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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 0:31:17
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already, posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 0:12:36
Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 2:06:41
In reply to Re: (((tabitha))) (nm), posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 0:31:17
I had this whole fantasy built up already about the date, which is totally destroyed now.. so I think sheesh if I'm this worked up over this tiny thing, I'm obivously not ready to date after all..
But I should ignore these thoughts and persist right? Brush this off and find better prospects to date,,
what I used to do is, ignore the disappointments, and end up dating the guy for years anyway, to avoid facing the disappointments. Yuck.
I'm sure my therapist will have some useful though unpleasant advice about what to do from here. perhaps she'll say to tell the guy 'I was disappointed that you didn't offer to pick me up' then again, crap, men know the protocol, I shouldn't have to do such basic training, I should just trust my instinct now and ditch him. red flag! red flag!
At least my cat is choosing this time to act really psycho, she's having a love/hate thing with my slippers,, Oh- I want to rub myself all over you / No! I want to shread and destroy you! / But oh-- I must first rub myself all over you ! / No No! I hate you! You must die! // it's amusing. (((cat)))
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 6:45:55
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already, posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 0:12:36
Awww, sweet Tabitha, I'm sorry. But perhaps before you totally write off the date, you should ask him if he has a pressing engagement elsewhere that keeps him from picking you up himself. Or maybe in this day and age he thought you would feel safer to have your own transportation.
I remember one of the very few dates I had with someone other than my now husband was with someone I didn't really know, and who wasn't a friend of friends. I insisted on meeting him at a neutral location.
Perhaps, just perhaps, he was trying to be sensitive to any reluctance on your part to having him pick you up at your home. At any rate, I think I'm going to have to side with your therapist on this one. (Sorry, I know that's as annoying as siding with your mother). It can't hurt to ask him straight out what his reasons were. If the answer stinks, you just might save yourself a bad date. If it was all a misunderstanding, you might save yourself a good date. (And didn't we practice all that directness with our therapists for a reason?)
Posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 7:23:54
In reply to Re: sad truth is.., posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 2:06:41
Marriages often go awry due to lack of communication. Not that you're going to marry this guy (you never know), but you shouldn't start off on the wrong foot.
Talk to him. Ask him to pick you up. Tell him you would feel more comfortable not driving separately to a date. I don't think it would cause a rift. He might be thinking that you don't know each other well and you might be the type to want to be able to go if you feel like it.
You never know what the other person is thinking. Until you ask.
beardy
Posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 13:16:22
In reply to Re: sad truth is.., posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 2:06:41
Hey Tabby,
I'm sure Dinah and Beardy are offering you sound advice, healthier than mine. My sad truth is, I'd be watching out for those red flags--they can be good warning signs (like you I have tended to ignore them in the past until they become huge conflicts). The good news is...you're in the game enough to be watching out for them!I once went on a date and the guy didn't offer to pay for my (one) mineral water at the end of the evening. I never went out with him again--it was just so weird to me--I would pay for my girlfriend's mineral water, you know? Even though first dates are awkward and no-one knows the rules, I still think it says something about someone's character if he picks up the tab for a mineral water. (I guess itdidn't help that he was boring and not very attractive either.) He kept trying to go out with me for months afterward, telling me what a brilliant and funny guy he was. Maybe I should have just told hime he might have had a chance if he'd have paid for the mineral water. Maybe that sounds petty, but I do think it says something about a person.
Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 13:16:35
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 6:45:55
I'm going to stamp my princess foot and say 'doesn't matter -- he should still OFFER to pick me up' .. it's up to me to decide whether I feel safe letting him come to my house. I want a guy who follows the dating protocol, I like the ritual, it makes me feel like a girl.
Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 13:48:22
In reply to Re: sad truth is.., posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 13:16:22
Ugh. What are (some) men thinking? I don't get if they're afraid of being used financially by women, so they overcompensate by being cheap, or if they're just not comfortable stepping up the plate and playing the full-on 'suitor' role. But then they don't get it when we lose interest.
