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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on December 13, 2007, at 18:44:38
actually, he said TWO f words.
He was talking about what it's like to be attracted to someone. He said that indulging in most attractions is likely to end in a "f*ck*ng disaster" I was laughing so hard. so was he. he's a funnyT.
Then he used the OTHER f word.
FORGIVENESS.
He said that I probably have to forgive my dad if I'm going to be able to get past the past. I'm still trying to figure this one out.
different levels of personal responsibility
-an accident
-a mistake
-an intentional act with unknown consequences
-an intentional act with known consequences
-sadismWell, what if it were an accident. would I have to forgive? who's in the wrong? me? I feel like if I forgive someone then I absolve them of responsibility and then it becomes my fault. Like I become more tarnished via forgiving them.
I just don't GET IT. and it makes me really upset that people left and right are like "GET OVER IT". T says that what dad did was wrong. wrong like a mistake, or an intentional act with unknown consequences. I hold dad more accountable. How can I forgive something that isn't even acknowledged.
It makes me mad.
yeah. so, it must be a big deal, because I tried to steer the discussion away from it, and he brought it up AGAIN. I think this is unprecedented. he's pushing me pretty hard to do this thing that I don't wanna do.
At the end of the session, I told him that it would be my last until january, he looked concerned and said "are you going to be okay" "I guess. I've been through some pretty hard stuff" he still seemed concerned. I think maybe he was pushing me too hard, but didn't realize it. but i came home and was crying.
I feel like such a whiny brat "but I don't wanna..."
and some other unrelated stuff. I will post below.
-Ll
Posted by DAisym on December 13, 2007, at 19:01:15
In reply to t said the F word possible trigger ?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 13, 2007, at 18:44:38
I'm going to respectfully disagree with your therapist here. You do not have to forgive your dad. You might need to forgive yourself if you hold yourself in anyway responsible, but it doesn't sound like you do.
I think some things are unforgiveable. That doesn't mean you don't have a relationship with him, or that you overtly hate him, or something like that. But it never has to be OK that he hurt you. Never.
As far as "get over it" -- I hear this all the time, both from others and myself. But if it was as easy as that, don't you think you already would have? The process of acknowledging the trauma, and the consequences, both major and minor, takes time. And it takes a witness. This is one of those places where the person hurting makes others uncomfortable so they begin to wish the person who was hurting would stop hurting - or at least pretend to stop. But that doesn't help the hurt - and you are doing nothing wrong by hurting.
So don't push yourself too hard. It can sneak up on you...kind of gets opened up and than wham! there is more than you bargained for. Take time to come back to yourself. My son calls this therapy-hangover. Feels very much the same - like a train ran over you.
Take good care.
Posted by Llurpsienoodle on December 13, 2007, at 19:04:39
In reply to Re: t said the F word possible trigger ? » llurpsienoodle, posted by DAisym on December 13, 2007, at 19:01:15
> I'm going to respectfully disagree with your therapist here. You do not have to forgive your dad. You might need to forgive yourself if you hold yourself in anyway responsible, but it doesn't sound like you do.
>
thanks daisym, you always have such thoughtful responses. I think the reason why T wanted me to forgive is actually so that I could forgive myself. because I feel so nasty and disgusting about what happened. that if I forgive dad, maybe I can let myself off the hook. I dunno. it's always the adult's fault. I can only tell myself this a hundred times. and still the nastiness sticks to me like some fetid slime.
Posted by lovelorn on December 13, 2007, at 19:14:00
In reply to t said the F word possible trigger ?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 13, 2007, at 18:44:38
>I feel like if I forgive someone then I absolve them of responsibility and then it becomes my fault. Like I become more tarnished via forgiving them.
It is interesting you associate forgiving with it ending up being more your fault.
Oftentimes when I have difficulty with certain words or concepts of words, I find it helps to look up the word in the dictionary and really read the meaning of the word.
To forgive:
1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b: to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender)Forgiveness: = : the act of forgiving
Forgiving:
1 : willing or able to forgive
2 : allowing room for error or weaknessNo where in there does it mention that you become more at fault or them less responsible for what happened. Maybe something to talk to your T about on why you feel that way. I hope you will find resolution.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2007, at 19:48:14
In reply to t said the F word possible trigger ?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 13, 2007, at 18:44:38
I'm thinking lovelorn has a point. It might all boil down to different definitions of forgiveness. I feel no huge obligations to others to forgive them for what they knowingly or recklessly did. Most particularly when they haven't asked for forgiveness with the three R's. Taking responsibilty, expressing remorse, and repairing what can be repaired (or taking steps so that no further damage is done).
I feel no obligation to others for that. I don't need to let people be a part of my life, tell them that what they did was ok, or that I still love them, or that I will ever forget what they've done.
I feel no obligation to them. I feel some obligation to myself to... Darn, this is hard to express. Not to let go of the anger exactly. Not to come to peace exactly. But maybe to not be so angry that I can't live my life? I feel some obligation to myself to live the best life I can live, and to experience what joy I can experience, and to do what I can to make the world a bit better than it might have been without me, in whatever small way.
It's not quite forgiveness in the accepted sense of the word, but it seems to fit some of the definitions lovelorn put forth?
