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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by pinkeye on March 22, 2005, at 21:47:18
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 22, 2005, at 21:26:36
Is it possible that it comes from a freudian view - that kids sometimes confuse their fathers with husband, and they develop some form of disfunctional view of sex? My therapist says that I have it too. That I confused my fahter with my husband, because we shared a pretty close relationship. She tells me it makes me want men who I cannot have, and not want men whom I can have.
Could yours be triggered by something like that? I remember you saying in a thread that you had a pretty deep relationship with your father. Maybe you confused him for your companion growing up and then since it was so taboo a thing, just developed an overall hate for sex? I am shooting completely in the dark, but I am trying to extrapolate what my thearpist told me. I think you also mentioned that you are fat - I used to be fat too, and I think some of it was my desire to perceive myself as being unlikeable - beucase thinking of myself as a healthy sexual person was little difficult - but that was long back though.
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 5:49:35
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on March 22, 2005, at 21:47:18
Well, I wasn't fat when this all started. I actually had a very nice body and was proud of it. I only got fat when I had my baby then shortly after went on psych meds. And since I lost 100% of the baby weight in postpartum depression, I'm going to assume this extra fifty pounds is psych med weight. Although I often think I like being fat because it makes me invisible. But does nothing to make me less attractive to my husband as he's always been impressed with full figured women.
As to my father, I don't know. I suppose it's possible. It's also possible that it's caused by my mother's overdisclosure of sexual matters. And given my dissociative abilities, I don't think I can completely rule out the possibility of anything happening, especially before age 4 1/2. Nothing continual or ongoing, but perhaps something. Especially since an incident was well documented when there was some bleeding. At age three, possibly four. Nothing I'll ever remember though.
I don't know that I'll ever know the reason. But I hate to have my husband live with the consequences. It's just so hard to override the instinctual response.
Posted by sunny10 on March 23, 2005, at 8:28:13
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 5:49:35
Dinah,
How could there be a documented incident if there was no abuse? Now, by "abuse", I use it purely as a medical phrase here.In some way, it seems that your genitals were abused. No matter who caused that physical abuse to your genitals- it happened. I'm sure there was pain involved- whether that be physical pain only (it was an accident), or physical and emotional pain (because it would have been someone you knew).
I'm not sure whether I believe hypnosis works, but I know I would try it- just to have them try to banish the aversion; whether you want to "know what happened" or not is an entirely different issue.
Would you truly like to make the aversion go away, or do you feel it "protects you" in some way? I definitely feel that you should go over this again and again with your T until you get some peace.
((((((((((Dinah))))))))))))))
Wish I could give you that hug in person...
Posted by pinkeye on March 23, 2005, at 12:51:45
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 5:49:35
Have you tried other form of therapy to bring out the unconscious stuff? Maybe a brief visit to a psychodynamic or something like that? CBT operates too much on a rational level - it might be helpful to try to supplement some alternate form of therapy for a brief period to see if that would help.
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 17:35:33
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on March 23, 2005, at 12:51:45
I don't think there is any memory to uncover. Whatever happened that day is just lost. I remember the evening, when my mother and grandmother questioned me. My mother tells me she brought me to my pediatrician, but not until the next week when she could arrange a day off (we lived in the country and she worked a long way away) and that he saw nothing amiss.
I think it's just gone forever.
My therapist is opposed to hypnosis for me because of my dissociative tendencies.
Posted by pinkeye on March 23, 2005, at 18:00:29
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger), posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 17:35:33
Maybe then you just have an extremely low sex drive. But that would probably mean disinterst - not aversion.
Maybe you should see lot of good romantic movies and listen to lot of romantic songs and maybe even try to fantasize?
Posted by Toph on March 23, 2005, at 18:05:32
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger), posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 17:35:33
Dinah, people with dissociative disorders who protect themselves from past traumas, could they also separate themselves psychologically from their bodies? And people with this disorder who sometimes develop alternate personalities, could they have a sexual self and an alternative asexual self whereby in therapy there could be a melding of these personality styles?
Toph
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 23:02:33
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 23, 2005, at 18:05:32
There were a couple of years in my life where my sexuality was not only active but outwardly directed. Two out of fortytwo isn't all that positive I'm afraid.
But even in those two years, I still had the aversion. It was ego-dystonic in those years. I couldn't figure out why, when I wanted to phsyically get close to guys, I panicked and ran from a simple good night peck. One guy stuck it out for me for three dates. Other than that, I was a one date girl.