The guy who grudgingly bought my glass of wine.. we were in the same social club, so I kept enduring his little digs about how I had rejected him, in front of other guys.. finally I told him the truth about how awful the date was to me, especially not picking up the check. I don't know if it made much difference.
Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 13:50:23
In reply to Re: sad truth is.. » Tabitha, posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 7:23:54
OK that is 2 votes for open honest communication.
I guess I have to do something, I can't just show up, already pissed at him.
Posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 15:49:35
In reply to Re: sad truth is.., posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 13:16:22
> I once went on a date and the guy didn't offer to pay for my (one) mineral water at the end of the evening. I never went out with him again--it was just so weird to me--I would pay for my girlfriend's mineral water, you know? Even though first dates are awkward and no-one knows the rules, I still think it says something about someone's character if he picks up the tab for a mineral water. (I guess itdidn't help that he was boring and not very attractive either.) He kept trying to go out with me for months afterward, telling me what a brilliant and funny guy he was. Maybe I should have just told hime he might have had a chance if he'd have paid for the mineral water. Maybe that sounds petty, but I do think it says something about a person.
Couldn't help but add my 2 cents worth. Yes, I agree, it says a lot about a man's character if they can't even pick up a tab with a wine or two or glass of water on it!
Considering that he was boring and not very attractive he may have been insecure (even if he seemed full of himself) and actually hoping that if you offered to pick up your tab (or even his, too!), then you must really like him! In my opinion, even if you are into splitting checks and consider men paying for women's drinks/dinner, etc. a sexist practice (which does NOT describe me) I think it shows consideration for a man to treat the woman on their first date, especially if he asked her out.
Am I wrong in the assumption that whoever asks/invites usually pays?
Then, there are the cheapskate jerks, such as an old schoolmate of my husband's who takes pride in never paying for a drink and trying to get laid in the process, using his supposed wit, charm and good looks. Apparently he is good enough looking that it works occasionally. Or even sadder that there are women lonely enough to put up with it. Makes me fume :-S
And for some men to expect a kiss or another date after that....
Thank God for the good guys out there.
Posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 15:54:51
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 13:16:35
> I'm going to stamp my princess foot and say 'doesn't matter -- he should still OFFER to pick me up' .. it's up to me to decide whether I feel safe letting him come to my house. I want a guy who follows the dating protocol, I like the ritual, it makes me feel like a girl.
Tabitha,
I couldn't agree more. You deserve it. In case he just forgot to mention it, try to give him a chance to prove his chivalry. On a positive note, he might turn out to be a decent guy.If men want us to be feminine and sexy then they need to treat us as such.
I have a gay friend (who is always the feminine partner in the pair) and he demands to be treated accordingly. He tells me that no partner of his has ever refused!
Posted by gabbix2 on April 2, 2003, at 16:30:58
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already » Tabitha, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 15:54:51
Its an honest question. I don't understand why its up to the man to pay if a womans working.
I would sure like it if a man paid, but I'd not expect it. It seems like holding onto the traditions that are convenient for us and getting angry about the ones we don't like (women being paid less for example)I meant that as a question though, really.
I'm open to hearing different sides.
Posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 16:52:55
In reply to Why should the man pay?, posted by gabbix2 on April 2, 2003, at 16:30:58
> Its an honest question. I don't understand why its up to the man to pay if a womans working.
> I would sure like it if a man paid, but I'd not expect it. It seems like holding onto the traditions that are convenient for us and getting angry about the ones we don't like (women being paid less for example)
>
> I meant that as a question though, really.
> I'm open to hearing different sides.
