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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 47. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 16:00:57
I generally think that there's nothing that enters my head that doesn't eventually make it into the therapy room.
But I was rather surprised to discover that the other day was the first time I'd really told him that his picking and grooming behaviors distracted me from therapy (and sometimes send shivers up my spine in an unpleasant sort of way). So I realized that I do in fact have the usual social politeness things that I keep from him. Things that don't really have anything to do with my therapy, and that I really see no benefit and only harm to letting spill from my mouth.
I'd just as soon he kept that sort of thought about me to himself as well. The other day I made a joke about my looks and weight and he laughed and enjoyed it for a few seconds before he recovered his therapeutic stance and suggested that it wasn't really a healthy way to refer to myself. :) I kind of liked that. That he virtually admitted the truth of what I was saying, and didn't try to cover it up with false cheeriness and meaningless protests. But I'm not sure I'd like as much for him to spill those things out himself.
I of course have been honest with him that if he ever makes it necessary for me to lie to avoid termination, that I'd lie with no compunction at all. I'd consider it the same as coercion. And I thank him for never making that necessary. I don't think he likes that, but he accepts that it isn't unreasonable. And he also knows how I feel about his using our relationship as leverage in an abusive way. Of course he uses our relationship as leverage for change in a more subtle way.
I think at first I didn't quite lie to him, but didn't necessarily tell the truth unless he asked directly. And my embarrassing truths aren't really anything anyone would think of asking directly. :) But now I'm more scrupulous.
What do you all feel about lies in therapy? Are little polite lies ok? Or even necessary? Is telling the truth a function of the period of time we see a therapist and the trust we feel?
And does there ever come a time when even every single thing is known and is greeted with familiarity?
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 16:06:26
In reply to Is there anything you don't say to your therapist?, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 16:00:57
And admittedly this has come to mind because last session I definitely did not say what I thought about something, because it really had nothing to do with me or my therapy. And because not saying something was the polite thing to do.
And because I talked to him about something very important to me, and he answered with apparent interest and therapeutic exploration. Yet when I asked his impressions, he answered that I had already told him all this, and I should know already how he felt about it and that it wasn't anything he disapproved of. Sigh. It wasn't really a moment to tell me I wasn't telling him anything new. It was a reminder of the drawbacks of very long term therapy and total honesty.
Posted by rskontos on April 26, 2008, at 16:31:03
In reply to Re: Is there anything you don't say to your therap, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 16:06:26
Dinah, I think I am ill-equiped to answer you for all the reasons in my previous posts so I will just say that I admire you for your openness to your therapist. I envy it. I wish I had it and think I am defunct in some basic way that I have had not one deeply connected relationship to most anyone and cannot for the life of me seem to do so with my therapist. I have been putting some of the blame on him but I think regretfully the issue is my own. So I have in reading your posts think you do a great job of being open.
So yes there is a huge amount I withhold but I think you would have already guessed that so I am responded to say that I think you are the better for your disclosure. And if by some remote chance you are finding somethings you do withhold remember that we must all keep some small things to ourselves and some things we keep are just to be polite. I think the fly being open is one of them. I just can't tell someone that. Maybe you should. That is probably a bad example but for now the only one I could come up with on short notice.
rsk
Posted by vwoolf on April 26, 2008, at 17:00:17
In reply to Is there anything you don't say to your therapist?, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 16:00:57
Yes, there are a few things I can't talk about, even after many years of therapy in which I have talked about everything.
One is about something I did to my son years ago. I don't know why I can't talk about it. I have told her far worse things. Far worse! This one is just sort of iffy - well, maybe more than iffy but not as bad as others, in my opinion, and probably in the eyes of most people. And every time she asks me why my son would be angry with me I think of this episode and find it impossible to speak. Hmmm.
The other is about my sexual feelings towards her. Yes, I have told her about them, and she sort of yawned and said that's normal, and looked vaguely irritated. So I haven't spoken of them again.
