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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by onceupon on September 25, 2008, at 10:37:38
Deal with thoughts and images of suicide, that is? Each day it feels like the world is becoming more unreal and each day I'm slipping away a little more.
On the outside, I still seem to be functioning, pretty much. Get to work (don't always do the best job, though), care for the kiddo, force myself to engage at least with him. But all the rest? The cooking, cleaning, school deadlines, socializing? Couldn't care less. I told my therapist the other day that sometimes it seems like I keep going on because it is the thing to do. It is what I do. One foot in front of the other. Step, step, step. She tried to convince me that the act of going on belies some small amount of hope. At the time it felt more like cowardice, though. More like feeling frozen and unable to exit this loop of doing, doing, doing.
And that's when the thoughts and images of suicide come, sometimes in waves almost. It's an old coping mechanism, thinking of suicide, but it's awfully hard to push aside sometimes. I try, I put it in a corner, I distract myself, but it always comes back, unbidden. How do you deal with this when it feels like it's going to drown you?
To be clear, I have no plan to act on these thoughts. They just get so big sometimes. You know, I got away from them last spring, when I wasn't working as much. I started an antidepressant and fish oil, and started running again. But it's all fading away now, and the despair has returned, heavy in my chest. Could be seasonal. But I can't help but thinking that it *always* comes back. It makes me so tired.
Posted by DAisym on September 25, 2008, at 12:53:54
In reply to how do you do it? (triggers), posted by onceupon on September 25, 2008, at 10:37:38
I think I know this kind of tired.
I spent a great deal of time wondering why I couldn't shake the ideation. So I researched suicide - I was almost expecting the library to call someone I had so many books checked out on the subject. What I learned is that suicide is often the last escape hatch for people - from the weight of depression, from trauma and from the feelings of being a burden to the world. The loneliness and despair generate the feelings but the anxiety and fear cause the actions. This is why many people think about it for decades but don't do it and why some people cope and cope and cope and then take the dive off the bridge. We all have different triggers, and rarely are the warning signs clear. Of course, in retrospect, people find a trail and begin to assume that there were "cries for help" - but in reality, most of us who feel this way keep it well hidden. Especially if you've had trauma to hide before - you can look pretty normal and yet still feel awful.
For me, I've written a list of why I shouldn't die. When I feel so bad that I can't remember any of the reasons, I take it out and read it. It helps. And I force myself to bring it up in therapy even though it feels like crying wolf all the time. My therapist says that maybe the reason you haven't acted is because we talk about it. He feels like bringing these dark feelings into the light diminishes their power. I think you are right, when you isolate yourself the ideas get so big and you stop thinking clearly about the actual impact of those you leave behind - like your child.
It is hard for me to write that, because there are times when I desperately want to believe that the world will be better off without me - essentially giving me permission to end the suffering I often feel. But once upon a time, a Babble poster told me her story of losing her mom to suicide. I've never forgotten how much pain she was still feeling, even as an adult. I don't want to do that to my kids. That doesn't mean I don't struggle against it sometimes, and on a different day I might write a completely different response.
I get it, I really do. But I think your therapist is right - getting through takes so much courage, it isn't about being afraid to die. It is about being willing and hoping that tomorrow, or next week, or next month, something will shift and you will feel better.
I'm glad you wrote about it here.
Posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2008, at 13:51:00
In reply to Re: how do you do it? (triggers), posted by DAisym on September 25, 2008, at 12:53:54
Wow thanks that was so profound. I too understand. Seriously thanks. Phillipa
Posted by onceupon on September 25, 2008, at 22:54:15
In reply to Re: how do you do it? (triggers), posted by DAisym on September 25, 2008, at 12:53:54
It was interesting to read what you wrote about loneliness and despair leading to the feelings and anxiety and fear causing the actions. Sometimes the causality seems a little confused for me. It's like I'm not sure which came first - suicidal thoughts, or the loneliness. They certainly always seem to come together.
I have attempted suicide, many years ago, and I can look back now and realize that it was at least in part because I was so dang agitated at the time. The littlest things would seem to set my nervous system on edge.
