![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 42. Go back in thread:
Posted by Damos on December 27, 2005, at 16:25:22
In reply to Re: sorry about that, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 15:47:12
No need to apologise Alex - none at all. Sorry Christmas sucks so big for you. Even sorrier that it brings back so much stuff and just adds new hurts.
These posts just break my heart in so many ways. You're family to me Alex, and I hope you know how much you're loved and cared for. Wish I could wave a magic wand and make it better, I really do.
I'll be holding you close in my heart and sending lots of good thoughts to help you through the 'mum' thing.
((((((((((Alex))))))))))
Posted by Poet on December 27, 2005, at 16:42:36
In reply to Re: bah humbug » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 15:56:25
> at least next year it will just be
> 'aren't you going home for christmas'
> 'nope'
> 'why not'
> 'i'm not that close to my family'
> and that will be that.I think you should say *I'm staying home for Christmas- staying right here.* Where you will be is your home and it'll be a happy one.
Poet
Posted by Tamar on December 27, 2005, at 20:49:09
In reply to Re: bah humbug » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 15:56:25
(((((Alex)))))
I think I’m a bit older than you. And the lesson I’m learning now is: life is short. Too short to do *anything* out of obligation. I know it’s not so easy when you’re still somewhat dependent on your family. But maybe you can suck it up a bit more easily if you promise yourself that as soon as you are independent you can decide never to see them again at Christmas.
I get on very well with my family and nevertheless Christmas is stressful. This year I decided that because of my depression I wasn’t going to go anywhere or invite anyone. I spent the whole day in my pyjamas. So did my kids. I don’t know why my husband got dressed… I cooked a turkey (still in my pyjamas) and it was delicious. Every room is littered with wrapping paper and toys. I don’t give a damn. (Part of that is because of my mother-in-law’s accident, but still…)
I can’t begin to describe the sense of freedom I felt in doing Christmas without obligations. I highly recommend it. You might not manage it next year or the year after… But maybe the year after that? Just two or three more Christmases to get through and then you’re free.
You are doing everything right to live your life on your own terms. Education will get you where you want to go. You are clearly a bright and interesting woman and you have a great deal to offer. You can leave the crap behind you. Keep your eyes on the prize!
Tamar
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2005, at 21:16:04
In reply to Re: bah humbug » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on December 27, 2005, at 20:49:09
Alex next year you will be in a different country. Yeah! Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 27, 2005, at 23:56:11
In reply to Re: sorry about that, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 15:47:12
No Sorries! No SORRIES!
Nuh UH..
It's crap, and it makes you feel like s*it, and it's confusing, and no matter how old you are
it can still happen. I know there are a lot of people, and you will be one I'm sure, who will eventually be able to realize that it's their crap, and they are not a reflection of how other people feel. But damnit it hurts.I'm older than you are and when I had to stay with my mom a couple of years ago, during an excruciating depression, and after fleeing my abusive boyfriend, she promised that she would stay with me no matter how long it took for me to get better.
She invited *me* to stay.
The day I got out of the hospital psych ward, after being at her house for four weeks, and in the ward for a couple of days, she picked me up and told me she preferred being alone and that I had to find somewhere else to go. I never acted terrible or anything, all I did was sleep and cry (in my room)
I still sting from that. It sucks Alex.
When I found a place to stay, I was literally afraid to come out of my room, or make any noise.
I wanted to be invisible because I thought everyone must feel like herI didn't mean to make that about me at all, I was just sort of trying to let you know that I know how deeply it can affect you, and you *need* to talk about it to get perspective from people who aren't them. I think many of us here can relate.
And I will definitely miss you when you are away from Babble.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 28, 2005, at 3:50:08
In reply to Re: sorry about that, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 15:47:12
I'm so sorry, alexandra. Holidays are "supposed to be" about warm and loving times with those who you care about and who care about you.
Babblers care about you. You can think of us as your chosen family if you wish.
Take care, cousin alex. And happy new year. May it bring you all the joy and dreams and successes you richly deserve.
gg
Posted by lynn971 on December 28, 2005, at 15:28:26
In reply to Re: sorry about that » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on December 28, 2005, at 3:50:08
I hope that your new year is much better than your Christmas was.