I could be opening up a can of worms, and this is strictly my opinion, which isn't carved in stone or in any way the only opinion that I feel is "right".Most of the time, when men (who aren't physically handicapped in some way) pursue women, they are ultimately looking for sex (every man I've asked who has been honest with me has admitted this). Women seem to be looking more for security, love, commitment, etc. than they are for sex (I'm excluding female sex-aholics who seem to be in the minority). The men enjoy the security, love and commitment, too, but that's not usually what they're originally seeking.
Could women be seeking these things because they are often not earning as much as men? If a woman makes more money than the average man is she still looking for these things, or does she then have a different perspective? Such as seeking companionship strictly for fun (sex and/or companionship).
The women who truly enjoy sex seem to be the ones who feel fulfilled in their lives, whether financially, career-wise or romantically.
Because men are usually the ones pursuing women for their ulterior motive, sex, I guess tradition has always had it that they are the ones who pay for trying. Even if they don't succeed, the women owes them nothing. A women agrees to have sex because she is ready and willing, even if it means waiting until the couple is married. Some men seem to enjoy the pursuit. Others resent being financially responsible for a date, even if they, too, are seeking sex, maybe because many women do have a higher earning capacity then they used to?
Not all are tending children at home and 100% dependent on their husband's salary, or earning $8.00 an hour as a receptionist. Is this where many men would still like us ALL to be? Thankfully, I don't think so.The modern men of today have learned to share responsibilities at home and come to grips with the fact that their wife may earn the same or more than they do.
Should a man such as this be expected to pay for a date when he has asked her out? Absolutely, and it has nothing to do with earning power, and everything to do with desire. He or she who desires will do what it takes to accomplish his mission. That goes for females, too.If I were single and extremely interested in a man who showed little interest in me I would try to appear as enticing as possible subtly. If that didn't work, I might send a friendly e-mail asking if he had seen such and such movie and would he like to come? If he said yes, I would glady pay for his ticket, too, although if he offered to pay for mine, I would see that as a sign that he wanted to "take care of me". I don't know if this is bad, but I certainly would enjoy it! The kiss afterwards would all depend on the chemistry during the date.
Posted by gabbix2 on April 2, 2003, at 17:34:23
In reply to Re: Why should the man pay? » gabbix2, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 16:52:55
Very interesting, you brought up some really good points. I'm going to be chewing on those for a while.
Thanks, especially for understanding that It was a real question not a pronouncemnt.
Posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 18:05:46
In reply to Re: sad truth is.. » kara lynne, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 15:49:35
>> it says a lot about a man's character if they can't even pick up a tab with a wine or two or glass of water on it!
I'm not sure it says a lot about a man's character, but, in our culture, it could be saying a lot about what the date means to him, what his intentions are, etc. Ie, in our culture, I think it is widely expected that men who are "wooing" women do carry the burden of asking, paying, being chivalrous, etc. A man who doesn't engage in at least some of these behaviors probably isn't conveying a lot of motivation.
But I don't think it says much about character, per se. And the conventions we have around dating are kind of rigid, if you think about it.
The point, though is that you are someone who wants that kind of traditional approach. So if you know what you want, that can help you go out and seek it!
Posted by Greg on April 2, 2003, at 18:06:05
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already, posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 0:12:36
Hi Tabitha,
It's been a long time since I asked anyone out on a date, except for my wife, and I always pick her up :). I believe in the old dating rituals. If a guy asks a girl out to the movies, he should pick her up, pay for the movie, the popcorn, candy, and soda, and respect the lady enough to look carefully for that sign whether or not she wants that kiss goodnight. But that's me, I'm very old-fashioned. If the girl asks the guy, then it should work the other way around.
I think it's very cool that you want to be treated this way, and there's nothing wrong with it at all. I say you ask him why he didn't mention picking you up. It may be that he just didn't want to make you uncomfortable. I hope it all works out just the way you want and you have a great time!
