![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by liliths on December 9, 2006, at 6:16:07
In reply to Re: UPDATE lilith » liliths, posted by Phillipa on December 8, 2006, at 18:24:25
thanks phillipa.. I'm pretty floored by the whole thing myself.. it's been amazing and truly horrific to discover I really don't have any rights under the law in this case - at least not right now, under these circumstances
I think I may have found an employment atty who also does health law - did a google search and he's in my area so I'll contact him on monday and find out - I just can't afford to be shelling out more $ for these consultations. It cost me $300 to find out from the Health Law attys I had no chance... sigh, so hopefully this one won't cost as it's a potential monetary suit (I think)
I just want to hide in the bed LOL
thanks again for listening. I think the support I've found here really is about the only thing keeping me going right now
namaste,
lilith> I don't think it's a pity pot I think it disgusting that your doctor doesn't count? Love Phillipa
Posted by B2chica on December 11, 2006, at 12:33:51
In reply to Re: UPDATE lilith » Phillipa, posted by liliths on December 9, 2006, at 6:16:07
hi lilith
i don't know much about the legal system but i have concerns about your 'accepting' the PRN to be able to practice. if you initially agree couldn't it come back to bite you if you sue? they could say, well she must have not needed them that badly if she was willing to give them up? (or something stupid like that)
i would really urge you to talk to an atty asap before the committee mtg and ask them about any decision you make.
i do understand that this is NOT an easy decision. and i think it's disgusting that you are even IN this type of position. i think what they are doing is absolutely monstrous. how can they assume to know best for you? someone they don't even know? and why is your doctor's opinion voided?if you agree to them and stop current meds and start the 'med trials' again, will you even be able to work?
and what happens if nothing else seems to work? and you have to go back on these meds, can that be proof and then they'll leave you alone? maybe they just want to see if you're willing to try to change? (not that they have a right to do this to you) but can they turn around and revoke your license at anytime? will you have to go through this again?you really need an advocate i wish i knew someone that could help you.
sorry i'm not much help but i think your situation is HORRIBLE and i want you to know along with all the other wonderful babblers here you have my support as well.
Best WIshes to you.
b2c.
Posted by liliths on December 11, 2006, at 13:58:09
In reply to Re: UPDATE lilith, posted by B2chica on December 11, 2006, at 12:33:51
hi b2c
thank you so much for this post! You just made my day :)
I do have all those concerns myself - particularly falling apart as this ordeal put a HUGE dent in my ability to function - feels like an awful time to be playing with meds that work fairly well when I'm in a better situation.
As I've said, I've lost so much of my motivation, confidence & self-esteem. It feels impossible at this point, even with a license, to regain the ground I lost. I can barely leave the house. I have credentials in other skills but am totally unable to go out and market myself to find work (always was my weak point!) The opportunities I had would have placed me in the position of being 'out there' and when I was in school, I believed utterly in my ability to do this work. I was a gifted therapist and it was a win-win situation for me... in order to be effective as a facilitator in the healing of others, my self-care soars, as I need to be grounded and centered. I experienced moments of sheer transcendence :)
I made a bunch of calls today to employment attys - of course, haven't spoken to anyone yet LOL
fortunately, the legal issue is that these doctors are simply not allowed to do what they're doing - and they're getting away with it because of their monopoly status with the Massage Review Board and the Dept. of Health. It will be a discrimination suit - if I have a suit. I am hoping some of these attys will meet with me without charging me as I'm totally broke. It cost me $300 to have the health law attys tell me there was nothing I could do. Plus, PRN makes you pay for all the tests yourself - so far this lovely experience has cost me $1000
and to think, if I'd simply checked 'no' on my license application, I'd actually have a license. Says something about the dangers of being honest in this society. But doing that would have also left me open to fraud charges if they had ever found out. I tend to honest by nature... just hadn't a clue the system was so unfairly stacked against me
but yes, I am aware of ALL the dangers you pointed out. I'm just as aware of the ramifications of not being licensed. Either way, it sucks... but I am hoping to get counsel before just giving in to PRN. My Review Board Hearing is January 17
in the meantime, I am looking into alternative meds - not fun!
One of the 'conditions' is that I be willing to submit to random drug tests to prove I am off all opiates. I would lose my license if I went back on them without having won the case against PRN for discriminatory practice that would allow me access to be treated by my pdoc as we see fit.
and I must tell you, I have 'authority' issues to begin with. This is simply enraging me!! To even think of submitting makes me want to just go kill myself - but I have commitments which don't allow me that option and I'm fortunately angry enough to want to see if I can do something about this before just calling it quits
oh thank you for allowing me to rant!! Truthfully, I don't want to give in but I am under pressure to at least give it a try.
I'm really hoping some atty is going to step in and help
wish me luck! I'll certainly keep updating this post
thanks again
namaste,
lilith> hi lilith
> i don't know much about the legal system but i have concerns about your 'accepting' the PRN to be able to practice. if you initially agree couldn't it come back to bite you if you sue? they could say, well she must have not needed them that badly if she was willing to give them up? (or something stupid like that)
> i would really urge you to talk to an atty asap before the committee mtg and ask them about any decision you make.
> i do understand that this is NOT an easy decision. and i think it's disgusting that you are even IN this type of position. i think what they are doing is absolutely monstrous. how can they assume to know best for you? someone they don't even know? and why is your doctor's opinion voided?
>
> if you agree to them and stop current meds and start the 'med trials' again, will you even be able to work?