Your friend,
Lynn
Posted by alexandra_k on December 28, 2005, at 22:54:51
In reply to Re: sorry about that » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on December 27, 2005, at 23:56:11
> No Sorries! No SORRIES!
>
> Nuh UH..
hey. yeah. i understand... its hard because you just want them to be nice and seems they can only manage it for a while... then thats it. i went to stay with father and step-mother for a bit when i was 13 and i tried to hide in my room. 'cause i knew they didn't want me there and so i just tried to make myself as small and as quiet as possible. so they wouldn't notice i was there. so i wouldn't be a bother.but...
they sent me back to my mother anyway. and in so many ways... that was worse than when he left when i was a kid. because then i really realised that he never would make things better. and up until then... i thought he loved me. i guess i just had to believe it.
i'm sorry gabbi.
((((((gabbi))))))))
i'm sorry i haven't responded to your babblemail yet either.sometimes...
we just need to put it away and struggle on...
theres nothing to be done.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 28, 2005, at 22:57:52
In reply to Re: sorry about that, posted by lynn971 on December 28, 2005, at 15:28:26
i think it is a triggering time of year.
i don't think it was so bad last year.
bad.
but not this bad.
i think this one is hard because they want to spend time with me.
i don't understand that.
why do they want to spend time with me?
do they enjoy this?
i don't understand.
Posted by LegWarmers on December 28, 2005, at 23:42:19
In reply to Re: sorry about that, posted by alexandra_k on December 28, 2005, at 22:57:52
I don't think they enjoy making you feel bad, Im sure they don't. I think that maybe they forget how hard you had it, or they don't even understand how hard you had it :(
Sounds like they want to start a new relationship with you but they can't really undo the past and they don't seem to understand that.
Posted by JenStar on December 29, 2005, at 0:42:15
In reply to bah humbug, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 4:07:28
oh, my. It sounds like you really do hate the holidays this time of year. For you, I'm glad they're over. Does the New Year bring you joy and feeling of refreshment? I hope so!
JenStar
Posted by alexandra_k on December 29, 2005, at 1:00:14
In reply to Re: sorry about that, posted by LegWarmers on December 28, 2005, at 23:42:19
i don't know :-(
it isn't just past stuff.
it is present stuff... the stuff that happens in the present. and that is what gets me thinking about all the stuff in the past.
but yeah...
my stepmother is insecure.
that is the problem.
thats why she is always trying to prove she is better than
and when i say something or make a suggestion or express an opinion that is different from hers
she takes it as a personal criticism and gets all defensive.
which involves her attacking mei dunno what the movie thing was about...
dunno.
the thing that drives me the craziest is her telling me to 'get your fingers out of your mouth' or to 'stop biting your nails'. i said 'you know i have been biting them for a long time and i think i probably always will' but that didn't seem to work. i really want her to stop with that. i have heard it ever since i was about four years old and it makes me feel SO F*CKING MAD on the inside. they are my hands. it isn't hurting you. i hate it when people say that too me. that is how i prevent myself from crying.
but no, one should aim for perfect nails...
(why? its harder to type and i can't zip a zipper if they are too long besides which the thought of dirt under my nails FREAKS ME OUT)
i don't know...
Posted by alexandra_k on December 29, 2005, at 1:04:26
In reply to Re: bah humbug » alexandra_k, posted by JenStar on December 29, 2005, at 0:42:15
mid jan through march is cool.
still on holiday (or in to summer school)
leisurely working
that is pretty cool :-)
but it does get hot...
nah. i hate the traditional holidays.
birthdays are worse in a sense (would you believe) but i usually manage to avoid the drama by not telling anyone and managing to forget the day myself.
:-)
trouble with christmas...
is you can't forget because everything is shut and people do insist on wishing you a happy one etc.
(i do kind of appreciate that lots of people like this time of year... i do appreciate that people mean well...)
i do not f*cking well appreciate being locked out of the office on christmas day and easter monday. they are the only two days of the year that they lock everybody out. no building access. but gee did people look funny at me when i griped about that last year...
Posted by LegWarmers on December 29, 2005, at 1:23:40
In reply to Re: sorry about that » LegWarmers, posted by alexandra_k on December 29, 2005, at 1:00:14
> i don't know :-(
>
> it isn't just past stuff.