And you're right about being able to hide it so well. It's certainly not the kind of thing you bring up in casual conversation, and even in therapy, it's not easy to talk about. I've been surprised at how few follow up questions my therapist has had after I've raised the issue of suicide. We've also talked about how invested I am in maintaining some semblance of normalcy and to appear competent (at what, I'm not exactly sure). So I know I sometimes soften the intensity of things in therapy b/c it's so hard for me to let my guard down. Not to mention that feeling vulnerable seems to open up more pathways towards thinking about suicide. I don't quite understand how it's all connected, which frustrates me too. So much of it feels just plain *visceral* like my body is going to do its own thing, despite whatever my head might be trying to tell it. Okay, that got really convoluted. Sorry if it doesn't make much sense. It sounds like your therapist responds well when you bring up suicide. In some ways, I think he's right, that these dark things are so dark *because* they're not talked about. On the other hand, I tend to either downplay any concerns about suicide in therapy or walk away from a conversation feeling ashamed and overwhelmed.
I need to write one of those lists, I think. In my head, my son is always front and center. It worries me sometimes to put such a great responsibility on a not-yet 2-year-old without his knowledge though. There was a time not too long ago when I somehow managed to tell my therapist that I thought my family (husband and son) would be better off without me, for various and sundry reasons. And for the first time, I was feeling confident that my husband could raise our son well. My therapist, of course, forced me to look at the actual consequences of my suicide on my family. I understood, intellectually, that it would be devastating, but it almost made me feel more guilty, in a twisted kind of way. Like it served as proof that I was unfit as a mother, b/c I couldn't properly anticipate the consequences of my death on my child. I was pretty well-versed in the backwards logic of depression. The shame of all of it was excruciating too. My therapist has small children, and I felt as if she found me detestable, that I could even think of leaving my child in that way.
Thanks for your response, Daisy. It's nice not to feel so alone in all of this. Thanks too for offering support when it appears you might be struggling quite a bit yourself at the moment - I noticed your post below - hope everything is OK.
Posted by obsidian on September 25, 2008, at 23:18:06
In reply to how do you do it? (triggers), posted by onceupon on September 25, 2008, at 10:37:38
> Deal with thoughts and images of suicide, that is? Each day it feels like the world is becoming more unreal and each day I'm slipping away a little more.
mmm.... I think about it, and then I imagine telling my T about it, and he's telling me that the thoughts don't make sense, but with a lot of warmth
> On the outside, I still seem to be functioning, pretty much. Get to work (don't always do the best job, though), care for the kiddo, force myself to engage at least with him. But all the rest? The cooking, cleaning, school deadlines, socializing? Couldn't care less. I told my therapist the other day that sometimes it seems like I keep going on because it is the thing to do. It is what I do. One foot in front of the other. Step, step, step. She tried to convince me that the act of going on belies some small amount of hope. At the time it felt more like cowardice, though. More like feeling frozen and unable to exit this loop of doing, doing, doing.
"Sometimes courage doesn't roar... sometimes it's that small voice at night saying "I'll try again tomorrow".
I keep this quote on a magnet next to my desk
so when I really start to get terrified, and really unable to deal with a lot
I can look at it
I forget it's there a lot though
and this one:
"Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence."
...this one is a little closer to where I can see it> And that's when the thoughts and images of suicide come, sometimes in waves almost. It's an old coping mechanism, thinking of suicide, but it's awfully hard to push aside sometimes. I try, I put it in a corner, I distract myself, but it always comes back, unbidden. How do you deal with this when it feels like it's going to drown you?
try to keep from sinking... I have these dreams where there is a tidal wave coming, and it is just above my head, and the waves are like 20 feet high, and I am always thinking "how the hell am I going to get of here?"
it's scary, you have to find a way to say it verbally or to express it, in art in writing, somehow, and you've got to share it with your T
> To be clear, I have no plan to act on these thoughts. They just get so big sometimes. You know, I got away from them last spring, when I wasn't working as much. I started an antidepressant and fish oil, and started running again. But it's all fading away now, and the despair has returned, heavy in my chest. Could be seasonal. But I can't help but thinking that it *always* comes back. It makes me so tired.wow, I wish I could go running again, truth be told I was addicted to it once upon a time- this is a crazy thought as I sit here on this couch
;-), but it used to help me A LOT or just keep me from sinking anyway
but it is so hard to get motivated, especially when I am just fried from the day
Posted by obsidian on September 25, 2008, at 23:31:01
In reply to Re: how do you do it? (triggers) » onceupon, posted by obsidian on September 25, 2008, at 23:18:06
I also want to say, because I am a complete pain in the *ss
how do you feel about the medication? did you stop taking it? did you think it was working?
