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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 81. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 19, 2003, at 14:14:36
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 12:37:21
Anyone who knows me would know that I do not back away from difficult questions, if they seem to be valid questions to ask.....
Of course, I must recognize that I project my perceptions outwards, in assessing that validity...
I regret if my being me has led to any unpleasant feelings in the yous out there....
Lar
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 14:35:52
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 12:37:21
> >>(you implied I was saying your thinking is faulty)...
> <<So where is this implied?
[I'm going to put on my teflon suit now and let your analysis of my faulty thought process roll off me like water]
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 14:35:52
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 12:37:21
> >>(you implied I was saying your thinking is faulty)...
> <<So where is this implied?
[I'm going to put on my teflon suit now and let your analysis of my faulty thought process roll off me like water]
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 14:35:52
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 12:37:21
> >>(you implied I was saying your thinking is faulty)...
> <<So where is this implied?
[I'm going to put on my teflon suit now and let your analysis of my faulty thought process roll off me like water]
Posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 15:03:14
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » Jai Narayan, posted by gabbix2 on December 19, 2003, at 14:35:52
oh I guess I'm gabbix3 now!'
don't know what happened there. I just realized that must have looked so terse. Sorry. I'm feeling pretty emotional today so I didn't want to say anything esle I have a feeling it would just all come out wrong..I can't believe I've finally learned that : (
Posted by tabitha on December 19, 2003, at 19:22:12
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by Dinah on December 19, 2003, at 0:24:06
> Tabitha, if it means anything, I'm not having any trouble following you at all.
Thank you for saying so.
Everything you said about the effect of the group is probably right-on. The net effect of trying to challenge my perceptions is to leave me a bit confused.. without the familiar pigeon-holes to put people into, it's harder to understand them. Of course maybe I misunderstood them before, but at least I had a framework. Now I'm second-guessing and third-guessing every interaction.
Plus I may be feeling a little braver about trying new things-- being a tad more assertive. I'm bound to get new reactions. Other people have their own stuff too, right? I had mostly retreated into light social mode with everyone outside therapy the last couple years-- so I might be engaging a bit more, running into other folks' stuff.
I also think my meds may need a little tweak. I think I'm distorting to the negative. I keep hoping I'll perk up.
Posted by tabitha on December 19, 2003, at 21:38:51
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Speaker on December 18, 2003, at 23:53:44
I think my over-thinking brain is finally taking a rest. At least there are some islands in the traffic -- you know, nice little rest areas with shrubs and water fountains and informational maps-- although the six lanes of traffic are still whizzing past.
Posted by tabitha on December 19, 2003, at 21:40:14
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by Karen_kay on December 19, 2003, at 12:51:22
Posted by tabitha on December 19, 2003, at 21:43:40
In reply to Are things getting better?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 19, 2003, at 8:45:49
> You are a wonderful person and I like you very much and I want to send you my caring through these words.
> I care and know that your heart is true and you are sincere.
>
> Please don't stop communicating.Aww, thank you so much. That feels good to hear. Yup, I definitely suffer from over-thinking things. Sometimes it just gets comical. If only I could harness that energy toward something useful-- just bring it down from my head into my feet somehow.
Posted by tealady on December 20, 2003, at 1:18:37
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on December 18, 2003, at 8:46:51
Hi Tabitha,
First let me wish you a merry Xmas, happy and healthy 2004 and all that.
Just reading this thread..bit late getting there from Oz (unless I'm awake in the middle of the night).I hope you work it out soon, but please don't stop communicating. I appreciate the help you have given me before, and I'm sure many others do too.
The internet and emails must be one of the most difficult communication mediums , especially if one is not gifted in written expression. Phone is much easier.
Face to face we rely so much more on other means of communications..not so much the actual words..and the same words can mean sooo many different things depending on the way they are said..the tone, facial/body expressions etc..which just cannot be put into words effectively.
Still the internet does allow some communication and this is way better than none...believe meI haven't been following what had been happening , but just from this thread ..it really did come across to me that you thought you thought you were having a problem communicating
"> > I'm in a weird state. It seems like all my interactions with people are creating miscommunication. A lot of it is text and email like here which I know is notorious for miscommunication, but it's happening in my face to face and phonecalls too. It seems like I can't say anything or hear anything without a misunderstanding happening. My mind is going nuts trying to figure it out-- am I suddenly not seeing things clearly? Is everyone hypersensitive this time of year? It feels like I'm in a strange dream where everything is just a bit skewed."
