![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lucie lu on September 2, 2008, at 12:56:37
My T and I met this morning, our first meeting after his vacation. As always, he was welcoming and seemed genuinely glad to see me. I, of course, was very happy that he was back. But as I tried to talk about what Id been doing in his absence, I had all these strange reactions and responses, and ended up crying through much of the session. It was weird I still really dont understand where the tears were coming from. In fact, I really dont understand what this is all about, since I can only see a few isolated pieces. I am very confused. This was not at all how I thought the session would go. Toward the end of the session, I had this uncomfortably clear image of myself as a little girl, crying and holding onto her mothers knees, angry with the world and with her mother, but still wanting her for comfort. I told my T about that and he said gently, Well that is an important thing for a mother to do, isnt it? He was very sweet.
This year, the Vacation (I always think it should be capitalized) was challenging although mostly in a good way. The hard part was that in past years, our vacations have mostly overlapped, but this year I was home the entire time he was away. The good thing was that this year I was working really hard on my real outside life and trying to forge a new, stronger sense of self that could rely on social networks and relationships for stability. I was able to do things I had not been able to do before, which was very empowering. I knew he would also see these new developments as small triumphs, as I did. For me, telling him about these achievements was like my sharing a good report card with him, and that took up the first part of the session. Then unexpectedly, something crumbled in me and things took a very different turn. I actually got tearful as I was telling him about this trivial incident on Babble yesterday but couldnt tell him why until we touched on my sensitivity to feeling invisible (ACOA specialty). Then, again gently, he said and (you're afraid) that others you care about will become invisible too, like me? So we were able to frame some of my feelings in the context of old, familiar fears about abandonment and all the stuff weve worked on for so long. But what I couldnt understand was, why were these old things re-emerging now? He had returned, I survived and maybe even thrived a little, but despite all the little successes, I was much more upset now than when he left.
This is where I am very confused and feeling unsettled. I thought that maybe I put those feelings on hold while he was away, and only felt safe enough to express them when he was back. He said that sounded like a healthy strategy. Then I raised another issue that I thought might be connected the fear of getting well and not needing him anymore, and ending the relationship. By then I was sobbing again. We have talked this over a million times and still it never fails to provoke an emotional reaction from me echoing old losses. He keeps telling me that things are not so black and white, that our relationship will not be over even when we are not meeting regularly. (Dinah, you are not the only one who is terminophobic!) I ended the session a few minutes early at what seemed for me like a comfortable ending place. I felt like OK, now that weve gotten this weird and confusing stuff over with today, maybe next time we meet we can return to that comfortable, familiar place we were in before he went away. Somehow, though, I doubt that things will out quite like that.
Then sometime between the sessions end and now, this little germ of an idea started rattling around my brain. Yes, someday in the future it will be hard when I say good-bye to him, but in part is this not also because he is the living reservoir of my past and he knows, and sees, me as the person who has grown up through that life? Can I really be visible without him, after so much that was there, is gone? Too much stuff flying around this morning.
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2008, at 16:17:07
In reply to My T is back and we met today (long), posted by lucie lu on September 2, 2008, at 12:56:37
Terminophobic. I like that term. :)
Not that I like the feelings behind it.
I was recently really clingy and tearful about therapy, even though therapy was going pretty well. Daisy pointed out that I had just gone through a period of disruption and anxiety. Like a kid that may have fun at daycare, when Mommy came, I felt safe enough to feel all the things I hadn't really fully allowed myself to feel. Is it possible that since your therapist is home now, you have the safety to feel afraid about his leaving?
I think I'd have been a bit upset about his answer. Silly of me. If my therapist said that even when we aren't meeting regularly we'd still have a relationship, the "still have a relationship" would pass over me and the "aren't meeting regularly" would echo through my brain.
Posted by 10derHeart on September 2, 2008, at 16:28:05
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long) » lucie lu, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2008, at 16:17:07
well, I know this will be out of blue, as I rarely post, AND, no one terminophobic (that included me before I was forced into it) "really" wants to hear this, but...
"Still have a relationship" can be underestimated. "Still have a relationship" can suddenly become very important. A Huge Thing. A Precious Thing. THE Thing.
Perspective changes when "aren't meeting regularly" is the *only* choice and "still having a relationship" is all there is.
