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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gazo on May 31, 2007, at 19:11:15
ok, this is discussion, just discussion of the issues around the issue. Please, no pleading with people not to do it and PLEASE do not use this thread to threaten or suggest you're about to do it. Also.. DO NOT use this to research methods. USe judgement when talking about specifics.
This isn't about crisis intervention. What i thought would be useful is a discussion of thoughts about suicide, reasons for feeling suicidal, ethics, laws, etc. It's about the discussion of having lost someone, times we came close...
i beg people to be more than civil, be considerate. Personally i have lost people to suicide, i get powerfully suicidal and i very nearly followed through several times. i don't want to encourage anyone to do it, but i don't want to just have this turn into "please don't" stuff. i hear that from people, and it matters but i am more interested in understanding these thoughts and feelings and to find out for myself where reality lies between "live at all costs" and "life is not worth living"
Does this make sense?
i'll start and see if people can jump in. If this thread is appropriate i'd like a very good explanation from Bob personally.
i have been fascinated and drawn to stories and thoughts of suicide since i was very young. i was about 4 the first time i tried to be dead, but i was not old enough to make it happen.. i don't remember why i was even thinking about it. But since then it waxes and wanes. Since the BP started it intensified.
i spend a LOT of time contemplating what people say to me when i am suicidal. i am not convinced that life is always the right choice for everyone. i am deliberately excluding assisted suicides due to terminal illness. i am talking about people who are unhappy, miserable or just tired of life.
i am not currently suicidal but i know my life has been very hard emotionally, mentally and now even physically. i am not convinced of the arguements that life can always get better, make changes...etc.
so i am interested in what people think. Blanket statements as to life being worth living need something to back them up. Why? Why is life worth living? For you? What about for other people? IS it always worth living? Are there people who should be allowed to choose to die (again, outside of terminal illness etc)? Is there any situation you can imagine in which it would be ok?
you see, i post anonymously online about my pain during those times. i can't go talk to someone because they would hospitalize me. i have to hide how i feel and i have to be ashamed. i have to face the fact that the entire world just has blinders on when it comes to the pain some people live in.
anyone else?
Posted by DAisym on May 31, 2007, at 21:14:25
In reply to ****suicide discussion thread*****, posted by gazo on May 31, 2007, at 19:11:15
Have you read "Night Falls Fast"? It is a fascinating study of suicide and why people might do it.
I'm "lucky" enough to be able to talk about it when it comes up for me without too much fear of being slapped in a hospital. I agree, it ebbs and flows. Mostly for me, it is about not having the resources to face another hard thing, or to look in the mirror and know I've failed. And lately there is a lot of that.
Why haven't I? My children and a promise. As complicated and as simple as that. Sometimes I still feel it is inevitable, the pain gets overwhelming and unrelenting. Loss of hope and that cruel place of being alone in the crowd. I'm so aware it is self-chosen isolation, but it takes too much energy sometimes to push myself into a less dense experience.
And then the fog lifts, and I go forward. I don't know why and I feel foolish for "crying wolf." I'd give anything to make these thoughts go away and to take this "option" off the table once and for all. I get afraid of myself, for myself. Does that make any sense?
I'm sorry you know this place too.
Posted by gazo on May 31, 2007, at 21:44:35
In reply to Re: ****suicide discussion thread*****, posted by DAisym on May 31, 2007, at 21:14:25
i do know this place, and i was very struck by you're saying how you feel follish for crying wolf.. i get that exact feeling.
i don't think these thoughts and feelings ever can go away for me. i think they have been woven into the fabric that is me now. The BP stitched it in extra well. Which is a big point for me i guess... the BP. i know depressions *generally* lift eventually and in most healthy individuals they will lift. But for Bpers depression can stay around as low grade for years - yes years. Or, like is more my case, i get the vanilla depression off and on and then every so often i get double extra fudge deep depression. And it ***will*** come back... again and again. Meds help lessen it, help stave it off, lengthen the time free of it... but it always comes back eventually.
every time i have an episode a little more of my brain gives into it. Nice thought eh?
so..? is it surprising then, based on this issue alone that one would consider ending one's own life? Imagine a lifetime of knowing the deepest pain was waiting for you. Not to mention of course the side effects of BP, as in loss of work, family, addiction etc etc ect. i had a life insurance policy once... it cost double because BPers kill themselves more than 20% then the regular population.
contrast it with the hypomania... the world becomes the most intense place, colour is brighter and everything seems possible. Reality is a stark and bitter mockery of what hypomania feels like.
