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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on February 23, 2007, at 20:23:25
Things are better. Not in my life but with my therapist. Why is that?
We talked this week about how hard it has been for me again to take him with me between sessions and internalize him. When I'm in a session, I can feel him and he is present. But it has been hard to talk and my younger parts have been very sad and quiet. So he asked me what I needed from him...maybe I needed something concrete again? I said I'd think about it. Of course, after the session, I thought of his talisman. It means a lot to me and provides a lot of comfort and soothing. But I felt so immature and silly asking for it. I asked anyway and when he gave it to me he said it was what he'd thought of too. I kind of hemmed and hawed when he gave it to me, "I don't know what it is about this thing..." and he said, "it's magic."
Yes - totally. :)We've also been talking about how suicidal I've been feeling and how hard that is to talk about with him. He wants to know why and I say I can't keep telling him I am suicidal. He said, "you can and you must, if you are. I said you can call if it gets bad and I mean that." I said, "I can't keep doing this. How many chances do I get before you leave in frustration?" He said without hesitation, " 486,000. And you've only used up 31 so you have lots to go." What could I do but laugh? But now I have to keep track!
Near the end of my session yesterday I changed the subject to the weekend. I told him that I was having a harder time being separated, which he knew, because I want to feel him keeping me safe. But when I go to imagine him, I can't. I can't "see" him anywhere. So he told me about his study at home, where he works when he isn't in his office. So now I can imagine him in there working on the weekend, drinking tea and reading. He let me ask questions to fill out the picture -- although now I wish I'd asked a few more. And we talked about the Academy Awards a little and movies a little. It was nice -- kind of easy but I definitely was pushing his boundaries and he was letting me. I can now also know that when I'm watching the awards on Sunday, so is he. So another way to make him real exists for me. And then he asked if I needed to check in with him and gave me his basic schedule for the weekend.
I felt -- what? This huge pile of tears came up, and leaving was so hard. But it felt OK too. We agreed that I would just leave him messages during the weekend and let him know how I was doing and I would ask him to call me back if I needed him to. Otherwise we would just remain virtually connected. I liked that. :) Kind of like Babble.
So my question -- is it him or me? Am I letting him in again, to comfort and support and help contain things? Or is he being more open to comforting and supporting? It is hard for me to think that this has been all me...but I really don't want it to change back and I only have control over me. Does this make any sense?
Posted by mair on February 23, 2007, at 22:26:28
In reply to Is it him or me?, posted by Daisym on February 23, 2007, at 20:23:25
Daisy - I've wondered about this same sort of question. I do find that sometimes I can take in so much more of what my T is offering, whether it be wisdom, insight, or emotional support - particularly emotional support. She seems different to me during sessions when we really connect, but it's more believable to me that I'm responding differently.
But maybe it's partly the Ts too, in this respect. Maybe Ts are a little more offering when they can see a glimmer of acceptance. It's not that your T is less caring at other times; but it may be that he senses a particular need and receptiveness and then capitalizes on it.
Also, I don't think you should look at your questions as "pushing the boundaries." It may again just be that your T sees this as a comfortable way of keeping those emotional ties strong. My T has been quite revealing at times, and I've suspected that sometimes she's done this to strengthen my sense of connection. I'm sure she wouldn't be as open if she thought I'd misuse the information, of if she was otherwise uncomfortable with it. I'm sure your T feels the same way.
I'm sorry you're having such a rough time. I also can well identify with your fears that he's going to recoil from having such a needy patient. But seriously, I've never thought your T was sending you those sorts of signals at all. And I know that I'm constantly projecting my own self-disgust onto my T. It makes sense after all - if you so devalue yourself, how can you expect someone else to really value you? I'm certain his view is very different; he's wishing in every possible way that you will allow him to take care of you until you are in a better place for taking care of yourself.