>
and then Lar said ..>
> Tab, I've been confused in conversations with you myself, and I worked hard to figure out why. The best I can figure is that I get mixed messages, like there are mutually incompatible clusters of thoughts coming from you. It could be that the inferences I draw from what you're saying are not agreeing with the literal text.
>
> I thought maybe it was me. But if others are reporting this, then I think that perhaps my "mixed message" theory may be valid.
>
> Lar
which again , to me, just meant:
well I thought it was just me..but if you, yourself, personally, are finding it with others, and thinking you are having a problem yourself, ..then perhaps the fault is not ALL me after allI don't take as any rejection of hurtful thing to say where you need to put on a protective suit?
Of course, I really just came in on the end of this ... so this is just my interpretation based on what I see written here and how Lar comes across himself on the forum too.>
>"No, nobody else is saying that.
>If you're talking about what I think, what >happened there was you wouldn't take me at my >word. My message wasn't mixed-- it was rejected. >If you won't believe a sincere statement, then ?>there's nothing I can do to reach you.
>
>I'm going to put on my teflon suit now and let >your analysis of my faulty thought process roll >off me like water.
>
>Go in peace, Larry. "
>
I sure hope this helps a bit and I hope you work it out and feel great again soon ...but make sure you keep communicating, OK?Jan
Posted by tealady on December 20, 2003, at 13:19:56
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on December 20, 2003, at 1:18:37
Posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on December 20, 2003, at 1:18:37
> I don't take as any rejection of hurtful thing to say where you need to put on a protective suit?
Tell you what.. if you're OK with being told you give mixed messages and have mutually incompatible thought clusters coming from you.. how about I just give Larry's post to you as a gift? I find it hurtful, coming after some history of offering sincere statements and having them critiqued as being secretly insincere.
The protective suit is an image my therapist came up with to help me avoid taking others' criticisms to heart, given that what they see is mixed with their own projections. It's up to me to name what's true for me, and reject the rest. For me, communication breaks down when someone rejects my sincere statements of my own feelings and motivations. Beyond that, I'm just wasting energy fighting off someone's negative perception that doesn't fit. I have enough self-criticism. It's time for some self-protection.
Posted by tealady on December 20, 2003, at 22:50:51
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tealady, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
> > I don't take as any rejection of hurtful thing to say where you need to put on a protective suit?
>
> Tell you what.. if you're OK with being told you give mixed messages and have mutually incompatible thought clusters coming from you.. how about I just give Larry's post to you as a gift? I find it hurtful, coming after some history of offering sincere statements and having them critiqued as being secretly insincere.
>
> The protective suit is an image my therapist came up with to help me avoid taking others' criticisms to heart, given that what they see is mixed with their own projections. It's up to me to name what's true for me, and reject the rest. For me, communication breaks down when someone rejects my sincere statements of my own feelings and motivations. Beyond that, I'm just wasting energy fighting off someone's negative perception that doesn't fit. I have enough self-criticism. It's time for some self-protection.Tabitha,
If you really find that protective suit helps, then by all means wear it. Whatever helps is useful!
I just didn't read the post that way at all..more that he was receiving the mixed messages...and was a bit relieved to find the communication problem was not all his, in that others may be having communication problems too...just going by what you posted. I thought he was trying to be helpful in telling you how he was perceiving your messages.I was just stating how these posts came across to me.
You have never come across as insincere to me, and I didn't read that in Lar's comments, sigh.
Having one's sincere statements critiqued as being secretly insincere could be hurtful especially if you have not worked it out between you, but honestly..NONE of that came across in this thread, at least to me...and it does seem out of character for Larry.
Don't think I've helped at all, so I think I should give up... but I hope it all works out soon. I didn't mean to hurt you any further.Merry Xmas (or whatever name you are happy with),
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 21, 2003, at 8:36:15
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tealady, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
I'm going to open with quotes from two of tealady's posts, as they quite accurately reflect my own perceptions and intent:
to you:
"I haven't been following what had been happening , but just from this thread ..it really did come across to me that you thought you thought you were having a problem communicating."about me:
"which again , to me, just meant:
well I thought it was just me..but if you, yourself, personally, are finding it with others, and thinking you are having a problem yourself, ..then perhaps the fault is not ALL me after all"more about me:
"I just didn't read the post that way at all..more that he was receiving the mixed messages...and was a bit relieved to find the communication problem was not all his, in that others may be having communication problems too...just going by what you posted. I thought he was trying to be helpful in telling you how he was perceiving your messages."Exactly. I'm glad that my message was read that way by somebody, else I'd be thinking I may have another miscommunication problem to work out.
