![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:14:39
A friend is in a bad way, and it is really screwing me up.
This friend is threatening suicide... I now dream about it and can think of little else.
but there is nothing i can do, and so i feel this huge huge guilt thing that is causing me to just run away. Its something i cannot deal with right now as I'nm in a pretty damned bad way but can't open up about it...
I am fe dup of friend sputting this kind of pressure on me.. When i feel relaly suicidal I go away and do it, I don't spend age stelling poeple I'm going to do it, as I would hate how that amde them feel.
How do i deal with these feelings without losing the few areas of support I have??
I no longer want friends. they all seem to end up making me feel like utter shit. Is it simply easier to have no friends??
Nikki
Posted by daizy on December 12, 2002, at 12:25:17
In reply to Guilt, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:14:39
Some people like to talk, others just keep their feelings to themselves as to not make others feel guilty. like you, I dont discuss my feelings, I just bottle it all up, except since coming on here. Friends are definitely worth having, I should know, most of mine have backed off me since i became depressed, and it can be extremely lonely without them. I think you shouldnt feel guilty for the state your friend is in, trying to support your friend is such a nice thing to do, and it might give you something else to focus on. I dont know, im new here so i dont really know if my advise is good advise, but just try (i know its hard sometimes to be nice and keep smiling) if you can to keep hold of all your friends.
ps: sorry for waffling!....
.> A friend is in a bad way, and it is really screwing me up.
>
> This friend is threatening suicide... I now dream about it and can think of little else.
>
> but there is nothing i can do, and so i feel this huge huge guilt thing that is causing me to just run away. Its something i cannot deal with right now as I'nm in a pretty damned bad way but can't open up about it...
>
> I am fe dup of friend sputting this kind of pressure on me.. When i feel relaly suicidal I go away and do it, I don't spend age stelling poeple I'm going to do it, as I would hate how that amde them feel.
>
> How do i deal with these feelings without losing the few areas of support I have??
>
> I no longer want friends. they all seem to end up making me feel like utter shit. Is it simply easier to have no friends??
>
> Nikki
Posted by wendy b. on December 12, 2002, at 14:15:19
In reply to Guilt, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:14:39
Nikki,
I'm sorry you're having this problem. It makes our definition of "friendship" go out the window when shit like this happens.
Unfortunately, my sister did this to me when I came to the large, eastern-seaboard city where she lives; I was traveling there for a work-related conference. She came to my hotel as soon as I got into town, told me life wasn't worth living any more, that she'd thought of suicide, cried, and then she left. I was upset for the whole conference (4 days) and I was giving a paper, so I wanted to be on top of things. But I was a wreck from her doing that, and later (a few weeks after that) I became really angry.Someone advised me this: if she were REALLY suicidal, she wouldn't be moaning and crying - she'd be actively doing something. He said I would know whether or not to take her to the emergency room (and my gut told me she didn't need to go right then). He saw it as manipulative and hurtful. I would think what your "friend" is doing to you also qualifies as manipulative...
There is nothign you can do for her. You are too fragile to help anyone with problems of that magnitude, and you will have to tell her so. You are right, if she was really ready to act on it, she would not be moaning at your door. This is why it's manipulative and BAD for you to be around... Friends actually DON'T do this. So maybe you aren't losing something you never had. It's very hard when you feel your circle closing... But you have needs too, damn it... You need calm, support, empathy and love. I doubt anyone in her position would be able to give you that...
Set up boundaries to keep this kind of behavior away. For example: "If you're going to talk about suicide, I'll have to get off the phone." Tell her you would like some support too. Ask her if she thinks your relationship is one of equals, or are you always tending to what SHE needs. If she can't give as well as take, then you need to let her go...
I'm sorry you're in pain over this.
Best,
Wendy
> A friend is in a bad way, and it is really screwing me up.
>
> This friend is threatening suicide... I now dream about it and can think of little else.
>
> but there is nothing i can do, and so i feel this huge huge guilt thing that is causing me to just run away. Its something i cannot deal with right now as I'nm in a pretty damned bad way but can't open up about it...