Daisy, why do you think about it though? Is it a desire to escape? Is it a solution? Would you think those thoughts if you could change life around you? I mean, if you could make the world be how you'd like it to be, your world, would you still think about it? i would. i know i would.
i will look for that book. Suicidality interests me. i just read "the suicidal mind" which was moderately informative. His info about suicide notes was interesting, only about half left a note but there are very common factors in them. He did a study which compared 700 actual notes to ones test subjects wrote.
when i am at my worst, i feel very much like i am alone in the universe.. everyone and everything else is on the other side of a sheet of glass and there is no way to make contact. i wrote about being on a cliff edge with the wind whipping around me... that is how i feel.
i have spoken here of overdosing and it has always been my foremost plan. But lately i am less drawn to that. i have noticed a growing anger and intensity in me.. a culmination of something. i think now that were i to chose to leave this world i would chose something more befitting that feeling.
i am sorry you know this place, if you wish you did not.. i am sorry for the pain it causes you. But you don't need to feel sorry for me. i know this place so well i don't feel sad to know it really.. i think of it as being interesting to explore the darkness to better understand the light. Life is nothing without death, the two are one. That is why determining one's own death fascinates me
Posted by JoniS on June 1, 2007, at 13:26:36
In reply to ****suicide discussion thread*****, posted by gazo on May 31, 2007, at 19:11:15
Muffled,
I don't know if what I have to contribute will help or not but at least it surely wont hurt.
I have struggled with suicidal thoughts before when I was in pretty deep depression. I never carried it out, but I seriously considered it. Even as my depression has lightened considerably I still sometimes imagine it would be so good for me to run off the road and die in an "accident" Those thoughts occur less seldom now.
What has kept me from carrying it out? I guess first fear of pain. But second, my T explained to me how it impacts my family. My T's brother committed suicide and so my T knows first hand. So once I realized how my kids and my husband would blame themselves and never get over it, I was able to stop the thoughts from progressing.
Another thing that helped me, and maybe this is related to not hurting others, I realized that when I was suicidal, my world was revolving around "ME" When I start to think about other people and want to give or help others, it helps me overcome the suicidal thoughts.
The reason I was thinking of suicide was because I just thought life was too hard for me. I guess it was mostly the emotional and physical pain of depression, which for me is both situational and genetic. I still think life is hard, but I want to persevere. Why? maybe because a higher being created me and he knows better than me why I'm here. His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. For now, that's what I'm trusting in.
I know we are all different, and my experience may be nothing like someone elses. I certainly don't for a minute suggest my solutions work for someone else and I don't look down on anyone who has suicidal thoughts. I can empathize.
hope this post - all the responses are helpful to you and others.
Joni
Posted by JoniS on June 1, 2007, at 13:36:07
In reply to Re: ****suicide discussion thread***** » gazo, posted by JoniS on June 1, 2007, at 13:26:36
So sorry to address you, Gazo as "Muffled" I guess I was just earlier reading Muffled's post and then I also so Muffled's name on the post on the line above you.
Sorry to both of you. I am fairly new to this, and quite clumsy!
Joni
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 2, 2007, at 17:06:06
In reply to Re: ****suicide discussion thread***** » gazo, posted by JoniS on June 1, 2007, at 13:26:36
I don't view suicide as something intrinsically bad or evil.
I think that taking one's own life is the most supreme human right there is.
But for the right reasons only.
psychological reasons usually don't hold water, because when one is thinking about suicide they usually aren't thinking clearly in general.
I think I better stop at this point.
-Ll
Posted by Sigismund on June 4, 2007, at 1:45:50
In reply to Re: ****suicide discussion thread***** » JoniS, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 2, 2007, at 17:06:06
I've thought about suicide in a vague sort of way 3 days out of 4 for the last 45 years, so I am unsurprised that others should think about it.
We need some way of dealing with the mixed feelings we have about existence, and for me thinking about how I might give myself a break is part of the balance.
I can't imagine never thinking about it.
Posted by wishingstar on June 4, 2007, at 12:07:38
In reply to Re: ****suicide discussion thread*****, posted by Sigismund on June 4, 2007, at 1:45:50
I'm actually at a point in my life right now where while there are still lingering suicidal feelings in the back of my mind, they dont bug me constantly and I'm not feeling like I need to act on the feelings. It's the first time I've felt this way in at least a year.