And also about some CSI stuff that I remember but don't want to talk about. Details really, she knows the main facts. But I feel so much shame about the details.
And my fears of termination are the other great terror. We do talk about them, but it's always as if there is a layer, a depth, that I do not reach.
In fact that's the real issue here. That on these difficult topics I stay on quite a superficial level, so she knows a bit but not all.
For the rest she knows everything. Sort of. I often feign ignorance of psychological matters and refuse to use any jargon, even though she knows that I have read extensively in the field and have degrees in psychology. I often feel like a child who knows more than she should about adult matters, and so feigns innocence. Hmmm. Says a lot about me as a child I guess.
Posted by Annierose on April 26, 2008, at 17:15:47
In reply to Re: Is there anything you don't say to your therapist? » Dinah, posted by vwoolf on April 26, 2008, at 17:00:17
Sometimes it is the silliest of things that I do not share ... so yes! to your question.
I have a list of questions that I have not answered ... and they are seemingly inconsequential.
Once she asked me what was running through my mind, and I said a song. "What song?" I could not tell her ... seemed too personal to share the music I like. Why? Don't know.
Once she asked me why I was smiling. I was thinking to myself at that moment, "Fashion police would have her arrested today." Didn't share that thought either.
In response to a current conversation, she asked, "Do you want to share any sexual fantasies you might have?" Nope.
T question: if you could call me as much as you wanted to ... how often would that be? Pass ... not going to answer that one either.
I do not lie to her (at least intentionally) instead I will tell her, "I don't want to answer that question." or I change the subject and/or divert the conversation to something I can talk about.
On the flip side, I have share thoughts with her that I never thought would leave my lips to the spoken world.
Posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 18:06:48
In reply to Is there anything you don't say to your therapist?, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 16:00:57
The other day, I was talking about something from my childhood that was very embarrassing and shameful. As I was struggling with that, I noticed that he had a comical-looking four-inch strand of wavy hair standing up straight on the top of his head ( he's got very thin sandy gray hair, and very little of it). I began to tell myself that it was a thought, so I should say it. Do you think I did? NO WAY!
Just so you all realize there's never a dull moment, last week I embarked one day on an effort to tell him my recent sexual fantasies about him. I really didn't want to one bit, and when it was over, I just sat there feeling exhausted (sort of proud of myself, too, though), The end of the hour came. As he got up, I couldn't help noticing that what I had just told him had had a very clear physically arousing effect upon him. So, I leave, thankful to have left that topic behind (no wonder I'm talking about awkward exits!).
But when I return two days later, he opens the session by calmly saying, as if he were discussing a scheduling change, "when my penis is erect, it could be wonderful, or it could be terrifying.." I'll have to leave the rest to your imagination. other than to say that it was 50 minutes of something I have never done before- talk about my own feelings, and my own body, as well as HIS. It was completely safe from any kind of boundary crossing, but it seemed tremendously daring emotionally. It all turned out fine, though- instead of feeling glad that I was over and done with talking about them, I ended feeling glad that I was able to have and stay with those feelings for him, and glad and appreciative that he had had some. too.
On the other hand, thank goodness for a few restful, dull moments, like now, paying bills...
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 18:37:26
In reply to it's the little things..., posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 18:06:48
Wow, Twinleaf. I do have to say I think you handled that very well. And I'm glad you were ok with it.
If my therapist ever gets physically aroused around me, I hope he takes steps to make sure I don't know it. I am sure he never would. Apart from my looks, he sees me as a therapee/daughter.
He's aware I do frequently get physically aroused, and he's also aware it's nothing personal. I always get physically aroused when I'm anxious, and it's an annoying physical wire crossing for me. He thinks it's interesting physiologically, and has some familiarity with the phenomenon having done a lot of debriefing sort of stuff.
Yet strangely, if the reverse were true, I'm not sure I could ever feel safe around him again. Even if it were nothing personal. My personal issues, I'm sure.