>
> I am fe dup of friend sputting this kind of pressure on me.. When i feel relaly suicidal I go away and do it, I don't spend age stelling poeple I'm going to do it, as I would hate how that amde them feel.
>
> How do i deal with these feelings without losing the few areas of support I have??
>
> I no longer want friends. they all seem to end up making me feel like utter shit. Is it simply easier to have no friends??
>
> Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 16:13:40
In reply to Re: Guilt » NikkiT2, posted by wendy b. on December 12, 2002, at 14:15:19
It was a rant I shouldn't have expressed under the circumstancews here... we don't talk on the phone.. just via Text messages on mobile..
Its just I've been in friendships in the oast that have left me so exhausted by threats and guilt.. I really don't want to go down that route again... I went away for the weekend and was un contactable and was terrified by what i would come home to... I don't want to lose a friend, but the way my hea dis at the moment, I can't give the support thats expected of me.
I can't turn my mobile off, and when themessages arrive, I seem unable tio just ignore them!
I am great at picking blokes, and have always had good, long term boyfriends, but I am appaling at choosing female friends!!!
Nikki xx
Posted by dreamerz on December 12, 2002, at 17:23:02
In reply to Guilt, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:14:39
Is it simply easier to have no friends??
Yep
Be selfish until you feel stronger to deal with things..I haven't got there yet--only seem to get on with men.
( resuming self blockage )
..
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2002, at 18:21:48
In reply to Guilt, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:14:39
I guess it would be simpler to have no friends, and I have certainly made that choice at times.
Is your friend supportive to you when you're feeling down? Do you give her a chance to be? Reciprocity in relationships is important to both parties. (That's one thing that makes therapy great.) If it's a one sided relationship, it might not be a true friendship.
I think it's important in any relationship to understand that there is only so much you can do. You aren't responsible for your friend's life or decisions. She is ultimately responsible for the choices she makes. (Add crossed arms, and I'd sound just like my therapist here. :) )
And of course you can only give what you can give without leaving yourself empty. Sometimes the most you can give is a recommendation to a therapist or the suggestion that she contact an emergency room. But that can be a caring thing to do in itself.
All that being said (and all of it being true and important), I'm sure your friend is in a lot of pain and in no way intends to hurt you. We all deal with pain differently. My therapist gets angry with me sometimes (not openly, but I can feel it) when I express suicidal or self-injurious thoughts and one time I stopped him and asked him to listen to what I was really saying. To listen to the pain behind what I was saying and to respond to that rather than to the thoughts themselves. Of course, he quite rightly turned that around and asked me to express the pain directly rather than through talk of suicide and self injury. (grin) But perhaps your friend can't do that.
OK, I'm sounding all preachy now and I didn't mean to. Sorry.
Dinah
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 2:46:22
In reply to Re: Guilt » NikkiT2, posted by dreamerz on December 12, 2002, at 17:23:02
Are we twins??!!!
Throughout my life, I ahve had few female friends... I find men so much less complicated (htough Ihave ahard time excepting my male friends are now men and not boys!!)
Ahhhhhhhh!!!
Nikki xx
Posted by tina on December 13, 2002, at 8:45:31
In reply to Guilt, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:14:39
If guilt is all you feel when your "friend" says she wants to kill herself, maybe you aren't very good friends to begin with. I'm sure she won't talk about it anymore now that she knows how you feel. Maybe she'll just do it without all the "whingeing and moaning."
Posted by tina on December 13, 2002, at 8:47:20
In reply to Guilt, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:14:39
You can go back to ASH. I won't be there anymore.
Posted by BeardedLady on December 13, 2002, at 9:38:43
In reply to Re: Guilt--Oh, and PS Nikki, posted by tina on December 13, 2002, at 8:47:20
Tina:
I am glad to see your name. Angry is good; angry is alive.
I am trying to get into the Christmas spirit, but I keep having an image of my dead dog being carried across the busy street by my husband, who was crying hysterically. I can't stop thinking about it. I don't know if I will ever stop seeing that image.
