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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on September 24, 2009, at 1:07:36
I don't know what I want or need.
I keep saying this, over and over in therapy. I flip flop between being angry and frustrated with my therapist and weeping uncontrollably. Could it really be that after all this time, I still can't tolerate the limits inherent to therapy? I wish I knew exactly what I wanted from this relationship. If it was as simple as wanting to seduce him, then I would know it was wrong, that it would never happen and I could get over it.
But instead, it is a mixed up set of feelings that contain feelings of wanting to be special, of wanting to be taken care of, of wanting to not feel so utterly alone and yes - sometimes of wanting him to show me how to have sex without being so afraid of it. Not that he would ever really be allowed to touch me.
We've been able to talk about all these feelings but sometimes I'm really hard on him. I know he is trying to understand it all and he isn't a mind reader - but when he "misses" it is hugely painful - more so than normal. I need him to be perfect and yet I'm looking for ways he isn't. He shared with me today that yesterday was really frustrating for him because he just didn't know what I want from him. Funny - I was thinking the exact same thing - "what do you want from me?!" And because I'm a long term client, I know he has faith in the relationship - yet it kills me to hear him say that he is frustrated or that he feels I'm being hard on him. It makes me want to quit therapy if I'm going to "that" client - the one who creates dread in him.
The trigger yesterday was that I discovered that he'd changed his schedule. I was no longer the first person of the day - I ran into this couple laughing and talking as they left his office. It rattled me. It upset me. It made me feel so damn foolish. And why did I even care? I tried to just tell him I was rattled and brush it aside but it grew and grew into this anger. When we talked about it today, I tried to explain what was lost and I felt this deep grief. He hadn't realized all the layers of this time slot for me - but how could he? I didn't either.
But even as I write this again, I find I'm crying. And I still don't even really know why. I feel like someone died - or something is wrecked. Maybe it is just reality crushing another fantasy.
So - what is it I want from him? What am I struggling with? How do you make it stop hurting so much?
Posted by pegasus on September 24, 2009, at 9:01:40
In reply to Need help understanding these tears, posted by Daisym on September 24, 2009, at 1:07:36
Daisy, I wish I could answer your questions, or provide some kind of comfort. I don't know that anyone can really do that for you, which I think you know. I send you my intention of comfort and support, at any rate.
Two things you said jumped out at me:
1) You are not becoming the client that he dreads, because you had a session (or even lots of sessions) that brought up frustration for him. He is clearly devoted to you, and I am sure that he loves you. After reading your posts for years, I have this deep sense that he could never dread your sessions. My sense is that he probably is eager for them, because each one is a chance to help, which he generally does so well. When he can't figure out how to help, or he does something that cause you pain, there is probably frustration. And that is proof of his devotion and deep desire to help, not something that will push him away from you. He clearly is able to handle this frustration well. My guess is that it motivates him to be creative with you, which he is clearly talented at and which feeds him.
2. Maybe it is reality crushing a fantasy. But it is not *just* reality crushing a fantasy. What I mean is that it's totally OK and valid and understandable for this to throw you, and of course it feels big. I would guess that almost any noticeable change in therapy would feel awful and big. You want/need it to be stable with a capital S, so you can extend from that stability into the hard work that itself sometimes knocks you (one) so far off your own grounding.
I hope those thoughts help in some way. I wish you lots of soothing in our life right now.
peg
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2009, at 10:20:53
In reply to Need help understanding these tears, posted by Daisym on September 24, 2009, at 1:07:36
Maybe part of it *is* that your therapist is so wonderful and so caring. I've often thought that if he were my therapist I'd fall madly and most uncomfortably in love with him. Standing at the bottom of the stairs, or writing that note to you with the object he left you while he was gone. Those are wonderful caring things to do and I admire him so much for doing them. But they may also have stirred up feelings in me of longing and hoping that would have been so painful.
I often wonder if I'm not lucky to have such an imperfect therapist. He carelessly tramples my feelings so many times. If he finds out about it, he might say that I've misunderstood him, or that he's sorry I felt that way (I hate that) but he often acknowledges that what he said did hurt me, and that it is a truth that does hurt. When I cry that I wish this or that, he says "I know" with such humor and warmth that it eases the sting of rejection or boundaries as he'd put it. But rejection and boundaries are still what they are.
