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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Little Soul on December 30, 2008, at 21:16:38
Hi everyone - I'm a new member and am seeking your advice on an issue. I'm currently experiencing some strong transference issues and want to know if anyone here has experienced the same thing? Just to give you some context, I've been in therapy for about 2 years with a wonderful therapist whose been extremely helpful. My therapist's husband died two months before I started therapy with her, recently she has started seeing someone and I find myself unbelievably jealous. I think about this relationship all the time and find it more intense than my initial transference with her. My thoughts are that I don't want her to have a man in her life, although I don't want to be her lover as I'm married to a wonderful man, as well as I don't want her to be happy without me (slightly embarrassed to admit this). My history is one of childhood trauma and abuse as well as of infant abandonment by my mother. Although my mother came back, there was no relationship between us that could resemble a healthy mother/daughter relationship. In addition, my dad started abusing me when I was about 8 years old.
I've just begun to mention my jealously to my therapist, but feel embarassed to dwell on her relationship too much. She is very willing to discuss with me, but this feels to me like it's going beyond the normal transference stuff and so I'm reluctant to go too much further in therapy sessions. Not only do I think about her relationship with him in general - dinner with friends, going on trips together but specifically - I've started to think about them together sexually and that really "freaks me out".
I know transference is normal and critical to the theraputic relationship, but I feel like I've gone over the deep end with this one. Can someone give me some perspective?
Thanks,
Little Soul
Posted by Dinah on December 30, 2008, at 22:14:37
In reply to In the midst of it all, posted by Little Soul on December 30, 2008, at 21:16:38
I've found that if I try to fight thoughts or feelings they just get stronger. Feelings just are.
What does your therapist say? Does she think it's helpful to talk about your feelings? I admit that I found it helpful in my therapy to talk through it, and eventually I did come out on the other side.
Does your therapist talk about her dating relationship? Some therapists self disclose a lot more than others, and I think there are valid reasons on both sides of the argument. Even though my therapist is pretty self disclosing, I never even knew he was dating until he told me he was getting married. I suppose he usually self discloses when I notice he's upset, not when he's happy. Do you think her level of self disclosure is helpful to you?
Again, welcome to Babble.
Posted by Little Soul on December 30, 2008, at 22:55:08
In reply to Re: In the midst of it all » Little Soul, posted by Dinah on December 30, 2008, at 22:14:37
> I've found that if I try to fight thoughts or feelings they just get stronger. Feelings just are.
>
> What does your therapist say? Does she think it's helpful to talk about your feelings? I admit that I found it helpful in my therapy to talk through it, and eventually I did come out on the other side.
>
> Does your therapist talk about her dating relationship? Some therapists self disclose a lot more than others, and I think there are valid reasons on both sides of the argument. Even though my therapist is pretty self disclosing, I never even knew he was dating until he told me he was getting married. I suppose he usually self discloses when I notice he's upset, not when he's happy. Do you think her level of self disclosure is helpful to you?
>
> Again, welcome to Babble.Thanks for your reply Diana. I notice that my thoughts do get stronger when I try to fight them. It's just so hard to "sit" with them. I usually feel the need to call her on the phone (I have permission to call when I'm in crisis). She always encourages me to talk about my feelings, however I'm conflicted talking about this though...
My therapist is probably middle-of-the-road open when compared to others. I could tell that something had changed and just asked her outright if she was seeing someone. She said yes, and hasn't talked about it since then. So with no further info I find myself wanting to know more - don't understand that! The wierd thing is that I want to know, but when I know it just hurts. Yeesh..this is hard stuff, never been in therapy before this and didn't know about or expect these kind of feelings. I feel trapped by my feelings.
Thanks again for your post!
Little Soul
Posted by Dinah on December 30, 2008, at 23:13:40
In reply to Re: In the midst of it all, posted by Little Soul on December 30, 2008, at 22:55:08
I was just talking to my therapist today about how much easier it was now that I feel free to talk to him about him. When I found out he was getting married, I wasn't sure what that meant to me. Would he be going on a three month honeymoon cruise around the world? Now we're so comfortable with each other that I can flat out ask him anything, or tell him that I'm jealous of his nieces, or really anything.
I always figure it is better to talk about it, but I admit it is hard. It's taken me forever to get to this point.
Do you have any ideas on why you're having these feelings? Sometimes it's really obvious (like yes, I do wish he was my uncle). But sometimes it's not so obvious. I was totally obsessed with a dream I was having about him for a while. The dream was so out of keeping with my feelings about him. But once when I was describing the dream the words that came out of my mouth made it clear that the dream wasn't what it appeared to be about at all. It was a metaphor for something else entirely. What it actually was was no secret to me, but making the connection made the obsession less.