I keep thinking of the image of you in the snow, too. I don't even know you, but the thought is so sad. It's an image that stays with me, too.
I wish you peace, Tina--peace and life at the same time.
yours,
beardy
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 10:33:57
In reply to Re: Guilt--Oh, and PS Nikki, posted by tina on December 13, 2002, at 8:47:20
Unless you text message me, this is obviously not about you.
I ahve left ASH for personal reasons I do NOT want to go into here... Strangely enough, I am having a very har dtime at the moment and have left ALL my yahoo groups for a while. I need time for Nikki and was having a hard time at another group, and took the decision to leave them all over christmas.
I have also pulled back from my real time friends too.Maybe I am a bad friend. thats how I feel at the moment, and thats what this was about.
This is about ME and MY feelings, not you. I am having to distance myself from suicidal people, yes, because I am so close to the edge myself right now I simply can't talk about it to others.
I'm not seeing things clearly, I know that, which is why I ahve pulled away from everyone. I don't want to have to hold personal conversations as people are making me angry, for no reason other than my head state, and I hate being angry toward people.
OK, I accept I worded this all wrong, and maybe should ahve found some other site to post it, but I hav ebeen here a long time now, and felt I could come here for some support when needed without massive feelings of guilt.
The friend is now in hospital after someone else called the services in her area. I hope she is getting the help she needs.
I desperately, desperately, don't want to lose ANY friends.. especially you... so I thought distancing myself would be best for all concerned.
I recived a christmas card from you this mroning. It was incredibly special and made me cry for the way we both feel right now.
Tina. You nkow I don't say I love you easily, but I do love you... and I will be there for you in a million ways as soon as I can.
I have gone back on mediaction (only 2 days into it though) and hope to be more calm and stuff very soon.I ahven't maile dyou as you asked, at ASH, for none of us to do that. maybe I hsould have ignored you, but I was trying to follow your wishes - ever hopeful you will get through this time.
Please wait for me to get past this... please...
Nikki xxxxxx
Posted by ROO on December 13, 2002, at 13:03:35
In reply to Re: Guilt » NikkiT2, posted by wendy b. on December 12, 2002, at 14:15:19
>
> Someone advised me this: if she were REALLY
suicidal, she wouldn't be moaning and crying
- she'd be actively doing something. He said
I would know whether or not to take her to the
emergency room (and my gut told me she didn't
need to go right then). He saw it as
manipulative and hurtful. I would think what
your "friend" is doing to you also qualifies as
manipulative...
This post kind of stuck with me and made me feel bad. I'm not sure
why. I guess because I have suicidal thoughts lately and I struggle
with whether to tell my friends or not. On the one hand, they're my
friends and I feel like I should be able to share with them what I"m going
through, and friends should be able to talk about their deep pain together...on
the other hand...of course I don't want to "burden them" and of course my deepest
fear would be that I would be seen somehow as "manipulative"...what an awful thing.When is telling friends how you are feeling going over into the line of being
manipulative? I wanna know because I don't want to be manipulative, but I also
don't want to feel like I have to keep everything buried inside. If you're feeling
suicidal is the ONLY appropriate person to tell your therapist?If anything, I tend to isolate and NOT tell friends when I'm feeling suicidal...the
more suicidal I feel, the less likely I am to talk about it. When I do talk about it, I'll
usually say "I've been having a lot of suicidal THOUGHTS", I won't threaten suicide. Sometimes
I feel friends maybe SHOULD be aware of just how seriously horrible I feel at times, but then
I feel "what's really the point" because there's nothing they could do for me anyway.>
Posted by Tabitha on December 13, 2002, at 14:29:39
In reply to Guilt, posted by NikkiT2 on December 12, 2002, at 10:14:39
Nikki,
It's difficult for anyone to listen to suicidal talk from a friend. Don't fault yourself if you can't do it. For her own good your friend needs to find someone such as a professional therapist who is equipped to listen and help. Maybe you could explain to your friend that it's simply too painful for you to listen to her when she's suidical, and you just can't give her the support that she needs at that time.