I'd see the tears as grief. For what you have a glimpse of but no chance of holding. For the golden dream that will never be. My therapist makes it easy enough to know that outside the therapy room as well as in it, he is no golden dream. If I long for more, I'm brought to the amused realization that I *have* the best of him, for what it's worth. I've heard him talk to his family, and believe me, being his therapee/daughter is way better than the real thing. (Although I'm still madly jealous of his niece.)
One thing I will say is that it wasn't until I totally accepted and grieved what I would never have from him, that I was able to fully embrace what I did have from him. It may not be what I dreamed of, but it's a pretty darn good reality.
Your therapist, what he does give to you, is a pretty darn good reality. But I see why you are as frustrated with what you can't have as I was that I can't have more of those audio clips, instead of rejoicing with what I did find. I could have had twice as much joy.
But Daisy, you do know that he might not be such a great lover? He might not know how to make sex safe or joyous for you. He might come home at the end of the day and snap at his wife and kids. Who he is in the room with you is not all of who he is. But it might be the best part of him. The golden part of him.
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2009, at 10:28:09
In reply to Re: Need help understanding these tears » Daisym, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2009, at 10:20:53
I sorta wish he'd hug you.
I know it's his boundary, but to me it seems a boundary that ends up being more seductive than a hug. It makes his touch seem like something so wonderful and so forbidden that he must deny it to his clients, or that he might find clients sexually appealing enough that he has to deny them contact for fear of falling into their spell.
I know those aren't his reasons. And I do honor anyone's boundaries, for whatever reasons they put them up. If he wouldn't feel comfortable, a hug would be a negative experience for both of you. I don't like to be touched, and I really appreciate it when others respect that.
I just think it's an unfortunate situation. My therapist does hug, whenever I ask for one, though he's quit asking me if I would like one when I seem upset after I answered no on a few occasions. Don't get me wrong. His hugs are great in the way that only the hugs of a really big man can be. The sort of hug that my cousin gave me at Daddy's funeral. But they aren't magic, and being able to have them made them seem less compelling.
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2009, at 11:29:01
In reply to Re: Need help understanding these tears, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2009, at 10:28:09
Which is not at all to say, of course, that you're experiencing the same feelings I did with my therapist, or would with your therapist.
I could definitely be projecting.
Posted by twilight on September 25, 2009, at 10:58:57
In reply to Need help understanding these tears, posted by Daisym on September 24, 2009, at 1:07:36
Well Daisy, I can empathize with your situation. I think the therapy experience is kind of like house hunting. We don't really know what we want sometimes, but we'll know it when we see it (or in the case of therapy, feel it or get it.)
Our emotions and feelings are very complex but one thing is, we are born fully human into this world and sometimes we don't need to understand so much as just 'be' with those feelings. It's OK to be human and to not be able to figure it all out. And to expect perfection from our T's. Boy, that's a common one even though our rational minds know they are fully human like ourselves.
And I think maybe your T wants to 'fix' the problem (wondering how to figure out what you want from him whereas you not really knowing what exactly that is, yourself). Which probably is frustrating for him, because he feels helpless.
It might just be, that the two of you talk about these feeling for awhile, not with the intent of fixing the problem, but just to get it out there in whatever way it comes out.
Daisy it seems to me you are doing a lot of good work with this T ---- keep pushing yourself forward.
Posted by antigua3 on September 25, 2009, at 14:40:19
In reply to Need help understanding these tears, posted by Daisym on September 24, 2009, at 1:07:36
Oh, Daisy, it hurt so much to read this, to know that you are hurting so much, and to recognize and feel those feelings, too.
You described the complex set of feelings so well as horrible as they are when you are in the midst of them.