I think it's wonderful, and actually quite touching that your T gave you some visual images to help you feel that sense of connection and support over the weekend. ...And until you mentioned it, I really had not been paying enough attention to realize that the Academy Awards are coming up. Thank you for the reminder. (-;
mair
Posted by Fallsfall on February 23, 2007, at 23:12:12
In reply to Is it him or me?, posted by Daisym on February 23, 2007, at 20:23:25
It's both of you. You become more open and ask for more, and he gives it to you.
You can't make him give it to you, that is up to him. But he CAN"T give it to you if you won't allow it. So, you do your part and then hope and trust that he'll do his part (and I bet that he will).
Posted by widget on February 24, 2007, at 3:03:30
In reply to Is it him or me?, posted by Daisym on February 23, 2007, at 20:23:25
oh, Daisy, I really understand your question and feelings. Your therapist sounds like he is genuinely trying to help you and support you with what you need from him. I, too, need and want a lot from my therapist. I was in a similar position recently wondering if my therapist's comments and caring actions had more meaning behind them. I was just convinced he found me sexually attractive. Not that he would act on this nor did I want him to, just the validation that I am desirable. After many attempts during many sessions to ascertain the answer, it was finally addressed this Thursday. No, he has not thought of me in a sexual way. This knowledge is so painful to me. I have noticed a pattern with me when I hear something like this, something hurtful toward me. I act detatched, nonchalant, nothing wrong, take it in stride. "Big girls don't cry." Then, a few hours later, I am hit big time with incredible anguish. Anyway, as to your dilemna, the only one who knows what his behavior means is him. As awkward as it may be, perhaps you could talk to him about it? I know that sounds hard. I, also, know you may fear losing this sense of caring you feel from him by questioning it. But, for me, at least I don't have to obsess anymore about what my therapist REALLY thinks/feels for me. Unfortunately, I know. I just wanted him to give me some validation which is what he wants me to learn to give to myself. I might as well go to the moon this weekend. Gee, if I could do that, I wouldn't be in therapy! But, this knowledge is a double-edged sword. So, only ask when you feel safe. He sounds like he would be supportive no matter what he was telling you. You are in my mind and heart; I understand. Enjoy the Oscars! Widget
Posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 19:47:38
In reply to Re: Is it him or me? » Daisym, posted by mair on February 23, 2007, at 22:26:28
You are welcome for the reminder. I'll think of you watching!
I think you are right - it isn't all me. But when I can verbalize what I need, it is easier for him to give it to me. And easier for him to also make the leap to what I need that I'm not able to say.
I agree that he doesn't send out signals that he is sick of me. I project it all over him - until sometimes he will say, "I'm not your mother -- or your dad!" Most of the time he just reminds me that he keeps showing up and so far we've managed to get through a lot of hard stuff. I'm just so sick of having to get through it, you know?
I'm glad you didn't think the visual images were silly. (I'm thinking lots of people did, so didn't reply, which is fine.) It has helped to be able to "see" him. More than that, the fact that he acknowledged how important it is for me to "feel" him right now and helped me with it, helps me believe that it really is Ok with him that I'm this attached to him. I keep describing myself as a barnacle. He says it is a step up from the albastross I used to call myself.
I've been keeping you and your therapist in my prayers. Scary stuff. My heart goes out to you.
Posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 19:54:23
In reply to Re: Is it him or me?, posted by Fallsfall on February 23, 2007, at 23:12:12
You make it sound so easy and clear, Falls. I guess it is, in one way. I can see how holding back gets totally in the way. But sometimes it is amazingly hard to say what I'm thinking or feeling. I know you struggle sometimes with what to say, but it seems like you have a great well of courage in which to dip. Once you figure it out, you say it!
Sometimes I get all caught up in the need to "work" in therapy instead of going for comfort and support. He'll tell me that allowing support is so much of my work to do. Sheesh, I can't win! But right now there is too much out of my control to not be looking for his support. So I'm glad you are confident he'll give it.
Thank you for your's too.
Posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 20:08:05
In reply to To Daisym: Re: Is it him or me?, posted by widget on February 24, 2007, at 3:03:30
I'm sorry you are going through a rough time in your own therapy. It hurts to get rejected and I think we've all felt that at one time or another.
I think I'm lucky in that my therapist makes it pretty easy to come back in and ask him about anything that has come up for me. He likes to say, "anything left over from yesterday?" Or he'll say, "I was thinking about how I phrased X and wondered if you had any thoughts about it too?" So I don't have to always be the one who brings stuff up again.
I've had fleeting sexual feelings for my therapist and I feel all different kinds of love for him. He handles those discussions with sensitivity and great respect. I'd bet money that if I asked him if he ever had sexual feelings for me, he wouldn't answer the question. He'd want to know why I was asking, and what I imagined. He'd wonder how it would effect me if he said yes, or if he said no. And if I pressed, he'd probably say that this was one of those questions that should go unanswered because neither answer would be beneficial. And this was my therapy, about me. So it would be more beneficial to talk about my sexual feelings for him and what they meant. Sometimes I hate that, but the few times it has happened, he's been right. If he'd answered the question, I'd have been hurt.
And you know, I think a lot of this comes down to pride for me. When I feel young, my pride goes out the window. I'll ask for the talisman, or tell him I want to be special. The adult part of me is mortified that I feel this and worse - I'm saying it! But it helps with the anguish that the younger parts carry and in the end, I do so much better when I let myself be connected and receive his support.
Therapy is hard, isn't it? I hope you had a peaceful weekend, inspite of everything that happened last week. It will get better.
Posted by sunnydays on February 25, 2007, at 20:59:44
In reply to Re: Is it him or me? » mair, posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 19:47:38
I don't think the images are silly at all, Daisy. I just didn't know what to say to your post. I'm struggling so much with missing my therapist right now that I can't give any advice about it without feeling very hypocritical. I recently started going twice a week, so maybe that will help with staying connected. I just miss him so much. And when he asked me last session if I thought I liked him too much because he couldn't be my father, I had such a strong reaction. That was exactly it. Uggh. Anyway, I'm thinking of you.
sunnydays
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2007, at 21:57:20
In reply to Is it him or me?, posted by Daisym on February 23, 2007, at 20:23:25
I thought it was a lovely image, Daisy. And IMO, it's almost always entirely mutual when it really works.
My not answering has more to do with my being braindfried from work, and maybe with the fact that I think I'm pushing my therapist away.
Mostly the brainfried, I think.
Posted by littleone on February 25, 2007, at 23:24:30
In reply to Re: Is it him or me? » mair, posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 19:47:38
> I'm glad you didn't think the visual images were silly. (I'm thinking lots of people did, so didn't reply, which is fine.)
I didn't think for an instant that they were silly. Thought they were a brilliant idea. I didn't reply because I've had to pull back into my shell and hide. Don't have words for people.
Posted by littleone on February 25, 2007, at 23:27:11
In reply to Re: Is it him or me?, posted by sunnydays on February 25, 2007, at 20:59:44
> I recently started going twice a week, so maybe that will help with staying connected.
Once a week to twice a week sounds like nothing much, but makes such a big change. I hope it gives you what you need.
> I just miss him so much. And when he asked me last session if I thought I liked him too much because he couldn't be my father, I had such a strong reaction. That was exactly it. Uggh.
I'm glad you've found some insight. Uggh and good. Uggh and good.