do you need something else?
you sound so depressed, and I don't mean to judge you, but it sounds like you are in some despair
really, I remember (my body actually remembers better) what it felt like
you've got to see someone
Posted by Dinah on September 26, 2008, at 7:53:15
In reply to how do you do it? (triggers), posted by onceupon on September 25, 2008, at 10:37:38
I was thinking the same thing as Obsidian. Some of that sounds physiological. Not that it's either or, but once it becomes physical for whatever reason, it tends to snowball.
I have medication I take as needed when I find myself overstimulated or having ruminating thoughts.
It's amazing how feeling different physically can change how you feel emotionally. For example, I beat up on myself a lot about my willpower. But there are times I recognize that I'm exerting a lot more willpower, for a lot fewer results, when I'm feeling bad.
Posted by Nadezda on September 26, 2008, at 9:58:46
In reply to how do you do it? (triggers), posted by onceupon on September 25, 2008, at 10:37:38
I don't know that I have any thoughts on why or how people go on. When I had suicidal impulses and thoughts, I really never did find a reason other than that, deep down, I just wasn't ready to give up on some of the hopes and dreams that I hadn't yet realized. Maybe seeing your son grow up, or fulfilling some project of your own, or learning more about how to live, so that you can grow as a person-- I think each of us has different aspirations in life that, ultimately, are living in us-- and that we aren't ready to abandon, despite the pain or loss or loneliness of our current lives.
When I think back to my years of wanting not to be alive, I'm glad that I didn't follow through with my thoughts-- and I think you too will look back in the same way. I think having a list of reasons-- and going down to the core of why you want to be alive-- yourself-- could help, in the worst times. I may even make a list now-- for the days when I feel discouraged.
We sometimes don't remember the things we could be grateful for, when the pain gets to a certain point. They just disappear into it. but they reemerge later-- and become meaningful again.
I'm so sorry that you're having such a hard time.
Nadezda
Posted by Sigismund on September 26, 2008, at 16:15:06
In reply to how do you do it? (triggers), posted by onceupon on September 25, 2008, at 10:37:38
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation." - Henry David Thoreau
You will exit this loop of doing sooner than you think....at least, when you look back on it it and wonder where the time went. Social behaviour can demand the exclusion of expressions of despair, but I think it is a precious thing to share.
But how do you deal with it? You seemed to be doing comparatively well when you were able to work less and look after yourself more.
Posted by onceupon on September 26, 2008, at 21:22:49
In reply to Re: how do you do it? (triggers), posted by Sigismund on September 26, 2008, at 16:15:06
Thanks so much everyone for your kind and supportive responses. I plan to respond individually, but am headed out of town for the weekend for a long-ago planned, well-timed girls' weekend out.
Hopefully I can stay present enough to enjoy myself.
Posted by JoniS on September 27, 2008, at 22:12:49
In reply to how do you do it? (triggers), posted by onceupon on September 25, 2008, at 10:37:38
Onceupon,
I'm sorry you struggle with it. I do too, and I just get mad sometimes that it doesn't seem for me that it goes away, it just gets covered up for a little while and then comes back and rears it's ugly head. My T said that it's because I'm hurting so much I cant see reality - cant remember his words exactly, but I think he gently said I only feel suicidal when I have a real distorted view of things. Anyway, good luck with this. I hope more good thoughts come your way and that you have a great time during your girls away time.
Joni
Posted by onceupon on September 29, 2008, at 12:54:23
In reply to Re: how do you do it? (triggers) » onceupon, posted by obsidian on September 25, 2008, at 23:18:06
> mmm.... I think about it, and then I imagine telling my T about it, and he's telling me that the thoughts don't make sense, but with a lot of warmthGlad to hear he says it with warmth! I don't think I'd take too kindly to hearing that my thoughts don't make sense :)
> "Sometimes courage doesn't roar... sometimes it's that small voice at night saying "I'll try again tomorrow".
