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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on August 25, 2008, at 21:03:16
Anyone ever feel like they want to hurt themselves somehow to get their T to hear them or take them seriously? Yes, I've tried words. And yes, I know that idea is not at all healthy and I'm not threatening/planning to actually do it. It's just a feeling.
Does that mean it's time to quit therapy, at least with this person? I know therapy is hard and brings up hard emotions, but that doesnt seem like it should be one of them.
I'm considering telling her those exact words (above).. but I have a tendency to get into relationships that clearly arent working and stay in them WAY beyond the appropriate time because I feel like I just must run myself ragged trying to fix it/make them get it/etc. I dont want to run away if it's the wrong decision, but I also dont want to recreate that pattern. If it's time to go, it's time to go. Unfortunately, my meter to gauge that has been broken for years.
Posted by Nadezda on August 25, 2008, at 22:28:08
In reply to Need to be taken seriously, posted by wishingstar on August 25, 2008, at 21:03:16
There's really no foregone answer to your questions, WS. No one other than you can possibly make those judgments. You could feel any of those feelings about a T who is helping you, ultimately-- because they're coming from conflicts and fears, or patterns of handling things emotionally that are prevalent in your life. It isn't so much that you feel any of them, it's how they do or don't get worked out, over time with your T that matters.
If your T can respond well enough to give you better experiences despite, or through responding to, these times,-- then you can reshape responses and this all can be turned to constructive ends. If the feelings come up and the two of you become stuck in them, until they become yet another iteration of the trauma-- then they will have been part of a destructive cycle yet again.
The question of where the point is when you know that what's happening is the latter, rather than an opening to the former (ie that it's a destructive cycle, rather than part of a more constructive turn)-- is a very hard question for anyone to answer. I've been through terribly hard times with my T, when I had all the worst and most hopeless feelings about my relationship with him-- and felt that I needed desperately to end it, to protect myself. But over time, these things did get worked out-- even though in the middle of them, I was sure that they never could be.
It really is hard-- unbelievably hard-- and an act of faith-- to keep on going until you suddenly come to realize that you've grown and changed-- or you have the realization that there isn't anything to have faith in. But you really, really are the only one who can stick with it, to find those truths for yourself.
I feel bad for you though because I've been there. I know how confusing and scary it is to be in the midst of all this. I hope you find a way to move forward, to persevere as best you can, despite simply not knowing what can come of it.
Nadezda
Posted by caraher on August 26, 2008, at 7:23:47
In reply to Need to be taken seriously, posted by wishingstar on August 25, 2008, at 21:03:16
> Anyone ever feel like they want to hurt themselves somehow to get their T to hear them or take them seriously?
Not me.
> Does that mean it's time to quit therapy, at least with this person? I know therapy is hard and brings up hard emotions, but that doesnt seem like it should be one of them.
You know what your former T said about this - that it sounds like you're trying like mad to be heard and it isn't happening. If that's going on in a therapy relationship, especially after well over a year, it does sound like time to move on.
Posted by Annierose on August 26, 2008, at 10:20:07
In reply to Re: Need to be taken seriously, posted by Nadezda on August 25, 2008, at 22:28:08
Wishingstar -
When you talk about noticing patterns, I think you need to consider your role in making the pattern, not the other way around.
I feel your struggle. And it is so difficult. But look up your posts from a year ago (I believe) and they are identical with the therapist triangle from today.
When I find myself in situations that feel familiar to me, whatever they are, my t will help me figure out what dysfunctional pattern I'm re-creating or what I am getting out of the pattern.
Something is there for you.
You like the comfort of your former t because she has a longer history with you.
Posted by susan47 on August 26, 2008, at 12:53:46
In reply to Re: Need to be taken seriously, posted by Annierose on August 26, 2008, at 10:20:07
Good answers. What's your consensus wishingstar?