I think one of the problems with suicidal thoughts is that they can become a conditioned response and it keeps the cycle going. The disclaimer is that I only know that this has been the case for me, and I wouldnt claim that its the case for anyone else necessairly... so it's just thoughts. But I think... when we feel desperatly bad, suicide seems the best option.. but once a person has allowed suicide to be a very real option (not just a passing idea), it's hard to get rid of it. It's such a "good" solution - "good" in the sense that it's guarenteed to "fix" (stop) the problem. Once you cross that line and let it be an option the first time, it's so much easier to let it be an option later on. I think that as we start to pull out of the deep despair that we all have felt, the suicidal thoughts keep coming because we're so used to thinking in that way. Conditioned. My mind jumps there much more easily than most peoples might. It's almost automatic. And I really do believe it can play a role in keeping the cycle going. When I cognitively think about how much I want to die, I feel worse. And when I feel worse, I want to die more. But when I start feeling better, my mind still jumps to suicide so easily, and then I'm back to thinking about wanting to die, and......... etc etc etc.
I dont know. If anyone disagrees, I'd be interested to hear that too. It's just something I've thought about.
As for why I never have made any serious attempts... I'm really not sure. I just dont know. There have been some very close moments. I think part of it is that I'm just too stubborn. One of the things that drives my suicidal feelings is the feeling that no matter what I do or how I ask for help, it's not going to work out or people are going to let me down. I always say I'm a slow learner though.. I guess my stubbornness forces me to keep trying. The other thing that has saved me a time or two is my old therapist Laurie. I had a session with her about a year ago where I was very, very depressed, nonfunctional.. barely said a word the entire session.. just sat there and fought tears for an hour while she talked. She said a lot of nice things but the one that really stuck with me was when she said she'd miss me if I died. That session she also said that my pain made her cry and sure enough, I glanced up and she was wiping her eyes. Lots of people have said theyd miss me but that was the first time it really felt genuine. I could see that she really cared and I've held on to that in some bad moments.
Posted by Dory on June 6, 2007, at 13:11:24
In reply to ****suicide discussion thread*****, posted by gazo on May 31, 2007, at 19:11:15
the big things professionals ask are: do you have a plan? and do you feel you will carry it out now? Apparently, if you ask a suicidal person if they are suicidal, they most often say yes.
and i think there needs to be an important distinction here that many people misunderstand. Thoughts of suicide are called suicidal ideation and can be mild, as in infrequent, or severe, as in intrusive. They can be unwanted and distressing. Sometimes the person has no idea why they are happening.
Then there is a point at which a person is actively thinking about suicide in a more consistent and deliberate way. This can still fall under the category of suicidal ideation... *can* but not necessarily. The person is in agony and can only think of ending their life as a way out. They are unable to consider other options and need intervention and counselling or meds to break the cycle.
Beyond those points is the suicidal person. This person has made up their minds and often feel little anxiety or fear. They are often not distraught, and may actually appear happier. They have a detailed plan and formed intent. These people need immediate intervention and possible hospitalization.
There are people in between who are also at serious risk and also require the same level of intervention. These are the people who do have detailed plans and formed intent but they are waivering, they are intensely distressed and are often not in any state of thinking clearly. They are in enormous danger as well but are more reachable as they are seeking relief from whatever pressures they are under and may respond to gentle and careful actions of another.
The question of the plan is often the serious indicator. How detailed is the plan? How feasible?
Safety contracts are useful in most of the lower risk cases. Even for the high risk individual, putting off for one day the intent would make no difference but it might make all the difference. Intense desire to end one's life may persist and grow, but the moment of action is generally brief and can be averted.
Posted by Dory on June 6, 2007, at 13:46:55
In reply to ****suicide discussion thread*****, posted by gazo on May 31, 2007, at 19:11:15
having said all of that factual stuff in the last post, i personally am pursued by suicidal ideation. It used to feel like a panic reaction but now has become a feeling of being a solution. i am not sure how to handle that scenario.
Along with that comes the question of how to help another.. what can one say or do when you feel the same pain? Should you intervene? You should give arguements that you don't whole heartedly believe in?
In "suicidal mind" the author talked quite a lot about suicide notes, and in fact, that is what got him started in studying suicide. He discovered that only roughly half left notes at all. Most only gave brief and sometimes cryptic clues as to why they were taking their own lives.
If you were to write a suicide note and try to say exactly why you were doing this... what would you say? i'm talking about an exercise in examining your own intent. Instead of "good bye jane, i know you will be happier without me...signed john" what if you wrote out *exactly* why you were doing it? WHat if you gave your reasons and how you felt? what if you included all the things which condensed into that exact moment of potential action? i think the result would give an insight into the false hope suicide offers.