Do you think there could be some fears connected with her relationship? Are you afraid that her new relationship will take energy away from you? You noticed something was different. Was it different in a way that distressed you?
When my therapist got married, I dreamed that his bride to be told me he was a eunuch. We weren't on such terms then that it was easy to tell him about my dream. I think I held my hair over my face and looked away. I was pretty sure I knew why I was having the dream. I didn't think of him as a "man" and his getting married sort of thrust that into my notice. I was, in my dream, taking care of that problem.
Do you worry that your therapist is getting something from the new person in her life that she'll never get from you? Does it bring home the fact that you will never have a relationship outside therapy with her? Does it bother you that she's a real person who has a physical relationship and physical needs. (This really bothered me a lot, and I still manage to ignore it most of the time.)
I suppose what I'm saying is that even though even my therapist accuses me of overanalyzing things, I always find it easier to deal with my emotions if I take an interested and inquiring stance towards them. Why am I feeling this way? What does this mean to me?
Also you might have seen the book "In Session: The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists" mentioned at the top of this board. Lots of us have found this book enormously helpful to us in normalizing our feelings towards our therapists.
Posted by Little Soul on December 30, 2008, at 23:50:52
In reply to Re: In the midst of it all » Little Soul, posted by Dinah on December 30, 2008, at 23:13:40
> Do you have any ideas on why you're having these feelings? Sometimes it's really obvious (like yes, I do wish he was my uncle). But sometimes it's not so obvious.
So far, what I can tell is that I wish she were my mom. I know that I feel jealous, but sometimes it seems like it's something else that I can't put my finger on.
> Do you think there could be some fears connected with her relationship? Are you afraid that her new relationship will take energy away from you? You noticed something was different. Was it different in a way that distressed you?Yes, you are on to something here. I do fear that she will not have energy for me - or won't call me back because she is busy with her boyfriend. Isn't that dumb?
> Do you worry that your therapist is getting something from the new person in her life that she'll never get from you? Does it bring home the fact that you will never have a relationship outside therapy with her? Does it bother you that she's a real person who has a physical relationship and physical needs. (This really bothered me a lot, and I still manage to ignore it most of the time.)Yes, I have this fantasy that, since I was in therapy very shortly after her husband died and she did share some of what happened and a little bit about what was going on for her, I was there for her. Kinda like we were both in pain at the same time. She was never inappropriate with her stuff and only shared on a limited basis. But I developed this thinking that she wouldn't "heal" faster than me. And now she's moved on and I feel left behind. She's happy why can't I be? or I'm still hurting, why can't she be? And yes, I wanted to be part of her family for the longest time. I think I was getting it through my head (heart) that that will never be, but I think this situation has brought it up again for me. I just want her to be my mom and take care of me like a mom would (feeling shy about admitting this publically). And the thought of her being a real person with needs that I can't fill is also very distressing.
I do appreciate your questions as they are helping me to tease out what's going on in my head as I've been in my heart for quite a while now suffering with this. Real glad I found this site.
I've heard about the book you suggest but haven't read it. Sounds like Amazon.com needs a visit from my credit card.
I have to admit, these feelings do contribute to my sense of loss early in my life and my powerlessness over that whole thing. I guess I just wish she were my mom.
Apologies for the long post - you just got me thinking. Thanks Dinah.
LS
Posted by myrtledog on December 31, 2008, at 2:35:27
In reply to Re: In the midst of it all, posted by Little Soul on December 30, 2008, at 23:50:52
I had exactly these feelings when my T got married. I was enraged, I was distraught. It was so hard to get that confirmation that I was not 'number one' in her life. I also share your childhood history - and I believe that that has much to do with the intensity of the transference in this area.
Posted by fayeroe on December 31, 2008, at 10:23:47
In reply to In the midst of it all, posted by Little Soul on December 30, 2008, at 21:16:38
> Hi everyone - I'm a new member and am seeking your advice on an issue. I'm currently experiencing some strong transference issues and want to know if anyone here has experienced the same thing? Just to give you some context, I've been in therapy for about 2 years with a wonderful therapist whose been extremely helpful. My therapist's husband died two months before I started therapy with her, recently she has started seeing someone and I find myself unbelievably jealous. I think about this relationship all the time and find it more intense than my initial transference with her. My thoughts are that I don't want her to have a man in her life, although I don't want to be her lover as I'm married to a wonderful man, as well as I don't want her to be happy without me (slightly embarrassed to admit this). My history is one of childhood trauma and abuse as well as of infant abandonment by my mother. Although my mother came back, there was no relationship between us that could resemble a healthy mother/daughter relationship. In addition, my dad started abusing me when I was about 8 years old.