>
> it is present stuff... the stuff that happens in the present. and that is what gets me thinking about all the stuff in the past.
yeah, I understand that.
> but yeah...
>
> my stepmother is insecure.
ah, thats a problem> that is the problem.
> thats why she is always trying to prove she is better than
> and when i say something or make a suggestion or express an opinion that is different from hers
> she takes it as a personal criticism and gets all defensive.
> which involves her attacking meah, so she feels inadequate to you. Its sad when people feel the need to put others down to build themselves up.
>
> i dunno what the movie thing was about...
>
> dunno.
>That was really mean, im glad your stepsister is nice. sounds like she is afraid of something, letting you in ...i dunno either
> the thing that drives me the craziest is her telling me to 'get your fingers out of your mouth' or to 'stop biting your nails'. i said 'you know i have been biting them for a long time and i think i probably always will' but that didn't seem to work. i really want her to stop with that. i have heard it ever since i was about four years old and it makes me feel SO F*CKING MAD on the inside. they are my hands. it isn't hurting you. i hate it when people say that too me. that is how i prevent myself from crying.
>
:( Its nobodies business! I hate when people say stuff like that. its like, Im biting them because Im in your company!!
> but no, one should aim for perfect nails...
>It is what makes a person whole ;)
> (why? its harder to type and i can't zip a zipper if they are too long besides which the thought of dirt under my nails FREAKS ME OUT)
>
> i don't know...
>nails are just a nusense!!
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 29, 2005, at 2:06:08
In reply to Re: sorry about that » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on December 28, 2005, at 22:54:51
>> > Nuh UH..
> hey. yeah. i understand... its hard because you just want them to be nice and seems they can only manage it for a while... then thats it. i went to stay with father and step-mother for a bit when i was 13 and i tried to hide in my room. 'cause i knew they didn't want me there and so i just tried to make myself as small and as quiet as possible. so they wouldn't notice i was there. so i wouldn't be a bother.
>
> but...
>
> they sent me back to my mother anyway. and in so many ways... that was worse than when he left when i was a kid. I'm sorry Alex.
That kind of rejection.. especially when you try so hard to be invisible, or not a bother, it's soul killing, or it can be.because then i really realised that he never would make things better. and up until then... i thought he loved me. i guess i just had to believe it.
that's so terribly sad. I understand that too, I invented stories in my head about my dad defending me from my mom..
And when I was in an abusive relationship (one of many) he'd do something like ask me if I was cold, a basic human courtesy, and I'd take it as a sign of love, of course it wasn't. But your mind has a way of trying desperately to find what it needs.
And don't worry about not responding to my babblemail : )
I have some reading of yours to catch up on.
I had a bad time of it, right after you gave it to me. Everything is okay now, but I didn't accomplish much that week.Yeah, I think putting it behind you is the only thing, the problem is it resurfaces in so many other situations..
((Alex))
Posted by alexandra_k on December 29, 2005, at 3:03:23
In reply to Re: sorry about that » alexandra_k, posted by LegWarmers on December 29, 2005, at 1:23:40
hey. i'm sorry, i haven't responded to your babblemail either.
:-(
i have been really very self absorbed.
:-(but...
i shall come right soon.
i'm sure...
this too shall pass...
and i'll be back to 'usual self'
whatever wherever whomever that is...> ah, so she feels inadequate to you.
i think that is it. i guess... it would explain the attacking. and putting down. etc. and i've noticed... i don't think it is just me. her sister in law too. but then her sister in law... is even worse at that...
thats why having them both together was hard...
and then dad brings me into it and its supposed to be 'one up' for their household in some respect or other...
and i hate that b*llshit.