> and what happens if nothing else seems to work? and you have to go back on these meds, can that be proof and then they'll leave you alone? maybe they just want to see if you're willing to try to change? (not that they have a right to do this to you) but can they turn around and revoke your license at anytime? will you have to go through this again?
>
> you really need an advocate i wish i knew someone that could help you.
>
> sorry i'm not much help but i think your situation is HORRIBLE and i want you to know along with all the other wonderful babblers here you have my support as well.
>
> Best WIshes to you.
> b2c.
Posted by B2chica on December 11, 2006, at 14:14:32
In reply to Re: UPDATE lilith » B2chica, posted by liliths on December 11, 2006, at 13:58:09
i'm so sorry.
i just DON"T understand WHY you need to be off opiates...they're LEGAL! and if they are Rx????? WTF @#(@$*#(&$&!!
if they were Not legal or they were not Rx i'd understand. but do they not like your doc? is he not considered a 'real' doctor? i just don't understand why they are not taking his word, i understand bureaucracy but usually all they should need is a written letter from your doc saying these meds are medically necessary...no questions asked!
and you're right...i mean it really makes a person wonder why they're even honest to begin with?!
but i'm afraid i'm with you...my luck i'd lie and it would soon catch up with me and i'd end up in jail or something.and i hope to there is something you can do. but even if not, at least know that you are giving it 100% NOW, you are not taking their decision lying down. even within that you ought to be proud of yourself lilith!
my prayers are with you.
remember...breathe...it's not you, it is a lousy situation that is not in your control. all you can control are your responses. you are strong. you will get through this.
take care of yourself
b2c.
Posted by liliths on December 11, 2006, at 14:51:29
In reply to Re: UPDATE lilith, posted by B2chica on December 11, 2006, at 14:14:32
YOU ARE A BLESSING!
it simply came down to the evaluating psychiatrist stating that I am safe and stable to practice on my current regimen BUT in his opinion, he didn't see the need for the hydrocodone. Nevermind that was part of the regimen that allowed me to be 'safe and stable' to begin with... it was a case of "gee, she's doing well on her meds, let's change them" Oh and he also wants me to go off the klonopin and take meds that I've already tried that don't work but wasn't vehement about it, though he said if I did continue, I should abstain from alcohol completely. Oh I'm such a big drinker... I'm lucky if i have a drink once a month LOL
then PRN took that part of the evaluation and stated "it is not a recognized treatment for depression" AND THEY HAPPEN TO BE WRONG ABOUT THAT. I have a TON of documentation supporting its use.. but again, I can't get into a pissing contest with them with the board, as the board will simply deny me my license. They also stated they planned on contacting my pdoc about the klonopin but somehow I don't see my pdoc being very agreeable about it. We called PRN from his office and he ended up calling them 'ignorant' - they wouldn't listen to a word he said and started shrieking at me about proving I wasn't impaired. And just where did it ever say I was? They were just awful. He hung up on them and said "get an attorney"
I thought they wouldn't be allowed to 'make' me change my drugs. And legally they're not but that was the recommendation they made to the massage review board and they won't get into different doctors views. The health law attys told me the dept. of health considers licensing a priviledge, not a right (despite the fact that you must 'qualify' - it's not like they can just bestow a license on anyone!) So IF I wanted my license, I had to agree - it was their way or the highway
I makes absolutely NO sense!!! I know that
thank you so much for your indignation! I did come really close to not disclosing it. The main push to be honest (in addition to simply not wanting to lie and believing it wouldn't be a problem - I'd have lied in a heartbeat if I knew what was coming) was that in using my health insurance, I knew there were records and figured since I had left a paper trail, it was in my best interests to not pretend I didn't read the question correctly - oh how I wish I'd done that now!!!
One thing you can be sure of. Even if I do comply, I'm not going down without voicing my opinion to that board! That alone could cost me my license LOL
thank you again!! Now if only some of those emplyment attys would call me back already!!
you're wonderful! I really needed to hear that I'm doing ok under the circumstances... that at least I'm taking action. It's so easy to just hate yourself for being frozen!
namaste,
lilith> i'm so sorry.
> i just DON"T understand WHY you need to be off opiates...they're LEGAL! and if they are Rx????? WTF @#(@$*#(&$&!!
> if they were Not legal or they were not Rx i'd understand. but do they not like your doc? is he not considered a 'real' doctor? i just don't understand why they are not taking his word, i understand bureaucracy but usually all they should need is a written letter from your doc saying these meds are medically necessary...no questions asked!
> and you're right...i mean it really makes a person wonder why they're even honest to begin with?!
> but i'm afraid i'm with you...my luck i'd lie and it would soon catch up with me and i'd end up in jail or something.
>
> and i hope to there is something you can do. but even if not, at least know that you are giving it 100% NOW, you are not taking their decision lying down. even within that you ought to be proud of yourself lilith!
> my prayers are with you.
> remember...breathe...it's not you, it is a lousy situation that is not in your control. all you can control are your responses. you are strong. you will get through this.
> take care of yourself
> b2c.