:-( Sorry to make this about me, sorta....just venting....sorry lucie...
Posted by 10derHeart on September 2, 2008, at 16:29:17
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long) » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on September 2, 2008, at 16:28:05
Posted by Tamar on September 2, 2008, at 17:35:36
In reply to My T is back and we met today (long), posted by lucie lu on September 2, 2008, at 12:56:37
Hi Lucie,
Your therapist sounds like a great guy. I like that he was genuinely pleased to see you, that he was pleased about your achievements, and that he got the thing about wanting motherly comfort despite the anger.
I know I definitely put my feelings on hold when my therapist was away all through June. And the first session back is always a difficult one, at least in my experience.
I was really struck by what you said about feeling invisible. I hadnt realised it was an ACOA thing. My dad was alcoholic and I hadnt connected that to my fear of invisibility. And I dont know about you, but there were certainly times when I really needed or wanted to be invisible, to avoid my fathers bullying.
So I feel some conflict about it. I dont want to be invisible to my therapist, but Im also very afraid of letting him see me. Last week my therapist said something about the inside parts of me that I hide becoming real by becoming part of my relationships with other people, and that it can be frightening. (He was more articulate than that, but I cant remember his exact words.) Its interesting (and scary) how the whole issue of visibility / invisibility can be so fundamental to identity as a whole.
Sorry, Im not expressing myself very clearly. I wanted to say something about how even after the relationship ends it still exists - not just as a memory, and not like after a bereavement, but because both the therapist and the client are still part of each others identity. That the people we are afterwards is shaped by the relationship, and those changes dont just disappear. But I cant get the words right I need to start saving up for a bigger brain
Tamar
Posted by caraher on September 2, 2008, at 18:03:49
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long) » lucie lu, posted by Tamar on September 2, 2008, at 17:35:36
Interesting business about invisibility - I'd never heard of that as a thing children of alcoholics become sensitive to. (That's scarcely surprising; I've actually avoided looking into children-of-alcholics issues, I guess because although my dad was alcoholic I never had any feeling that it was a big deal growing up.)
One thing I know I'm sensitive to is the sense that nobody would notice if I weren't around. I don't think I seek the spotlight at all - I'm actually kind of reclusive - yet I do definitely want people to notice if I'm not there. If I disappeared, would anyone notice? I tend to take a "no" or "not much" answer as evidence for worthlessness...
yet sometimes I *do* want to be invisible... but I guess that happens to everyone in a situation they'd rather not be in!
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2008, at 19:22:02
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long) » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on September 2, 2008, at 16:28:05
If I had a therapist like yours, I might feel differently about it.
My therapist has many fine and useful qualities, of course. And I wouldn't trade him for the world. But any post termination relationship wouldn't look anything like yours.
Posted by lucie lu on September 2, 2008, at 19:25:47
In reply to Hope that didn't sound rude - I'm unsettled today (nm), posted by 10derHeart on September 2, 2008, at 16:29:17
Posted by onceupon on September 2, 2008, at 19:42:55
In reply to My T is back and we met today (long), posted by lucie lu on September 2, 2008, at 12:56:37
"Yes, someday in the future it will be hard when I say good-bye to him, but in part is this not also because he is the living reservoir of my past and he knows, and sees, me as the person who has grown up through that life? Can I really be visible without him, after so much that was there, is gone? Too much stuff flying around this morning."
This struck me. I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but it sounds kind of like one of the reasons I've stayed in my not-so-hot marriage for a long time. My husband has known me since forever - we basically grew up together. Sometimes it feels unbearable for me to relinquish that. My own memory is pretty poor, and he provides a lot of shared remembering for me.
Does it feel like your therapist is the only "living reservoir of your past?" Are there others who fill a similar capacity? And I don't ask that question because I don't think your relationship with your therapist is unique and important - and obviously, he is a reservoir of your relationship together - as are you.
I'm probably not being so clear here. I do understand the experience of feeling unsettled during a first session following a long absence. IME, it has a little bit to do with expectations - I've been saving up weeks of anticipation about the next session, and when it inevitably fails to live up, I feel discouraged. It doesn't sound like that's necessarily the experience for you though.
Gah - I'm trying to be supportive here, really. Just not sure it's coming out right.