There seemed to be an exemption for my now husband for a time. I was so happy. I thought my troubles were over. But gradually I quit being "Happy Dinah" and started being just plain me again, and with it the exemption he had seemed to vanish. He still thinks I reeled him in under false pretenses, though since I was myself for a good eleven years between when I stopped being "Happy Dinah" and we got engaged I think that's a bit of an unfair accusation.
Posted by anastasia56 on March 23, 2005, at 23:05:48
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 23, 2005, at 18:05:32
dinah,
let me preface this by saying i know this is not the right solution long term but it does pose an interesting conundrum. That being said, Ambien can have memory (amnesia) side effects, as you may know. You won't do anything on ambien that you would normally not do tho...i.e. it won't make you a zombie. How do you think you would feel about sex if you didn't remember doing it?
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 23:15:27
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger), posted by anastasia56 on March 23, 2005, at 23:05:48
Wow. It does? I'm surprised they allow people to take it.
I don't know how I'd feel. I'm not sure it's the remembering that I mind. But a strong enough tranquilizer might calm the flight instinct. Klonopin doesn't cut it. I used to drink just to make sex possible physically. Maybe I should just go back to using alchohol.
Posted by sunny10 on March 24, 2005, at 8:42:03
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » anastasia56, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 23:15:27
Posted by Toph on March 24, 2005, at 9:10:59
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Toph, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 23:02:33
I am so impressed with your courage and openness about something so personal, Dinah. I think that many couples struggle with the changes that occur in a relationship, particularly how sex and intimacy intertwine or unravels. There's the act, and the act as an expression of love. It's nice when they occur simulateously, but often they are separate. In the beginning of a relationship both experiences, sex and love, are so intense that I think we assume that they are mutual and related in a way that is not always sustainable over time. The love that has developed between my wife and I has deepened since we first became a couple, though the passion has become considerably more episodic. I wish you the best.
Toph
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 29, 2005, at 12:29:04
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Toph, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 23:02:33
Dinah - If anyone tried to have sex with me at this point in my life, I would most definately barf on them. So, maybe you could try that technique? It might stave off future advances?
Firm handshake,
emmy
Posted by Spriggy on April 5, 2005, at 11:28:17
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Dinah, posted by TofuEmmy on March 29, 2005, at 12:29:04
I've been married almost 7 years and although I have nothing but admiration, respect, and love for my husband since I began this "depression/anxiety" phase of my life, my libido/ desire is TOTALLY gone.
BUT, I realize something with my husband... it's not just a "physical" need for him. It really is an emotional/connection for him to me.
I think of it this way:
Women need to be close to have sex,
men HAVE sex to feel close.My husband is very sensitive and has been very caring/compassionate to me during this time and has often put his sexual needs aside. BUT, there are times when it is just something HE has to have; like food or water (for my man at least!).
I try to think of it as his way of connecting with me and feeling LOVED BY me. I feel his love by the way he hugs me, affirms me with his words, helps out around the house.. REally and truly, the one way he responds to my love for him, is through intimacy.
SOOO... without being too specific (wink), when there are times he has his needs but I don't feel up to it- I just use "other" methods without intercourse to allow him to feel that connection.
If you need more details, you can babblemail me or call 1-800-hotmomma. LOL
Just know I get where you are it.. I understand it's a tough thing to overcome. I've had a life long issue with overcoming sexual abuse and past very unhealthy sexual relationships (from my teen years). It's not something that happens overnight.
It's a battle I fight sometimes daily, but I believe it's a battle that can be won.
((HUGS)) (but don't worry-- no kisses!). *wink
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2005, at 19:42:18
In reply to Dinah, posted by Spriggy on April 5, 2005, at 11:28:17
That's what my therapist suggested, and it seems to be working, at least short term. He also suggested that I keep my lips unavailable. :)
I of course want to do everything I should as a good wife, and to help my husband feel loved and connected with me. I did avoidance most of our courtship, and explicitly promised I wouldn't once we were married. I stick pretty well to that promise. I don't think he has much of a clue, other than pain which I can't hide. He even comments on my eagerness.
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2005, at 19:43:03
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Dinah, posted by TofuEmmy on March 29, 2005, at 12:29:04
Unfortunately, that would involve my *other* phobia. :)
Posted by Tamar on April 13, 2005, at 20:38:35
In reply to Sex again. Sigh., posted by Dinah on March 22, 2005, at 18:30:05
Dinah, I realise I’m coming late to this post, but I’ve had some similar problems and I was touched by your words.
Several things occurred to me:
Do you find your husband physically attractive? Do you look at him and find him appealing? If so, then perhaps things could become easier for you. If not, have you *ever* found him attractive, and can you imagine feeling attracted to him? I think it would be difficult to find a solution if you just don’t find him at all attractive.