Posted by liliths on December 12, 2006, at 14:46:19
In reply to UPDATE, posted by liliths on December 7, 2006, at 12:11:12
as strange as it might seem, it's looking improbable that I'm going to be able to find an atty to take the case - so far, no one will touch it. Some don't even understand what I'm talking about and of the ones that do, I get the feeling no one wants to take on PRN
in the meantime, I'm going to contact someone at the dept. of health for some advice - she was out today - I want to check and see if there's ANY possibility I can get PRN's recommendations about my meds changed. I wrote a letter, and plan to ask this woman who's been pretty good to me so far what she thinks.
then I'm going to go shoot myself
sorry for that, I am feeling REALLY defeated and depressed by this... I am so damn tired of fighting for every breath I take
I'll keep you all posted on what she says and I'm hoping I'll get the energy to keep digging for an atty
namaste,
lilith
Posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2006, at 18:31:59
In reply to Re: UPDATE » liliths, posted by liliths on December 12, 2006, at 14:46:19
Seriously I don't get it. Where do you live? Not trying to insult you as I saw a massage therapist weekly for years and thought once before I got sick of going to the Edgar Cayce institute and taking massage theraphy. Their course was 6 months long and then you were certified. No license like my RN at that time. But I know this is ridiculous but somehow is it now associated with kinky massage so the law is so strict? I know my massage therapist was so happy when she could be licensed and take insurance. Love Phillipa
Posted by liliths on December 13, 2006, at 7:29:15
In reply to Re: UPDATE » liliths, posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2006, at 18:31:59
hi Phillipa,
Massage Therapy qualifications differ from state to state. Some require nothing, others Certification and the Licensed states (and probably Certified states as well) also vary in how many hours of training, which national certification is used, etc...
I live in Florida, which has one the highest per capita number of licensed massage therapists of all licensed states. The current requirements are only 500 hours (which can be accomplished in a 6 month program) but I went to a Community College and took a 750 hr program which took over 9 months. They are supposed to be raising the standard for the state soon and they should. The National Boards are extremely difficult and require a tremendous amount of knowledge. Whether you were taught these things or not, you are expected to know them.
Personally, I think the big bugaboo is the hydrocodone. Despite the fact that there are numerous papers supporting its use as an augment to treatment-resistant depression, this country is absolutely terrified of painkillers!! BUT the fact that PRN CAN dictate what another doctor can prescribe, for any reason, is outrageous to me!!! and totally illegal, yet it happens.
The mandatory drug tests probably have me the angriest because it means a continued violation of my rights. And they have suggest that if I'm 'allowed' to take klonopin, I not be allowed to drink alcohol. Now I don't drink very much - hardly at all and when I do, I certainly don't take more klonopin. I take the stuff in divided doses. But no one has the right to tell me what I can and cannot do here and it is simply killing me.
I have been on this drug regimen for close to 5 years without an problems and here these people come along and get to steal my freedom. I'm going to spend 5 years looking over my shoulder? What if I'm with friends who are smoking pot - how much second hand smoke will have me showing positive for thc? and what if I felt like having a hit? (may be rare but I want the right!) And if they say no alcohol and I have a couple of glasses of wine with friends? And the BIG one - if I am in pain, I am going to take painkillers! that will mean the test will show positive for opiates... so will I lose my license over any or all of these things??
am I'm supposed to live the next 5 years of my life totally abstinent, in fear and in pain? I think not!
I already have profesional insurance - fat lot of good it's doing me but my student membership was expiring and since I 'thought' my license was on its way I went ahead and took advantage of renewing to professional. That was in September.. by the time my license arrives - IF it does - it will be approx. 6 months of wasted insurance I've already paid for
the whole thing is sickening. I guess I'll find out today from the woman at the dept of health if I have even the slightest chance - the health law attys told me I don't but I still want to see what the DOH says... and even if I lose and have to comply to get the damn license (which I don't even want anymore - they've destroyed it for me), it's still worth fighting for my rights
I'm not just going to roll over
thanks for understanding. Your massage therapist was just lucky she wasn't being treated for depression!
namaste,
lilith> Seriously I don't get it. Where do you live? Not trying to insult you as I saw a massage therapist weekly for years and thought once before I got sick of going to the Edgar Cayce institute and taking massage theraphy. Their course was 6 months long and then you were certified. No license like my RN at that time. But I know this is ridiculous but somehow is it now associated with kinky massage so the law is so strict? I know my massage therapist was so happy when she could be licensed and take insurance. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on December 13, 2006, at 19:08:20
In reply to Re: UPDATE RANT » Phillipa, posted by liliths on December 13, 2006, at 7:29:15
Lilith as a matter of fact my first massage with her was at my pdoc's at the time. He believed in a lot of alternative things massage being one. He wanted his patients relaxed before their appointments. He did away with them as he was bilking the insurance companies (another story) but she set up practice with another therapist in town. At the time I saw her her fees were $50/hr. Recently had one here (NC she's in too) and the price was $95/hr. Of course insurance doesn't pay . It only did when this pdoc used it. He addicted me to high doses of benzos. I'm paying for that now. My Oldest Daughter is in Stuart what part of the State are you in? She's financially doing very well a VP of a trust company. And I might add if I didn't in one of my posts to you above that when I broke my arm took my first percocet and l at bedtime for the pain. I was laughing at times. So I know it works for depression. Fat deal of ever getting on it. Love Phillipa
Posted by liliths on December 14, 2006, at 7:39:30
In reply to Re: UPDATE RANT » liliths, posted by Phillipa on December 13, 2006, at 19:08:20
Hi Phillipa,
I never meant to imply your massage therapist was anything other than totally professional and capable - I hope you didn't think I was slamming her. Massage is a kinesthetic, intuitive blend of art and science. One only first begins their path AFTER school... when you start to study the modalities you feel drawn to and no school can give you the gift - it can only teach you the basics of how to use it. At best, you come out with a 'sampling' - it was why I was taking outside courses even as student
how cool that your pdoc was using it. I must ask though, what kind he had your therapist using? Full body swedish on a table or perhaps seated chair and for how long? I have a hard time with the idea of getting undressed at my pdoc office LOL and think doing chair massage would have been more practical as well as less invasive for some of his more skittish clients :) Actually I would personally use craniosacral - I think it would be an ideal modality prior to a consultation - and one stays dressed for it though they should be in comfortable clothes. What kind of massage does you therapist do?