Maybe you're in one of those push-pull times when you are testing him with all your might, but at the same time you want to be loved and cared for? Just like we did as children, but we didn't have the firm boundaries that our Ts have? But we need to know those boundaries are safe, and that your "specialness' with your T is a different kind of specialness, a very safe and trusting one, a place where you can let all these feelings out and you won't be judged. Because your T is not judging you; he never judges you. You are so lucky because you do know in your heart that he does care very much, but he will never cross those boundaries and as much as you want a special piece of him, you're developing new ways to define that "special piece." It's not the destructive one you experienced as a child or young girl; it's one that is very firm for our own safety. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to trust him as much.
Pls take care. I wish I could help more.
Keep posting if it helps. Do something nice this weekend.
antigua
Posted by Daisym on September 26, 2009, at 19:32:11
In reply to Re: Need help understanding these tears, posted by pegasus on September 24, 2009, at 9:01:40
Daisy, I wish I could answer your questions, or provide some kind of comfort. I don't know that anyone can really do that for you, which I think you know. I send you my intention of comfort and support, at any rate.
***Thanks, Peg. I appreciate the comfort and support
Two things you said jumped out at me:
1) You are not becoming the client that he dreads, because you had a session (or even lots of sessions) that brought up frustration for him. He is clearly devoted to you, and I am sure that he loves you. After reading your posts for years, I have this deep sense that he could never dread your sessions. My sense is that he probably is eager for them, because each one is a chance to help, which he generally does so well. When he can't figure out how to help, or he does something that cause you pain, there is probably frustration. And that is proof of his devotion and deep desire to help, not something that will push him away from you. He clearly is able to handle this frustration well. My guess is that it motivates him to be creative with you, which he is clearly talented at and which feeds him.
***He asked me if perhaps he shouldn't have told me he was frustrated. But we both know I would know anyway so authenticity is so much better. He keeps saying that relationships are about working things out, that momentary frustrations or anger don't undo everything else. He said he wouldn't allow me to push him away but he feels me trying to run away from my own aggression. We also talked about my enhanced ability to introject my anger into someone else and have them express it. I do know that I do this. I can suddenly feel completely free of the anger yet the other person has escalated.
2. Maybe it is reality crushing a fantasy. But it is not *just* reality crushing a fantasy. What I mean is that it's totally OK and valid and understandable for this to throw you, and of course it feels big. I would guess that almost any noticeable change in therapy would feel awful and big. You want/need it to be stable with a capital S, so you can extend from that stability into the hard work that itself sometimes knocks you (one) so far off your own grounding.
****I think you are exactly right - I need stability right now in a huge way. I've move my company and things are really upside down for me. Right now I hate the new office - it doesn't feel safe and I'm grieving the loss of our old space, even as this one is a move up for us. My therapist has expressed his surprise at the depths of my distress over the move and I'm as shocked as he is. So I don't want him to change anything at all - too much change already for me to handle. That said, it shakes me when I realize how big my needs are and how much I still fear sudden abandonment. Kind of like, "if he changed this, then what else will he change?"
I hope those thoughts help in some way. I wish you lots of soothing in our life right now.
****It always helps to not feel so alone. Thanks for taking the time to write.
Posted by Daisym on September 26, 2009, at 19:52:26
In reply to Re: Need help understanding these tears » Daisym, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2009, at 10:20:53
Maybe part of it *is* that your therapist is so wonderful and so caring. I've often thought that if he were my therapist I'd fall madly and most uncomfortably in love with him. Standing at the bottom of the stairs, or writing that note to you with the object he left you while he was gone. Those are wonderful caring things to do and I admire him so much for doing them. But they may also have stirred up feelings in me of longing and hoping that would have been so painful.
****Here's the thing - he isn't seductive at all when he is doing these things. He is funny and sweet - and yes, pretty loveable. But he never stepsides the issue of belonging to someone else or even that therapy will end one day. What this does do is highlight what is missing from my own life and always has been.
I often wonder if I'm not lucky to have such an imperfect therapist. He carelessly tramples my feelings so many times. If he finds out about it, he might say that I've misunderstood him, or that he's sorry I felt that way (I hate that) but he often acknowledges that what he said did hurt me, and that it is a truth that does hurt. When I cry that I wish this or that, he says "I know" with such humor and warmth that it eases the sting of rejection or boundaries as he'd put it. But rejection and boundaries are still what they are.