Posted by lucie lu on September 2, 2008, at 19:44:24
In reply to Re: invisibility, posted by caraher on September 2, 2008, at 18:03:49
I'm sorry, that was my short-hand term for an aspect of my past that was in fact related to everyone in my family being alcoholic. I really don't know what "card-carrying" ACOA's are prone to feel because I've never actually looked into it that way. The way I see it, having alcoholic caretakers can lead one of two general ways - intrusive, violent, etc in which case maybe invisibility might be a good thing! But you could also go the other way and have no one because everyone's passed out or checked out most or all of the time. If there are no compensating adults available, it is another, different kind of tough childhood experience, can be identity-threatening at its worst and most elemental (if a tree falls in the woods...?) So invisibility is sort of my code word for aspects of that experience, one that was used a lot when my T and I were really in this life-or-death sort of struggle for the longest time, years when I couldn't tolerate his holding me but also thought I would die if I let go. Eventually thank God we both won and it had MOSTLY resolved for quite a long while. Until it suddenly reappeared again this week. That's why I was so unnerved when it suddenly chose to reappear when I had been DOING SO WELL! Argg!
Posted by JayMac on September 2, 2008, at 20:02:28
In reply to Re: invisibility - tamar and caraher, posted by lucie lu on September 2, 2008, at 19:44:24
> I'm sorry, that was my short-hand term for an aspect of my past that was in fact related to everyone in my family being alcoholic. I really don't know what "card-carrying" ACOA's are prone to feel because I've never actually looked into it that way. The way I see it, having alcoholic caretakers can lead one of two general ways - intrusive, violent, etc in which case maybe invisibility might be a good thing! But you could also go the other way and have no one because everyone's passed out or checked out most or all of the time. If there are no compensating adults available, it is another, different kind of tough childhood experience, can be identity-threatening at its worst and most elemental (if a tree falls in the woods...?) So invisibility is sort of my code word for aspects of that experience, one that was used a lot when my T and I were really in this life-or-death sort of struggle for the longest time, years when I couldn't tolerate his holding me but also thought I would die if I let go. Eventually thank God we both won and it had MOSTLY resolved for quite a long while. Until it suddenly reappeared again this week. That's why I was so unnerved when it suddenly chose to reappear when I had been DOING SO WELL! Argg!Hi Lucie,
I just wanted to say that first of all, it sounds like you have been on a long journey. Second, you are still doing very well! Third, you have an amazing T. Fourth, I'm a firm believer that sometimes we need to take 2 steps back *before* we can take 5 steps forward. It's something that I've dealt with again and again and again and again.Maybe you and others can relate, sometimes I feel like I'm stepping back so much that I will never go forward. I feel stuck. Something inside me tells me that I will be lifted up again, but it takes time and I have a hard time believing in myself. When I do get the strength back, I go further forward than I could have expected.
Although I or you go may back a few steps, inevitability, it was, and is, all a part of the plan!
Hope that helps. Take Care! =)
Jay
Posted by lucie lu on September 2, 2008, at 21:32:07
In reply to My T is back and we met today (long), posted by lucie lu on September 2, 2008, at 12:56:37
I have been trying for some time now to respond to all the amazing posts in this thread. There are just so many very interesting thoughts to follow up on, so many points of common contact but also those questions that it seems we all have trouble answering. The long and the short of it is that I am going to have to take a time out before I can reply in any that would due justice to your thoughtful and honest posts.
I am just a mess tonight. The only thing I can figure out at this point is what many of you have identified as the step forward-step backward dance of connection-disconnection-reconnection. It cannot be accidental that I have just made some really major new progress, during his absence no less, and then suddenly am catapaulted back into early-childhood, almost thumb-sucking. That is confusing and humbling enough, maybe a little humiliating actually, but even that's not the worst. The worst is that suddenly I am re-experiencing, as I was alluding to, some of the worst stuff we went through together. This is pouring out today from a door that I really thought we had sealed off pretty thoroughly. And if I don't get a grip pretty soon, I'm going to be in crisis again and I haven't been like that for so long. It used to be my usual state in those days or at least it seems so when I look back. I know that if I really do unravel I can always call my T. But I really don't want to. I want to find my own ground if I can, and just hold on, and wait for this to all pass over like a dust storm. But it's comforting to know that I really am not alone except for when I really need to be.