> Tell you what.. if you're OK with being told you give mixed messages and have mutually incompatible thought clusters coming from you.. how about I just give Larry's post to you as a gift? I find it hurtful, coming after some history of offering sincere statements and having them critiqued as being secretly insincere.
I'm sorry you felt my comments were hurtful. I have never said you were insincere, if that is what you implying about me.
I use a "playing catch" metaphor to represent interpersonal communications. One person "throws" an idea, and the other person tries to "catch" it. Miscommunication is when the ball is dropped, and it doesn't much matter whether it's because the throw was off the mark, or the catcher fumbled the ball. If you're the pitcher, you have no control over how the ball is caught. It's out of your control. The only thing you can change is how you throw the next ball.
When I offered up my theory of mixed messages, it may have seemed like I was "blaming" you, but it was an extension of the assumption you were seeking insight. You can't change me, for my part in miscommunication. My comments were about you because that is the only place YOU have power. Absolute power, in fact. I was not labelling you. I thought you were asking, in so many words, "Where might I look?".
> The protective suit is an image my therapist came up with to help me avoid taking others' criticisms to heart, given that what they see is mixed with their own projections.
What was I projecting? Help me with my insight, if you please.
> It's up to me to name what's true for me, and reject the rest.
Exactly the assumption I was assuming you would assume.
> For me, communication breaks down when someone rejects my sincere statements of my own feelings and motivations. Beyond that, I'm just wasting energy fighting off someone's negative perception that doesn't fit.
What did I say that was inherently negative? What did I reject as insincere? Or are you even talking about me?
> I have enough self-criticism. It's time for some self-protection.
A valid concern, but I wasn't throwing fire. Teflon an unanticipated response.
I do not blame you for our miscommunication. I continue to work on my part in dropping the ball. My mentioning what may be your part (merely a suggestion) does not remove the responsibility I face in working on my part....it helps me focus more clearly.
Regards,
Lar
Posted by Karen_kay on December 21, 2003, at 10:50:59
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tealady, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
(((tabitha))) I have to agree with Dinah. I haven't noticed any type of miscommunication on your behalf. Maybe it is those around you, who happen to be talking in circles. It can make your head spin, and leave you with the impression that you are miscommunicating. It will pass in time. Sending you warm, nice, and CLEAR thoughts (actions and words) for now!
Karen
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 21, 2003, at 10:59:45
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on December 21, 2003, at 8:36:15
>>When I offered up my theory of mixed messages, it may have seemed like I was "blaming" you, but it was an extension of the assumption you were seeking insight. You can't change me, for my part in miscommunication. My comments were about you because that is the only place YOU have power. Absolute power, in fact. I was not labelling you. I thought you were asking, in so many words, "Where might I look?".
<<Remember this quote? Lar you said this in Nov during communication with me about honesty: you said:
***" There is one exception. There are those who say they will speak with brutal honesty,………I just wanted to make a point that honesty should also include honest feelings, e.g. respect and empathy."***
<<You are not being brutal but you are not following your own rules:
***Larry wrote:
"I just wanted to make a point that honesty should also include honest feelings, e.g. respect and empathy."IMHO you may have wanted to fix the problem ***"Where might I look?"***
(give her your analysis) and that's where you were coming from while it appears she wanted to be heard and get some empathy. It's a common problem with communication styles…I often ask for emotional support not a **fix it** response.
Lar, your pearls of wisdom are greatly appreciated if I ask for them. I have learned a lot from you and am open to your reflection but only when I ask for it. Then I'm ready to learn...
I hope this can be resolved.
peace & love to you both
Posted by henrietta on December 21, 2003, at 11:00:09
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tealady, posted by tabitha on December 20, 2003, at 21:06:09
This is my first post, but I've been reading for a long time. I just want to say that I think you communicate beautifully, Tabitha. I always read your posts, always appreciate your particular articulate and intelligent style.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 21, 2003, at 11:48:40
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 21, 2003, at 10:59:45
Posting to a public board got public responses. I told you what I meant. I told you my motive. There's no way I'm going to accept someone else failing to treat *me* with empathy and respect, and failing to acknowldege *my* sincerity, in the guise of reinterpreting my words to imply my own failure in those realms.