> Its sad when people feel the need to put others down to build themselves up.
yeah. its sad because... it just leads to bad feelings all around. whereas... if they stopped doing it everyone would feel a lot happier. it is sad that they don't realise that. i... i don't know that i can say anything... anything that wouldn't be perceived as criticism. anything that they could understand about that. i don't know what i could say... i said to her once 'that wasn't intended as criticism' when i suggested her taking a lead to put their dog on when they wanted to take it inside other peoples houses. that way... he won't run around and get into so much mischief. and (i didn't say this) she wouldn't need to interrupt the conversation every couple minutes to scream at the dog (which is insane given that they hear better than we do).
but she got most upset about that. kept saying 'he was really good there for a while'. and i didn't say... that was because when he was sitting by me and i was petting him... i had my hand through his collar. they can get used to leads and feel more 'secure'. also... a light tug is better than screaming at them. and they learn what they are supposed to do (ie lie down and be quiet). just for the time it takes to have a cup of coffee... i mean we are talking 17kg's of dog here... trying to jump up on peoples laps etc... and they don't seem to appreciate that while he is cute and all other people aren't so attached to them as they are and other people aren't so happy to have him as the sole focus of attention as they are...
> sounds like she is afraid of something
used to be ashamed. when i was really sick. and the medication made me rather large there for a while. and... i think i am a symbol of my mother. she is afraid i'm like my mother :-( but so am i :-( i get the lectures about the family heirlooms because that is the sort of thing my mother might be inclined to do... to contest the will. i understand... i would never try and get those... they have been in her family handed down through the generations for a long time now. and her family is very much into doing their family tree etc and that kind of thing is really very important to them. they are for her kids i understand that... what i find hard is that she feels the need to go on about that... i find it insulting that she actually thinks i'd try and get them from her kids.
:-(
> its like, Im biting them because Im in your company!!
yeah.
> > but no, one should aim for perfect nails...
> It is what makes a person whole ;)
:-)
heh heh.
thanks for cheering me up :-)(I do like the look of nails on OTHER people, i just don't like the feel of them on myself)
Posted by alexandra_k on December 29, 2005, at 3:05:27
In reply to Re: sorry about that » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on December 29, 2005, at 2:06:08
hey.
yeah... it is hard.
if you try and run from it...
i think it only makes it worse...
in the sense that it will resurface in ways you are unaware of.
but...
what to do, what to do.i don't know.
i'm sorry :-(
Posted by Maynerd on December 29, 2005, at 4:00:52
In reply to Re: bah humbug » alexandra_k, posted by ClearSkies on December 27, 2005, at 6:31:56
Wow, sounds like you enjoy this holiday season about as much as I do. It has been sad watching what perhaps started out loving and good turn slowly commercial and yukky. I watched in the mall as a girl told her friend that she was going to buy a cheap gift for another so he would have to buy something for her. I had to get away, swearing that I will NEVER become trapped again. No more buying cr*p gifts for people who don't really want them, no more feasts that goes mostly to waste, no more buying into the hysterics of the whole pathetic joke. I mean, we are really celebrating a pagan winter celebration that has Jesus' name attached, not his true birth day (or month for that matter). Sorry if I threatened anyones religious beliefs but I speak the ugly truth; Yeshua was born sometime in Aug/Sept. What gift would be truly appropriate for the Messiah of Peace's birthday anytways? an I-pod and a new dvd, or the gift of peace and love to those we don't even know? I see i-pods on many people and daily headlines filled with hate and violence, I see very little compassion and patient understanding.
Posted by AuntieMel on December 29, 2005, at 11:11:37
In reply to Re: sorry about that, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 15:47:12
"have already been informed about how much of the ornaments etc will be going to stepdaughter to 'keep them in the family' and when i do get any money off them i always have to ask (and i do this only when in dire need) but father is so oblivious he says things like 'we don't mind helping you out because we gave step-sister 6 times that amount just last week' and it has always been like that....
i don't have a problem with stepsisteri have a problem with the wicked witch of the west (who is lovely to her own children don't get me wrong)
and my father the gutless wonder"
----------------------
Good Gawd, this sounds familiar! Down to who gets which piece of crystal. (They were all tagged and numbered, too, so there wouldn't be any mixups)
Having to borrow money from them when they do all they can do to help "Poor Glen" <honest, for the longest time I thought his first name was "Poor"> down the street 'cause his parents don't want to.
Gag!
I quit playing that game a long time ago, became pleasant, but uninvolved. Quit going there for holidays. The whole bit.
He died, I don't talk to her, and I *still* have a house full of things that need dusting.
You can do it, too.
