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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on December 10, 2010, at 0:58:54
I feel so awful. I just need to concentrate for another 6 or so days to complete all of the hard work I have mangaged to get done this semester.
But I can't concentrate. I had a session yesterday, and feel like I need to be there again; it feels like it was so long ago. I talk to myself in my head all the time, and when in my room out loud-- it is a conversation often with my therapist, though he is not really here. It is very distracting to me and wastes a lot of my time and emotions. But in that I tell him how I really feel. I feel so angry tonight-- in general, but also I feel angry towards him. My feelings towards him tend to fluctuate between being a feeling of totally loving him very deeply in which he seems like God here to save or a feeling of being very angry in that he is gone, like he never did really care and all of my desires for him to care are imagined and fake and I am in an unfair bondage to him. The anger is not grounded in anything that is reasonable; I think it is something of a transference from other relationships. But I am afraid if I tell him of my love and anger then he will be put-off and will emotionally withdraw.
This feels so awaful. I am fighting so hard the need to binge. Right now in my mind-- and for the last 2 weeks-- I have been fighting the urge to go buy a tub of icing and eat it. I could go right now. And I can already feel myself losing control, buying it, eating it, feeling sick, going to bed, and feeling like sh*t in the morning. And the cycle will repeat. I feel awful. I need to eat and bury this. But I know it's not going to help me in the long run; and actually, it will make me more sick.
I am already experiencing some of the effects of sugar abuse from years past. Aside from this past year, the worst hell year of my life was my senior year of high school. To make it through each day, I used to binge on everything available-- eating pure powdered sugar by the spoonful or mixing it with milk, tubs of icing and ice cream, rolls of cookie dough-- sometimes making cookie dough and eating it, candy bars-- sometimes going to the store at night to buy 3 bars and eat them as fast as possible, fries, pizza, chocolate, cakes, cheese, sticks of butter. I always ate these in secret, in the dark of the kitchen, in the corner of the laundry room, in my room, hiding the remains under my bed. In the 3 intervening years, this has gotten better, but still inserts its haunting presence and effects in times of stress and feeling trapped and has never left, like now. I have some minor blood sugar problems emerging now too. When I went for a 2-hr glucose test at the doctor this past June, my score was in the pre-diabetic stage-- not too bad but to be watched. Every morning when I get up, I have a terrible dry mouth, and if I eat even minimal sweets now (i.e. a piece of cake or esp if I were to buy that tub of icing and eat it) I would get a dry mouth and feel dizzy and tingly to various degrees depending on the amount consumed.
I don't know how this will ever stop. I feel out of control. I feel angry. This is so awful. I don't feel like I can wait for another 6 days to see my therapist, and even if I do make it there again, the cycle is going to repeat itself. And I am leaving town for Christmas and will be gone for at least 3 weeks with no sessions. I can't make it. And when I come back in Jan, I only have until May, and then I finish at my university. I guess I could stay in my city for a while, but don't know if I can financially. I have to find a place to stay and a job. I feel driven like a magnet back to my parents home 5 hrs away-- but that feels like annihilation and the death of everything that has happened here for me away from them.
Basically I feel hopeless; I am NEVER going to get better. We have no hope as humans. There is no God. The only person who can help me I will not be around to work with much longer; and maybe my idealization of him is not right-- maybe he can't save. This is never going to end. I can't even make it through the f-cking weekend. This is never going to get better.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on December 10, 2010, at 23:44:45
In reply to awful and binging, posted by Annabelle Smith on December 10, 2010, at 0:58:54
no thoughts or advice?
Posted by Annabelle Smith on December 10, 2010, at 23:53:00
In reply to no thoughts?, posted by Annabelle Smith on December 10, 2010, at 23:44:45
Also, I can give an update. I made it through last night without buying the icing. But today was like every other day, constantly thinking about everything I eat; feeling good when I restrict and then having my frustrating moments when I let it go and take something that is bad.
As for waiting for my session, it has been an emotional roller-coaster. I have been able to concentrate and get a little work done today. But my obessional, desperate thoughts come and go, like a constant process of being in flux. I need to make it until Wed at 4pm, although I know this attitude of dependency is not healthy and is just making me hurt so much worse.
Also, I got a book today in the mail that my therapist had suggested to me. It is called "Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills Workbook." That is the kind of therapy that my therapist is trained in and likes to use, in conjunction with mindfulness/radical acceptance practices, in our sessions. The book offers helpful ideas to self-soothe, cope, and live with intense emotions. Reading through it makes me feel more indepedent-- scary, good, depressing, hopeful and all of the above. But it is a coping mechanism that I will hopefully be able to put into practice, at least to calm some of this stuff down so I can make it through what I have to do and work well with him to get to the real issues in therapy sessions.