But he wouldn't.
I think, given that he must have known you knew, he handled it well. And so did you. You were very very brave to talk about that.
(I've told him about the only two sexual dreams I ever had about him. In one I discovered from his wife that he was a eunuch. In the other one he was impotent and I held his limp penis in my mouth. That one I told with my face literally buried in my lap and my hair pulled over what was visible of my face I was so embarassed. Neither was anything that he would find arousing.)
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 18:41:57
In reply to Re: Is there anything you don't say to your therapist?, posted by Annierose on April 26, 2008, at 17:15:47
The fashion police comment would be the sort of thing I'd never share. Personal things about him I notice and where saying it would be less than flattering. There's no real point to hurting his feelings. And I'm fond of all the good and bad things about him, so it doesn't get in the way of therapy.
Music was another thing I never willingly brought up! My taste in music is a bit embarrassing to me. But it came up fairly recently for some reason, and he was really nice about it.
I resisted telling him my fantasies for a long time, since when I told him my daydreams they went away. And he won't help me recover them. :( I guess some things are personal and shouldn't be shared. I've shared them, but maybe I shouldn't have.
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 18:51:40
In reply to Re: Is there anything you don't say to your therapist? » Dinah, posted by vwoolf on April 26, 2008, at 17:00:17
I actively hid my psychology reading for a long time!!! When I started talking about Babble I had to come clean. I'm not sure why that was so hard to admit. Maybe because it implied a lack of trust?
I think that telling him the really shameful stuff was pretty helpful to me. Having him hear things and not react with disgust helped me a lot with the shame. It was really hard, but it was worth it, I think. Now I've told him I generally refuse to repeat it. And tell him that if he doesn't remember *that*, then I'm certainly not going to repeat it. But I'm glad I told him the first time.
Of course, her reaction to your disclosures about sexual fantasies wasn't ideal. :( I guess it's a hard thing to talk about, even for therapists.
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 18:55:32
In reply to Re: Is there anything you don't say to your therap » Dinah, posted by rskontos on April 26, 2008, at 16:31:03
Don't beat yourself up about it. I didn't trust my therapist for five years. You've barely seen him at all. I'm not a person who finds it easy to trust. I was still honest with him. But I wasn't necessarily completely honest with him.
On the other hand, there was something about him from the beginning that was compelling to me. That made me want to keep trying to trust him. There was something safe and calm that made him feel like a sanctuary long before I ever felt it was safe to trust in that sanctuary. I do think there needs to be something there to keep therapy going. Some sort of elemental quality that draws a client to a therapist long before the structure of trust is built.
Posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 19:35:09
In reply to Re: it's the little things... Trigger? » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 18:37:26
Actually, Dinah, it was a very terrifying hour for me, being in such potentially dangerous territory with him. While I was the one who brought things up (as usual), he was acting as a guide for me, saying, in effect, "it happened, to you and to me. It's not off-limits; we can talk about it." As we did, slowly, I got the message from him that it would be OK for me to be more like him about it- natural, accepting, calmer.
I wonder how many years of psychoanalysis it takes to be able to do that with ones' patients?
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 19:41:15
In reply to Re: it's the little things... Trigger? » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 19:35:09
I'm sure it was terrifying. But you did do it. That's the essence of bravery.
I think it would definitely take a lot of self acceptance to be able to speak about that with calm acceptance and in a way that was neither seductive nor threatening.
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 19:48:54
In reply to Re: it's the little things... Trigger? » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 19:35:09
You know, it's funny. I think my therapist was way more comfortable discussing sexuality in the early days of therapy. He asked the usual questions, and exhibited a willingness to discuss it, and a comfort with discussing it. And the CBT materials would include things like using orgasm when feeling anxious.
I can't say I was ever comfortable discussing it.