I live in ormond beach. It's on the east coast, just north of daytona beach, in central florida. I'm fortunate enough to be by the ocean (the only reason I can think of for living here LOL) It IS a really tough place to earn a living however. I think of florida as an environmentally beautiful but soulless place to live. I had to sell my house to go back to school :( It killed me but I sold it low to an investor in exchange for being able to rent it. And then turned around and bought myself a motorcycle. I figured since I was losing one dream, I really shoud fulfill another. And I will say, that the reality was even better than the fantasy. I love my boy and he gets great gas mileage too :) Riding really makes me happy. But since this nightmare began, I have trouble doing many of the very things which make me feel better. Spend most of my time frozen in the house. I'm a gym rat too, totally dependent of that endorphin release LOL yet my workouts have been really sporadic and my whole self-care has plummeted. I'm trying to at least get into the gym more often. It's a world in which one has control. The very thing they're stealing from me!
I know stuart is much farther south. Did your daughter fair well during the hurricanes we had a few years ago? You sound quite proud of her and rightly so - I get the feeling you make a great mother :))
your pdoc sounds like a odd blend. On the one hand he was using massage (though you say he was really bilking the insurance companies - how sad for the rest of us!) but on the other hand you said he got you addicted to benzos
May I ask how he did that? what were you taking and and how much?
I've been on klonopin for years without any problems. Can taper down without any discomfort, though I don't know if I ever stopped entirely - though I may have for a brief period. I was cutting a lot of my meds while I was in school (except for my ADD ones and taking a lot of supplements for memory and brain function. The stress was enormous!) My wellbutrin gives me word finding difficulty which is so frustrating! I had gone down from 300 mg in divided doses a day to just 100mg once daily. I recently went back up to 200mg and I'm already having some problems
It IS amazing given the amount of evidence of how well opioids work for some people, that there is so much resistance to using them. As I stated in another post, I really believe the US has a stake in making sure we stay miserable. Studies show unhappy people spend more money, make more impulse buys
as you know, I'm having to look for new meds and what a mess I'm in! Anything even remotely promising isn't available here
yes, I did read of your fun experience with percocet. Oddly enough, I've been able to get therapeutic relief on pretty much the same dose for years. And I also stopped for a while during school to make sure it wasn't affecting my memory. It wasn't. I tends to energize and focus me on my dose. If I take more, it has the same effect but I will 'feel' the buzz as well and coming down from that, I'll get sleepy. On my dose, it's far more subtle... but definitely there
I'm still enraged by the interference! It's illegal yet it's allowed. haven't a clue what to try
I'd appreciate any suggestions. I''ve already tried MAOI's and SSRI's... even tried topomax, serzone and effexor... but this was all back when I was only trying one med at a time. I remember trying wellbutrin back then too and it not helping either so there's definitely a lot to be said for finding the right cocktail. The only meds I plan on keeping are my focalin XR and my klonopin (though they're going to attempt to take the klonopin if they can, fortunately I know my pdoc won't give in on that) It's only the hydrocodone they are demanding I stop and be drug tested to prove I am off. and good luck with that! I have no intention of not taking painkillers if I am in pain i.e.: dental, etc.. ANYTHING which gives me pain will be dealt with LOL I do remember the effexor being somewhat effective but it made me immediately anorgasmic and I was in total fear of the weight gain associated with it, so I stopped it
thanks for listening. I hope all is well with you
namaste,
lilith
> Lilith as a matter of fact my first massage with her was at my pdoc's at the time. He believed in a lot of alternative things massage being one. He wanted his patients relaxed before their appointments. He did away with them as he was bilking the insurance companies (another story) but she set up practice with another therapist in town. At the time I saw her her fees were $50/hr. Recently had one here (NC she's in too) and the price was $95/hr. Of course insurance doesn't pay . It only did when this pdoc used it. He addicted me to high doses of benzos. I'm paying for that now. My Oldest Daughter is in Stuart what part of the State are you in? She's financially doing very well a VP of a trust company. And I might add if I didn't in one of my posts to you above that when I broke my arm took my first percocet and l at bedtime for the pain. I was laughing at times. So I know it works for depression. Fat deal of ever getting on it. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on December 14, 2006, at 19:35:08
In reply to Re: UPDATE - sorry it's so LONG » Phillipa, posted by liliths on December 14, 2006, at 7:39:30
Thanks yes I'm proud of my Daughter but wish I was a better Mother as this anxiety/depression has made me even afraid of my children don't ask why don't know. But he gave me the pdoc large doses of xanax, chloral hydrate, sometimes ativan. And would tell me I was taking a baby dose and chloral hydrarte was used with old people and babies. What he didn't say was it was used in some surgeries. I found out it's a substitute for alchohol and before the ch I was drinking 4-6 beers a night with .5xanax but working and doing a great job and felt good all the time.