Moreover, it’s not just your husband who is living with the consequences of your aversion to sex. You’re also living with the consequences. It causes you anxiety, and you don’t get the enjoyment that other people get from sex with a partner. You may not feel you’re missing out, but nevertheless you do express concern for the state of your marriage. Marriage tends to be characterised as an institution in which both parties can find pleasure in each other’s bodies.
I have no memory of any sexual abuse in my childhood, but I have a lot of the symptoms, including an aversion to sex, kissing, touching and so on. I found that the advice given to survivors of CSA was helpful to me, even though I don’t identify myself as a victim/survivor of CSA. However, I suspect that my aversion was not as extensive as yours.
However, the bottom line for me (i.e. the thing that made sex possible and even enjoyable) was communication with my husband, and I sense that you are reluctant to tell your husband the truth about how you feel about sex. I suppose at this point your husband might think that your whole history as a couple was based on an untruth. On the other hand, I can’t imagine how you might begin to feel comfortable with his touch unless he understands what is at stake for you. My husband absolutely had to understand why I was dodging his kisses in order to help me to feel safe (even though I don’t even know why I needed to feel safe).
I wonder if you are looking for a solution that would make sexual contact more comfortable for you without admitting to your husband how you really feel. Maybe it would be more profitable to find ways of communicating your aversion without making it seem like your husband’s fault. However, I know that’s a big risk to take.
Does all this make any sense? If I’m out of line I humbly apologise.
Tamar
Posted by Susan47 on April 17, 2005, at 13:18:47
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 13, 2005, at 20:38:35
Reading what you posted made me feel really incredible, because it's so true of me. I've never been sexually attracted to any man I could have, ever .. is this where it comes from? Because I know many many women who feel this way .. and my worst fear is the man I'm most attracted to now, if he ever approached me, I would draw away, maybe not immediately, but maybe I would find out there's nothing really there, that I'm incapable of being sexually attracted to anyone, really and truly, ever again. Sigh. This is a hell of a thing to have to live with. Because there're guys who are sexually attracted to me, but I don't want them. Not completely. Not even to chance to risk of going for a walk with any of them. Because they always seem to go silly so fast. It's amazing to watch a guy you liked having a rapport with kind of get silly and moony, and you're just like, oh no. Oh no oh no oh no oh no. So then the ones who Don't do that, the ones who're stiff and cold, they're super attractive .. or not. Lately, they're really not. Wow, hmm. My last husband was not attractive to me at all, not one bit, physically. And in the end when he touched me, I hated it.
Posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 5:12:06
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Tamar, posted by Susan47 on April 17, 2005, at 13:18:47
Hi Susan,
Yeah, I know what you mean. And I’ve read that it’s common for people who’ve had traumatic experiences to have problems sexually with their partners, but no problem with strangers. I don’t know if that applies to you, but I think it makes sense in general. There’s something about the familiarity of sexual contact that feels uncomfortable and distressing, whereas unfamiliarity is more likely to be free of unpleasant associations.
However, I’m married; I want to be a sexually fulfilled woman, and I want my husband to be part of that. It’s a constant struggle for me. But I tend to think that half the problem with finding men attractive is about my attitude to myself. I need to feel I deserve it. At the moment I feel as if I owe it to myself to find sexual pleasure with my husband, so it’s worth it to me to keep trying.
Tamar
Posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 9:19:01
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Susan47, posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 5:12:06
That you said about familiarity of sexual contact being distressing, that's true for me. Because I want my body to please, but I'm not sure it does, not at all, and that's not even supposed to be an issue. I can't go to bed with someone who's unfamiliar to me, either, that's even more uncomfortable. And immensely unsatisfying. I learned that in my younger years. I think for men and women both there's a lot more to sex than just getting off. I was doing some reading last night and suddenly remembered this man I was with, I remember, through my reading, because my mind seems to have blocked it out without a stimulus, but I remembered that he gave me my one and only orgasm with a man, and I remember that he was very attentive, very much so, very caring, it was almost like he put a spell on me, a spell wherein I felt completely safe, completely cared for, in my body yet out of it at the same time, and it was incredible, it really was like a spell. There was so much trust. And something awful, really terrible happened to this relationship. Very quickly after that things went very very bad. And he turned out to be selfish and mean... so is there hope that I can ever sustain something like that IRL again? I don't know.
Posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:15
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Susan47, posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 5:12:06
Maybe you can your husband can work on that spell thing happening. I can find it for you if you want a description. It's very amazing, what can happen between two people when you create this.