Posted by Daisym on September 3, 2008, at 0:52:10
In reply to My T is back and we met today (long), posted by lucie lu on September 2, 2008, at 12:56:37
Hi Lucie,
So much of what you describe is familiar. I think often we consolidate gains when we stop working on things for awhile - kind of like pro-athletes when they take a break before a big race. It isn't surprising that you would notice a lot of progress during your therapist's vacation. (I do like "Vacation" in Caps too.)
Sometimes I think we get really scared when we are doing well. And that scared part starts screaming and we melt down some. I'm often confused about these feelings that suddenly well up - I want to wrap myself around my therapist's knees and hide in the safety of his office. I've come to understand that he is my safe base. And I'm getting braver about venturing away from my safe base. But sometimes I need to come running back and I then get mad at him for *letting me* go so far from him. He sees through this anger as fear usually.
I'm wondering if these old feelings are your way of telling your therapist how much you missed and needed him. Sometimes instead of accepting the need to reattach for awhile, we go to that place of crisis - not on purpose, but we seem to have to feel really bad in order to receive the caring we want. We make sure we aren't invisible - at least in their office.
Being flooded with feelings is really hard to deal with. I'm sure you'll settle back in and sort this out. I see progress as being aware of the feelings, figuring out the triggers and moving forward. Each time a little quicker and little easier. My therapist says it is a spiral - we circle around and around our issues, learning something new each time.
I'm glad your therapist is back. You don't have to figure this out alone.
Posted by JayMac on September 3, 2008, at 1:02:24
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long) » lucie lu, posted by Daisym on September 3, 2008, at 0:52:10
> Hi Lucie,
>
> So much of what you describe is familiar. I think often we consolidate gains when we stop working on things for awhile - kind of like pro-athletes when they take a break before a big race. It isn't surprising that you would notice a lot of progress during your therapist's vacation. (I do like "Vacation" in Caps too.)
>
> Sometimes I think we get really scared when we are doing well. And that scared part starts screaming and we melt down some. I'm often confused about these feelings that suddenly well up - I want to wrap myself around my therapist's knees and hide in the safety of his office. I've come to understand that he is my safe base. And I'm getting braver about venturing away from my safe base. But sometimes I need to come running back and I then get mad at him for *letting me* go so far from him. He sees through this anger as fear usually.
>
> I'm wondering if these old feelings are your way of telling your therapist how much you missed and needed him. Sometimes instead of accepting the need to reattach for awhile, we go to that place of crisis - not on purpose, but we seem to have to feel really bad in order to receive the caring we want. We make sure we aren't invisible - at least in their office.
>
> Being flooded with feelings is really hard to deal with. I'm sure you'll settle back in and sort this out. I see progress as being aware of the feelings, figuring out the triggers and moving forward. Each time a little quicker and little easier. My therapist says it is a spiral - we circle around and around our issues, learning something new each time.
>
> I'm glad your therapist is back. You don't have to figure this out alone.
>
Very, very, VERY true. :)
Posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 8:56:43
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long) » lucie lu, posted by Daisym on September 3, 2008, at 0:52:10
> Hi Lucie,
>
> So much of what you describe is familiar. I think often we consolidate gains when we stop working on things for awhile - kind of like pro-athletes when they take a break before a big race. It isn't surprising that you would notice a lot of progress during your therapist's vacation. (I do like "Vacation" in Caps too.)Yes, I do recognize a need for consolidation after an extended period of upheaval albeit with adventurousness and progress. I like the pro-athletes analogy. I feel like a long-distance runner who crosses the finish line and then collapses, kisses the ground, gives thanks to higher powers, etc. Then makes her way over to T in the stands and clings to his legs like a limpet ;)
> Sometimes I think we get really scared when we are doing well. And that scared part starts screaming and we melt down some. I'm often confused about these feelings that suddenly well up - I want to wrap myself around my therapist's knees and hide in the safety of his office. I've come to understand that he is my safe base. And I'm getting braver about venturing away from my safe base. But sometimes I need to come running back and I then get mad at him for *letting me* go so far from him. He sees through this anger as fear usually.