Is it false hope? i don't know the answer to that and the troubling thing is that no one does. Regardless of one's individual faith or belief, it is just that, faith. It is not concretely based, it is a idea. No one really knows until you're dead and then you can't tell the rest of us. The fate awaiting you upon your death is really an unknown.
Sometimes i don't care. i am in so much pain i just don't care. What can anyone say then?
the idea of sacrificing oneself is not entirely in the realm of negative action. There is a concept of altruism which means you give your life for a reason, a cause which is generally to save another. ANimals even have this decision process...think of mother birds protecting her young. It happens in other cases within animal situations as well. What is the brain process which makes this happen? ALl of our biology is geared toward survival. How is it that a switch gets tripped which allows us to perform otherwise? Can this switch, which seems designed to protect offspring, be tripped in the case of a suicidal person? The two must be intertwined somehow.
thoughts?
Posted by cubic_me on June 6, 2007, at 17:58:50
In reply to Re: ****suicide discussion thread*****, posted by wishingstar on June 4, 2007, at 12:07:38
I'm finding it hard to find words tonight, it's all so close to home, although I'm safe. But I'll have a go with my thoughts.
I think whether we are talking of loosing someone to suicide, or getting close ourselves, it's such a powerful experience that it's hard (maybe impossible) for those who haven't had it to understand.
I've come across so many who think suicide is selfish. Ofcourse on one level it is, but these people don't understand the pain and despair someone must have to contemplate it. Isn't it selfish to want someone to live?
If someone was in pain from an enduring illness for which there was no effective cure, most people would understand, and even support their decision to end their own life, but are less able to understand the mental suffering of someone who can find no effective treatment for their mental illness. What's more, people in physical pain get help and support from everyone around them, while those with mental pain get ostrasised, everyone backs away and they are left even more isolated.
A very close friend of mine killed herself. She'd gone through multiple treatments, tried her best, taken all the help on offer and still felt in despair. I mourned for her unlike any person I've ever lost, but I understood her decision, and was glad she was free from pain, just like if someone was in physical pain. The only thing I was angry about at the time, was that we didn't go together - we always said if it came to that we would.
>
> I think one of the problems with suicidal thoughts is that they can become a conditioned response and it keeps the cycle going. The disclaimer is that I only know that this has been the case for me, and I wouldnt claim that its the case for anyone else necessairly... so it's just thoughts. But I think... when we feel desperatly bad, suicide seems the best option.. but once a person has allowed suicide to be a very real option (not just a passing idea), it's hard to get rid of it. It's such a "good" solution - "good" in the sense that it's guarenteed to "fix" (stop) the problem. Once you cross that line and let it be an option the first time, it's so much easier to let it be an option later on. I think that as we start to pull out of the deep despair that we all have felt, the suicidal thoughts keep coming because we're so used to thinking in that way. Conditioned. My mind jumps there much more easily than most peoples might. It's almost automatic. And I really do believe it can play a role in keeping the cycle going. When I cognitively think about how much I want to die, I feel worse. And when I feel worse, I want to die more. But when I start feeling better, my mind still jumps to suicide so easily, and then I'm back to thinking about wanting to die, and......... etc etc etc.
>Sigh. I agree. It seems so easy to go there again once you've been in that place once - almost automatic. Sometimes I find it so easy to get into that very dark place I scare myself...really scare myself. When it doesn't scare me, I know I'm not safe.
Posted by cubic_me on June 6, 2007, at 18:00:38
In reply to Re: ****suicide discussion thread*****, posted by DAisym on May 31, 2007, at 21:14:25
> Have you read "Night Falls Fast"? It is a fascinating study of suicide and why people might do it.
>I found this invaluable when I lost someone very close to suicide. I read it from cover to cover several times, having not read a whole book since those children's ones with lots of pictures!
Posted by DAisym on June 9, 2007, at 17:08:28
In reply to Re: ****suicide discussion thread***** » DAisym, posted by cubic_me on June 6, 2007, at 18:00:38
I'm wondering why it helped. When I read it, and reread it, I was looking for a "permission" for these thoughts, though not necessarily permission to try it or complete it. (I find the word itself interesting - it is a noun and a verb and yet people usually put "committed" or "incomplete" in sentences - I digress.)
I agree with you about having compassion for people who are in so much emotional pain that they just need out. Society might label it as weak or selfish, but until they develop pain medication for the brain, I think we should be more humble about presuming to understand another's internal agony. We just can't know the demons that lurk.
The flip side for me is trying to understand why people who try and fail don't try again as soon as they are able. It says a lot about how powerful receiving care can be - almost any kind of care.
This is the end of the thread.
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