Posted by SLS on October 1, 2000, at 6:19:31
In reply to Re: Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because... » SLS, posted by Racer on October 1, 2000, at 0:43:29
> I wanted to remind ToddFromPhoenix that there were practical consequences, as well as emotional, to violent death. It's all very well to say, "gee, everyone will get over my death, they'll be better off without me anyway" without looking to the practical aftermath: bills, arrangements, etc. It's not that that's the only priority I had. Only that it's something he probably hadn't really thought of.
O.K. I understand what you mean now.
> This, by the way, is also one of the things which has stopped me in the past.
I know that it has stopped many, many people, thank God. I can't say that it has ever entered into my own equation, though. However, the crushing agony that my family would suffer is something that grieves me to imagine.
> And during her great pain, she'll have to find them -- and PAY FOR them. Aside from the pain and suffering, do you have any idea how expensive death is??
Listen, the world is full of the financial hardships that death can produce.
There are free and "sliding-scale" programs available for supporting the grieved. I imagine there are free support groups for survivors of suicide. I don't know. I guess it depends upon whether or not someone lives in a city or a suburb.
> > People often get over loss. No one gets over extant pain - de facto.
> ?? Are you saying that no one ever feels better?
No. What I meant is that for any given moment that one feels pain, they have not escaped it. They can not, for they have already felt it. If someone is suffering from a severe biogenic depression that is not responsive to treatment, there is no escape from the torturous pain other than the loss or numbing of consciousness.
> Hell, I feel much better now than I did a year ago.
I feel joy for to know this of you.
> Great argument, and one I think most of us have tried. I'm not going to join in with you here, because I think it's too easy an answer, and that it's too easy to take another step down this slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? At physical illness? Disability? Depression? CURABLE illness? Acne??
Yes. This is the most difficult part of the whole issue. I don't know where to draw a line. However, I recognize that somewhere in the world somewhere in time, there are instances that occupy the tragic side of this line. I cannot treat this as a black and white, yes or no, or philosophical issue. It is much bigger than philosophy, in my opinion. Each individual and their circumstance is unique. I'm not sure that a concrete algorithm to evaluate "eligibility" is possible or desirable.
> I wanted to encourage life, by any means. I'll never tell you all life is precious. Ted Bundy, for example, chose to make his life less worthy than many others. I'm not against the death penalty. But anyone who could write what Todd wrote above, that person IS precious. His life is precious, and he has a lot to offer.
I strongly agree.
> I won't do anything to encourage him to make excuses for running away.
> > I know this is a stupid question, but I have to ask it. Are you a fortune teller? Chance is an abstraction in that it is nothing more than conceivable. Opportunity is to be extant. Can you guarantee someone that an opportunity will present itself to them? Can you tell them how long they must endure excruciating pain before it does?
> Of course not. I do know, though, that we can survive a lot of pain.
"A lot"? You have betrayed the complexity and painful contemplation of this issue. So, friend, where do *you* concede a line be drawn whereupon more-than-a-lot is too much?
> Depression is something which can be overcome.
For me, I hope you are right. I have invested 23 years of painful endurance and 18 years of drugs and hope and failure. Please guarantee me that my neurophysiological disorder will be successfully treated before I die. I'll be your best friend... (not such a good deal for you) :-)
You do not know if my depression will be overcome before my body is expended. Perhaps there is more to depressive illnesses you might be interested to investigate. It doesn't appear to me that you fully appreciate the biological nature of many people's predicament.
> And I'd like to remind you that I'm not suggesting to Todd that he do anything I haven't done myself. I survived!
But you don't know what things you haven't done that might be right for Todd. You are not him.
> Life is hard, problems hang on, I'm still fighting my way back. But you know what? I survived!
I am truly heartened to know this of you. Really.
> Maybe it's just me, but I'd say it's worth it.
For you.
I am SURE that you do not know how hard life can be. I know that it can be harder than you dare imagine. I know that it can be harder than you can imagine should you dare to. This is also true of me.
> Now, good luck everyone, and may your suffering be relieved.
> But for heaven's sake, don't end your suffering by making everyone else hurt more than you do now.
At this juncture, I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to acknowledge that they do not know what it is like to be every person in the world. There is much here to contemplate.
> If you've just got to do that, do it the way I do: call 'em up and whine at them! Equalize the pain, talk through your nose! Make 'em suffer: tell them all about what led up to the discovery of antisepsis.
Whatever it takes.
> But don't choose a permanent end to temporary pain.
You can't imagine.
Be well, Racer. You are a kind and compassionate human being. I like you. You deserve to continue succeeding in your struggles and fully realize the joys that you seem destined to experience.
- Scott
poster:SLS
thread:42903
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000926/msgs/45585.html