Posted by wendy b. on December 13, 2002, at 15:28:59
In reply to Re: Guilt--Wendy, posted by ROO on December 13, 2002, at 13:03:35
> > Someone advised me this: if she were REALLY
> suicidal, she wouldn't be moaning and crying
> - she'd be actively doing something. He said
> I would know whether or not to take her to the
> emergency room (and my gut told me she didn't
> need to go right then). He saw it as
> manipulative and hurtful. I would think what
> your "friend" is doing to you also qualifies as
> manipulative...
>
>
> This post kind of stuck with me and made me feel bad. I'm not sure
> why. I guess because I have suicidal thoughts lately and I struggle
> with whether to tell my friends or not. On the one hand, they're my
> friends and I feel like I should be able to share with them what I"m going
> through, and friends should be able to talk about their deep pain together...on
> the other hand...of course I don't want to "burden them" and of course my deepest
> fear would be that I would be seen somehow as "manipulative"...what an awful thing.
>
> When is telling friends how you are feeling going over into the line of being
> manipulative? I wanna know because I don't want to be manipulative, but I also
> don't want to feel like I have to keep everything buried inside. If you're feeling
> suicidal is the ONLY appropriate person to tell your therapist?
>
> If anything, I tend to isolate and NOT tell friends when I'm feeling suicidal...the
> more suicidal I feel, the less likely I am to talk about it. When I do talk about it, I'll
> usually say "I've been having a lot of suicidal THOUGHTS", I won't threaten suicide. Sometimes
> I feel friends maybe SHOULD be aware of just how seriously horrible I feel at times, but then
> I feel "what's really the point" because there's nothing they could do for me anyway.
>
Oh Roo,I'm so sorry you took it to heart. I was talking about myself and my sister, really. There's nothing like a sister to lay you waste... And she does it (did it) so well and so perfectly.
I don't think anyone should hide their suicidal thought and feelings, because opening up to people who are IS the only way some people get dissuaded. It probably better to say you've been having suicidal thoughts than to threaten, though. But suicidal people aren't/can't be thinking about the other person, that's why all of our exchanges this past week have been so painful, to me as well... "Suicidal" is all about the self, there is no other. I think a lot of people think their survivors will be better off without them, and thus rationalize that they ARE in fact thinking about others, but this is never the case. The grief and pain relatives and friends feel is never ending.
I'm probably not explaining myself very well, and for that I'm sorry. This is a difficult thing to come to terms with. I believe you should have every opportunity to talk about your suicidal thoughts, but maybe it is better for a therapist than a friend or relative... If a therapist is available. But no one is going to say they think it's a great idea if you off yourself, no friend or therapist would do that. That's why I said that once the person has made up their mind, they kind of stop talking. In my experience...
Again, Roo, I wasn't talking about anyone except my sister and myself. Please accept my apology...............
Kindest regards,
Wendy
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 16:38:02
In reply to Re: Guilt--Wendy, posted by ROO on December 13, 2002, at 13:03:35
"When is telling friends how you are feeling going over into the line of being
manipulative? I wanna know because I don't want to be manipulative"It felt manipulative when I was threatened with her suicide.. when i felt if I didn;t do x or y, then she would do it, and I would be to blame. When the pressure of whethr she lived or died was on MY head... I felt manipulated then...
Hope this helps... I am terrified of making someone feel like that, that is probably the main reason why I can't call out when I am suicidal.
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 18:26:20
In reply to Re: Guilt--Wendy » ROO, posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 16:38:02
OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here. I think that talk of suicide is usually not manipulative, but a cry of pain. Especially if you know someone is genuinely depressed.
I know that sometimes therapists and friends find suicide threats manipulative, and sometimes they appear on the surface to be. Especially if it is a threat to commit suicide if you do or do not do something. The same thing is said of cutters who don't hide their cutting. I was subtly accused of it as a teen when, no, I probably wasn't going to kill myself. I just wanted things to go back to the way they were. Things hadn't been bad long enough for me to give up hope.
