![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 20:26:45
In reply to Re: One more thing ..., posted by Annierose on April 3, 2008, at 20:19:14
i think i did know that but i had forgotten. it's very interesting and relevant.
i don't want to run away and i also don't want to be masochistic. as much as i would like to be angry at this therapist, and would love to believe she is awful and unprofessional, i really think she wasn't so bad. she definitely made some mistakes but she mostly copped to them immediately and without much defensiveness.
i still worry that she wasn't helping me enough, that that sort of talk therapy can't really help me at this point. and since it causes suffering, the payoff seemed to indicate that termination would be best.
anyway, it's confusing.
> I don't know if you know this about me, but I quit therapy suddenly with my current therapist. It tore me apart for a long time. Years later I did contact her again and resumed treatment.
>
> I think what I learned in looking back at why I quit - that yes - at that time she was a new therapist, learning how to deal with someone as contrary as myself, and when she hit a raw nerve - I'd react and want to run away. In the end, I was running away from my fears, not her. But she admitted to me when I established contact again that "it takes years to become a therapist".
>
> For what that was worth ...
Posted by Annierose on April 3, 2008, at 20:40:13
In reply to Re: One more thing ..., posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 20:26:45
>>> and since it causes suffering, the payoff seemed to indicate that termination would be best.
I don't think your therapist is "causing" the suffering, rather examining the hurt in your life is painful and causing you to sort of re-visit that hurt and THAT is what's causing you to suffer. Not her. She is just the vehicle.
And ignoring the pain, well, speaking for myself, that doesn't work for long either. It's deep within us and rears its ugly head whenever or wherever it wants to.
Posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 20:41:33
In reply to Re: i feel sick with grief when i think about it, posted by Dinah on April 3, 2008, at 20:17:38
yeah, i basically agree. it feels cold though. and that last sentence i wondered if she meant it half-sarcastically. i do hope not.what sorts of worse letters have you received (if you care to share)? you mean from your current T?
i do feel awfully confused now. and i wasn't before this letter. and that is kinda sh*tty. i liked not feeling confused.
Posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 20:50:08
In reply to Re: One more thing ... » crushedout, posted by Annierose on April 3, 2008, at 20:40:13
I agree. I wasn't saying *she* caused the suffering--it's the therapy that does it. It's the therapeutic relationship, in that I get so attached to my therapist that I don't have room for anyone else in my life. And talking about it doesn't hurt so much as it simply felt like we were going in circles. I know what I want and I know what I can't have and I know why I want it. What else is there to figure out?It's like banging my head against a wall. Since I've left her, I've felt engaged with family and friends like I haven't in a long time. I am re-investing in the rest of my life.
I totally agree that if I am running away from my issues, that is not going to work. They are going to rear their heads again. But I am not running away. I faced the issue head-on. And then nothing happened.
Nothing. I mean it. I just have to accept that I cannot marry an older already-married woman. I don't even want to. So the fantasy will always be just that. A fantasy. But by continuing to see my therapist, there was a part of me that was hanging on to that hope, and how does that help me? It's almost biological. If I see her, I have these horrible feelings of longing. If I don't, I don't. Why see her? Why? Honestly.
I'm obviously trying to wrestle with this more than asking you to answer. But if you have answers, by all means, do share.
> >>> and since it causes suffering, the payoff seemed to indicate that termination would be best.
>
> I don't think your therapist is "causing" the suffering, rather examining the hurt in your life is painful and causing you to sort of re-visit that hurt and THAT is what's causing you to suffer. Not her. She is just the vehicle.
>
> And ignoring the pain, well, speaking for myself, that doesn't work for long either. It's deep within us and rears its ugly head whenever or wherever it wants to.
>
>
Posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 20:54:31
In reply to Re: One more thing ... » Annierose, posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 20:50:08
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2008, at 21:04:51
In reply to Re: i feel sick with grief when i think about it » Dinah, posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 20:41:33
The worst I got was even colder and more professional. It was from a pdoc, and was obviously a form letter. Except I think it said that I wasn't welcome to come back. Maybe not that obviously, but no door was held open.
I destroyed it pretty quickly. I had been embarrassed by my own behavior. I saw him while I was on Wellbutrin and I was not at all my normal self. My normal self can be needy and unreasonable, but on Wellbutrin I turned into the client from H*ll. My next pdoc put me on a mood stabilizer, then took me off Wellbutrin, and we got along fine.
Posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 21:08:58
In reply to Re: i feel sick with grief when i think about it » crushedout, posted by Dinah on April 3, 2008, at 21:04:51
Yeah, that sounds rough. I have to keep reminding myself that she obviously can't write how any mushy feeling stuff because that would be unprofessional. Doesn't mean she has no feelings. Although even if she did (have no feelings), would it matter, since she can't express them to me so I'll never really know?Blah blah blah. Rhetorical questions. I guess what makes mine hard is that we spent three and a half years together and to me it was very intimate.
> The worst I got was even colder and more professional. It was from a pdoc, and was obviously a form letter. Except I think it said that I wasn't welcome to come back. Maybe not that obviously, but no door was held open.
>
> I destroyed it pretty quickly. I had been embarrassed by my own behavior. I saw him while I was on Wellbutrin and I was not at all my normal self. My normal self can be needy and unreasonable, but on Wellbutrin I turned into the client from H*ll. My next pdoc put me on a mood stabilizer, then took me off Wellbutrin, and we got along fine.
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2008, at 21:16:00
In reply to Re: i feel sick with grief when i think about it, posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 21:08:58
I think you can hold on to that. Nothing in her letter makes that an unfeasible view. Not all therapists send that letter, but I think it's something that's suggested they do. Just some follow the suggestion better than others. It does have to be professional because it is a professional matter.
That doesn't make the intimacy between you less real.
I understand what you mean about feeling ok until you got the letter. When my therapist was out of the country for six weeks, we had agreed that I could email him. But every time I heard from him, I was upset. While if I didn't hear from him I functioned ok. I finally emailed him and asked him not to contact me any more. A few weeks later, he emailed me to say he hadn't heard from me for a while and was I ok. (eye roll)
I'm not sure what that means. Because even tho I felt reasonably ok if I didn't hear from him, it didn't really mean that I was ok. I just felt ok.
Which doesn't mean anything to your situation. It could just be a tug from the past.
But in either case, it's perfectly understandable.
Posted by Happyflower on April 4, 2008, at 5:58:32
In reply to letter from T hurts, trying to move on fast, posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 18:54:40
It seems to me she is keeping the lines open in case you changed your mind and wanted to go back to her or that she can help you find another T. It seems like a good thing to me.
I think the hurt your are feeling is because of unresolved issues that could be worked out with her in the termination process or with another T.
Tare care crushed out, I know how much it hurts to leave therapy with someone you cared about even if it was for the best or maybe I am projecting here.
HF
Posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 11:08:43
In reply to Re: letter from T hurts, trying to move on fast, posted by Happyflower on April 4, 2008, at 5:58:32
thanks hf. i agree she is letting me know that the lines are open. it hurts because whenever you lose someone it hurts. and getting a letter like that is a painful reminder that (a) she exists and (b) she is only my ex-T and doesn't really care about me as a "regular" person might.perhaps that is an "unresolved" issue, in that i always find it hurtful that i am not really *in* her life, that she of course loves her family more than she loves me. but i spent YEARS trying to resolve that issue and got NOWHERE.
so i have to disagree that i need to work it out with her or another T. i've had it with therapy. i'm done. it was NOT WORKING.
sorry for being so emphatic. i am just frustrated.
> It seems to me she is keeping the lines open in case you changed your mind and wanted to go back to her or that she can help you find another T. It seems like a good thing to me.
> I think the hurt your are feeling is because of unresolved issues that could be worked out with her in the termination process or with another T.
> Tare care crushed out, I know how much it hurts to leave therapy with someone you cared about even if it was for the best or maybe I am projecting here.
> HF
Posted by raisinb on April 4, 2008, at 11:43:02
In reply to letter from T hurts, trying to move on fast, posted by crushedout on April 3, 2008, at 18:54:40
Crushed, I'm sorry :( I guess it's difficult to get through such a big loss without *some* grief and sadness. So you're normal. But it sounds tough.
When one of my relationships ends, I always feel better if I am in control of the rejection. That way *I'm* the one rejecting, rather than being reject-able, so at least I feel on top of the situation. Her letter may have felt like her rejecting you, so the loss becomes compounded with feeling bad about yourself.
Talk therapy isn't for everybody. In fact, I often wonder if it's for me, because it exacerbates my tendency to analyze, analyze, analyze, and never *do* anything to create change (the Hamlet syndrome).
You want your T and you can't have her. If she can't take you any farther than realizing that, maybe you're right that this therapy wasn't as helpful as it could have been? (I don't know, maybe you did learn some things about yourself from that? I haven't been in your therapy, so I don't know). But the idea is that you learn from these painful feelings--and not just to accept the feelings.
Posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 11:47:15
In reply to Re: letter from T hurts, trying to move on fast » crushedout, posted by raisinb on April 4, 2008, at 11:43:02
thanks, raisinb. i feel like you really heard me. :)it's a tough thing to figure out. i'm not *positive* i did the right thing. mostly it has felt right, but of course i think i will never know for sure.
how do you learn from the painful feelings, though? what is there to learn? other than that life is painful and some things, no matter how hard, cannot be changed. :(
> Crushed, I'm sorry :( I guess it's difficult to get through such a big loss without *some* grief and sadness. So you're normal. But it sounds tough.
>
> When one of my relationships ends, I always feel better if I am in control of the rejection. That way *I'm* the one rejecting, rather than being reject-able, so at least I feel on top of the situation. Her letter may have felt like her rejecting you, so the loss becomes compounded with feeling bad about yourself.
>
> Talk therapy isn't for everybody. In fact, I often wonder if it's for me, because it exacerbates my tendency to analyze, analyze, analyze, and never *do* anything to create change (the Hamlet syndrome).
>
> You want your T and you can't have her. If she can't take you any farther than realizing that, maybe you're right that this therapy wasn't as helpful as it could have been? (I don't know, maybe you did learn some things about yourself from that? I haven't been in your therapy, so I don't know). But the idea is that you learn from these painful feelings--and not just to accept the feelings.
Posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 11:50:12
In reply to Re: letter from T hurts, trying to move on fast » raisinb, posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 11:47:15
i totally think i have the hamlet syndrome, too, which is another reason why i quit. i constantly analyze and intellectualize and theorize about my psyche. i don't think it gets me anywhere. in fact, it feels like i've been wallowing and even malingering in therapy (i told my t this in the last session--she seemed surprised). it feels like it keeps me stuck in the problem.i just want to feel like i can stand on my own two feet and i also want to start working on the solution. which so far i have been unable to do within the context of talk therapy.
it's possible cog behavioral or some other type of treatment would be much more helpful to me.
Posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 11:50:45
In reply to p.s. » crushedout, posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 11:50:12
Posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 11:52:53
In reply to Re: letter from T hurts, trying to move on fast » crushedout, posted by raisinb on April 4, 2008, at 11:43:02
your theory about the letter feeling like a rejection is brilliant. i felt good because i had all the control before. this letter felt like a stab in the heart, like her letting me know she cares less than i do or something.you're absolutely right: it felt like a rejection.
maybe seeing that will help me to move on now. i hope.....
Posted by raisinb on April 4, 2008, at 12:06:32
In reply to Re: letter from T hurts, trying to move on fast » raisinb, posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 11:47:15
OK, this is going to be rambling, because I am still struggling with these things, myself. And, it's just me, you probably have different things to learn...
But, in a very general nutshell, I learned that I have never felt good enough, always felt "wrong" or "damaged" in some way, and that most things I want very, very badly, I want because I think they will "fix" or "transform" me in some way. I want my T because getting her will magically make me lovable (I figured this out through analyzing, meticulously, my fantasies about her and thinking about what triggered the feelings).
I also learned that many of my relationships are built on my dishonesty. I love my T because she will settle for nothing less than emotional directness and full vulnerability--she sees through my defenses and dislikes them. This tells me that I didn't know it, but what I am with her is what I wanted to be all along, and that's my challenge and what I need to work on IRL.
And that I have a conflict about others needing me. My feelings for my T are triggered because she needs nothing from me. Other people needing me makes me feel safe, but also burdened and a bit unreal (this is related to my mother), and people who don't need me call up this complicated response of rejection, attempts to control, etc., with too many defenses and passive-aggressive ruminations to list.
I also learned, paradoxically, that somewhere in me is the knowledge that I am okay and fine, and there's nothing horrible wrong with me, and I don't *need* anybody. I just want connections and closeness. But when I get past the desperation of finding someone or something to fix me, then I am in a place where fear doesn't prevent me getting those connections.
And...that is all that is coming to my head right now. But it took a long, long time for me to get past how much I wanted my therapist to a place where I was emotionally able to figure it all out. I had to get out of it *some* (at least enough to say, okay, "here is what I can learn from this" as opposed to "oh no, I love her and we are meant to be but I can't have her and I am f*cked"). So eventually I was able to focus on me, rather than bemoaning the loss of her.
But I had to get to a certain level of self-acceptance before I could even start looking honestly at myself. Until I got there, I was focusing on my feelings for my therapist because I had some deep conviction that I was messed up and getting her would be the only way to fix me.
And if your therapist couldn't get you to that place (or more accurately, you couldn't get to that place with her help) I think it is important to move on.