Posted by wishingstar on August 26, 2008, at 19:13:55
In reply to Re: Need to be taken seriously, posted by Annierose on August 26, 2008, at 10:20:07
I'm not blaming my T for what's going on any more than I blame myself. In fact, the thing that makes all this so upsetting is the very fact that I blame myself and feel worthless because I cant fix it. The reason suicidal thoughts have begun to develop for me again, and my depression has gotten worse, is mostly because of the fact that I absolutely, 100% blame myself for these problems. My self worth is completely gone and no matter how much others in my life (professionals and not) tell me it's clearly not my fault, I cant believe it. But recognition of patterns/problems/etc doesnt get me very far. I verbalize what I'm feeling and what I think is going on, and get told I'm wrong. For instance, just yesterday I tried to explain to T, who is frustrated at my recent weight loss (related to anorexia), that it's not as easy as going out and eating a pizza and gaining the weight back. She informed me that I'm wrong and it IS that easy. Good to know. And no, that statement isnt taken out of context... there wasnt any additional explanation on her part. I explained my feelings further. I told her I feel like she's not getting it. She didnt budge. Now what? I guess I'm supposed to admit that she's right... but what gets attached to that is some very intense self-blame towards myself for not being able to fix it magically by just eating a pizza. Regarding my old T from a few years ago that terminated badly, every professional I've talked to about that situation has agreed that her behavior was in many ways inappropriate and unethical. There is NOTHING a client can do that justifies unethical behavior on the part of a therapist. I was also recently informed by T that perhaps part of my problem is that I'm too honest in therapy and that leads to people (professionals) over analyzing what I say. Well dang, I cant win. I say that sarcastically but really, I do sit around and blame myself and get upset over that, trying to figure out what I should and shouldnt say since obviously I've been too honest in the past. Shouldnt I be able to talk freely? There's a lot more to my situation with my T than I've posted. And I've tried a LOT. I've been VERY honest with her about all this, and open to hearing her responses, whether theyre about me, her, or the process. I may or may not agree, but I'm willing to hear what she has to say. What else can I do? Right now, I go to therapy feeling okay and leave and feel suicidal, depressed, etc for a few days... not because hard material has been brought up, but because I feel so frustrated and worthless and invisible. Yes, I've said that to her. Yes, more than once.
I've had other Ts in the past, other than my favorite one who I talk about here, who I havent had this issue with. I quit those Ts either because I moved or due to other circumstances that forced me to quit (long story, not meaningful to this discussion).
I appreciate your thoughts. I'm sorry if I seem defensive.. I admit, I do feel that way. I truly am trying as hard as I can and I do appreciate what you said.
Posted by wishingstar on August 26, 2008, at 19:20:43
In reply to Re: Need to be taken seriously, posted by Nadezda on August 25, 2008, at 22:28:08
Thanks for the response nadezda... your perspective is helpful. I think the problem lies in what you said about whether or not T is good enough to "respond well enough to give you better experiences despite, or through responding to, these times" etc... I think that's the crux of the problem. I feel as though I'm feeding her the issues, and willing to work on them, but neither of us know where to go with it so we just pretend it doesnt exist. When I bring up my problems with therapy itself, she doesnt respond in a terribly helpful manner. I truly dont mind feeling uncomfortable in therapy... I dont mind leaving therapy and crying my eyes out.. if it feels productive. But when I leave and cry every week because I feel so invisible, worthless, unimportant, because of feeling ignored and devalued yet again... that's destructive. I dont see a light at the end of this tunnel. I dont feel as though this is part of the process (at this time, anyway) or something that will come out nicely and lead to growth in the end. I feel like it's teaching (reminding) me how to shut down, disengage (even though I'm not doing a very good job), etc. I spent my entire childhood feeling ignored, being told I didnt really feel the way I felt, etc... I dont need that from a therapist who I pay.
Please check out the response I wrote to annierose too. I want to be clear that I'm not saying this is 100% my Ts fault, or that I have no role in creating this problem. I'm sure I do. I wish I knew how to fix it.