Posted by obsidian on December 11, 2010, at 9:48:18
In reply to Re: no thoughts?, posted by Annabelle Smith on December 10, 2010, at 23:53:00
hey,
to me it sounds like you were playing the tape through about the sugar indulging stuff. You will feel awful, definitely physically! after indulging in that extreme sweetness.
and crappy in general about yourself
that self soothing stuff could be helpfulI've seen it said a lot here...
maybe you might want to show that first post to your T?
be well,
sid
Posted by Annabelle Smith on December 11, 2010, at 14:15:17
In reply to Re: no thoughts? » Annabelle Smith, posted by obsidian on December 11, 2010, at 9:48:18
Thanks, Sid,
It's all that I can think about-- feeling so big and needing to lose weight. Sometimes I feel like it is worth anything to be really thin; if I could just go a while without eating; skip one meal a day and cut down from there; I've thought about the syrup, but have researched it a ton and there are lots of risks with it-- it might be a way to go. Last year, I lost my appetite with depression and lost a very noticeable amount of weight. I literally couldn't eat. Now I feel so terribly anxious, that I all want to do is eat.
One more thing. I am having a hard time with how to think about my therapist. I've written on here before about the over-idealization and dependency. I know that the way I see him is not how he really is, and what I want him to be, he can't be. He can't care and be present in the way that I want him to be. I can't make it without him-- to leave feels like death. I find myself wanting to be just like him, what he does, what he thinks, how he acts: I see his degree from NY in his office, and it makes me idealize NYC and want to go there for grad school (I am applying to a seminary there, but not, I think or hope, just because of this), I sometimes pretend to be like him in my interactions with others-- using words and mannerisms like he uses. I have drawn an entire web of associations to him-- things related to this fall make me think of him; I have even idealized other people-- like my professor who is the pyschotherapist who knows my therapist. And when I see this prof, I see my therapist. He is even someone that I would idealize outside of therapy-- as a person, I think he's really cool. I look at his bookshelf, and he has all of these books on postmodern philosophy, existentialism, religion, and psychoanalysis. I feel a connection to him just through this.
This is really bad. In one of our class/seminar sessions in the post-Freudian theory class I was taking this term, the professor told the class something that I will share here. We read an entire book on idealization/over-idealization and religion. In relation to this, my professor said that IT [being over-idealized by a patient] THANKFULLY DOESN'T HAPPEN OFTEN, BUT WHEN HE IS HIGHLY IDEALIZED BY A CLIENT, HE BECOMES VERY CONCERNED. First of all, the way I feel doesn't happen often-- it's pathological? Secondly, I bet my therapist shares my professor's sentiments, but would NEVER tell me. How do I stop??? I have tried to read books and literature on attachment theory to fix it myself, but I can't! I can't think my way out of this, it is something much more deep, primal, and emotional. What is wrong??
I can already see the day that I have to tell him bye forever, and this feels like it will hurt me maybe more than therapy has been able to help me.
I feel so enraged and jealous and out of control. My secret is that I feel jealous not so much of the other clients but really the other students who work with my therapist. We've already talked on here how he gave me the option to work with him after he left the counseling center last spring. I don't know what I was thinking, but probably that I didn't think I could afford it, so I started working with another therapist. I am so jealous of the other students who went with him since August. If I had done that, I might be a lot better off now. But I lost all of that time. I want to know who these other students are-- I probably see them everyday across campus. I am so jealous of them, and the more they are like me, the more jealous I feel. I really can't tell my therapist this-- it is so selfish. But I feel jealous of people a lot.
Posted by Solstice on December 11, 2010, at 16:52:19
In reply to Re: thoughts and over-attachment/ idealization, posted by Annabelle Smith on December 11, 2010, at 14:15:17
>
> This is really bad.Annabelle - -
Read some stuff on Attachment Theory and Object Relations Theory.
What you're describing sounds like you might be attempting to internalize your therapist - which is a good thing - not a bad thing. It's an even better good thing that you are very aware of what's taking place inside you.
If you read about those two things, it might help you feel less 'bad' about what you're feeling - - which might help you get the most out of the process. I think it also might help if you can talk to your therapist about how worried you are about it. If you can't say the words, then hand him the posts you've written. When you find out that he understands it, and doesn't think it's *weird* or *bad* - maybe that will soothe you.
It has helped me a lot to be as open as possible with my therapist about things like that.
Solstice
Posted by Annabelle Smith on December 11, 2010, at 18:43:52
In reply to Re: thoughts and over-attachment/ idealization, posted by Solstice on December 11, 2010, at 16:52:19
Thank you, Solstice.
What about the jealousy??
Posted by Solstice on December 11, 2010, at 20:45:29
In reply to Re: thoughts and over-attachment/ idealization, posted by Annabelle Smith on December 11, 2010, at 18:43:52
> Thank you, Solstice.