>
> I've just begun to mention my jealously to my therapist, but feel embarassed to dwell on her relationship too much. She is very willing to discuss with me, but this feels to me like it's going beyond the normal transference stuff and so I'm reluctant to go too much further in therapy sessions. Not only do I think about her relationship with him in general - dinner with friends, going on trips together but specifically - I've started to think about them together sexually and that really "freaks me out".
>
> I know transference is normal and critical to the theraputic relationship, but I feel like I've gone over the deep end with this one. Can someone give me some perspective?
>
> Thanks,
> Little SoulLittle Soul, I am older than dirt and have quite a bit of experience with Ts.I am very surprised that your T told you about an intimate part of her personal life.
I have a degree in psychology and worked for years with male and female patients. My supervising Pdoc told me from the very first that sharing personal information can lead to more intense transference. Your thinking about her sex life seems to be an indication of a shift in your relationship with her.
I really do have strong feelings about this and if were in this situation, I would discuss the fact that I'm uncomfortable with what I have learned about her love life. Perhaps that would bring about a good discussion about boundaries and filters.
This is only what I would do and by no means am I saying that this is THE way to handle the situation.
Good luck, Pat
Posted by seldomseen on December 31, 2008, at 10:44:11
In reply to Re: In the midst of it all, posted by Little Soul on December 30, 2008, at 23:50:52
I'm really sorry you are hurting this way, little soul.
I don't think you've gone off the deep end at all about your therapist's relationship. In fact, I think you may have hit on a very essential part of your therapy.
At the heart of what your saying I hear loud and clear that you are worried that your therapist will go away or change somehow now that she is in this relationship with this man. As long as she was unhappy, that was at least a common bond that you shared. Now, what do you have to keep her there? It's even worse because there is another person in her life.
All of these things hurt. The fear of abandonment and being left behind hurts. I do understand that, but it also shows that you have attached to and begun to trust your therapist. Despite all the hurt, these are really really good things. It takes a lot of time, though, for these feelings to be internalized and become secure.
It'll be okay though. What Dinah said is absolutely true, these feelings just kind of have to sit a while. It's hard because they demand sooooo much attention, but resting with them and talking about them can help.
As an aside, as adults, things tend to get sexualized a lot, and it all ends up as a jumbled mess. Try not to beat yourself up over wondering about their sexual relationship. I think that, along with the feelings, is normal - well, normal for therapy.
Take good care.
Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on December 31, 2008, at 10:58:53
In reply to Re: In the midst of it all, posted by Little Soul on December 30, 2008, at 23:50:52
I'm glad if I was able to help. I see it as accepting the feelings, but taking just a small step back to observe them so they aren't so overwhelming.
This is a terrific board, and I hope you find it as helpful as I have.
Posted by Little Soul on December 31, 2008, at 13:18:02
In reply to Re: In the midst of it all » Little Soul, posted by Dinah on December 31, 2008, at 10:58:53
Thanks everyone. Today for some unknown reason (maybe yet another holiday...yeesh) I'm having a hard time. But let me just clarify one thing because in re-reading my initial note it sounds like my therapist is willing to discuss her dating situation in more detail with me and that's not the case. She is willing to discuss my feelings about the situation, but really exchanges very limited-to-no information about her relationship. And even though I want to know what's going on, I think ultimately I'd be uncomfortable with knowing more (maybe, maybe not - I'm pretty torn). Okay, so that helps me sort out T boundaries. Because I agree with you, fayeroe, those boundaries need to be set by the therapist because I have no idea how to set them (i.e. my background).
The abandonment thing is very real for me, thanks seldomseen. In fact, I got a tug in my stomach reading your note. I don't want her to leave me. Another person in the picture is threatening. It was hard enough first knowing that she had other clients, and friends, and her own children and grandchildren. I just feel so sad about the whole thing. Wish I could be objective and look at this with curiousity like you say Dinah. It's hard I have to admit. But, seldomseen, you are really on target with your comments - it feels good to be heard by you, and all of you, for that matter. Already, I feel like I'm being watched out for...loving this board.
LS
P.S. When will this go away???...I want this feeling to go away!
Posted by backseatdriver on December 31, 2008, at 19:46:10
In reply to Re: In the midst of it all » Dinah, posted by Little Soul on December 31, 2008, at 13:18:02
Hi LS --
Your post chimed with a lot of my experience, especially in early life. Abandonment is so hard to process and when it happens in early childhood I think it is much worse, because small children just don't have any tools, any words for their experience. It is overstimulating, overwhelming.
You mentioned feeling kind of competitive with your T, in terms of speed of healing. This made me wonder if there are multiple aspects to your transference. Like she is your mom, but also perhaps a sibling?