****I know that "I know." It helps but not a ton sometimes. The fact that he understands that the boundaries suck does not always make them better. And my therapist has trampled my feelings on occasion - usually when HE uses the word fantasy. He does always feel bad and wants to talk it to death. I want to just hide from my feelings.
I'd see the tears as grief. For what you have a glimpse of but no chance of holding. For the golden dream that will never be. My therapist makes it easy enough to know that outside the therapy room as well as in it, he is no golden dream. If I long for more, I'm brought to the amused realization that I *have* the best of him, for what it's worth. I've heard him talk to his family, and believe me, being his therapee/daughter is way better than the real thing. (Although I'm still madly jealous of his niece.)
****I agree they are grief. I think they are also fear - the fear that I'm not done yet and he is going to leave and the fear that I'm just not loveable.
One thing I will say is that it wasn't until I totally accepted and grieved what I would never have from him, that I was able to fully embrace what I did have from him. It may not be what I dreamed of, but it's a pretty darn good reality.
Your therapist, what he does give to you, is a pretty darn good reality. But I see why you are as frustrated with what you can't have as I was that I can't have more of those audio clips, instead of rejoicing with what I did find. I could have had twice as much joy.
****I don't know how to grieve. Or maybe I can't tolerate the length of time it takes. I don't know. Glass half empty vs. full?
But Daisy, you do know that he might not be such a great lover? He might not know how to make sex safe or joyous for you. He might come home at the end of the day and snap at his wife and kids. Who he is in the room with you is not all of who he is. But it might be the best part of him. The golden part of him.
****You know Dinah, I try to think of those things but I suspect he is who he is inside and outside the therapy room. He might not be a great lover but that really isn't the point. The point is that I've already been intimate with him -- he knows more about me than anyone else -- and he hasn't run screaming from the room yet. I totally know how lucky I am to have his undivided attention when we are together. I really don't want him because I'd never hurt him and the ramifications, even in fantasy, are too great. But I want his clone -- or someone similar...:)
Posted by Dinah on September 26, 2009, at 22:44:11
In reply to Re: Need help understanding these tears » Dinah, posted by Daisym on September 26, 2009, at 19:52:26
I didn't mean purposefully seductive, just for the record.
He's just *so* wonderful...
Your run of the mill mortal is bound to look like chopped liver in comparison.
I know *my* therapist is mildly jealous of him. :)
You are such a love-able person. Finding someone who won't run away when they get to know you shouldn't be that hard. Prospective romantic interests are often more demanding than therapists, of course. But not because you aren't worthy and loveable. It's just a different kind of relationship. One that's inordinately difficult for me, so I understand the challenges.
I can't imagine your therapist leaving you, though. Not by his will.
Posted by Daisym on September 27, 2009, at 0:30:31
In reply to Re: Need help understanding these tears, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2009, at 10:28:09
I've sort of stopped wishing he would hug me. There are momentary thoughts of course - like a session that it is really hard that would feel more complete with a hug. He acknowledges feeling that as well.
But at this point it has grown to symbolize the end. Because I *know* I will hug him when I'm ready to leave therapy. And leaving has so many meanings, including when I'm feeling suicidal. So it is OK that he doesn't.
I find I wish he'd hold my hand. Just this really simple thing - but that comes from a very young place. It is protective and not threatening. I've never asked him though.
*sigh* I still think this is one of those things that all therapists should disclose up front - do they, or do they not hug. That way the client just knows. It was a pretty painful episode for me to confirm that he did not. Not because of the rejection, although it did feel that way, but more because I was so mortified, like I should have know, I over-stepped, etc. I did tell him that.
Posted by Daisym on September 27, 2009, at 0:44:26
In reply to Re: Need help understanding these tears » Daisym, posted by twilight on September 25, 2009, at 10:58:57
Well Daisy, I can empathize with your situation. I think the therapy experience is kind of like house hunting. We don't really know what we want sometimes, but we'll know it when we see it (or in the case of therapy, feel it or get it.)