Posted by widget on February 26, 2007, at 7:27:35
In reply to Re: To Daisym: Re: Is it him or me? » widget, posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 20:08:05
Thanks, Daisy. I am going through a hard time now. What you said about your therapist probably not answering a question about your sexual attractiveness except with a question was wise,indeed. In my reading, that is often what therapists do say to their analysands. But, I simply could not leave it alone. I've read voraciously on the subject of transference/counter-transference, the therapeutic relationship, how women feel about their therapist, etc. In preperation for my question to him on Thursday, I did my homework, photocopied papers that assume a countertransference will develop in the therapist in reaction to a strong erotic transference toward the therapist by the client. Some said it would be overwhelming, inducing all kinds of feelings on analyst's part. And, that's what I needed to know. Also, I've read on therapist self-disclosure, when it is appropriate, when it could help and that is usually when the client needs to hear something from the therapist in order to move on. This research was part of my arsenal giving me the moxy to confront him, gently, on such a touchy and personal subject. I can only say that my need to know was far greater than my imagined rejection feelings if the answer was no, I don't see you sexually. Anyway, I found out I was wrong, the truth hurt more that I could have ever imagined. I thought of not seeing him any more, truly felt (at the time) that nothing he could say in therapy would reach me because I couldn't trust him now, etc. I told myself to wait and see how I felt later.
Why do I feel I can't trust him now? Its complicated as usual. It's because he has been so warm, kind, caring, sensitive, unbelievably understanding, accepting no matter what, that I could only imagine this was love. If not love, then at least he might think of me as sexually attractive and that would be something to hold onto, not to act on. And, it was SO important to me. And, I know that is what I need to be working on in therapy. But, the child in me says, Gee, would that have been such a big deal for him to have had some automatic sexual reaction to me, one that occurred spontaneously, was noted but not dwelled upon before he moved on. It would have been a scrap I could carry like a talisman.It would have meant everything.
One last point. He said "I don't go there", meaning allowing himself to view a patient as anything but a patient. This greatly confuses me. Isn't this repression of emotion? Isn't that what we are in therapy to deal with and resolve? But, on a more human level, isn't it just natural to appreciate the sexuality of another person rather than negate it as if it weren't there? Don't we all, ALL, have such reactions to others, people we see on the street or ocassionally talk to, or even know better? And, that does not mean we act upon these feelings. I thought that was what made me human.
And, if he can deal with me in everyway, why can he not deal with my sexuality which is an integral part of me? I am not sexless. I am a woman, does anyone notice? Wow, this is long one. I hope someone can respond to me a I AM CONFUSED!
Lost, Widget
Posted by muffled on February 26, 2007, at 11:43:27
In reply to Re: To Daisym: Re: Is it him or me?, posted by widget on February 26, 2007, at 7:27:35
Posted by JoniS on February 26, 2007, at 13:10:33
In reply to Is it him or me?, posted by Daisym on February 23, 2007, at 20:23:25
Daisym
What you said makes total sense to me. The visuals bring comfort. Sounds like your T is very good. I'm glad that you have that.
I wish for better days for you ahead. I know you don't know me, I'm new, but can I give you a hug anyway? (((Daisym)))
I know what it's like to be feeling suicidal. Look at how many of us can relate to you.I can really identify with what you wrote and what Widget wrote. I have been wanting to know that my T loves me and even that sometime he has felt attraction for me. I sit here and cry when I read your posts because I feel so much for my T. I miss him terribly.
Sometimes counseling seems cruel. I agree with how widget feels, couldnt he just drop a crumb? Of course our T wont act on the feelings, but couldn't he share some honestly sometimes! I believe if they are human, they have probably had some feelings of love and attraction for us over the course of therapy.
Joni
Posted by Raindancer on February 26, 2007, at 17:36:10
In reply to Re: To Daisym: Re: Is it him or me? » widget, posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 20:08:05
Daisy, I loved the visual images and they are very personal and helpful. I try to think of my T at weekends and holidays and it really helps if he gives some idea of what he will be doing. He rarely does, but when he does I feel so warm and included. I too feel all kinds of love for my T at different times. He answers this by saying that the therapeutic relationship is a very special one and closer than some in everyday life.
I am sorry you're having a rough time. You've been so kind and helpful towards me in the past and I want you to know how much I appreciate it and what a difference you make to us in Babble as I know you do to those who share your daily life. My thoughts are very much with you. Take care of yourself. ((((Daisy)))
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