>
I usually tend to connect that fear with terminophobia, hence its appearance in his office. But you bring up a good point, maybe it's really more elemental. This does all feel to me like the experiences of a young child during separation-individuation (?) phase. I recognize them from my own children. so maybe these feelings really are all normal and maybe part of grander plan of moving through developmental stages?> I'm wondering if these old feelings are your way of telling your therapist how much you missed and needed him. Sometimes instead of accepting the need to reattach for awhile, we go to that place of crisis - not on purpose, but we seem to have to feel really bad in order to receive the caring we want. We make sure we aren't invisible - at least in their office.
Crises, like being flooded with memories, are also a way of reminding me of our connection. We really bonded through the painful intensity of the really struggling years, where both of us pretty much got full trauma blast. But he stayed with me, really like a rock, even though I could see his anxiety, pain, and often exhaustion. I am still absolutely so in awe of how he stayed so completely dependable and constant, especially through all the dis-equilibrium. Plus trying to keep me in therapy even when I didn't think I could cope with it. I am incredibly grateful to him, he has made such an enormous difference in my life (which propagated to my family as well). Those experiences forged an incredible bond between us. Even so, it has been only recently that I have been able to really feel and accept his "regard." (Someday, tell me what that means?) Right now I am reactivating it in my mind to comfort me since I feel in dys-equilibirum, but that route comes at the cost of flooding, which is pretty counter-productive. I think I will call him today and ask for a short check-in call to help me refind my footing. He has always encouraged me to call, either weekend check-ins or when I really need him. I have his home number but have only called it once in all these years when I was really feeling totally out of control, suicidal etc. I voluntarily observe certain small boundaries (e.g. no email) myself as a thank you for how much he's given of himself over the years. Plus no good giving him a coronary...!
> Being flooded with feelings is really hard to deal with. I'm sure you'll settle back in and sort this out. I see progress as being aware of the feelings, figuring out the triggers and moving forward. Each time a little quicker and little easier. My therapist says it is a spiral - we circle around and around our issues, learning something new each time.
>
> I'm glad your therapist is back. You don't have to figure this out alone.
>
> Thanks. You too.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 9:06:51
In reply to Re: invisibility - tamar and caraher, posted by JayMac on September 2, 2008, at 20:02:28
>
> > I'm sorry, that was my short-hand term for an aspect of my past that was in fact related to everyone in my family being alcoholic. I really don't know what "card-carrying" ACOA's are prone to feel because I've never actually looked into it that way. The way I see it, having alcoholic caretakers can lead one of two general ways - intrusive, violent, etc in which case maybe invisibility might be a good thing! But you could also go the other way and have no one because everyone's passed out or checked out most or all of the time. If there are no compensating adults available, it is another, different kind of tough childhood experience, can be identity-threatening at its worst and most elemental (if a tree falls in the woods...?) So invisibility is sort of my code word for aspects of that experience, one that was used a lot when my T and I were really in this life-or-death sort of struggle for the longest time, years when I couldn't tolerate his holding me but also thought I would die if I let go. Eventually thank God we both won and it had MOSTLY resolved for quite a long while. Until it suddenly reappeared again this week. That's why I was so unnerved when it suddenly chose to reappear when I had been DOING SO WELL! Argg!
>
> Hi Lucie,
> I just wanted to say that first of all, it sounds like you have been on a long journey. Second, you are still doing very well! Third, you have an amazing T. Fourth, I'm a firm believer that sometimes we need to take 2 steps back *before* we can take 5 steps forward. It's something that I've dealt with again and again and again and again.Hi Jay,
Thank you on all counts. Yes, it has been a long journey - have required mental health services for most of my life until I met him. He is truly amazing. It took me a long time to accept that because, how could I be so lucky to have someone like him so committed to me? I managed to convince myself that he was really either a covert clock-watcher or else just a super-duper killer good T who did all this for everyone and not just for me. Finally I figured out that he couldn't possibly do all this for all of his patients and be able to keep his health and sanity. I should have just listened to how I felt inside and just trusted it.
> Maybe you and others can relate, sometimes I feel like I'm stepping back so much that I will never go forward. I feel stuck. Something inside me tells me that I will be lifted up again, but it takes time and I have a hard time believing in myself. When I do get the strength back, I go further forward than I could have expected.
Absolutely.
> Although I or you go may back a few steps, inevitability, it was, and is, all a part of the plan!