****I think this is true although this is my first "real" therapy experience. I met a few others when I was looking for a therapist but they scared me. At that time I could not have told you what I wanted except someone to fix me. And I struggle with knowing that therapy isn't supposed to feel good all, or even most, of the time. But when it feels bad, it is sooo bad.
Our emotions and feelings are very complex but one thing is, we are born fully human into this world and sometimes we don't need to understand so much as just 'be' with those feelings. It's OK to be human and to not be able to figure it all out. And to expect perfection from our T's. Boy, that's a common one even though our rational minds know they are fully human like ourselves.
****Intellectually I do know that I should try and sit with all these feelings. My therapist reminded me Friday that I'm expending a great deal of energy telling myself I shouldn't feel this way instead of utilizing the energy to tolerate the feelings. Blah - sometimes it is hard to not want to stuff it all in the box. The needing him to be perfect is in direct relation to the narcissistic part of me that thinks I have such negative power over people as to turn them into monsters. So if he misses, I worry what i've done to mess him up.
And I think maybe your T wants to 'fix' the problem (wondering how to figure out what you want from him whereas you not really knowing what exactly that is, yourself). Which probably is frustrating for him, because he feels helpless.
****Sometimes he says it is hard to watch me suffer. And other times he seems to forget how long it takes me to really integrate something. He'll say in surprise, "but we talked about that." Yes, well. And he seems well aware that while I cope with life so much better when we are connected, the connection itself causes an internal struggle. He says he is OK experiencing frustration because he has faith we will get back on track. I'm just not OK with him being frustrated.
It might just be, that the two of you talk about these feeling for awhile, not with the intent of fixing the problem, but just to get it out there in whatever way it comes out.
****You are right and we are talking about all this. I am much more honest than I used to be about feeling upset and not getting over it right away.
Daisy it seems to me you are doing a lot of good work with this T ---- keep pushing yourself forward.
****Thanks. I often feel I haven't made any progress at all over the years. He says I have. So we just keep working at it. I still wish all the time for a short cut though...
Posted by Daisym on September 27, 2009, at 0:56:08
In reply to Re: Need help understanding these tears » Daisym, posted by antigua3 on September 25, 2009, at 14:40:19
Oh, Daisy, it hurt so much to read this, to know that you are hurting so much, and to recognize and feel those feelings, too.
****At least I'm not alone - although I'm sorry you know this pain.
You described the complex set of feelings so well as horrible as they are when you are in the midst of them.
****Complex is the exact right word. Trying to name them helps though.
Maybe you're in one of those push-pull times when you are testing him with all your might, but at the same time you want to be loved and cared for? Just like we did as children, but we didn't have the firm boundaries that our Ts have? But we need to know those boundaries are safe, and that your "specialness' with your T is a different kind of specialness, a very safe and trusting one, a place where you can let all these feelings out and you won't be judged. Because your T is not judging you; he never judges you. You are so lucky because you do know in your heart that he does care very much, but he will never cross those boundaries and as much as you want a special piece of him, you're developing new ways to define that "special piece." It's not the destructive one you experienced as a child or young girl; it's one that is very firm for our own safety. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to trust him as much.
****I think you are right. I *am* testing - I want to know that if I'm B*itchy he'll still hang in there. He says he will. And the younger parts of me want to be sure that he won't get turned into a monster no matter what. Even if I am special in some way - I don't have to be 'that' kind of special. And one of the really tough things is to recognize that I want him to protect me from myself. *I* choose to have sex which then disrupts me. Now if he tried to tell me what to do, I'd have none of that. But still, the younger parts are screaming, "why did you let me do that?!" It is all so very complicated - this push/pull as we come to trust ourselves more. And the intimacy we share stirs up all the adult feelings - how could it not?
Pls take care. I wish I could help more.
You always help with what you write. Thank you for that.
Keep posting if it helps. Do something nice this weekend.
I'm going to try and just rest tomorrow. Today I had to clean out the garage at my ex-husband's place - he is still living in our house and hasn't sold it yet. So this was another push towards doing that. It was pretty awful but it could have been a lot worse. I'm just glad we are done with it.Hugs, Daisy
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