The massage therapist did with me anyway naked massage with sheets. Very careful not to expose body parts. She was good. I guess it was Swedish massage never asked. I wish that pdoc had stayed the way he was but he decided when he passed his psych boards he no longet wanted to do talk therapy. And If I knew of a med I be taking it myself. But if you need klonopin who cares? Love Phillipa
Posted by liliths on December 15, 2006, at 11:29:07
In reply to Re: UPDATE - sorry it's so LONG » liliths, posted by Phillipa on December 14, 2006, at 19:35:08
hi phillipa
sorry you had to go through that - it certainly doesn't sound like much fun. Scary isn't it to think how initially trusting we all are? Bet you'd do it differently now :)
when you say you're afraid of your children, I'm not sure what you mean. How they feel about you? whether they judge you?
regardless, I know, in some ways, I'm afraid of everybody these days... particularly anyone I care about as they have such potential to hurt me... I am so stressed these days it doesn't take much
be well and take care of yourself... you're worth it! :)
namaste,
lilith> Thanks yes I'm proud of my Daughter but wish I was a better Mother as this anxiety/depression has made me even afraid of my children don't ask why don't know. But he gave me the pdoc large doses of xanax, chloral hydrate, sometimes ativan. And would tell me I was taking a baby dose and chloral hydrarte was used with old people and babies. What he didn't say was it was used in some surgeries. I found out it's a substitute for alchohol and before the ch I was drinking 4-6 beers a night with .5xanax but working and doing a great job and felt good all the time.
>
> The massage therapist did with me anyway naked massage with sheets. Very careful not to expose body parts. She was good. I guess it was Swedish massage never asked. I wish that pdoc had stayed the way he was but he decided when he passed his psych boards he no longet wanted to do talk therapy. And If I knew of a med I be taking it myself. But if you need klonopin who cares? Love Phillipa
Posted by liliths on December 21, 2006, at 8:41:28
In reply to UPDATE, posted by liliths on December 7, 2006, at 12:11:12
I am enclosing the letter I hope to send to the Board on my behalf. As a quick update, my psychiatrist is so angry at what they are doing that his letter is totally unusable! It makes me sound insane, his timeline is off due to his attempts to defend his position, he talks about my suicide ideation as well as an 'attempt' which was not recorded, as it was a regression and I did very little harm. Though it is not legally even listed, he states I was hospitalized for cutting my wrists and overdosing. Of course, he makes it sound like all these terrible things were before he changed my meds, which is simply not true. additionally he scares the hell out of them by predicting 'dire consequences' to me if they take me off 'his' meds
hell, when I read that letter, I wouldn't give that person a license!!! That means I probably shouldn't submit anything from my therapist, who wrote a short, succinct letter on my behalf, because I fear that may cause them to contact my psychiatrist and that would be my undoing!!! and I had to pay the man $200 for the pleasure! sheesh!
my 'interveiw' is jan 17th but I need to send them stuff by tomorrow if I want it included on the CD they burn of each case, or if I get something to them by middle of next week, they will just print it and add it to my file...but they've told me that even overnight mail will take her approx 3 days to receive since it goes through all these channels... gotta love the government! LOL
here's the letter.. with the name's XXX
please, if you have any recommendations, feel free to make them
namaste,
lilithOK... I seem to have to send it separately as it keeps overwriting the entire post... go figure
Posted by liliths on December 21, 2006, at 8:48:16
In reply to UPDATE, posted by liliths on December 7, 2006, at 12:11:12
here's the letter ... thank you!
====================================
I am writing this letter in response to the recommendations made by PRN concerning my application for licensure as a Massage Therapist. One of the first things we are taught as students of Massage Therapy is not to do “cookie cutter” massages. We are taught to see every client as an individual and to tailor our treatment based on his or her needs.It is my opinion that PRN has failed to do that in my case.
The evaluating psychiatrist, XXXdoc1, states: “It is this examiner’s opinion that XXXme is able to practice her profession with reasonable skill and safety.”
He just doesn’t like my medication regimen. But the regimen is working, and his suggestions were all tried years ago. I have been working with my psychiatrist for 5 years. We did not arrive at this combination lightly. There is a tremendous amount of data supporting my treatment. I am including some documents to help address what may be of concern to the Board.
In the preface of his evaluation, XXXdoc1 also states: “I am not seeing her for treatment purposes”. To my knowledge, that should mean he is not in a position to decide my treatment. He is certainly allowed his personal opinions but that should have no bearing on my prescribing doctor’s ability to make his own decisions.
It seems to be a contradiction that after stating he was NOT seeing me for treatment purposes, and therefore had no knowledge of my background medications, he then assumes the right to make official prescription recommendations. In coming to the conclusion that I am safe and stable on this regimen, wanting to change it after making that determination is tantamount to stating, “Gee, her medication regimen is working, I think we should play around with it and see what happens”.
He states that on my current regimen, my depression is in remission. Why then question its efficacy?
XXXdoc2, in turn, recommended to the Board I change my medication and be subjected to random drug tests as conditions for receiving a license. He writes that my regimen is “not a recognized treatment for depression”. While it may not be a first choice, it is a viable and prescribed solution for treating Treatment Resistant Depression, particularly when used to augment existing anti-depressants. And as I am NOT a substance abuser, I find XXXdoc2’s recommendation for urinalysis excessive.
As I understand the law, XXXdoc2 may be overstepping his bounds in attempting to dictate what my medical care ought to be. I was told that doctors are not supposed to be allowed to determine what another physician prescribes, as long as the treatment is reasonable. And mine meets the criteria.