This may be a Venus/Mars issue, but that is NOBODY's fault. Being a Venusian doesn't make this a Martian problem.
Have a nice day.
Lar
Posted by henrietta on December 21, 2003, at 12:48:48
In reply to Rampant miscommunication?, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 21:04:30
May I also add that I find you insightful and perceptive, and admire your interpretative abilities.
Posted by henrietta on December 21, 2003, at 12:53:52
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » tabitha, posted by henrietta on December 21, 2003, at 12:48:48
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 21, 2003, at 18:36:18
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication? » Jai Narayan, posted by Larry Hoover on December 21, 2003, at 11:48:40
> Posting to a public board got public responses. I told you what I meant. I told you my motive. There's no way I'm going to accept someone else failing to treat *me* with empathy and respect, and failing to acknowldege *my* sincerity, in the guise of reinterpreting my words to imply my own failure in those realms.
>
I guess my attempt to give you my clarity failed. wow I guess I thought you might understand that comment. Boy was I wrong.
> This may be a Venus/Mars issue, but that is NOBODY's fault. Being a Venusian doesn't make this a Martian problem.
>
I have not studied or learned about this concept. I don't know what you are talking about with the Venus/Mars stuff. sorry.
> Have a nice day.
Well I didn't have a nice day, I have been real sick. I hope you have a nice day.
>
> Lar
Jai Narayan
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 21, 2003, at 19:39:34
In reply to Rampant miscommunication?, posted by tabitha on December 17, 2003, at 21:04:30
I am astounded by how much interaction this post brought up. What must you think of this?
I am now in a conflict (of sorts) with Larry Hoover...I really didn't think that would happen again.
So are you doing alright ?
What does this look like from your point of view?
I honestly thought I had some good points to clarify but...well you see what has happened. Communication is so important and when it goes awry well I guess you sit back and wonder. How did this happen? What did I say? What did they mean? What is going on here? peace Jai Narayan
Posted by Karen_kay on December 21, 2003, at 20:38:33
In reply to what must you think of all of this?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 21, 2003, at 19:39:34
(((Jai)))
((Tabitha)))
And just for fun and because I hope she's reading....
(((Dinah)))Seems everyone's now involved in some sort of miscommunication??? Hopefully I won't get involved. I feel like when I try to support someone, someone else becomes offended and then I get involved.. So, it happems even with the best intentions.. But, the funny thing is it only happens on the board.. It doesn't seem to happen on the others.. Figure that one out.. I can't.. Maybe I can... Anyhooo....
Tabitha......Sorry that a post expressing frustration and looking for support had to move towards sourness.. I'm sure that the stress of the season has a lot to do with it.. I *TRULY AND SINCERELY* have not noticed the slightest bit of inconsistencies in your recent posts. If others have, then that is their option and opinion. I have not. It happens that people sometimes are misunderstood. It is commmon, very common. But, it will pass. And, as you can see, there are PLENTY of people here to support you, even if they do think that maybe you are being inconstistent. So, don't let it get you down too much.
Now, for ((Jai))
Girlie..... I'm sorry you are having conficts (of sorts) again... But, you can only have conficts if you allow them to happen... Just, don't let it get to you...Avoid the situation if you can. If that helps. If you feel that it isn't helping you, rather hindering you, then it is best to step aside for a while and evaluate yourself until you can come back with an open mind and clear(er) thoughts. [I don't mean step aside from the board.. Just try to seperate yourself from the situation. Does this make sense?] Or, don't respond. It may only feed a fire that doesn't need more oxygen. There are numerous people here who will support you (like me :) If you feel that someone isn't being supoprtive right now, take some time to thing about what you need and ask for it. If that person isn't willing to give it at that time then move on. But, I also wonder why it is that you and Larry seem to be "getting into it." (Stay with me here, ok?) Is it becasue he is telling you exactly how he feels. I know he doesn't always seem to come across as "sugary sweet" but he has firm boundaries and wants you to respect them. And it seems that the slightest infringement upon those boundaries puts up a red flag. Just something to consider....
I am (and will continue to be) here to support you. If you need support from me, just ask. Actually, you don't have to ask. I think I can tell if you need it. And it sounds like you need it now hun. You're doing a great job. Stick around. I like you :) "Because you're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone (is this spelled right?) it, people like you.."Larry...