Greg
Posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 18:13:27
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already...maybe not » Tabitha, posted by Greg on April 2, 2003, at 18:06:05
Truth is, we're programmed this way--it is part of the mating rituals to see men who can provide security as attractive potential mates. Have you ever seen the Bower birds on nature shows? The males build these elaborate "homes" out of twigs and leaves, and decorate them beautifully. They are architecturaly beautiful. Some of them stage a whole scene of a beautiful shelter adorned at the entrances with "jewels"--colorful and shiny objects, like stones and fruits, etc. I don't think they actually end up using the bowers that were build for purposes of alluring the female--it is just something to show their prowess at providing!
So I think that we might find chivalry attractive, because we are built to do so. However, we're not birds--we've evolved brains that have more complex ways of looking at things, so we don't have to necessarily be enslaved to our evolutionary "scripts"--we have the choice. But it could account, at least in part, for what attracts us, at least initially.
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 18:35:53
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already...maybe not, posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 18:13:27
I pursued my husband like a hungry cheetah after a gazelle. And he loved it. :) In fact that's how I got him. He probably wouldn't have noticed me romantically if I hadn't noticed him first.
And since we were classmates, there wasn't a lot of chivalry involved. (grin) You just can't muster chivalry or girliness for that matter when you've been competing for grades for a while.
But Noa's right. If you know an old fashioned chivalrous guy is what you want, you are perfectly justified in preferring not to date the other sort. I still think it's worth a clarifying question though.
Posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 18:58:49
In reply to Re: I always knew I wasn't a woman., posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 18:35:53
"I pursued my husband like a hungry cheetah after a gazelle. "
I think it's cool that you did that, Dinah. See, I wish I had the confidence to. So maybe I'm asking the guy for something I'm lacking in-- could be part of it, as well as upbringing, cultural conditioning, yadda yadda yadda. But look at you--you got your gazelle (oh, I do hate that image though!).
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 19:09:27
In reply to Re: I always knew I wasn't a woman., posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 18:58:49
I'm not sure I would have had the nerve to do it with someone I didn't know. We were friendly rivals before I decided he was just about everything I wanted in a guy.
Of course, I don't know. I was a completely different person in tenth and twelth grades (and part of my freshman year of college). Flirtatious and somewhat outgoing. Giddy happy. Filled with the fresh confidence of burgeoning womanhood (and with brand new breasts). All my dates and date offers (except my husband's continuing dates of course) came from that period. There must be something attractive about confidence and happiness. Then I turned back into a pumpkin, but my husband still loved me anyway. I think he hasn't totally forgotten that happy flirtatious girl.
Posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 19:16:42
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » kara lynne, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 19:09:27
Dinah,
I think it's that memory of who I was when he first knew me that keeps my husband committed to me.
That song "Unwell" rings true for me a bit.
Posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:46:08
In reply to Why should the man pay?, posted by gabbix2 on April 2, 2003, at 16:30:58
I agree, but then I'm an old feminist. I always ask (most agreeably) if I can contribute. Then it's not like 50-50 (tho my 'contribution' may well be 50%), and it seems to diffuse any tension that might have occurred. If someone says no (and no man has ever said no), then next time it's my treat. I also offer to leave the tip if it looks like 'contributing' isn't gonna fly.
I have more fights with my goilfriends about this issue than I ever did with fellas. 8-D
Shar
> Its an honest question. I don't understand why its up to the man to pay if a womans working.
> I would sure like it if a man paid, but I'd not expect it. It seems like holding onto the traditions that are convenient for us and getting angry about the ones we don't like (women being paid less for example)
>
> I meant that as a question though, really.
> I'm open to hearing different sides.
Posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:51:33
In reply to Re: Why should the man pay? » gabbix2, posted by WorryGirl on April 2, 2003, at 16:52:55
OK, I agree with part of this, too. If a man asks someone out, then the expectation is that he'll pay. Just like if he asked her to the opera or something, he'd provide the tickets. But, it works both ways (or should, in my opinion).
If it's a hey, let's get together thing, then splitting things up makes sense. And I still believe that if the guy pays for the first time out, I pay for the second.