>
> Hope that helps. Take Care! =)
> Jay
>
> Thanks for your good thoughts.Lucie
>
Posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 9:35:02
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long), posted by onceupon on September 2, 2008, at 19:42:55
> "Yes, someday in the future it will be hard when I say good-bye to him, but in part is this not also because he is the living reservoir of my past and he knows, and sees, me as the person who has grown up through that life? Can I really be visible without him, after so much that was there, is gone? Too much stuff flying around this morning."
>
> This struck me. I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but it sounds kind of like one of the reasons I've stayed in my not-so-hot marriage for a long time. My husband has known me since forever - we basically grew up together. Sometimes it feels unbearable for me to relinquish that. My own memory is pretty poor, and he provides a lot of shared remembering for me.Hi Once- I think I know what you mean, and I feel that was about my husband more than my T. I've been married for 22 years, and it's had its ups and downs (had to have, with me in the equation, but not getting into respective contributions here). And, as in many long marriages, there were times we considered splitting after getting tired of the marital stresses. But there really is an important bonding and relational component that has value simply because it adds so much to your life to have someone who shares your memories. I'm not saying that's enough, but it is an important glue that can be one of the things holding the partnership together. So it may be one of the good things about your marriage, and it might help if there were someway to explore it together? He probably feels the same.
> Does it feel like your therapist is the only "living reservoir of your past?" Are there others who fill a similar capacity? And I don't ask that question because I don't think your relationship with your therapist is unique and important - and obviously, he is a reservoir of your relationship together - as are you.
Again I was talking in short-hand. My T is the only one who was on this journey with me, the only one who remembers with me or suffered the effects in therapy with me. (My family suffered in other ways but that's not something I particularly want to remember.) That shared experience is now a chunk in each of us. There is no one else who really knows. Perhaps the large importance of that journey in my life (and his) will eventually fade as other meaningful journeys are taken. Mine involved a lot of identity work, sorting through really poorly integrated dissociated ego states... now I'm pretty much a single, integrated nutso :) but no one but him would ever know anything about that, or knew about any of the states themselves. I'm still working on some identity issues but the worst has been worked through. So that's why I called him a living reservoir of my past - because he is the one who knew all the pieces and helped put me it all together.
> I'm probably not being so clear here. I do understand the experience of feeling unsettled during a first session following a long absence. IME, it has a little bit to do with expectations - I've been saving up weeks of anticipation about the next session, and when it inevitably fails to live up, I feel discouraged. It doesn't sound like that's necessarily the experience for you though.
Yes, actually in retrospect it was, and I didn't see it coming. Previously we have always pretty much vacationed at similar times, so I was occupied doing other things too. I have never before had to stay home while he was away for a month. It did make things very different. And being forewarned now, hopefully I will not be unprepared if the next meeting too is still a bit strange and unfulfilling. I'll try to be patient - and call him in between if I need to.
> Gah - I'm trying to be supportive here, really. Just not sure it's coming out right.
You are great. I got you (at least I think I did) Thanks very much for writing and helping me reflect more about this part of it all.
Lucie
Posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 9:48:59
In reply to Re: invisibility, posted by caraher on September 2, 2008, at 18:03:49
> Interesting business about invisibility - I'd never heard of that as a thing children of alcoholics become sensitive to. (That's scarcely surprising; I've actually avoided looking into children-of-alcholics issues, I guess because although my dad was alcoholic I never had any feeling that it was a big deal growing up.)
Although there was, inevitably, some other types of abuse (how often do great things happen to kids from seriously dysfunctional homes, anyway?) this was the neglectful, abandoning, inconsistent, isolating, developmentally deficient, lack of trust etc model of how living in alcoholic families can damage kids.
> One thing I know I'm sensitive to is the sense that nobody would notice if I weren't around. I don't think I seek the spotlight at all - I'm actually kind of reclusive - yet I do definitely want people to notice if I'm not there. If I disappeared, would anyone notice? I tend to take a "no" or "not much" answer as evidence for worthlessness...
>
I'm actually more introverted too than outgoing. I lived mostly inside my head, and it was a major struggle to rejoin the human race and finally see myself as one (?) I think that sense or fear of disconnection may be what you're referring to. Definitely a "if a tree falls" sort of dilemma and an aspect of the invisibility thing. This fear/need is probably on some level hard-wired into all of us. For most social species, being off by yourself tends to get your eaten by something large and extremely toothy :)> yet sometimes I *do* want to be invisible... but I guess that happens to everyone in a situation they'd rather not be in!