> I keep this quote on a magnet next to my desk
> so when I really start to get terrified, and really unable to deal with a lot
> I can look at it
> I forget it's there a lot though
> and this one:
> "Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence."
> ...this one is a little closer to where I can see itThose are fantastic quotes, Sid. Thanks for sharing. Sometimes I wish the noise and the haste didn't feel so centralized in my head. But I was able to get away this past weekend with a group of friends, and we all noticed how quiet it was - no traffic, sirens, kids, families. So nice.
> try to keep from sinking... I have these dreams where there is a tidal wave coming, and it is just above my head, and the waves are like 20 feet high, and I am always thinking "how the hell am I going to get of here?"
> it's scary, you have to find a way to say it verbally or to express it, in art in writing, somehow, and you've got to share it with your T
That sounds terrifying. It makes me wonder about dreams and depression. I keep having dreams that people I don't know (and sometimes people I know) are trying to kill me. Thanks for the reminder about other ways to express what's going on. Sometimes I get so caught up in feeling like I need to find *just* the right words, otherwise it won't make any sense. In the end I'm just verbally paralyzed.> wow, I wish I could go running again, truth be told I was addicted to it once upon a time- this is a crazy thought as I sit here on this couch
> ;-), but it used to help me A LOT or just keep me from sinking anyway
> but it is so hard to get motivated, especially when I am just fried from the dayTo be fair, I haven't run in the past month :) And I know I need to get going again, but the motivation, meh. And the days are getting shorter. Grrr...
Thanks for your support, Sid. It means a lot.
Posted by onceupon on September 29, 2008, at 12:56:40
In reply to Re: how do you do it? (triggers)) onceupon, posted by obsidian on September 25, 2008, at 23:31:01
Not a pain in the *ss at all. Although it took me a long time to get to the place where I was OK taking the meds, I'm still OK with them now, and still taking them. It felt like it (Zoloft) worked for awhile, but maybe the effects have tapered. I see my pdoc next week and will definitely talk with her.
I don't feel judged at all. To the contrary, I feel quite supported. Thanks for that :)
Posted by onceupon on September 29, 2008, at 13:00:02
In reply to Re: how do you do it? (triggers) » onceupon, posted by Dinah on September 26, 2008, at 7:53:15
> I was thinking the same thing as Obsidian. Some of that sounds physiological. Not that it's either or, but once it becomes physical for whatever reason, it tends to snowball.
Yeah, I am starting to realize that maybe there's something physiological going on. I've noticed that I'm losing more hair than usual recently, so maybe there's something hormonal going on?
> I have medication I take as needed when I find myself overstimulated or having ruminating thoughts.
>
> It's amazing how feeling different physically can change how you feel emotionally. For example, I beat up on myself a lot about my willpower. But there are times I recognize that I'm exerting a lot more willpower, for a lot fewer results, when I'm feeling bad.Hmm, that's interesting. I used to beat up on myself a lot about willpower too, but somewhere along the way that fell away. I still often feel like I'm not doing "enough" (of what "enough" might be). It's been hard to get past the pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality that my family imparted on me.
Posted by onceupon on September 29, 2008, at 13:09:45
In reply to Re: how do you do it? (triggers) » onceupon, posted by JoniS on September 27, 2008, at 22:12:49
> Onceupon,
> I'm sorry you struggle with it. I do too, and I just get mad sometimes that it doesn't seem for me that it goes away, it just gets covered up for a little while and then comes back and rears it's ugly head. My T said that it's because I'm hurting so much I cant see reality - cant remember his words exactly, but I think he gently said I only feel suicidal when I have a real distorted view of things. Anyway, good luck with this. I hope more good thoughts come your way and that you have a great time during your girls away time.
> JoniThanks, Joni. It was definitely nice to get away this weekend. Always a double edged sword though, because it feels like there's a lot waiting for me now that I'm back.
It's funny how, when I'm not in it, I can see and really understand that my view of reality gets so distorted when I'm depressed. But when I'm swimming in it, even if I can intellectually understand that I'm not thinking clearly, that doesn't override the feelings. CBT never worked very well for me :)
I'm sorry to hear that you struggle with it too. It's nice to know I'm not alone, though. And hopefully I can offer support to others as well.
This is the end of the thread.
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