------------------
Now for the bit of lecture. Remember how you always say that a person "chooses" how they react to a post? In a lot of ways the same applies to family. Give it a shot and "choose" to refuse to let them get under your skin.
Posted by Damos on December 29, 2005, at 15:10:57
In reply to Re: sorry about that, posted by alexandra_k on December 28, 2005, at 22:57:52
> i think it is a triggering time of year.
>
> i don't think it was so bad last year.
>
> bad.
>
> but not this bad.
>
> i think this one is hard because they want to spend time with me.
>
> i don't understand that.
>
> why do they want to spend time with me?
>
> do they enjoy this?
>
> i don't understand.At the very simplest level maybe it's just because you're leaving, and there is a fear that you will never be back, and this triggers 'their' stuff. So they feel the need to try extra hard - which just has the net effect of making things worse. Dunno, maybe.
(((((Alex)))))
Posted by LegWarmers on December 29, 2005, at 17:31:17
In reply to Re: sorry about that » LegWarmers, posted by alexandra_k on December 29, 2005, at 3:03:23
> hey. i'm sorry, i haven't responded to your babblemail either.
> :-(
> i have been really very self absorbed.
> :-(
>can you get on it please ; )
> but...
> i shall come right soon.
> i'm sure...
> this too shall pass...
> and i'll be back to 'usual self'
> whatever wherever whomever that is...Im not myself either, its a hard time, really hard and even when it shouldnt be hard. Just take care of yourself and don't worry about miss manicure
> > ah, so she feels inadequate to you.
>
> i think that is it. i guess... it would explain the attacking. and putting down. etc. and i've noticed... i don't think it is just me. her sister in law too. but then her sister in law... is even worse at that...
>eww
> thats why having them both together was hard...
>
> and then dad brings me into it and its supposed to be 'one up' for their household in some respect or other...
>
> and i hate that b*llshit.Yeah its really superficial and not fun, but if you can...go with it, maybe its too uncomfortable but it might be fun to make them squirm in their shoes.
>
> > Its sad when people feel the need to put others down to build themselves up.
>
> yeah. its sad because... it just leads to bad feelings all around. whereas... if they stopped doing it everyone would feel a lot happier. it is sad that they don't realise that. i... i don't know that i can say anything... anything that wouldn't be perceived as criticism. anything that they could understand about that. i don't know what i could say... i said to her once 'that wasn't intended as criticism' when i suggested her taking a lead to put their dog on when they wanted to take it inside other peoples houses. that way... he won't run around and get into so much mischief. and (i didn't say this) she wouldn't need to interrupt the conversation every couple minutes to scream at the dog (which is insane given that they hear better than we do).
>
> but she got most upset about that. kept saying 'he was really good there for a while'. and i didn't say... that was because when he was sitting by me and i was petting him... i had my hand through his collar. they can get used to leads and feel more 'secure'. also... a light tug is better than screaming at them. and they learn what they are supposed to do (ie lie down and be quiet). just for the time it takes to have a cup of coffee... i mean we are talking 17kg's of dog here... trying to jump up on peoples laps etc... and they don't seem to appreciate that while he is cute and all other people aren't so attached to them as they are and other people aren't so happy to have him as the sole focus of attention as they are...
>you either have to stoop to thier level and play along or watch them and silently laugh at how absolutely silly they are being.
> > sounds like she is afraid of something
>
> used to be ashamed. when i was really sick. and the medication made me rather large there for a while. and... i think i am a symbol of my mother. she is afraid i'm like my mother :-( but so am i :-( i get the lectures about the family heirlooms because that is the sort of thing my mother might be inclined to do... to contest the will. i understand... i would never try and get those... they have been in her family handed down through the generations for a long time now. and her family is very much into doing their family tree etc and that kind of thing is really very important to them. they are for her kids i understand that... what i find hard is that she feels the need to go on about that... i find it insulting that she actually thinks i'd try and get them from her kids.
>
> :-(
>OMG Can you tell her that you don't care about it?
> > its like, Im biting them because Im in your company!!
>
> yeah.
>
> > > but no, one should aim for perfect nails...
>
> > It is what makes a person whole ;)
>
> :-)
> heh heh.
