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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 12:39:58
I don't want to talk about my old T, I am sick of thinking about all of this. I have mixed feeling, earlier this morning I was thinking of how nice it is that i have therapy already tomrorow. But now after reading articles on sexual attraction in the therapy room, I am just feeling angry about my old T. A lot of articles says that T's tend to be narcissic as a group.
They are in a tough postion, because they can't avoid their feelings because it makes them act out in other ways that is untheraputic. (which I think my T did) My new T said my old T was not dealing with this with a high self esteem, he got scared. But yet the feeling is a taboo subject, they usually can't tell the client, but there is an embarrest ment to talk about it with colleges.
Something better needs to be done to help T's deal with what is actually normal feelings, and how to with it without hurting their client. It is a sad situation. My new T says this experiece will help me in my future, but I am sick of learning things the hard way.
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2007, at 14:18:45
In reply to I don't feel like going to therapy tomorrow, posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 12:39:58
I've never read any articles that say that. Do you have links? My therapist may be many things, but a narcissist is not one.
I do think the topic is too lightly touched in many (but certainly not all) training courses. I wonder if there's any way for a consumer advocate group to impress the importance of these things in training.
You don't have to talk about your therapist if that's not what you want to work on tomorrow. When you entered into therapy with this therapist, you had other goals in mind as well. Maybe it's a good time to switch gears for a while.
Posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 15:09:13
In reply to Re: I don't feel like going to therapy tomorrow, posted by Dinah on September 30, 2007, at 14:18:45
Hi Dinah,
I did read it in one article about most therpist's have narcisstic tendendicies, but I looked at so many, I don't know which one. I found our university's online library where I can research all those journals,books, and studies for free! Maybe a bad thing! lol The music one is really neat for jazz and classical though, what a treasure!
You are right I have many things I can talk about, maybe my disgustion with the profession as a whole ? Probably not a good thing to talk about before I talk to my professor who wants to do research with me. uugghh!
Posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 15:33:27
In reply to Re: I don't feel like going to therapy tomorrow » Dinah, posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 15:09:13
I even asked him last week if it is uncomfortable for him to listen to me about what happened with my old T. He said no, he can handle it, he has matured enough as a T where it might be hard for some newer T's, he is okay with it. He said it is hard for him to see me suffering emotionally about it because he still has his sensitivity.
The reason I asked him was because he seems reluctant to hear my whole story about what happened with my old T. I told him he doesn't know everything yet, but yet he says he knows enough to know what happened.
Well this makes me think that he doesn't want to know more, because if he did, he would be required by law to do something and he wants to protect his collaege. I could be wrong, it could be other reasons too.
From the beginning he tells me he is going to be reserved in what he says about it. Well last week I told him that when he says that, I feel like he doesn't believe me, and that I have done something wrong and not my old T. Then he finally said that my old T should have used other ways to reset his boundries with me, one's that shouldn't have hurt me. That my old T acted out when he became unconfident in the situation, mainly out of lack of self esteem. We talked about how the bigger the ego, the less self esteem most people have.
I feel a little better about this. My new T knew my old T was being resistant to talk about my feelings. So I think he is really trying to honest with me, especially over sensistive topics like this one. He is trying to show me how T's feel about this when it happens to them with a client in other circumstances. I am really getting to know firsthand on how T's feel about clients, they do have feelings too. I am learning a lot about both sides but sometimes I don't want to hear about my old T's side. He just won't say to me that my old T messed up. He finally has said he should have used other ways. I guess that is close as I am going to get on this. He has said that my old T was only human. It makes me wonder when we come to the child abuse issues, that he won't say my mother did something wrong. I know he will say she is only human, that's a given, I hear that every session.
When I said I think my father really did the best he knew how, he then said so did my mother. I am not sure what to think of this.
Is being human a good excuse for what my T and what my mother did to me? Am I just suppose to accept it because they are only human? Just boggles my mind.
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2007, at 17:03:48
In reply to My new T's resistance in this subject about old T, posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 15:33:27
:-(
HF. Maybe he explains it as she was human, cuz she IS human, albeit a f*ck*d up human....
In this way it means that no abuse was your fault. You did not bring it upon yourself. Humans screw up. Myself included. You were not 'meant' to be hurt either. Your ma was just screwed up. Unfortunately you had to live with this. But you survived and gonna do good with all you have learned. Your Ma is not evil. Your not a spawn of an evil one. Your just the unfortunate child of a mentally ill person. And your oldT is human too, and he f*ck*d up. But hey, you a desirable one! LOL! so hey, it musta been hard for him. So again, your oldT didn't set out to hurt you, he has his flaws and got caught in them and hopefully will learn from this and be a better T in future. We can only hope.