>
> What about the jealousy??I am puzzled by your therapist offering to let you work with him after he left the school. It's generally not considered appropriate for a therapist to have that kind of relationship with a former client, unless a LOT of time has passed. I cannot imagine how complex it would be for me to work with or for my therapist post-therapy. I think the therapeutic bond between therapist and client runs very deep and endures beyond the therapy. I think my therapist, if we had a working relationship post-therapy, would probably struggle with feeling a therapeutic responsibility toward me, and likewise I think that I would not be able to set aside my therapeutic expectations of the relationship. So maybe it is a good thing that you didn't take him up on the offer. You aren't done with your therapy - and he's the one you need as your therapist. I think it's as it should be.
As for your jealousy of the students who did take him up on the offer, I think those feelings are developmental and not terribly uncomon for therapy clients... especially for someone in your age group. If you go thru the archives, you'll find jealousy a common theme in therapeutic relationships... jealous of the therapist's wife, children, friends. Jealous of anyone with a 'closer' or more permanent relationship.
I think the jealousy you're describing subsides over time.. along with finding yourself - maturity - growing in your therapeutic relationship. Talk about it with him. What you are doing is classic for those of us with attachment issues.
Be kind to yourself.
Solstice
Posted by Annabelle Smith on December 11, 2010, at 21:01:04
In reply to Re: thoughts and over-attachment/ idealization, posted by Solstice on December 11, 2010, at 20:45:29
Thanks, Solstice,
but oops...I don't think I was clear. When I said "work" with him, I meant work as in "continue to be in therapy" with him-- the work of being in therapy. My therapist sometimes refers to therapy as "work."
While he was at the counseling center, he also maintained a private practice on the side. When he left the center, he went to full-time private practice. He offered his clients at the center (including me) the opportunity to continue to do therapy with him in his private practice. The only thing would be that there would be a fee, whereas if I stayed at the counseling center, I could see a new therapist for free. Because I didn't realize how attached I was to him-- I thought the feelings would go away-- and because I am not that wealthy, I thought it would be best to stay at the center and work with a therapist there. This did not work out-- remember back to all of the posts we exchanged about what you called the toxic T? I ended up going back into therapy with the original therapist in his private practice, paying what is for me a do-able fee now on a sliding scale.
The jealousy comes in that there were some students who were clients of his at the center who went straight to doing therapy with him in his private practice and were not transferred to a new therapist. That's what I wish I had done. He gave me the choice, and I feel like I made the wrong one and am jealous of the others who got to have the sessions this past fall that I wish I had also gotten to have.
Also, I wouldn't say that I am jealous of those with a more permanent relationship to him-- I don't want that. I am just jealous of the other students who got to be in therapy with him longer when that is what I needed to, but just made the wrong choice.
Thanks for you thoughts. Sorry I wasn't clear.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on December 11, 2010, at 21:15:05
In reply to Re: thoughts and over-attachment/ idealization, posted by Annabelle Smith on December 11, 2010, at 21:01:04
so, the jealousy is towards the other clients, but in particular towards the other student clients, who are probably more like me. The more like me they are, the more jealous I will feel. That's my secret that I would feel so embarrassed to tell him.
I have always thought to myself that I never want to see another client leave and have to encounter the person in passing. This was especially how I felt at the counseling center-- I didn't want to have to see another student leave a session.
Maybe this is something about the desire Pegasus talks about in another post of wanting to have him be a therapist all to mysefl-- wanting his total care and not having to share. I know that is so unreasonable, but I think you right, that it points to deeper attachment issues. I have read some on attachment theory and quite a bit on ORT. I actually understand a lot of this on an intellectual level, but emotionally can't even begin to get through it all.
Posted by Solstice on December 11, 2010, at 21:39:28
In reply to Re: thoughts and over-attachment/ idealization, posted by Annabelle Smith on December 11, 2010, at 21:01:04
> Thanks, Solstice,
>
> but oops...I don't think I was clear. When I said "work" with him, I meant work as in "continue to be in therapy" with him-- the work of being in therapy. My therapist sometimes refers to therapy as "work."
>
Ohhhh! Well that does make a difference!I wholly understand that you'd regret the loss of the the months you didn't have him. I have a similar situation in my story. I was in a toxic therapeutic relationship that escalated ih the harm it was causing me - but it took me soooo long to extract myself. When I finally did that, I bore a lot of regret - grieved the lost years of my life that I could have been in the therapy that has provided me so much healing.
You did the best you could when you made your choice to stay. It would have been an overall wise choice if your new therapist had been as skilled as the one you lost. You probably would have been able to transfer trust to the new therapist. You had no way of knowing that you'd end up with a therapist who left you feeling worse.
TYou cannot change what has passed, so there is nothing to be gained by allowing yourself to stew in regret. The only thing you can do now is feel good about having been able to get back with the 'good' therapist.