Posted by wishingstar on August 26, 2008, at 19:21:28
In reply to Re: Need to be taken seriously, posted by caraher on August 26, 2008, at 7:23:47
I'm going to send you an email. Thanks for responding.
Posted by Racer on August 27, 2008, at 17:56:35
In reply to Re: Need to be taken seriously » Annierose, posted by wishingstar on August 26, 2008, at 19:13:55
> I verbalize what I'm feeling and what I think is going on, and get told I'm wrong. For instance, just yesterday I tried to explain to T, who is frustrated at my recent weight loss (related to anorexia), that it's not as easy as going out and eating a pizza and gaining the weight back. She informed me that I'm wrong and it IS that easy. Good to know.
Yeah, that is good to know.
And you know what? She's right -- gaining the weight is exactly as simple as eating.
EATING is the complex part...
I'm always inclined to look for the places where it sounds as though there's a miscommunication, that this therapist might be doing a better job overall than what's coming across here, etc -- and I have read this thread very carefully for any sign of that, just because of my own bias. (Which comes from my "if it feels as though I should quit, it's likely a sign that I need to stay" experiences, you know? It's nothing suspicious, you know?)
What I'm reading in your posts, though, is very different. What I'm reading in just this one incident is that you've got a therapist who is not a good fit for you right now. Now, that may just be my interpretation, my reading, and I could be wrong, but her failure to validate your concern doesn't seem like a good fit. Mind you, I have no idea what the context is, etc, but I know how I'd feel if I heard that.
If you have a history of anorexia, or an active eating disorder, it might be in your best interest to find someone with experience/training in EDs. It really does make a difference.
And part of my criteria in all this is simple: are your concerns validated before you're redirected? Is there any sign that the words which came out of your mouth were heard?
Best luck, and I hope that helped.
Posted by Nadezda on August 27, 2008, at 21:04:27
In reply to Wweeeelllll.... » wishingstar, posted by Racer on August 27, 2008, at 17:56:35
I was noticing in the archives from about a year ago that you had a lot of the same feelings about your current T (if your current T is the one you were writing about then.)
For example, here's a post from last May:
As much as I loved [G...] in the beginning, I'm starting to wonder if its not time for me to move on. Therapy has begun to feel like a complete waste of my time (and money). Basically the only thing I'm getting out of it right now is some attention.... we never get to a place where I'm exploring new ideas/connections or talking deeply about feelings or anything like that. I'm glad she gets it and sees how its all playing out, but I'm not going to pay to tell someone what I already know....
I saw her this Tues. I told her that I'd taken a mini-OD on Fri..... I just want to scream... Dont you hear me? Dont you hear how bad I'm feeling? ...
I've talked to her before about how I feel like shes not hearing me, but it doesnt seem to have any effect....."
Maybe it's just that there are times when these feelings arise, but many other times when you're working well, then it's certainly reasonable to stay.
But if it's more pervasive than that, and you're saying many of the same things now perhaps the dissatisfaction is signal of something deeply missing in the therapy. Truly, even if G is a very capable therapist, and a, likeable, engaging person, she simply might not T for you. Of course, it's hard to break away; despite everything, separation and loss are hard to face. But still, it becomes important, at some point, to begin to act on these feelings.
Maybe you could consult (as I did at one time) with another T about the therapy with G Or maybe you could look for another T, so you have somewhere to go. It's so hard to break away without a safety net-- that that would be totally understandable.
Also Racer's idea that someone with training in the area of eating disorders could be better a better choice resonates with me. Particularly since G doesn't respond so helpfully (IMO) to some of your comments-- as in the example you gave-- she may simply not be equipped to handle what you're going through.Feelings that therapy is useless or a waste of time do come up in quite good therapeutic relationships. But if they're ongoing and inescapable, at some point, it's too much; you need to take action-- either by talking more seriously with G, or beginning to think about how to end with her, even if it's extremely hard.