But I think it's less comfortable now. We know each other better in other ways, so talking about sex is weirder than it would be with a stranger. I have to really steel myself to bring it up, and while he does not in any way discourage my doing so, I can see that he makes a sort of shift into forced relaxation. He certainly never brings it up, even at times when bringing it up would not be unnatural.
Posted by raisinb on April 26, 2008, at 22:20:45
In reply to Is there anything you don't say to your therapist?, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 16:00:57
Dinah, I dislike lying to my therapist. Usually, I do it without thinking, about something stupid (like, a month ago I made up a sexual experience I didn't have), and I immediately feel like I've gone against my entire goal for being there, which is to learn emotional honesty.
But there are many things I can't talk about. One is the details of my sexual feelings about her. We have a pattern. She brings it up, I say something vague, then refuse to comment further.
I don't talk much about dating/romantic relationships. I suppose I think I can pretty much handle that on my own.
I don't talk about what kind of music I like (mainly because I suspect we have wildly divergent tastes) or the kinds of food I eat, little details like that.
And I'd never say she was wearing unflattering clothes, even though sometimes I am just shaking my head, internally.
Posted by raisinb on April 26, 2008, at 22:21:45
In reply to it's the little things..., posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 18:06:48
Twinleaf, I admire your and your therapist's composure during those moments. I can't imagine having a relationship *that* secure.
Posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 22:41:25
In reply to holy crap! » twinleaf, posted by raisinb on April 26, 2008, at 22:21:45
Well, raisin, HE is calm,secure and relaxed, and is trying to do his best to show me the way to becoming more so. I am sitting opposite, squeaky-voiced, sweating, while I twist and pull at my hair. This will probably sound even stranger than what I have already told you, but he has been setting the stage for the hour I just described for over six months, by, for instance, calmly mentioning his penis, as if it were a natural, safe part of all that has been occurring between us. I guess he got me desensitized by doing that, so that i was able to have fantasies about him, and also hang in there for what followed.
I have a background of csa, so this "safe experiencing" is actually very, very. very important for me. I have felt so much better since that hour- like I took a big step forward. Thinking of how he had the knowledge and personal courage to conduct therapy in this way almost takes my breath away.
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 23:09:05
In reply to Re: holy crap! » raisinb, posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 22:41:25
Wow again.
If my therapist mentioned his penis I think I'd be out of the door before his next word left his mouth. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't have one. He's a Ken doll.
Maybe there's a difference in analysis. My therapist isn't one, and we talk about sex only in terms of my functioning. I don't think I could take anything else *at all*. His penis has no place in our discourse.
I'm always happy when people find therapy that works for them and you've been clear that he's been very helpful to you and that this approach is helpful to you. I just couldn't handle it myself.
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 23:23:47
In reply to Re: holy crap! » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 23:09:05
I know I mentioned his body parts in those two dreams. But the first one was assuring myself that he wasn't a sexual being, even though he was getting married. And the second one had nothing at all to do with sex. It was my subconscious's way of bringing to my attention that he wasn't really being very effective (was impotent) at that point in time, and that I cared about him and was taking care of him. Which was an important thing to discuss, and fortunately he pulled himself shortly after that. But we both knew it had nothing really to do with sex.
Posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 23:26:35
In reply to Re: holy crap! » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 23:09:05
If I could do it, I'm sure you could too! The thing that was, and still is, SO astounding to me is that I would find myself in the office of such a highly-thought of psychoanalyst, and, before I know it, he's talking about his PENIS! Really, just what did he think he was doing??
But, underneath my panic and fear, I knew he was doing it to find a way to help me with my sexual anxieties. Never for a moment did I think he was doing it to gratify himself at my expense. I think that was because, as all these things were occurring, he was really holding me, and my well-being, paramount in his mind at every moment. I really knew that, so I could venture taking some risks...with him.
Well, just a breathtaking experience...
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 23:43:59
In reply to Re: holy crap! » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 23:26:35
No, I really couldn't.