I am a XXXme(embarrassed of age:) year old woman who graduated with High Honors from a 750 hr Community College Program with a 3.95 GPA and was additionally the recipient of a Student Achievement Award. I passed the National Certification Boards, scoring “High” in all content areas. As a student, I also studied Craniosacral Therapy I with the Upledger Institute, as well as Myofascial Mobilization with Barnes, and I was the only student to do so. Is this the performance of someone whose medication regimen should be tampered with?
I recognize that my regimen may carry a lot of fear when not understood in context. The potential for abuse is no different than it is for many medications used. Just as there are people whose disorders cause them to go off their medications when they feel better from them, there are also those who think “if one is good, two will be better”, despite evidence to the contrary. I have never experienced any desire to up my dose, nor have I ever experienced any ‘withdrawal’ when I have tapered off, besides the return of my depression.
The most important part of any treatment remains in working closely with one’s prescribing physician. I see my psychiatrist every 3 months, as well as any time I have questions or concerns. He is extremely accessible to me, as is my therapist, who I have been working with for 10 years.
I am already a Certified Personal Trainer and Post Rehabilitation Specialist. I was encouraged to take a preliminary course to be eligible to join our local Sports Massage Team once I was licensed. I also had a potential opportunity to work with Hurricane Katrina survivors, as Louisiana has very good reciprocity laws. I have had to watch these opportunities come and go. I’ve also just learned that should the Board decide I am to be monitored, my license will be ‘red-flagged’ as conditional. And though the reasons may remain confidential, we all know the potential for discrimination. I may find myself unemployable.
I was told I would not be discriminated against for being treated for depression, but I have been. I am an honest person. It never occurred to me that I would be shamed and treated like a criminal for trying to manage the issue of chronic depression in my life. Never mind the expense, much less the heartache; I feel that PRN has made this an unnecessarily traumatic experience for me.
I thoroughly understand the Massage Review Board and the Dept. of Health’s need to be assured that it is issuing licenses to people who are safe. I am however, questioning their relying solely on PRN to tell them who IS safe, as it could be argued, based on my own experience, that PRN has not distinguished adequately between the different types of people the Board sends them to assess.
I am not the drug addict, the sex offender, or the person being brought up on criminal charges.
I am simply one of the millions of people (including many physicians), who are being treated for chemical imbalances like ADD, anxiety, and depression and ARE using the very medications PRN would deny me. I feel that my records should count for something. That I have long-standing medical and therapeutic relationships as well as good, stable support in my life should speak for me as well, and XXXdoc1 mentions all of these things in his evaluation.
Once again, the first statement of XXXdoc1 Conclusions/Recommendations states:
1. “It is this examiner’s opinion that XXXme is able to practice her profession with reasonable skill and safety.”Massage is a win-win for me. I am a gifted therapist and my self-care soars when I am practicing. I work at remaining grounded and centered in order to be able to best participate in the facilitation of the healing of others. It is good for me and I am good for the people I work on.
As practicing Massage Therapists, I would hope this Board would understand what I am saying and how I feel. And since they are NOT Massage Therapists, I also understand how easy it may be for PRN to lose sight of this larger issue. I must reiterate that there is a HUGE difference between the person you send to PRN to evaluate simply because they are on anti-depressants, and those who have had serious charges leveled against them.
Being a Massage Therapist matters to me. It has taken me a long time to find a medication regimen that works. Everything reflects that I have. The evaluating psychiatrist has confirmed it. I see no reason to tamper with something that isn’t broken.
I sincerely hope someone looks into the broader issues concerning PRN’s actions and that in the future there are better considerations for those who come after me. As it exists now, I fear PRN makes a very good case for ‘omission’ on one’s application. That IS unconscionable and would be a travesty of justice.
Thank you for your time.
==========================any and all feedback would be appreciated
namaste,
lilith
Posted by happykat on December 30, 2006, at 18:13:45
In reply to Re: UPDATE - LONG - PT2 - feedback please, posted by liliths on December 21, 2006, at 8:48:16
lilliths,
I'm just now getting caught up on everything that has been going on with you. I hope you are doing well and that things are working out. This really has been so unfair to you! :(
I like your letter alot better than what you said your pdoc wrote. Did you ever find an atty? Let me know how you're doing.
Regards,
happykat :)
Posted by Phillipa on December 30, 2006, at 20:37:27
In reply to Re: UPDATE - LONG - PT2 - feedback please, posted by liliths on December 21, 2006, at 8:48:16
Lilith was away. Excellent letter. Love Phillipa
Posted by happykat on January 1, 2007, at 22:16:53
In reply to Re: UPDATE - LONG - PT2 - feedback please » liliths, posted by Phillipa on December 30, 2006, at 20:37:27
Thanks Phillipa! I've been wondering how she's doing.
Regards,
happykat :)
Posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2007, at 22:46:37
In reply to Re: UPDATE - LONG - PT2 - feedback please » Phillipa, posted by happykat on January 1, 2007, at 22:16:53
I don't remember her telling me she was away. I think I meant and typed it wrong that I was away during Christmas was in a hurry while going through the over 220 posts when I got home. Sorry I don't know what is going on now. Love Phillipa
Posted by happykat on January 2, 2007, at 8:38:30
In reply to Re: UPDATE - LONG - PT2 - feedback please » happykat, posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2007, at 22:46:37
Oh, sorry. Sometimes I'm a bit of an airhead. Thanks for letting me know. Hope you had a good Christmas.