Nadezda
Posted by Racer on August 28, 2008, at 15:54:04
In reply to Wweeeelllll.... » wishingstar, posted by Racer on August 27, 2008, at 17:56:35
I've been told by a number of therapists -- both those with years of experience, and those just out of their internships -- that people with eating disorders should be referred to therapists with training in eating disorders. They have said that that's considered to be standard of care.
Eating disorders are the most deadly of all psychiatric disorders, and they're very complex, so competent treatment is vital. That really does mean seeing a specialist if at all possible.
Wishingstar, if you need help finding someone near you who specializes in eating disorders, try NEDA -- http://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/ I've used all the various referral sites and that's the one that I found most helpful for me. They give useful information about the therapists listed on their site.
And since I'm offering up opinions now, here's another:
If your anorexia is acting up, it could be that you're falling back on it to try to communicate. In other words, it might be a sign that you really aren't feeling heard. The rallying cry of many in recovery from eating disorders is "Use your voice!" If you use your voice, and STILL aren't heard, you're unlikely to continue using the healthier method of communication. You'll fall back on communicating with your body.
I don't know if you've ever wandered through the archives, but back in 2004 I had a really terrible experience with treatment. In fact, it triggered a relapse of AN, which I'm still struggling with. The therapist pushed at me to "admit" to things which simply were not true, pushed at me to "control" my emotions, etc. She also did not hear me when I stated, in as many words, that I was relapsing. (I've got my file, with her treatment notes -- so I *know* that she didn't hear what I said.) That experience did a very great deal of damage, which I'm still trying to recover from now.
And I tell you this, because I think what you're describing sounds more than a little similar.
Best luck to you.
Posted by wishingstar on September 4, 2008, at 21:17:34
In reply to And one more thought..., posted by Racer on August 28, 2008, at 15:54:04
I'm sorry for not responding earlier to your wonderful posts. Thank you so much for the support... it was exactly what I need right now. In the past week my world has pretty much come crashing down... I found out that the man I have been close to for many many years and dating for the last 1.5yrs, doesnt love me like he always said he did. Confirmed by him. He's coping with some really terrible things himself right now.. his childhood was quite traumatic and he just seems to have realized it all at once recently and he's having a very hard time coping. Regardless, finding out that he feels the same towards me as his mother, coworkers, etc (again, his statement) has pretty much torn me apart. I saw my evil pdoc today who is the LAST person I'd ever trust and cried in her office. My own T has never even seen me cry... I dont do it. But I'm just a wreck. I didnt go to work today. This is different from depression.. honestly, i'd prefer depression. I know what depression is. This is just sadness, hurt, anger... all normal emotions, but so hard. I called T for an appt today but she didnt have any. Boyfriend is going to therapy of his own next week.. first appt.. and we're going to couples counseling the next week.. first time there too. But really, if he doesnt love me, what can couples counseling do? No one can make someone love someone. I know that it's his problem, not me... his inability to experience emotion in his life basically... but it doesnt make a difference. All i need it to be held, hugged by him, but I cant. We're still "together" but probably not for much longer.
Anyway, that;s why I havent posted in response. I do appreciate your responses very much... my life has just centered around these issues and nothing else for the last several days. Thanks again.
Posted by antigua3 on September 5, 2008, at 8:41:35
In reply to Re: And one more thought..., posted by wishingstar on September 4, 2008, at 21:17:34
I'm really sorry that you have been going through all this. It must be very difficult. You seem to have a good sense that it isn't you, and you aren't beating yourself up over it. Hold onto that.
Know that we are here for you,
antigua
Posted by wishingstar on September 6, 2008, at 22:36:33
In reply to Re: And one more thought... » wishingstar, posted by antigua3 on September 5, 2008, at 8:41:35
This is the end of the thread.
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