I am someone who can tend to stay in my head and review the past way too much. I want to tell you something that helps me monitor how that affects me - prevents me from letting it take me into a downward spiral: What you water, grows. If you water the weeds - they will be happy to take over. If you water hope, care for others, faith in the 'good', belief in yourself, healthy relationships that raise your level of well-being - - if you water those things, they will grow. As a young adult, you are learning how to take control of your future. So from an older adult - I want to encourage you to take care to water what helps you, and starve what doesn't.. and I'm talking about where you allow your thoughts to dwell.
Solstice
> While he was at the counseling center, he also maintained a private practice on the side. When he left the center, he went to full-time private practice. He offered his clients at the center (including me) the opportunity to continue to do therapy with him in his private practice. The only thing would be that there would be a fee, whereas if I stayed at the counseling center, I could see a new therapist for free. Because I didn't realize how attached I was to him-- I thought the feelings would go away-- and because I am not that wealthy, I thought it would be best to stay at the center and work with a therapist there. This did not work out-- remember back to all of the posts we exchanged about what you called the toxic T? I ended up going back into therapy with the original therapist in his private practice, paying what is for me a do-able fee now on a sliding scale.
>
> The jealousy comes in that there were some students who were clients of his at the center who went straight to doing therapy with him in his private practice and were not transferred to a new therapist. That's what I wish I had done. He gave me the choice, and I feel like I made the wrong one and am jealous of the others who got to have the sessions this past fall that I wish I had also gotten to have.
>
> Also, I wouldn't say that I am jealous of those with a more permanent relationship to him-- I don't want that. I am just jealous of the other students who got to be in therapy with him longer when that is what I needed to, but just made the wrong choice.
>
> Thanks for you thoughts. Sorry I wasn't clear.
Posted by Solstice on December 11, 2010, at 21:45:45
In reply to Re: thoughts and over-attachment/ idealization, posted by Annabelle Smith on December 11, 2010, at 21:15:05
> so, the jealousy is towards the other clients, but in particular towards the other student clients, who are probably more like me. The more like me they are, the more jealous I will feel. That's my secret that I would feel so embarrassed to tell him.
>
> I have always thought to myself that I never want to see another client leave and have to encounter the person in passing. This was especially how I felt at the counseling center-- I didn't want to have to see another student leave a session.
>
> Maybe this is something about the desire Pegasus talks about in another post of wanting to have him be a therapist all to mysefl-- wanting his total care and not having to share. I know that is so unreasonable, but I think you right, that it points to deeper attachment issues. I have read some on attachment theory and quite a bit on ORT. I actually understand a lot of this on an intellectual level, but emotionally can't even begin to get through it all.
:-) What you're talking about here is pretty universal in therapy-dom. Some therapists are real sensitive to their clients' need to feel they have them all to theirself - and have separate doors for one client to come into the waiting room, and the one leaving to leave thru a separate door.. with the goal being that they won't run into each other. I think *most* clients want to feel they are the only one tapping into their therapist's therapeutic care.You are NORMAL, darllin.
Solstice
Posted by emmanuel98 on December 12, 2010, at 1:20:18
In reply to Re: thoughts and over-attachment/ idealization, posted by Annabelle Smith on December 11, 2010, at 21:15:05
> That's my secret that I would feel so embarrassed to tell him.
>
Keeping secrets from your T makes you unhappy and keeps him in the dark. Sharing what embarrasses you forces you to be honest and upfront about your emotions and helps you learn to be more emotionally self-aware. I doubt it would shock him to learn how you feel or make him think you are pathetic. Most T's are well aware that therapy often makes people feel dependent, attached, jealous, etc. Working through these emotions with your T is the whole point of therapy.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 12, 2010, at 2:53:24
In reply to Re: no thoughts?, posted by Annabelle Smith on December 10, 2010, at 23:53:00
> I got a book today in the mail that my therapist had suggested to me. It is called "Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills Workbook."
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, a movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though.
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Solstice on December 12, 2010, at 9:31:21
In reply to Re: thoughts and over-attachment/ idealization, posted by emmanuel98 on December 12, 2010, at 1:20:18
> > That's my secret that I would feel so embarrassed to tell him.
> >
> Keeping secrets from your T makes you unhappy and keeps him in the dark. Sharing what embarrasses you forces you to be honest and upfront about your emotions and helps you learn to be more emotionally self-aware. I doubt it would shock him to learn how you feel or make him think you are pathetic. Most T's are well aware that therapy often makes people feel dependent, attached, jealous, etc. Working through these emotions with your T is the whole point of therapy.
Well said.. Emmanuel. It also gives you the opportunity to find out that your therapist can hear your 'secret' and not be appalled, repelled, or destroyed by it. And you won't walk away feeling like the relationship has been ruined. plus.. you might actually walk away feeling safe.. accepted.. understood..Sol.
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