My T is sometimes my mother, sometimes my father -- often in very, very quick succession. It was a shock, to me at least, to realize transferences can be faceted in this way. But apparently it's not unusual. In the countertransference, I am sometimes his mother (I hate that) and sometimes his sister (I don't like that much either).
One thing I learned recently is that with early mother abandonment, sometimes what needs to be constructed in therapy is the whole idea of *relationship*. After that first loss and breach of trust, we never really learn or are in a position to begin to learn how to be happy, and fully ourselves, and fully present in *connection*. (It is easier to be alone. But we miss out, too.)
Yours,
Backseatdriver
Posted by Little Soul on December 31, 2008, at 22:17:12
In reply to Re: In the midst of it all, posted by backseatdriver on December 31, 2008, at 19:46:10
Thanks so much backseatdriver! I never thought about it that way, I was only seeing my mom in the transference. You've given me something to think about. Happy New Year to you and thanks again - very thought provoking.
Little Soul
Posted by workinprogress on January 2, 2009, at 16:22:48
In reply to In the midst of it all, posted by Little Soul on December 30, 2008, at 21:16:38
Little Soul-
I think the issue that you bring up, transference, but particularly insecurity and confusion about it, the need to feel "normal" about it... is one of the top topics here on this board. I haven't been here too long and I've seen it come up over and over again. It's what helped me find the board...
I'm sure this has been mentioned (I read the whole thread a bit ago, but can't remember), but I would encourage you to keep talking to your T about the jealousy. I think it's pretty normal and I think she'd understand and help you feel ok about it. I don't think it's any sort of "beyond normal transference", if it is, lots of us here have gone beyond normal... and then what is normal?
I felt really freaky when I realized I was jealous of my T's kids, particularly the 11 year old, whom I could imagine still crawling in her lap. I wanted to crawl into her lap. I told my T and she got it, validated me, made it normal, and then we talked about the desire to be an "only child" and how every kid wants that, but it isn't reality. Doesn't mean it's not an ok feeling to have, just that you have to deal with the fact that there are others- though she doesn't have any shortage of love. Anyway, talking to her more, being as honest as you can, might help you feel more settled.
Also, it makes sense that there's a sense of loss for her not being in your same place. I'm sure you felt camaraderie and an extra sense of empathy and also having a special connection. Now that's gone, it makes sense to me that you'd grieve that.
I don't think you've gone off the deep end at all. I think you are letting yourself feel what's really there. A deep yearning for a connection with a loving person. A desire to have that all to yourself, a fear that it might go away and a desperate need not to lose it. I've been there... settled down and thought phew, glad I feel more comfortable, it's so much easier.
As I began to trust more and feel safer in the relationship I felt less obsessive and fixated on her. But, I'm now realizing, it isn't all linear. I've hit a hard spot with the holidays and need her a little more and she wasn't there for me in the way she usually is. So, I think I took a backstep in the trust arena and am just digging a little deeper- means I need her more. So... I'm back sitting in your boat with you. Waiting for an email back. Yearning. It's a hard space, but my T would say it's probably the most important work of therapy, the scariest (and many people don't get there), but critical to moving forward.
So... you're doing great to let yourself go there.
Good luck and you've come to a great place. Take advantage of it!
{{{{{{{{{Little Soul}}}}}}}}}}
-WIP
> Hi everyone - I'm a new member and am seeking your advice on an issue. I'm currently experiencing some strong transference issues and want to know if anyone here has experienced the same thing? Just to give you some context, I've been in therapy for about 2 years with a wonderful therapist whose been extremely helpful. My therapist's husband died two months before I started therapy with her, recently she has started seeing someone and I find myself unbelievably jealous. I think about this relationship all the time and find it more intense than my initial transference with her. My thoughts are that I don't want her to have a man in her life, although I don't want to be her lover as I'm married to a wonderful man, as well as I don't want her to be happy without me (slightly embarrassed to admit this). My history is one of childhood trauma and abuse as well as of infant abandonment by my mother. Although my mother came back, there was no relationship between us that could resemble a healthy mother/daughter relationship. In addition, my dad started abusing me when I was about 8 years old.
>
> I've just begun to mention my jealously to my therapist, but feel embarassed to dwell on her relationship too much. She is very willing to discuss with me, but this feels to me like it's going beyond the normal transference stuff and so I'm reluctant to go too much further in therapy sessions. Not only do I think about her relationship with him in general - dinner with friends, going on trips together but specifically - I've started to think about them together sexually and that really "freaks me out".
>
> I know transference is normal and critical to the theraputic relationship, but I feel like I've gone over the deep end with this one. Can someone give me some perspective?
>
> Thanks,
> Little Soul
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