Moreover, I always felt that by paying my share, I was making a statement (even if only to myself) that I was not obligated to put out. Plus, I wouldn't put out for dinner; it'd have to be something big, like a new car. :)
Shar
> > Its an honest question. I don't understand why its up to the man to pay if a womans working.
> > I would sure like it if a man paid, but I'd not expect it. It seems like holding onto the traditions that are convenient for us and getting angry about the ones we don't like (women being paid less for example)
> >
> > I meant that as a question though, really.
> > I'm open to hearing different sides.
>
>
> I could be opening up a can of worms, and this is strictly my opinion, which isn't carved in stone or in any way the only opinion that I feel is "right".
>
> Most of the time, when men (who aren't physically handicapped in some way) pursue women, they are ultimately looking for sex (every man I've asked who has been honest with me has admitted this). Women seem to be looking more for security, love, commitment, etc. than they are for sex (I'm excluding female sex-aholics who seem to be in the minority). The men enjoy the security, love and commitment, too, but that's not usually what they're originally seeking.
>
> Could women be seeking these things because they are often not earning as much as men? If a woman makes more money than the average man is she still looking for these things, or does she then have a different perspective? Such as seeking companionship strictly for fun (sex and/or companionship).
>
> The women who truly enjoy sex seem to be the ones who feel fulfilled in their lives, whether financially, career-wise or romantically.
>
> Because men are usually the ones pursuing women for their ulterior motive, sex, I guess tradition has always had it that they are the ones who pay for trying. Even if they don't succeed, the women owes them nothing. A women agrees to have sex because she is ready and willing, even if it means waiting until the couple is married. Some men seem to enjoy the pursuit. Others resent being financially responsible for a date, even if they, too, are seeking sex, maybe because many women do have a higher earning capacity then they used to?
> Not all are tending children at home and 100% dependent on their husband's salary, or earning $8.00 an hour as a receptionist. Is this where many men would still like us ALL to be? Thankfully, I don't think so.
>
> The modern men of today have learned to share responsibilities at home and come to grips with the fact that their wife may earn the same or more than they do.
> Should a man such as this be expected to pay for a date when he has asked her out? Absolutely, and it has nothing to do with earning power, and everything to do with desire. He or she who desires will do what it takes to accomplish his mission. That goes for females, too.
>
> If I were single and extremely interested in a man who showed little interest in me I would try to appear as enticing as possible subtly. If that didn't work, I might send a friendly e-mail asking if he had seen such and such movie and would he like to come? If he said yes, I would glady pay for his ticket, too, although if he offered to pay for mine, I would see that as a sign that he wanted to "take care of me". I don't know if this is bad, but I certainly would enjoy it! The kiss afterwards would all depend on the chemistry during the date.
Posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:56:22
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already...maybe not, posted by noa on April 2, 2003, at 18:13:27
>
> So I think that we might find chivalry attractiveI agree wholeheartedly. It comes down to, what is chivalry? Paying for a meal or movie tickets may be custom, but chivalry has to do with respectful behavior (note I did not say respect, which may or may not accompany respectful behavior), imo. And, respectful behavior goes for women, too, IMO.
Feministly yours,
Shar
Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 23:28:46
In reply to Re: It was probably easier in high school » kara lynne, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 19:09:27
Just like in the movies, the rivalry turns to love.. I wish that could happen to me.
For me a friend or a friendly rival has never turned into anything else.
Posted by Tabitha on April 2, 2003, at 23:39:42
In reply to Re: my date is ruined already...maybe not, posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:56:22
it's not the money, it's the dance step. I used to insist on paying half, and I think guys got the message I didn't really want them to court me. So I tried letting them pay, and discovered it makes me feel more vulnerable, and more romantic. I even let my male friends pay if they offer, I figure I'm doing them a favor to let them 'be the man' especially if they're older.
I asked men out before, and paid, but it just doesn't really feel right. It throws off the steps.
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