So mebbe thats what he means?
That we live in a f*ck*d up world, full of imperfect humanity, and we goto do the best we can despite these challenges, despite the pain, and just try and be good as we can, and try our best, and help each other thru all the sh*t life chucks at us.
Maybe thats it.
Wish I had better words...
M
Posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 17:37:04
In reply to Re: My new T's resistance in this subject about old T » happyflower, posted by muffled on September 30, 2007, at 17:03:48
Yeah,
I get what you mean Muffy, your words are right on target. I believe I understand the being human thing, I just don't like being told that when I am in so much pain. For him to say that, it kinda feels he is dismissing what I am feeling, kinda like my pain isn't justifified on what happened to me.
Maybe I need a different T. I just get the feeling he is trying to protect my old T more than he is trying to help me. "the good old boys network of protection".
He doesn't seem to want to know everything that happened in my old T relastionship, well I think it is important for me to get it all out, and if I can't tell him, who can I tell? It is making feel like red flags are going up all over saying , don't trust this T.I feel like I have experienced some bad inhuman things as a child and if he is just going to use the term, we are all human, I can't see how this is going to be helpful to me. I can't imagaine telling a holocost victim of the concentration camps, that Hitler was only human. Does this make any sense to anyone.
It reminds me of certain relatives and people telling me my mom did the best she could. Well WTF? Maybe that is true, but am I suppose to just accept what happened to me. It just feels like my pain is unjustified. Like I am suppose to just suck it up and quite complaining or something. I am thinking I need to cancel tomorrow.
Posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 17:45:26
In reply to Re: My new T's resistance in this subject about old T » happyflower, posted by muffled on September 30, 2007, at 17:03:48
I am not sure why, normally it is easier for me to relate to men. I am just not sure my T is being helpful to me, it is making frusterauted about the stuff he says.
Plus he disclosed to me when I asked him many times I don't want to know anything about him. Well now I know he is an overachiever, and he is a bad *ssh*l* of a husband (his words). He has told me too much already, I want a blank slate. Can't T just stop talking about themselves? WTF?Plus he had a heart exam after my appointment, didn't he learn a damn thing I told him about my old T? Why did he have to tell me? I don't want to know anything!!!
There is this lady who I orginally tried to first see but she was on vacation, in the same office, so I went with my current T instead. I am thinking of changing. I am thinking of canceling tomorrow and setting up an appointment with her instead and just tell the receptionist that I am not going to see my current therpist anymore. What do you think? I need some advice please!
Posted by Wittgenstein on September 30, 2007, at 19:20:34
In reply to Maybe I need a female T, I am sooo frusterated!, posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 17:45:26
I feel for you (((HF))).
I haven't posted on babble for ages - I've been dealing with a lot of stuff concerning some of the issues you have mentioned in this thread - how to think of my mother for what she did. How to move on and get on with life without suppressing/dissociating but rather integrating and healing.
I would find it very hard to accept 'she's only human' comment. I think Muffled gave a good response to this, but when I read your posts, the example of Hitler also came to mind. To talk of the most atrocious of human behaviours as being 'only human' makes little sense to me. An essentially good person who 'slips up' and does the occasional stupid thing is 'only human' but a person who brutalises others again an again (an essentially bad person) - yes, their behaviour is human behaviour, as they are human beings, but it sits at the extreme of what is human and most can only reconcile it as being inhuman. To think of doing such an act oneself makes one sick.
It isn't 'only human' for a mother to abuse her children. It goes against the principles of motherhood and what most mothers hold dear to their hearts - it goes against typical human behaviour. It is a human tragedy - for both the abused and the abuser - that's how I would see it. What I don't like about the 'only human' perspective is that it suggests the person is immune from culpability - it is to say "anyone would have done this in this situation - and thus it can be excused as 'only being human'. The whole point of the phrase is to distinguish between cases where humans are only human and cases where people suspend their rights and status as human beings and act inhumanly (maybe an interesting example is that of 'crimes of passion' versus the calculated crimes of cold-blooded killers). If we extend 'only human' to all reaches of human behaviour the phrase ceases to have any meaning at all.
I can understand why you feel disillusioned with your T - and that's without even mentioning the matter of his awkwardness with your opening up about your previous T. That said, I have followed what you have written since beginning therapy with him and he sounds like a good T. Have you tried to discuss how you feel about his 'only human' comments and about his resistance to the topic of your former T? Have you explained how describing your mother as being only human makes you feel and what it implies (in your opinion)? For his failings, he seems to have some very tuned skills (for example, his ability to engage EMDR with you and allow you to really feel things in his presence).