Regards,
happykat
Posted by liliths on January 3, 2007, at 8:32:38
In reply to Re: UPDATE - LONG - PT2 - feedback please, posted by happykat on December 30, 2006, at 18:13:45
hi happykat
(and boy do I wish I were a happy kat! :)
thank you so much for checking in on me... to be honest, I'm barely hanging on by a thread these days... haven't been able to post even when I've had something to say
2 weeks left till my 'trial' and life's just a ticking time bomb. If they contact my pdoc and he 'reveals' his rantings, I am in BIG trouble. His 'version' of the events in 2004 are totally wrong and I had consulted my therapist before my evaluation to determine what I was legally obligated to disclose about it.
What I had was a regression... and in that regressed state, I did try to kill myself. But in that state, all I did was take a few sleeping pills and put a plastic bag over my head. I didn't take enough pills to O.D. - I wasn't trying to - I really believed if I could just fall asleep, I'd suffocate. It was the thinking of an 8 year old. I have also been a 'cutter' and I was NOT attempting to kill myself by 'cutting my wrists', but simply acting out. I went to the emergency room of my own volition - actually on the urging of a friend who was concerned I might need stitches. They didn't bother to do any and all they gave me was some charcoal to push the sleeping pills out of my system faster. I was never admitted into the hospital. Yes, they placed me in one of those 'holding facilities' (quite far from the hospital) until I could speak to a psychologist in the morning (since it was night), who then immediately released me and I was there for less than 12 hours - much less. According to my therapist, this did not meet the criteria for 'being hospitalized' or held - there was no Baker Act - it wasn't a 'serious' attempt but the state of a confused child and I was under no obligation to report it in my evaluation. I went into intensive therapy to deal with it
But my pdoc's version makes it and me sound VERY dangerous and if he's allowed to rant about it to PRN or to the board, one of the very first things I'll be hit with was my ommision of this in my evaluation and I'll have to defend myself... and ultimately, the end result will be that it will scare the board regardless of what I say and I could, in fact, be denied a license because of it
to have the very doctor you expected to back you up, behave so irrationally is a heinous experience... to say I feel betrayed is an understatement. To think he could lose perspective of the big picture over his 'indignation' of PRN tampering with his prescribing rights simply makes no sense. How could he possibly think what he wrote would help make his case? His own office staff admitted to me they were shocked and advised me not to use the letter, as it was so inflammatory
sorry for ranting - I feel like the bug in kafka's 'metamorphisis'
thank you for your kind words about my letter. I did my best to make my case and backed it up with abstracts, articles etc.
that said, best case scenario (meaning my pdoc's ranting is never brought to light) is still most likely that the board will go with PRN's recommendations... if only to cover their *sses
and still leaves me with a 'conditional' red-flagged license and numerous 'surprise' drug tests - at my own expense of course!!
though the reason for being conditional is confidential, I think I'd almost be better off if it weren't. Really, who's going to think it's because I'm being treated for depression? Most likely they will assume either some criminal activity or a substance abuse problem.
I haven't been able to find an atty even remotely interested or willing to take this on as a case. Most simply don't even understand it, as it is not what they usually deal with as employent discrimination. I was, however, advised to not pursue it until my board reveiw was over. But all preliminary calls yeilded a big fat zero. I can't afford an atty and there wasn't one in sight that thought there was anything they could do. Whether PRN is bigger in this state than I knew, that maybe they're a big dog nobody wants to take on, IS a possibility
in the meantime, I've cut my dose of hydrocodone by half. Though I'm sure it has exacerbated my depression, truthfully, going back up on it now isn't going to fix anything. This is one of those experiences medication just can't fix. External circumstances that render me helpless and shamed carry too much weight
I just want to die. And PLEASE, before you become concerned, I have wanted to die for so long, that even my current obsession with it is most likely just my need to feel in control of a life gone wrong. Add to that my responsibility to my aging cat, and I'm not going anywhere soon.
as usual, I apologize for going on so... I guess I let the genie out of the bottle
thanks again for checking on me
how have you been?
Hope all is well in your world!!!!
and I do love your name :)namaste,
lilith> lilliths,
>
> I'm just now getting caught up on everything that has been going on with you. I hope you are doing well and that things are working out. This really has been so unfair to you! :(
>
> I like your letter alot better than what you said your pdoc wrote. Did you ever find an atty? Let me know how you're doing.
>
> Regards,
> happykat :)
Posted by liliths on January 3, 2007, at 8:36:39
In reply to Re: UPDATE - LONG - PT2 - feedback please » happykat, posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2007, at 22:46:37
hi Phillipa,
hope you had a great holiday. I wrote a mammoth email of the various goings on to happykat, in case you're interested.
but I must warn you, it isn't fun reading.
I hate life, I hate me
I've been unable to maintain contact on this board even when I've wanted to... just shutting down
so in effect, I guess I am away
hope all is going well for you!!
220 posts!! oh my!! LOL
you are a dear to have even replied here - thank you :)
namaste,
lilith> I don't remember her telling me she was away. I think I meant and typed it wrong that I was away during Christmas was in a hurry while going through the over 220 posts when I got home. Sorry I don't know what is going on now. Love Phillipa
Posted by happykat on January 4, 2007, at 12:53:18
In reply to Re: UPDATE - LONG - PT2 - feedback please » happykat, posted by liliths on January 3, 2007, at 8:32:38
(((((((((((((((lilliths)))))))))))))))))
I'm sorry to hear that things aren't going well. I really feel bad that you've been put in this situation. But look on the bright side, maybe the hearing will go better than you think! :)
Your post really struck a chord with me. I have had a similar experience only I got locked up. I have always omitted it on applications too. I figure its nobody else's d*mn business. Fortunately I'm in a position where I don't have to worry about it too much, at least at the moment.