But even then my suicide threats weren't manipulative except in the sense that they were trying to manipulate my parents to give me the help I needed, to make the bad things go away. So, perhaps based on my experience, I see even the most manipulative-appearing suicide threats as attempts to communicate by people who are in pain and see no other way to communicate their pain or who really want things to be different.
So even if someone said "I'll kill myself if I don't get a pony" I would think that what they were really saying (in not the best way) is "I really really want a pony, and if I'm afraid of how bad I'll feel if I don't get one." Perhaps they grew up in a chronically invalidating environment where the only way to have their needs attended to was to behave in an extreme way.
That doesn't mean that people have to bankrupt themselves emotionally for their friends. It's perfectly legitimate to suggest that someone talk to their therapist about this, because you honestly can't handle it.
But I've just heard about so much hostility directed towards the chronically suicidal. (I'm not talking about here. I'm talking about in my readings in therapy.) And on some level that bothers me because obviously they are in pain and that pain needs to be attended to. If someone is crying for attention, maybe they really need attention.
I suggest reading Marsha Linehan's work or watching her videos on borderline personality disorder.
By the way, that's a nice thing about this site. If someone is really feeling suicidal, they can say so here. Sure we all get upset, but there isn't the degree of responsibility that there would be with one friend because we can support each other while supporting the suicidal person.
I'm sorry for the rant. I just don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable about posting suicidal feelings here or telling a friend. That may be the difference in what a person chooses to do. (By the way, one reason I go to therapy and intend to do so indefinitely is to discuss my suicidal or self injurious feelings. My family can't handle it. So in general, I'm greatly in favor of therapy in these matters.)
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 18:27:53
In reply to Re: Guilt » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 18:26:20
It was a general rant, not directed to anyone at all.
I forget to check that pernicious box all the time and then when I don't want to check it, I do.
Darn darn darn.
Sorry Nikki
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 18:41:40
In reply to Re: Guilt » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 18:26:20
After writing all that, I had a memory of that period of my life and I actually did threaten to kill myself if I didn't get a cat. There was a huge hysterical scene, with my psychiatrist called.
And actually I didn't give a flying fig if I got a cat. What I was trying to say was that I was miserable, I didn't see how I could continue to bear the life I was leading and how I wanted out. The cat was just the lightning rod for the fury and rage that I felt over everything else in my life.
I can see how everyone in my life probably thought it was a manipulative attempt to get a cat. I just didn't have the words to say what I needed to say, and they didn't have the ears to hear it.
Posted by justyourlaugh on December 13, 2002, at 19:04:30
In reply to Re: Guilt » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 18:26:20
hi
i remember not being able to hid the scars from people anymore.so at 16 i tried to cut my arm off with a carving knife-then no one will see.
still have both arms.never wanted anyone to know.
started up again after many years-
its personal-not for display.
jyl
Posted by ROO on December 14, 2002, at 12:16:16
In reply to Re: Guilt--Wendy » ROO, posted by wendy b. on December 13, 2002, at 15:28:59
. Please accept my apology...............
Wendy--No need at all for apologies...I was just wanting some
clarification...thanks for explaining...that helped alot...I've been thinking about it a lot...I was sitting at my kitchen table
last night thinking about it...and thinking about whether telling friends
(at least on a regular basis)(and I haven't been doing that) that I'm feeling suicidal is "effective" as
my therapist would say...it's not really...it doesn't really serve a helpful
purpose...for me or for them...and then the phrase "No, you just can't do
that to people" went through my head. I don't know if that's coming from a
judgemental part of myself or not. But I think if it's not told on a board like
this or the therapist's office or another person who suffers from depression who
_really_ understands and there's an implicit understanding that the two of you can
discuss these sorts of things freely...than it just sorts of causes alot of discomfort
and worry amongst friends that you can't really do anything WITH. Like you get your friends
all stirred up, but then they can't do anything with the stirred up emotions. I'll maybe
have to check that out with my friends to see if that's true or not. I've never threatened suicide.