Please, before canceling tomorrow and moving on, speak to him about your concerns - give him the chance to understand and work with you - if it doesn't help, then you know you have done your best and then decide what to do next - but at least there is a good chance he will see where you are coming from and this could bring you both closer and enable you to enter the topics that until now have encountered resistance.
I'm in chat, if you want to chat.
Take care,
Witti
Posted by gardenergirl on September 30, 2007, at 19:23:36
In reply to Maybe I need a female T, I am sooo frusterated!, posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 17:45:26
It sounds like you've got a good topic for your session tomorrow---all these questions, feelings, and doubts. It's important for you to feel that you two are working towards the same agenda, and your question about whether he might be protecting colleagues is a valid one.
That said, it may be that he tends not to comment about your former T's behavior so that he can stay focused on what it means to you, i.e. how it's affecting you here and now. In addition, he may be aware that he's only hearing one side of the experiences. Your experiences are the ones that count as far as the work you two are doing together. But making a judgment about another professional's behavior really requires knowing more about the whole picture, imo. Finally, he may be concerned about splitting. If I were him, I would not want to position myself or contribute to being positioned as the "good" T and your former T as "the bad T". That may not be happening, but it's something that he should keep an eye peeled for. And the solution to that is to keep as neutral a position as possible so that he can be open to your experiences but not be drawn to one side.
Just my immediate reactions, influenced by cold medicine and pain, so keep that salt shaker handy...
Good luck tomorrow.
gg
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2007, at 20:02:47
In reply to Maybe I need a female T, I am sooo frusterated!, posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 17:45:26
Sorry if I said a wrong thing HF.
Its just I used to think of evil too much....its a bit of a trigger for me. So now I try to stick with the messed up 'human' idea, cuz the alternative i don't think about.
There is no level of 'how bad' stuff was. Its...whats the word?...relative?, anyways, its like the same thing can happene to two diff people, but depending on theor makeup and life circumstance, the results can be quite diff. Also as mentioned in other threads, the nature of the abuse is affecting, also duration and age of abuse etc. There are SO many variables. There is no question your abuse was horrific and that your 'mother' has serious, serious issues, but that doesn't matter so much, levelwise, cuz its got so many variables.
Your pain is bad, no matter what.
Your 'mother' is seriuously f*ck*d, true.
But she also human, and not neccessarily evil incarnate.
I dunno if this makes sense.
So I am guessing the 'only human' thing is in no way meant to belittle the pain you must feel.
I guess its just a comment on the reality of this world.
It sucks.
In so many ways.
But then I heard my son give a funny belly laugh today.....and I am glad I still here, wrecked though I am, I am glad I was here to feel his laugh, and to join in and feel joy in my body.
So no matter whats happened to me, I enjoyed that moment.
So I goto not give up. I goto grow thru my adversity. I goto do what I can.
Its SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard sometimes to get thru the day, to understand what happens thats so horrific in this world, to go on despite it.
But I still here.
I hope to be here awhile.
HF, you are an amazing person. I think you got so much to offer.
As for female T I dunno.
As for this T, I dunno.
As for DISCUSSING this with this T, I say yes. At least give him a chance, and then if you walk away, its with a clear reality of what went on.
I wish you the best HF.
M
Posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 20:18:23
In reply to Re: Maybe I need a female T, I am sooo frusterated » happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on September 30, 2007, at 19:23:36
Hey Thanks GG<
That makes sense being neutral. But you are right it will make for a good topic for tomrrow's therapy.
The salt shaker comment, was so damn funny, I almost spit out my milk all over the screen! ;-)
Hope you are feeling better soon! (besides I am all out of salt!)
Posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 20:21:54
In reply to Re: Maybe I need a female T, I am sooo frusterated! » happyflower, posted by muffled on September 30, 2007, at 20:02:47
You didn't say anything wrong!!! I promise! I just got word diarrea and talked more in my post to you that was meant for everyone too, not directed torwards you. I really appreciate your suppport! I understand what you mean, really I do. Witty got me calmed down in chat tonight, so I am going to talk to my new T about my concerns tomorrow! I am going to bed now, it will be a big day.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 30, 2007, at 20:59:27
In reply to Re: Maybe I need a female T, I am sooo frusterated » gardenergirl, posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 20:18:23
> The salt shaker comment, was so damn funny, I almost spit out my milk all over the screen! ;-)As long as it doesn't come out your nose.... ;)
> Hope you are feeling better soon! (besides I am all out of salt!)