You have a far greater ability to trust than I do, I think. I say I trust my therapist. And I do. But if he did something that unexpected, my trust would fly out the window like a startled sparrow. I apparently have very conditional trust.
But we're all different and what's helpful for me would not necessarily be helpful for you. So we're lucky to have our respective therapists.
Posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 23:44:47
In reply to Re: holy crap!, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 23:23:47
This is not in any way meant as a criticism, but rather as an observation which may well not be on point. From what you've said in response to my "penis sessions", I keep thinking that perhaps both you and your therapist may be colluding to make sure that nothing similiar happens between you. I think you are right- that having known one another for so long and as well as you have- sexual thoughts or desires become more problematical.
One of the things about what is going on between me and my analyst is that there is NOT overwhelming sexual desire on the part of either one of us. It's just one of the things that happens from time to time- one among the many thoughts and desires I have about him- and that he has about me. I don't learn very much about his thoughts or desires unless he thinks there is something that will be helpful to me. But to go back to what you said- would it be helpful if desire were included in the relationship when and if it occurs? It seems to me that it would- once one has a steady look at it, it takes its place with all the other things we experience.
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2008, at 0:02:15
In reply to Re: holy crap! » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 23:44:47
No, it really wouldn't be helpful for us.
My mother did not have healthy boundaries, sexually. She disclosed things that I really had no business knowing. And although it wasn't abuse, it did leave me with significant issues.
For you, discussing sexuality might be good for your sexual anxiety. But for me, it would not be good.
I have no desire for him. I know desire, and if I felt it for him I wouldn't be seeing him as a therapist. He has no desire for me. I'm ugly and fat, and thank god for that.
Posted by Sigismund on April 27, 2008, at 1:40:04
In reply to holy crap! » twinleaf, posted by raisinb on April 26, 2008, at 22:21:45
I admire the composure too!!!!
Posted by seldomseen on April 27, 2008, at 8:55:42
In reply to Is there anything you don't say to your therapist?, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2008, at 16:00:57
There isn't much that I don't tell my therapist.
He tries really hard to be totally neutral in his dress, his mannerisms, and his general demeanor during our sessions.
Every now and then his face will scrunch up or he will throw his head back and I ask him to tell me what he his thinking. He pulls his socks up when something piques his interest, although I called him on that a long time ago. He doesn't do it as much now.
He also stammers sometimes which just drives me craaaazy, but I've never mentioned that to him. I feel like just yelling "just spit it out". He is especially bad about this on the phone.
As far as the big things, I am completely honest. I think he really can't help me very much unless I let him know what going on in my head. So I try to do that to the best of my ability. Sometimes I just don't have the words though.
Seldom.
Posted by seldomseen on April 27, 2008, at 9:22:31
In reply to it's the little things..., posted by twinleaf on April 26, 2008, at 18:06:48
I certainly can see the therapeutic benefit in discussing your analyst's erection.
I truly admire both of your abilities to face this head on -pardon the pun :).
There have been times, looking back on it, when I think my therapist has had an erection during our sessions as well. A quick attempt to open my file and put it on his lap, the crossing of the legs, turning slightly away from me - I think have all been tell-tale signs.
My therapist and I have dealt with erotic countertranference directly. He admitted that he would very much enjoy having sex with me. How I reacted to that statement is still driving our therapy to this day.
However, I suppressed my feelings about that for about a year, but we finally got around to it again.
I had to be at a particular place in therapy before I could tolerate that discussion without just losing it.
I think your analyst is exactly right in that his erection could be terrifying or it could be wonderful.
I've learned that desire doesn't have to spoil or ruin anything. It can exist in the room. Examining that desire, and the feelings around it can truly open doors and help us understand ourselves and our issues better.
The key is being totally confident that no one is going to act on that desire within the therapy. It has to be a safe place for it to be explored.
Thank you for sharing this experience, it certainly has given me the opportunity to think about the relationship I have with my T, and the safety I feel with him now.
Seldom
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