I doubt that makes any sense, and again, it's just me...but I think that is the point of having this pain...so we can learn to see that even if we got our Ts we would still have the same problems, that would be only a temporary fix. What really has to happen is for us to change to become who we want to be, and then we'll know, deep down, that we're lovable and wonderful, and that there are lots of people who will see it.
Posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 12:13:53
In reply to Re: letter from T hurts, trying to move on fast » crushedout, posted by raisinb on April 4, 2008, at 12:06:32
I guess I always have to have the last word. Here's what I wrote:Dear [ex-T],
I got your letter. I appreciate your keeping the lines open. However, I just want to point out a couple things while I still remember clearly what happened.
One is that the last three sessions I felt you were unable to hear me. The first one, especially. You accused of: violating your privacy; "bulldozing" you (still don't know what that means); "crossing a line" that you never told me existed; and not respecting you, among other things.
At the end of our last session, you made clear that you hadn't heard me throughout the entire session saying I did not KNOW whether I could handle a termination process with you (you heard somehow that I had decided I did not want one, even though I never said that). You also put a condition on participating in the termination process with me, which you did not inform me of until the very end of the session, which was that I not do anymore internet research about you or your family. Even if I were ok with this condition, I didn't feel it was appropriate to impose it on the termination process and I didn't think it was fair of you to inform me of it at the end of our session.
These attitudes and behaviors from you helped inform my decision not to continue, because I felt it would be more harmful than helpful.
I wish we could have ended on better terms, but I feel like I got out while I was still in one piece, and things have been going fairly well. I am still in treatment with Dr. Roth and I will certainly seek out therapy again if I need it. It was a very hard decision I made to terminate and I am still struggling with it.
I realize you are human and that you make mistakes sometimes. I wish you had worked out your feelings about my research on your own during the intervening week between my disclosure and your reaction. For the most part, I have found you to be extremely professional and I have appreciated your boundaries. I wish you had brought up the internet research as a problem much earlier and for my own benefit rather than your own. But I know you basically mean well, and you are a good person. I do believe that, and I will hold onto it.
[crushed]
Posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 12:31:26
In reply to I emailed her, posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 12:13:53
now y'all know the name of my pdoc. luckily it's pretty generic so i don't think it matters.
Posted by raisinb on April 4, 2008, at 12:36:19
In reply to p.s. » crushedout, posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 11:50:12
I think all talk therapy Ts (at least the ones I've been to) are a little too in love with insight. They think insight always means progress. But what can you do--it's who they are :)
On the upside, I know mine sees progress when I don't, because I'm too in the thick of things.
Posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 12:36:35
In reply to Re: letter from T hurts, trying to move on fast » crushedout, posted by raisinb on April 4, 2008, at 12:06:32
wow, raisinb, it does sound like you learned a lot. makes me think you have a very good T. my T just never got me this deep. i don't think she would have the first clue how.i can't shop for another T, though. not now anyway. i have had too much t-related trauma in my life in the past few years. i am not sure i could ever figure out that much stuff anyway. and it's possible i don't need it?
i do feel lovable. if anything i am overly confident of my lovability although that doesn't sound possible. if i even got my T as I think i want i bet i wouldn't want her anymore. she'd probably bore me to tears. also, she's not very smart.
now i'm rambling. let me stop. but thanks so much for sharing that. i want to re-read it because it is really amazing how much good work you have done. see, that shows me that therapy isn't necessarily a total waste of time. not for everyone, anyway. and that's a good thing.
> OK, this is going to be rambling, because I am still struggling with these things, myself. And, it's just me, you probably have different things to learn...
>
> But, in a very general nutshell, I learned that I have never felt good enough, always felt "wrong" or "damaged" in some way, and that most things I want very, very badly, I want because I think they will "fix" or "transform" me in some way. I want my T because getting her will magically make me lovable (I figured this out through analyzing, meticulously, my fantasies about her and thinking about what triggered the feelings).
>
> I also learned that many of my relationships are built on my dishonesty. I love my T because she will settle for nothing less than emotional directness and full vulnerability--she sees through my defenses and dislikes them. This tells me that I didn't know it, but what I am with her is what I wanted to be all along, and that's my challenge and what I need to work on IRL.
>
> And that I have a conflict about others needing me. My feelings for my T are triggered because she needs nothing from me. Other people needing me makes me feel safe, but also burdened and a bit unreal (this is related to my mother), and people who don't need me call up this complicated response of rejection, attempts to control, etc., with too many defenses and passive-aggressive ruminations to list.