I'll be hoping, praying and begging the universe to guide the board to do the right thing and give you your license without conditions over the next two weeks.
I definitely agree with you and his office staff that all your pdoc's going to do at this point is raise more questions and red flags for the board. He needs to stay out of it, if at all possible, for now.
BTW, it's great that you've cut back on the hydrocodone. That's good prep in case they use PRN's recommendations. Although it SUCKS that you are being forced to abandon a clinically prescribed regimen of meds that work for you. :(
Happykat loves cat people! :) How old and what is your cat's name?
Feel better. Stay safe.
Regards,
happykat :)
Posted by liliths on January 4, 2007, at 13:51:11
In reply to (((((((((((( lilliths ))))))))))))))), posted by happykat on January 4, 2007, at 12:53:18
oh you sweet sweet wonderful gift!!
thank you so much for your post. You can't imagine how much it means to read your words
let's see... I had 2 oriental shorthair siblings, born may 3, 1990. We lost daphne on june 1st and hannah is my survivor. She lives on my love. I almost lost her twice since her sister went. One of the only good things to come from my being such a shut-in is the attention I can give hannah. It's funny, people give up their lives to take care of ailing parents, spouses, friends when it's necessary. Nobody says it's fun. But the alternative is worse. So yes, to a major degree I am a prisoner - can't go away - this interminable period would have been much easier to bear had I been able to visit friends & places I've been missing. I'm even worried about having to go for the hearing as it will mean over 24 hours. Hannah's been able to handle overnight's before but it's been a few months and since I've sunk so low, she's become really used to having me at her beck and call.
the 3 of us were as 3 sisters :) I still miss daphne and I know hannah does too. She still sometimes gets confused and starts looking for her and accusingly looks at me as if to say "well? where IS she?" It's not hard to easily cry because we simply miss her. What I was saying earlier is that most people don't get my commitment to care for her at all.
the main photo on the opening page of my website is of hannah and at the bottom there's a small photo in memoriam of daphne
here's the link:
http://home.cfl.rr.com/lilith/I hope you enjoy the site anyway... it'll certainly tell you a lot about me and I'm going to babblemail you a link to a secret page - can only be gotten to from the various webrings it's a part of or if I 'invite' you in - I just sent it - I hope your babblemail is on LOL
I keep it secret because, as you said, some things are nobody's business. But I'm not ashamed to share it with you. Actually I started to just post it here but then thought I might feel too exposed. You can get back to the rest of the site from there - you just can't get 'to' it LOL though you have the link to the main site now anyway
and feel free to sign my dreambook if you are so inclined... just remember it's public LOL
Yes, that's exactly why I tapered the dose down. I even considered going off it but have since decided it's not necessary and would be punitive. I actually would like to go off of as many meds as possible. If this experience taught me anything, it taught me that by taking part in society's attempts to so-call 'heal' it's wounded, all I've really done is give up many of my rights as a person. I honestly believe it's best to fly as far under the radar as possible now. I've grown to hate what this country is turning into. Have even considered leaving the country but that's certainly a long way off from happening.
I'm also worried about the long term effects of being on some of these meds. Plan to post a thread asking about that as well as what I might supplement with to help and if there is even the possibility of irreparable damage. If I have to I'll stay on whatever I 'need' to
I'm sorry you had a similar experience. Was it a regression as well? You can babblemail me about it, if you prefer or you can simply tell me you'd rather not discuss it. I'll understand - TOTALLY :))
lilith loves cat people too! She has a feline nature inside her :)
tell me about happykat?
thanks again most blessed happykat!
namaste,
lilith> (((((((((((((((lilliths)))))))))))))))))
>
> I'm sorry to hear that things aren't going well. I really feel bad that you've been put in this situation. But look on the bright side, maybe the hearing will go better than you think! :)
>
> Your post really struck a chord with me. I have had a similar experience only I got locked up. I have always omitted it on applications too. I figure its nobody else's d*mn business. Fortunately I'm in a position where I don't have to worry about it too much, at least at the moment.
>
> I'll be hoping, praying and begging the universe to guide the board to do the right thing and give you your license without conditions over the next two weeks.
>
> I definitely agree with you and his office staff that all your pdoc's going to do at this point is raise more questions and red flags for the board. He needs to stay out of it, if at all possible, for now.
>
> BTW, it's great that you've cut back on the hydrocodone. That's good prep in case they use PRN's recommendations. Although it SUCKS that you are being forced to abandon a clinically prescribed regimen of meds that work for you. :(
>
> Happykat loves cat people! :) How old and what is your cat's name?
>
> Feel better. Stay safe.
> Regards,
> happykat :)
>
>
Posted by happykat on January 5, 2007, at 12:53:29
In reply to Re: (((((((((((( lilliths ))))))))))))))) » happykat, posted by liliths on January 4, 2007, at 13:51:11
Hey liliths,
I got your babblemail and sent you a babblemail. Just want to make sure you got it. :)
Thanks,
happykat :)
Posted by mell on January 17, 2007, at 10:06:48
In reply to Re: (((((((((((( lilliths ))))))))))))))) » happykat, posted by liliths on January 4, 2007, at 13:51:11
Lilith,
Just sending you good wishes for all you are facing this week. I am sure hoping things are going your way! Take good care of yourself.
Mell
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