I've just said (in a rather casual voice, while I'm describing my depression) that I've had
suicidal thoughts and that it's disturbing. I guess when I read your post I wondered and worried that
maybe I was being manipulative. I also worried about the other part of your post...in that my depression
has been so bad lately that I haven't been able to be a very good friend (something I've always prided myself
on...I've always been a really good friend...very loyal...a good listener...there in a crisis...etc) It's one of the things
I really liked about myself...and now
I feel so self absorbed with my own negativity. It makes me ashamed. And I felt the shame renewed, I guess, when I read the
post, and the fear ignited, "Oh my god, I'm a selfish self absorbed depressed person, CAN i really be a good friend? Maybe all
my friends are just going to dump me...maybe they should because I can't be an equal!"....As you can see...I took it all
WAY too personally...which is what one does when they're depressed!!! :-) :-)Silly me....
>
>
Posted by Ted on December 14, 2002, at 21:50:06
In reply to Re: Guilt » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2002, at 18:26:20
Dinah,
Most excellent recommendation. I agree -- everyone here should read about her and her methods. You can do much for free on the internet if you don't want to buy books or videos.
Good luck all!
Ted
Posted by kath on December 17, 2002, at 20:18:18
In reply to Tina - please let me explain., posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 10:33:57
Hi Nikki - luv you muchly hunny. I hope you're doing better each & every day. I send you luv & you're in my thoughts.
Hope you're taking especially good care of your self.
MUCH LOVE, Kath
Unless you text message me, this is obviously not about you.
>
> I ahve left ASH for personal reasons I do NOT want to go into here... Strangely enough, I am having a very har dtime at the moment and have left ALL my yahoo groups for a while. I need time for Nikki and was having a hard time at another group, and took the decision to leave them all over christmas.
> I have also pulled back from my real time friends too.
>
> Maybe I am a bad friend. thats how I feel at the moment, and thats what this was about.
>
> This is about ME and MY feelings, not you. I am having to distance myself from suicidal people, yes, because I am so close to the edge myself right now I simply can't talk about it to others.
>
> I'm not seeing things clearly, I know that, which is why I ahve pulled away from everyone. I don't want to have to hold personal conversations as people are making me angry, for no reason other than my head state, and I hate being angry toward people.
>
> OK, I accept I worded this all wrong, and maybe should ahve found some other site to post it, but I hav ebeen here a long time now, and felt I could come here for some support when needed without massive feelings of guilt.
>
> The friend is now in hospital after someone else called the services in her area. I hope she is getting the help she needs.
>
> I desperately, desperately, don't want to lose ANY friends.. especially you... so I thought distancing myself would be best for all concerned.
>
> I recived a christmas card from you this mroning. It was incredibly special and made me cry for the way we both feel right now.
>
> Tina. You nkow I don't say I love you easily, but I do love you... and I will be there for you in a million ways as soon as I can.
> I have gone back on mediaction (only 2 days into it though) and hope to be more calm and stuff very soon.
>
> I ahven't maile dyou as you asked, at ASH, for none of us to do that. maybe I hsould have ignored you, but I was trying to follow your wishes - ever hopeful you will get through this time.
>
> Please wait for me to get past this... please...
>
> Nikki xxxxxx
Posted by kath on December 17, 2002, at 20:20:46
In reply to Re: Guilt--Wendy » ROO, posted by NikkiT2 on December 13, 2002, at 16:38:02
Nikkity - I hope you know you can email me any time. I would be able to hear if you felt suicidal without feeling manipulated. But be warned, I couldn't stand the thought of you not being around, so I'd try to talk you out of it.
Luv ya, Kath xoxoxo
> "When is telling friends how you are feeling going over into the line of being
> manipulative? I wanna know because I don't want to be manipulative"
>
> It felt manipulative when I was threatened with her suicide.. when i felt if I didn;t do x or y, then she would do it, and I would be to blame. When the pressure of whethr she lived or died was on MY head... I felt manipulated then...
>
> Hope this helps... I am terrified of making someone feel like that, that is probably the main reason why I can't call out when I am suicidal.
>
> Nikki
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.