people in it. My (extensive, if not endless)paper on suicide prevention, intervention and post-vention is available at SJERP, VUB. In this process, I saved four people via intervention, and said goodbye to my friend and lover, Thomas van Strijdonck, who took his own life with my blessing two years ago. And though I miss his presence, I'm glad he's finally at peace.
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> Did you know that a depressed individual cannot even perceive properly the emotional content of another human face? (Results of a decade of study of NIMH inpatients in the Department of Biological Psychiatry).
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> Again, if you are truly interested...
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I am truly interested, but i would like to review the data, the sample, and the backgrounds of the sample, the criteria under which the test group was chosen for 'depression', the tests and how they were constructed and carried out (ie. double blind?)> > > Their judgment is impaired and skewed by the warping of congnition and perception that is the manifestation of the depression itself.
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> > 2. Depressed persons have a much better sense and grasp of reality, ask your doc about this and other findings.
Plenty of research on this, including the ability to see through complex issues, generate information, solve puzzles, see through optical illusions far faster than non-depressed persons.> Is this what *your* doctor said? A much better grasp of reality? Give me your doctor's phone number. I think you are lying.
Nope, I studied psych baby, with a specialization in suicidology.
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> > > Their thought processes are inextricably contained within the confines of a depressed mood, influencing the individual's decision-making processes to draw conclusions that they might not draw in the absence of depression.
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> > 3. drawing conclusions from an accurate sense of reality. with thinking that is rational, and well thought out.
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> See your point #1.
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> > > 4. Suicidality is often fleeting. Suicide is not.
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> > There is something to be said for permanence.
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> And what exactly would that be?
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Peace baby.> I do not feel that depression and rational deliberative thought are mutually exclusive. It is dependent upon the individual's type of depression and the momentary state of brain-mind that they are in. Have you ever heard of "psychotic depression"? You may want to look into the accuracy of the sense of reality of the sufferer of this kind of depression. Just look up the word "psychotic".
>I'm familiar with the term psychotic. However, there are a number of definitions for this arbitrary human construct. which definition are you refering to and to what purpose?
> It would be extreme to take the position that depression de facto precludes the ability to produce appropriate decisions. I do not believe that the prospect of living a life with a severe case of intractable and torturous psychiatric illness qualifies any less than any other illness for the consideration of autoeuthanasia. However, I don't think the vast majority of depressed individuals who become suicidal qualify. Suicidality is often an impulse to escape an intensification of pain and feelings of doom. The pain and feelings of doom are either transient or treatable. Often, the same person gets suicidal episodically. Their "rational" decision-making processes seem to change with the changes in the severity of their illness. Do you feel it is rational to allow or encourage such an individual to successfully end their own life during such an episode?
>Depends, often suicide is a cry for help. In sucha case, I believe in intervention and prevention. In the case of Thomas (and also in my case), he had tried to end his pain a number of times. It was no longer a 'cry for help'. He was just sick of it, and he wanted the pain to stop, and he wanted to be at peace.
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JohnPS, did you know that a grief reaction is clinicly indistinguishable from 'depression'
poster:pullmarine
thread:42903
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000926/msgs/46159.html