Yes - it would be nice to do at will!
Cara, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Lucie
Posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 10:05:33
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long) » lucie lu, posted by Tamar on September 2, 2008, at 17:35:36
> Hi Lucie,
>
> Your therapist sounds like a great guy. I like that he was genuinely pleased to see you, that he was pleased about your achievements, and that he got the thing about wanting motherly comfort despite the anger.Perceptive of both of you.
> I know I definitely put my feelings on hold when my therapist was away all through June. And the first session back is always a difficult one, at least in my experience.Actually it was your bringing up the subject in your first post to me that clued me in that there might be a connection between my behavior on Babble and with the Vacation. I honestly (obvliviously?) never really thought about the re-entry meetings. I remember we've had some unbelievably crazy last meetings before. Perhaps they just eclipsed the returns. I do remember one year being extremely angry with him for "deserting" me - leaving me on the operating table with all my guts hanging out, what the most polite part of my discussion, I think. But just before he left that time, I was in several crises at once. In desperation, he saw me daily for about 5 days and I was still flipping out about him leaving. Perhaps then his own strength gave out, I know he felt he failed (and I felt he had failed me). It remains between us one of many miscommunications, misteps, ruptures, of those days and never really resolved, except in a funny way, non-verbally. By some mutual, unspoken agreement, we simply have let that one slide. Every partnership has warts and that is probably the biggest of ours.
> I was really struck by what you said about feeling invisible. I hadnt realised it was an ACOA thing. My dad was alcoholic and I hadnt connected that to my fear of invisibility. And I dont know about you, but there were certainly times when I really needed or wanted to be invisible, to avoid my fathers bullying.I wrote somethng more about that in my reply to Caraher, who expressed something very similar in her post.
> So I feel some conflict about it. I dont want to be invisible to my therapist, but Im also very afraid of letting him see me. Last week my therapist said something about the inside parts of me that I hide becoming real by becoming part of my relationships with other people, and that it can be frightening. (He was more articulate than that, but I cant remember his exact words.) Its interesting (and scary) how the whole issue of visibility / invisibility can be so fundamental to identity as a whole.
I didn't follow what your T said but it sounded very intriguing - if you remember, let us know!
> Sorry, Im not expressing myself very clearly. I wanted to say something about how even after the relationship ends it still exists - not just as a memory, and not like after a bereavement, but because both the therapist and the client are still part of each others identity.
"That the people we are afterwards is shaped by the relationship, and those changes dont just disappear."That is very aptly put!
But I cant get the words right I need to start saving up for a bigger brain
Don't start the collection yet. You're doing very well :)
Lucie
> Tamar
>
>
Posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 10:22:22
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long) » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on September 2, 2008, at 16:28:05
10der, it sounds like you are really hurting. As I recall, you had a great T but then they moved? So you two are trying to stay in touch by whatever means possible? Talk about challenges of LDRs...But you are right, meeting regularly is only one phase or stage of the relationship, and the one we most understand. But there are others - meeting irregularly, talking when you can by phone, emailing, or just holding onto mementos and memories in between contacts - that are considerably more challenging or painful but still much better than completely severing a very valuable personal connection. Then another day, we may have to get by just on memories alone. Which is hard not only for us but for our Ts as well (whether they own up to it or not).
When I think these sad and anxiety-provoking thoughts (which, as a terminophobe, is too often), I actually am comforted by what Daisy's T said about people always being yanked from our lves all throughout our lifetime. I try to console myself by thnking about all the people that I *will* love who have not yet been yanked into my life. I am not always successful at this but someotimes I am and it helps.
Your continuing painis a tangible, palpable evidence of the enduring connection between you.
Maybe at some point you will be able to let go that particular means of keeping the connection in favor of one that fits the bill but with less pain on your part. To me this seems very much like Daisy's discussion of crisis and flooding etc to keep ourselves connected to our Ts.Having said all that, still it must be incredibly hard if you have not had plenty of time and mutual work to prepare for it. I wish you peace and healing.
((((((((10der)))))))))
Take care of yourself,
Lucie
> well, I know this will be out of blue, as I rarely post, AND, no one terminophobic (that included me before I was forced into it) "really" wants to hear this, but...