>
> thanks for cheering me up :-)
>anytime : )
> (I do like the look of nails on OTHER people, i just don't like the feel of them on myself)
>I have long nails at the moment and they are just such a pain sometimes *sigh* (don't tell the step mother) But I broke one today opening a car door, Ive booked an emergency manicure first thing tomorrow ; )
Posted by alexandra_k on December 30, 2005, at 20:37:36
In reply to Re: sorry about that » alexandra_k, posted by LegWarmers on December 29, 2005, at 17:31:17
> can you get on it please ; )
will do ;-)
> Im not myself either, its a hard time, really hard and even when it shouldnt be hard. Just take care of yourself...yeah. i should remember that it is a hard time for a lot of people.
> you either have to stoop to thier level and play along or watch them and silently laugh at how absolutely silly they are being.there must be another way... i usually just get all quiet. i don't want to condone it and i don't say anything to support it or whatever. i do come out with comments... but they tend to get ignored. so when the 'better than' conversations start sometimes i can say something like 'it is really terrific that everyone seems to be pretty happy with where they have decided to live' and things like that. but... my comments tend to be ignored / passed over and they have no affect whatsoever on changing the direction of the conversation. when i am just talking with one person... they have more of an impact. but not when there is a whole bunch of them together...
and sometimes...
i think what is so great about babble is that you get to post a post. and in your post you can say what is on your mind without interruption. irl... often you can't do that because people will interrupt. also... hard to figure what to say because of real world time pressures...
> OMG Can you tell her that you don't care about it?yeah. that is probably what i need to do... reassure her.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 30, 2005, at 20:39:20
In reply to Re: sorry about that » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on December 29, 2005, at 15:10:57
> At the very simplest level maybe it's just because you're leaving, and there is a fear that you will never be back, and this triggers 'their' stuff. So they feel the need to try extra hard - which just has the net effect of making things worse. Dunno, maybe.
yeah. maybe. i guess they are trying in their own special unique way :-( but... i have nothing in common with them. we don't have any shared pleasant memories. and we don't seem to be able to 'just be'... and so... it is hard.
but hard for a lot of people i guess :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on December 30, 2005, at 21:07:13
In reply to Re: sorry about that » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on December 29, 2005, at 11:11:37
> Now for the bit of lecture. Remember how you always say that a person "chooses" how they react to a post? In a lot of ways the same applies to family. Give it a shot and "choose" to refuse to let them get under your skin.
yeah.
maybe i should ask them to 'please be civil'?
i try not to react to them.
mostly... i bite my lip (or my finger)
and keep my trap shut.
when i do have to say something...
i say it quietly and clearly...
and i try not to react when it is ignored.i just appreciated... for the first time i fully appreciated... that they don't know me as a person. they don't know anything about me. about whether i have a sense of humour or not and which things i find funny. about things that are interesting to me. about things i am passionate about. all the things that babblers have gotten to know about me (my goods and my bads) they have no idea and they don't want to get to know me at all. Because whenever i try and show them something of me... they stomp on it.
do i do the same for them?
i really don't think so...
i really don't think so.
yeah. i guess... i hope i have a family one day. but i'm not going to hold my breath for that one. friends are more important to me, i guess.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 30, 2005, at 21:13:21
In reply to Re: bah humbug, posted by Maynerd on December 29, 2005, at 4:00:52
hey. yeah, i hear ya. we have 'mid-winter christmas' over here. round about the middle of winter. now that... is more of a celebration. i don't think it counts as an 'official holiday' but there are typically work dos etc. the middle of winter... it does help keep ones spirits up (and i guess there aren't family 'committments' around this one).
but it is hot hot hot it is summer over here now. and the last thing anyone really wants to do is feed their faces with all the 'traditional food'. some people (mostly elderly now) don't think it is christmas without the traditional roast but increasingly there is a move to salads and cold meats and bbq's. but really... after breakfast... well it does one all day really.
they tried to stomp on christmas. used to be... a mass orgy basically by the sounds of it. everyone got smashed as and broke into the food supply and had a right night of it. when food was scarce and you were living in mideval england i suppose there was some sense in it. needed the morale etc.
i think the christians tried to stomp on christmas. they couldn't. best they could do was to... turn it into a religious holiday.
peace and goodwill
whatever happened to getting drunk and f*cking ones brains out???
heh heh
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