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 23:31:52
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 13, 2005, at 20:38:35
If I were to describe my "type" I'd pretty much describe my husband. Blonde, crinkly blue eyes, long fingers, gold arm hair curling over the watch band. He just gets better with age. He's much more attractive now than he was in high school.
He's got a lot of the personality qualities I find sexy too. Integrity, wit, intelligence. He used to use his humor a lot more often than he does now, but he's still a funny guy.
I will say that our marriage functions best with the communications kept at a relatively polite level. When we delve deep, we tend to get in trouble. Because despite our similarities, which tend to be glaring, we have some fundamental differences in emotional styles that would be a problem if we looked closely enough at them.
So I don't think being too honest is a good option for us. My therapist thinks that's sad. I'm not so sure.
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 23:43:37
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Tamar, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 23:31:52
I'll readily agree that the emotional differences contribute to the problem.
Not that I'd have any less of a problem with the physical aspect of sex, I think that's so deeply ingrained I just as well consider it hard wired.
But I think if my feelings about my husband were unconflicted, the greater degree of love and desire to give would make the entire experience more tolerable.
I feel horrible saying that. He's a really good man. He provides for us well. He's a hands on father. He does whatever he can to make sure that things run smoothly for me.
He's really terrific.
But he can make me feel so very bad about myself so very often. Like water on rock. How can I love everything about him but the way he makes me and my son feel about ourselves? Which is something he grasps periodically but promptly puts out of his mind and refuses to change. Because it's more important to him to make sure we behave ourselves in the way he wishes us to behave than it is...
Oh well. He's as hard on himself as he is on us, and I reap many rewards from that aspect of it.
I'm very lucky to have him, and I could never make it without him, on any level.
Posted by Tamar on April 20, 2005, at 5:52:06
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Tamar, posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 9:19:01
> That you said about familiarity of sexual contact being distressing, that's true for me. Because I want my body to please, but I'm not sure it does, not at all, and that's not even supposed to be an issue. I can't go to bed with someone who's unfamiliar to me, either, that's even more uncomfortable. And immensely unsatisfying. I learned that in my younger years. I think for men and women both there's a lot more to sex than just getting off. I was doing some reading last night and suddenly remembered this man I was with, I remember, through my reading, because my mind seems to have blocked it out without a stimulus, but I remembered that he gave me my one and only orgasm with a man, and I remember that he was very attentive, very much so, very caring, it was almost like he put a spell on me, a spell wherein I felt completely safe, completely cared for, in my body yet out of it at the same time, and it was incredible, it really was like a spell. There was so much trust. And something awful, really terrible happened to this relationship. Very quickly after that things went very very bad. And he turned out to be selfish and mean... so is there hope that I can ever sustain something like that IRL again? I don't know.
Well, I suppose you know that it is possible to have an orgasm with a man. That seems worth knowing! And not only that, but trust as well. Maybe there has to be trust for the orgasm thing to work, but trust alone isn't the key. You mentioned safety and I think that's very important too. It's all so incredibly complicated!
Posted by Tamar on April 20, 2005, at 5:56:22
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Tamar, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 23:31:52
> If I were to describe my "type" I'd pretty much describe my husband. Blonde, crinkly blue eyes, long fingers, gold arm hair curling over the watch band. He just gets better with age. He's much more attractive now than he was in high school.
Well, that’s a good start!
> He's got a lot of the personality qualities I find sexy too. Integrity, wit, intelligence. He used to use his humor a lot more often than he does now, but he's still a funny guy.
Also a good sign, I reckon.
> I will say that our marriage functions best with the communications kept at a relatively polite level. When we delve deep, we tend to get in trouble. Because despite our similarities, which tend to be glaring, we have some fundamental differences in emotional styles that would be a problem if we looked closely enough at them.
And you’ve lived with these differences for some years. So you’re used to it.
> So I don't think being too honest is a good option for us. My therapist thinks that's sad. I'm not so sure.
Well, there’s no point making life too difficult. But then again, there is this one area that you seem to feel isn’t ideal, and if talking honestly about it isn’t possible, then it looks as if you need a one-person solution to a two-person problem. And that’s difficult, though probably not impossible. It does mean, though, that you have to do all the work and he gets a sizeable portion of the reward. However, you’re clearly a generous person, so I’m guessing you wouldn’t resent that.
When you described the physical problems with sex as hard wired, it really struck a chord with me. I don’t think my aversion ever went as deep as the aversion you describe, but it did feel hard wired.
I could tell you some of the techniques that worked for me – I dunno if they’d work for you. And I should say that my sex life isn’t perfect, but it used to be awful and now it’s enjoyable, so that makes a great deal of difference to my marriage. If you think hearing my story could be helpful I’d happily share it.
Tamar
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