>
> "Still have a relationship" can be underestimated. "Still have a relationship" can suddenly become very important. A Huge Thing. A Precious Thing. THE Thing.
>
> Perspective changes when "aren't meeting regularly" is the *only* choice and "still having a relationship" is all there is.
>
> :-( Sorry to make this about me, sorta....just venting....sorry lucie...
Posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 10:24:50
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long), posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 10:22:22
Posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 10:35:10
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long) » lucie lu, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2008, at 16:17:07
> Terminophobic. I like that term. :)
We could probably discover quite a powerful voting bloc who would support a candidate running on an anti-termination platform...
> Not that I like the feelings behind it.
No, and I think the anxiety should have a name of its own and maybe go into the DSM-IV. Admittedly they could argue it's an iatrogenic
disorder, but plenty of iatrogenic conditions are listed in Merck and other medical books. We deserve equality.One time, great under the influence of terminophobic episode, I painted an abstract about termination... it looked like a foreboding path walking straght into the sun, which also looked a bit like an atomic bomb being exploded... subtle, wasn't I?
> I was recently really clingy and tearful about therapy, even though therapy was going pretty well. Daisy pointed out that I had just gone through a period of disruption and anxiety. Like a kid that may have fun at daycare, when Mommy came, I felt safe enough to feel all the things I hadn't really fully allowed myself to feel. Is it possible that since your therapist is home now, you have the safety to feel afraid about his leaving?
Absolutely. As I've now become aware of from all the posts. Spot on.
> I think I'd have been a bit upset about his answer. Silly of me. If my therapist said that even when we aren't meeting regularly we'd still have a relationship, the "still have a relationship" would pass over me and the "aren't meeting regularly" would echo through my brain.
WEll, I admit that both the topic and the words were of my choosing, not his. "Not meeting regularly" was my euphemistic expression. Poor man. We have literally gone over this over and over and over. I can play the tape now in my head. Maybe that's the idea.
Glad to hear you're returning to normal life but sorry that your T will be away later this month. Keep busy and post a lot!
Lucie
Posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 10:37:23
In reply to Re: My T is back and we met today (long) » lucie lu, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2008, at 16:17:07
Posted by onceupon on September 4, 2008, at 13:09:09
In reply to others as holders of our memories » onceupon, posted by lucie lu on September 3, 2008, at 9:35:02
"it is an important glue that can be one of the things holding the partnership together. So it may be one of the good things about your marriage, and it might help if there were someway to explore it together? He probably feels the same."
Thanks for this. I never thought about exploring this together. It's tricky though, because sometimes I feel like I'm holding on to the relationship only because of these shared memories. Well, and our son, but that's a different story.
> Again I was talking in short-hand. My T is the only one who was on this journey with me, the only one who remembers with me or suffered the effects in therapy with me. (My family suffered in other ways but that's not something I particularly want to remember.) That shared experience is now a chunk in each of us. There is no one else who really knows. Perhaps the large importance of that journey in my life (and his) will eventually fade as other meaningful journeys are taken. Mine involved a lot of identity work, sorting through really poorly integrated dissociated ego states... now I'm pretty much a single, integrated nutso :) but no one but him would ever know anything about that, or knew about any of the states themselves. I'm still working on some identity issues but the worst has been worked through. So that's why I called him a living reservoir of my past - because he is the one who knew all the pieces and helped put me it all together.
Ah, I see what you mean now. It almost sounds like he's played a sort of parental role with you, getting to see you and help you "grow up" as it were (I don't mean this in a pejorative sense - i.e., he's just witnessed a lot of change in you that wasn't and couldn't be apparent to others). Maybe termination feels a little like the death of a parent - that *other* living reservoir of our growth (because of course, you're a reservoir of that same growth) can't be accessed.
> Yes, actually in retrospect it was, and I didn't see it coming. Previously we have always pretty much vacationed at similar times, so I was occupied doing other things too. I have never before had to stay home while he was away for a month. It did make things very different. And being forewarned now, hopefully I will not be unprepared if the next meeting too is still a bit strange and unfulfilling. I'll try to be patient - and call him in between if I need to.I hope you mean you'll try to be patient with him AND yourself.
>
> You are great. I got you (at least I think I did) Thanks very much for writing and helping me reflect more about this part of it all.
>No problem. It's nice to learn vicariously while on this board too :)
once
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