Posted by lovelorn on December 13, 2007, at 20:06:11
In reply to Re: t said the F word possible trigger ? » llurpsienoodle, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2007, at 19:48:14
>It might all boil down to different definitions of forgiveness
Yes. That is why I find it useful to go right to the source - a dictionary.
We sometimes add on our own meaning to the word or concept, rightly or wrongly.
>Most particularly when they haven't asked for forgiveness
That's the thing with forgiveness. You can grant it in mind and emotion without anyone ever having to ask for it. Not saying it is easy. It sometimes takes a looong time to forgive someone of something, and some things maybe never. It may not be in our capacity.
>I feel no obligation to them. I feel some obligation to myself...
I think that is the point in terms of certain forgiveness.
Posted by fallsfall on December 13, 2007, at 20:44:49
In reply to t said the F word possible trigger ?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 13, 2007, at 18:44:38
I feel like if I forgive someone then I absolve them of responsibility and then it becomes my fault. Like I become more tarnished via forgiving them.
There is no law of conservation of guilt. If you forgive someone their guilt doesn't have to go anywhere - your forgiveness makes the guilt disappear.
But I agree with Daisy. You don't have to forgive him. The important part is that you recognize that YOU did nothing wrong. I know that is so hard.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2007, at 20:55:47
In reply to Re: t said the F word possible trigger ? » llurpsienoodle, posted by fallsfall on December 13, 2007, at 20:44:49
Yes, absolving of guilt. That was the part of forgiveness that I feel no obligation to do. A lot of times, it really isn't my place to do it anyway.
I'm thinking more of accepting that someone is guilty. Accepting that they may not have been the person we wanted them to be, maybe not a loving or responsible or ethical person at all. That they did something wrong that hurt us, or someone else.
I'm sure there must be able to be forgiveness without absolution.
Posted by lovelorn on December 13, 2007, at 21:06:51
In reply to Re: t said the F word possible trigger ? » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2007, at 20:55:47
>Yes, absolving of guilt. That was the part of forgiveness that I feel no obligation to do
That would be a case of adding on meaning. If you re check the meaning of forgiveness from the dicionary, there is no mention that the person is absolved of being guilty of having done x,y or z. What one has done has done. No amount of forgiveness undoes what the person did. It's done. A person who has actually done something is guilty of having done it.
Posted by Phillipa on December 14, 2007, at 0:12:43
In reply to Re: t said the F word possible trigger ? » Dinah, posted by lovelorn on December 13, 2007, at 21:06:51
I'm not religious at all but if you are don't you have to forgive to go to heaven? I don't know. Anyone know? Phillipa
Posted by seldomseen on December 14, 2007, at 7:15:44
In reply to t said the F word possible trigger ?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 13, 2007, at 18:44:38
Ah forgiveness... SUCH a sticky wicket!
For me there was no doubt that searching for the ability to forgive was central, although it probably shouldn't have been.
I realized early on that the people that really hurt me did so because they were sick (I mean as in truly mentally ill), didn't know any better or were never exposed to any thing different.
Because I hit that realization so early, I think it substantially hindered my progress in therapy because I had to hold two opposite viewpoints simultaneously. It's almost as though it blocked my ability to process what happened to me.
I could never be truly mad at them as it was always tempered with "well they were sick and blah blah blah". It was hard to grieve what happened to me because it was all so fr*gg*ng understandable.
It definately put the burden of being selfless on me at a time when I should have been my most selfish.
There will be times when you are just blanched with rage and there will be times when you are crippled with grief and it's all okay. There may even be times when your heart is bursting with understanding and forgiveness.
So, if you consider forgivness to be goal in your therapy, I would definately try to view it as a process and not an event.
Seldom.
Posted by antigua3 on December 14, 2007, at 7:16:24
In reply to t said the F word possible trigger ?, posted by llurpsienoodle on December 13, 2007, at 18:44:38
I agree with many others. I so wanted to "forgive" my father so I could get over what he did to me. That put me in such a bind that I jumped right to forgiveness and didn't deal with the intermediate steps of assigning blame (and forgiving myself) and anger.
Somehow or other, to me forgiveness assigns me the responsibility, and doesn't place adequate responsibility on my father. So, at this point, forgiveness is not my responsibility. That said, and it probably doesn't make sense, I'm still stuck in forgiving him and not dealing with the other steps.
antigua
Posted by rskontos on December 14, 2007, at 8:57:25
In reply to Re: t said the F word possible trigger ?, posted by antigua3 on December 14, 2007, at 7:16:24
Llursie, my t and I had this discussing too. She said right now you are still mad at your parents and that is ok. She said forgiveness is not for them it is for you. It doesn't not excuse them for what they did as that is NOT excuseable. They were the adults and so therefore were supposed to take care of you, love you and nurture and protect you . They did not. Forgiving them does not take away the guilt of that crime not the cruelty of it. It allows you to heal. It is only for you I ask you to consider it. It will take you further in your development as a whole person. You don't have to love them, honor you r mothers memory or feel anything for them but in forgiving them you will learn to forgive yourself.
I am not there yet either. I am just sharing with you her words.
I understand it intellitectually not emotionally yet.
rk
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