>
> I also learned, paradoxically, that somewhere in me is the knowledge that I am okay and fine, and there's nothing horrible wrong with me, and I don't *need* anybody. I just want connections and closeness. But when I get past the desperation of finding someone or something to fix me, then I am in a place where fear doesn't prevent me getting those connections.
>
> And...that is all that is coming to my head right now. But it took a long, long time for me to get past how much I wanted my therapist to a place where I was emotionally able to figure it all out. I had to get out of it *some* (at least enough to say, okay, "here is what I can learn from this" as opposed to "oh no, I love her and we are meant to be but I can't have her and I am f*cked"). So eventually I was able to focus on me, rather than bemoaning the loss of her.
>
> But I had to get to a certain level of self-acceptance before I could even start looking honestly at myself. Until I got there, I was focusing on my feelings for my therapist because I had some deep conviction that I was messed up and getting her would be the only way to fix me.
>
> And if your therapist couldn't get you to that place (or more accurately, you couldn't get to that place with her help) I think it is important to move on.
>
> I doubt that makes any sense, and again, it's just me...but I think that is the point of having this pain...so we can learn to see that even if we got our Ts we would still have the same problems, that would be only a temporary fix. What really has to happen is for us to change to become who we want to be, and then we'll know, deep down, that we're lovable and wonderful, and that there are lots of people who will see it.
Posted by Phillipa on April 4, 2008, at 12:39:23
In reply to Re: i feel sick with grief when i think about it, posted by Annierose on April 3, 2008, at 20:14:05
Didn't read all the posts but I did agree that is what the letter sounded like to me. I kind of thought it was nice of her to take the time. But that's me. Phillipa sure I've missed the meat of the other posts will later on and maybe then this will not apply. Phillipa and good luck crushedout.
Posted by DAisym on April 4, 2008, at 12:43:03
In reply to I emailed her, posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 12:13:53
I think your email might provide closure. Hopefully she won't respond with a "I said, you said" clarification - it will just get defensive and I think you are both parting with some regrets and yet knowing that much of the work you did was good.
For what it's worth - our agency requires closing letters from our staff when we end services for any reason. It isn't just legal stuff, it provides a paper trail for billing and filing and a bunch of other things. Too many times the therapist is the only one who knew that there had been a client change, and admin really does need to know, unless she is a solo practictioner. And we do have a "standard" form letter that is individualized but contains some required information.
I hope you can put all this behind you soon. It reminds me that all relationship change over time and sometimes we change in ways that make ending or leaving the best option, even if there are regrets.
Posted by raisinb on April 4, 2008, at 12:43:26
In reply to Re: letter from T hurts, trying to move on fast » raisinb, posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 12:36:35
I had a T who used to say, "well, we don't know what your journey is." So maybe your journey includes another step besides talk therapy right now, or maybe not. But there are many possibilities.
Re: doing good work--it's so hard, because everything I just wrote I probably knew *intellectually* the first month I fell for my T. But to know it viscerally--that takes a h*ll of a lot longer, and I still don't really know it yet. When I do, I bet I'll be just about done (though the road can have many twists and turns).
Posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 12:53:31
In reply to Re: I emailed her » crushedout, posted by DAisym on April 4, 2008, at 12:43:03
Thanks, Daisy, for that perspective. It's true.She is a solo practitioner, but she is very anal about paperwork and stuff. Which is probably good in any case but it makes me a little angry because it reminds me that she cares more about her *ss than anything else. or rather, than me. :(
as for your point about her writing back, I don't think she will, but maybe I should have specifically asked her not to.
now i'm wondering if i should send a follow-up. ugh.
> I think your email might provide closure. Hopefully she won't respond with a "I said, you said" clarification - it will just get defensive and I think you are both parting with some regrets and yet knowing that much of the work you did was good.
>
> For what it's worth - our agency requires closing letters from our staff when we end services for any reason. It isn't just legal stuff, it provides a paper trail for billing and filing and a bunch of other things. Too many times the therapist is the only one who knew that there had been a client change, and admin really does need to know, unless she is a solo practictioner. And we do have a "standard" form letter that is individualized but contains some required information.
>
> I hope you can put all this behind you soon. It reminds me that all relationship change over time and sometimes we change in ways that make ending or leaving the best option, even if there are regrets.
Posted by DAisym on April 4, 2008, at 17:12:47
In reply to Re: I emailed her » DAisym, posted by crushedout on April 4, 2008, at 12:53:31
Try not to over-think it - I'd let it go.
And, I have to say that I really do think her letter wasn't about covering her a** - at least not most of it. I think she was letting you know that the door was open if you want to return and she was saying good-bye. You were obviously important enough for her to offer that, she could have just said, "I'm confirming you quit. I've closed your file."
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.