Thanks. About the salt, too many margaritas lately? :)
gg
Posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 21:28:51
In reply to Re: Maybe I need a female T, I am sooo frusterated » happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on September 30, 2007, at 20:59:27
Happyflower, my mother messed up my childhood and I have tried very hard and succeeded in not messing up my daughter's and son's both are happy and doing well. So I understand how you feel about a T saying to see she is or was human. Mine explained it differently. But all in all it isn't how they choose to explain it, it is how it makes sense to you. It is how you live with or better yet how you can make it not matter in your life anymore. Lay it to rest maybe. I didn't have a T while I was raising my children, 19 and 14, I just didn't want to mess them up like I felt I was messed up. I worked hard. I don't know why my mother made the choices she and my father made. But I have had to work hard to make them not matter to me. Does this make sense. So if the way the T explains it to you and you try to talk it out keep trying for a while and then just discard it. I think the past cannot always be worked out. But you can make it not ruin your life and those around you. I hope this is relevant and makes sense. I have thought about it a long time in regards to my own life and sometimes my T makes great observations and insights and sometimes not so good. I work with those I can and discard those I can't. Not everything they give us will work for us and we must decide for ourselves and that I think will help us to stay whole through the process. To keep thinking for ourselves. I hope this helps if not just discard what I said too, LOL!!!!
Posted by frida on October 1, 2007, at 8:38:31
In reply to Re: My new T's resistance in this subject about old T » muffled, posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 17:37:04
Dear Happyflower,
I understand how that comment can hurt you. It would have hurt me too. I think I would try to explain this to him, to see what he truly meant and if that applies to your mother (if she deserves that name) too. The example of Hitler also came to my mind. Who thinks of the person who went through the abuse and all that suffering? Why sympathize with the abuser and his reasons?
Child abuse..is a crime.no child should go through such torture.
I would never say that the abuser's behaviour is 'only human'.My T gets angry for me at my father and also my mother who didn't do anything. She has told me how this makes me feel and it was validating to me to know she views it as a crime and as something that can never be justified, no way. The few times she has tried to understand their position, I've felt hurt and told her so..I Don't like her saying my dad was sick, because it makes me feel that it justifies what he did.
She doesn't, and I prefer when she shows anger towards him and compassion for the little girl I was. She has said that if her husband ever did something like that she'd feel the need to kill him.I'd talk it over with your new T. Maybe he can clarify what he meant and you can tell him how this has made you feel and he can make it right?
Let us know how it goes.
Frida
> I get what you mean Muffy, your words are right on target. I believe I understand the being human thing, I just don't like being told that when I am in so much pain. For him to say that, it kinda feels he is dismissing what I am feeling, kinda like my pain isn't justifified on what happened to me.
> Maybe I need a different T. I just get the feeling he is trying to protect my old T more than he is trying to help me. "the good old boys network of protection".
> He doesn't seem to want to know everything that happened in my old T relastionship, well I think it is important for me to get it all out, and if I can't tell him, who can I tell? It is making feel like red flags are going up all over saying , don't trust this T.
>
> I feel like I have experienced some bad inhuman things as a child and if he is just going to use the term, we are all human, I can't see how this is going to be helpful to me. I can't imagaine telling a holocost victim of the concentration camps, that Hitler was only human. Does this make any sense to anyone.
>
> It reminds me of certain relatives and people telling me my mom did the best she could. Well WTF? Maybe that is true, but am I suppose to just accept what happened to me. It just feels like my pain is unjustified. Like I am suppose to just suck it up and quite complaining or something. I am thinking I need to cancel tomorrow.
Posted by Dinah on October 1, 2007, at 8:51:30
In reply to (((((((MUFFY))))))))))))))))))))!, posted by happyflower on September 30, 2007, at 20:21:54
I'm glad you decided to talk about it.
While I understand why you'd be concerned, and worry that his reaction would generalize to other situations, it also occurs to me to wonder about the timing.
It's just really hit home that your other therapist is gone, and you're grieving, and angry with yourself as well. You've been pretty happy with this therapist, and mentioned the ways he was more nurturing and willing to bend more in trying to help you. Is it at all possible that some of your distress about your old therapist is affecting your anger at this one? Either because this one is not the old one, or because you left the old one and went to this one, or even for the ways that your current therapist does criticize your therapist, even if you want him to? Or maybe even because he does offer things your old therapist didn't, and that feels disloyal to your old therapist, and you might be angry with your old therapist for not offering those things?
I'm aware that my feelings for T3 were mixed up with my feelings for my therapist. I think it's something that happens.
I do think you should talk to him about self disclosure. You really don't need that right now.
This is the end of the thread.
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