I hope I'm not out of line by saying that. I'm really not trying to put my foot in my mouth, which I do quite often. Feel free to tell me if I have, and I'm sure you will :) I'm just trying to help Jai get a handle on a situation which is causing her some undue stress in her life. So, if I've written something out of place, don't spare my feelings (they don't get hurt too easily) and let me know. I'm just trying to do my part to support her, and possibly help her gain some perspective on this situation.
I hope things work out on everyone's behalf... Including my own. There, now I feel like I may need some support. Maybe there is some miscommunication going on from my part too...
[HELP!!]
Karen
Posted by gabbix2 on December 21, 2003, at 21:15:09
In reply to what must you think of all of this?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 21, 2003, at 19:39:34
I think if the depression doesn't cause you to lose your mind than the drugs will, and if neither of those do, than the stress from situations like this will. So really the only safe thing is to have no mind at all.
Now if you'll excuse me I have some t.v sets I need to throw out a window...
Posted by tealady on December 21, 2003, at 22:47:40
In reply to Re: Rampant miscommunication?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 21, 2003, at 10:59:45
> >>When I offered up my theory of mixed messages, it may have seemed like I was "blaming" you, but it was an extension of the assumption you were seeking insight. You can't change me, for my part in miscommunication. My comments were about you because that is the only place YOU have power. Absolute power, in fact. I was not labelling you. I thought you were asking, in so many words, "Where might I look?".
> <<Remember this quote? Lar you said this in Nov during communication with me about honesty: you said:
> ***" There is one exception. There are those who say they will speak with brutal honesty,………I just wanted to make a point that honesty should also include honest feelings, e.g. respect and empathy."***
> <<You are not being brutal but you are not following your own rules:
> ***Larry wrote:
> "I just wanted to make a point that honesty should also include honest feelings, e.g. respect and empathy."
OK...well personally what I think? I think Lar was speaking with respect and empathy and honesty...in fact I actually thought he was trying to be helpful and I also thought that Tabitha was actually asking for advice as well.This is not me just trying to take sides..it is what I REALLY thought.
So it seems that somehow I misinterpreted Tabitha's post as well...so I guess it depends on the person how it can be interpreted.It seems to me, Jai, that you seemed to be saying that Lar was breaking his own rules of " honesty should also include honest feelings, e.g. respect and empathy."...so are you saying that Lar was not being respectful or not showing empathy...as personally it came across to me that he was!...So it looks, to me, like you have jumped in , well it IS a public board .....and decided to say that Lar was either lacking in respect or empathy or both.
I really can't see where he did anything like that!It appeared to me that Tabitha was asking for some advice and/or sympathy..whatever anyone could offer. That is how I took the post , and on careful rereading I have not changed my mind.
Obviously I made the same mistake in interpretation as Lar.
Probably because, in a similar situation ,that is what I personally would be asking with similar words,.. for both advice and sympathy..that is what I find I need and value in support. Someone to not only listen ..but also someone to communicate with me and share their thoughts on the matter. This is a far bigger ask than just wanting people to agree with you or give you some sympathy, ..probably why it is hard to find.
But to me this is far more valuable....but obviously there is a difference in how we all think and what we all need...which is to expected as we are not all identical I guess.>
> IMHO you may have wanted to fix the problem ***"Where might I look?"***
> (give her your analysis) and that's where you were coming from while it appears she wanted to be heard and get some empathy. It's a common problem with communication styles…I often ask for emotional support not a **fix it** response.
So are you suggesting here that when someone asks for help ..they should specify what type of help they require..like sympathy ONLY please, no advice wanted...??
> Lar, your pearls of wisdom are greatly appreciated if I ask for them. I have learned a lot from you and am open to your reflection but only when I ask for it. Then I'm ready to learn...
> I hope this can be resolved.
> peace & love to you both
>
So here agian you are suggesting someone should respond with advice after a post only when they specifically say..advice wanted here?
note ..in Tabitha's first post she said
"It seems like all my interactions with people are creating miscommunication.....It seems like I can't say anything or hear anything without a misunderstanding happening. My mind is going nuts trying to figure it out-- am I suddenly not seeing things clearly? Is everyone hypersensitive this time of year? "So this is not asking for helpful advice?
I would have thought anyone replying and letting Tabitha know in a friendly way how they have been perceiving her messages was a helpful reply?
Jan
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