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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by annierose on October 30, 2006, at 17:22:06
I have been under a great deal of stress lately with my job and my marriage. So for the past 3 months, these two issues have been the topic "du jour" during my sessions. And it's boring. And I'm tired of talking about them. Nothing is going to change until after Christmas - because that is my goal - maintain my sanity and status quo until January 2, 2007. Then my job stress will be just about over and I'll be able to deal with my marriage more effectively.
I cancelled my session with my therapist for tomorrow. I have nothing more to say to her. I'm a broken record that won't stop skipping. So I threw away the record player, canceled my session and felt relieved. One less session to sit in silence, or talk about everything but the elephant because I have beated the elephant to death.
Lo and behold, my T called me at work. I didn't ask her to call me back. Can't I come in on a different day? she wondered. (Keep in mind I do see her THREE times a week, I saw her today in fact) So what's the big deal? Why was I guilted into saying "yes" to Thursday? Guilt, guilt, guilty. I just have nothing more to say.
Our therapy conversations remind me of having dinner with your spouse after a long day at work. Both are eating dinner at the same table, both are present, but the lack of conversation is uncomfortable, and the words spoken are forced, unnatural.
I'll cancel an appointment next week. Maybe I'll be strong enough not to reschedule.
Posted by madeline on October 31, 2006, at 6:52:25
In reply to Stress, therapy and guilt, posted by annierose on October 30, 2006, at 17:22:06
I'm sorry you are under so much stress right now. Waiting until January for relief is a long time to hold on. You sounded very discouraged to me.
Personally, I think it is wonderful that your T called to see if you wanted to reschedule. It sounds to me as though she doesn't share your view that you sound like a broken record. Perhaps she feels that there is progress to be made prior to january.
Maybe during the next visit you could talk about how you are potentially viewing therapy differently and why she thought it was important that you come in.
Another thought I had was that maybe you don't need to go in three days a week anymore. It might be time to drop back to fewer visits.
Just some of my ideas. I hope you feel better.
Maddie
Posted by bent on October 31, 2006, at 6:56:38
In reply to Stress, therapy and guilt, posted by annierose on October 30, 2006, at 17:22:06
Hi. I am a believer in therapy breaks, but I also think they are sneaky too. Most of the time my desire to get a way from therapy a little isnt about wanting a break at all. Its actually many other things that I am avoiding.
I am not saying dont reduce your sessions or anything but do you think you could read this post to your t? Talk about it first? I just feel like your post is trying to say something about your relationship with your T and I cant quite figure it out. You mention forced words, feeling uncomfortable and guilty. Are you angry at your T? Other than her calling you back when you really didnt need her to?
If you talk about all this and still feel like you have nothing more to say (right now or even longer) then I say drop back sessions to what you feel most comfortable with. I guess I am inserting my own fears here because I feel I have done this in the past but for the wrong reasons and it only made therapy harder. You may feel totally different though. Just a thought.
Posted by Daisym on October 31, 2006, at 10:19:06
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » annierose, posted by bent on October 31, 2006, at 6:56:38
Oh Annie, I'm sorry you canceled. I think you need her right now. But I completely understand the broken record feeling and the long stretches of silence. I planned all weekend to ask my therapist for a break. Here is what I wrote to him:
"But lately it feels like you just keep confirming over and over again that therapy is a fantasy world and you will never be as available to me as I want you to be. I'm just a client, and that is appropriate. But it feels so hurtful right now. Taking a break might give me some space from the constant assault of the truth. ... I actually believe that I just am not equipped right now to deal with any more loss. I'd rather miss you because I'm not seeing you than miss you this way. "
I ended up not reading any of the letter to him yesterday but I did try to talk about it. Through lots of tears I finally told him that I want him to care about me and save me from the pain of my life. He told me he does care about me, but that he doesn't know what saving me means. He talked about helping me save myself and helping me grieve. And even though I left in tears, a few hours later I felt better.
This is my long winded way of saying that talking about not being able to talk and how disconnected you feel is probably more likely to help than a break will. I know how much stress you are under. I think you need her. But I know that need can be painful too. Not much help, am I?
I get it. I'm here. ((((AnnieRose)))
Posted by Dinah on October 31, 2006, at 12:28:25
In reply to Stress, therapy and guilt, posted by annierose on October 30, 2006, at 17:22:06
I've been thinking a lot about your post, because it really resonates with where I am in therapy right now. And I'll probably be all over the place because I've thought a lot about it, and have a lot of thoughts about it. And I'll probably project a bit, so please forgive that and take anything that happens to be useful and leave the rest.
First of all, I understand the guilt and pressure to come in. When my therapist cancelled the Friday before last and wanted (almost pressured me) to reschedule I refused for a combination of two reasons. One is that I hadn't been finding therapy all that helpful, and the second was that I was *really* busy at work and thought it would be more therapuetic to spend the time getting work done. I didn't think much about it, but he seemed irritated about it the next time I saw him. We didn't really talk about why, but since his practice is pretty busy right now I'm assuming it's because I didn't mention the work reason and he thought I was angry with him and trying to punish him. I can see that with a therapist who has set time periods (which mine doesn't) the pressure would be greater, since she bases a steady income on the time slots. But that doesn't mean that you can't cancel if you need to without feeling pressure to reschedule at a time that may be less than ideal.
Also, I fully agree with the notion that when you start thinking "This is nice, but there are things I'd rather do with my time and money." it's probably time to cut back because you just don't need as much any more.
But... And I might be projecting here... I feel an undercurrent of something other than that in your post. An undercurrent of frustration or irritation that's not unlike what I've felt lately.
I thought about your sentence "Our therapy conversations remind me of having dinner with your spouse after a long day at work. Both are eating dinner at the same table, both are present, but the lack of conversation is uncomfortable, and the words spoken are forced, unnatural." And I thought that that is probably a couple with other problems than mere boredom. Because the same couple at another point in their marriage might be eating dinner together, comfortable and easy with each other and glad of a place to feel safe and companionable after a stressful day.
And I thought about what the difference might be.
I thought about one of my favorite sayings derived from Alan Alda's "The Four Seasons". Marriage is like a wave. There are crests and troughs. And right now we're in a trough (or crest as the case may be.
And I thought about my recent sessions. I was feeling supremely depressed to the point of strong suicidal ideation. It would seem to be the time when therapy would be helpful. And yet I was bored in an irritable way. Because I wasn't getting what I was needing from him. It wasn't anything overt enough that I could complain. He wasn't doing anything wrong. He just wasn't doing the right thing for me at the time. And finally last session I managed to grasp what was going on. I would whine about something, and he would try to say something to fix it. And he'd get a bit frustrated because I wasn't getting fixed, and he'd make small impatient fidgety gestures, and he'd offer less and less helpful suggestions as he stretched for answers. In bits and pieces, until he finally got it, I told him that I needed my therapy mom, that I needed support, and finally that I needed him to stop trying to fix things, d*mmit. He eventually got it, and let me feel rotten while just validating that I felt rotten. And that I might feel rotten, but that I wouldn't always. And he stopped fidgeting and started radiating acceptance. And bingo. That's what I needed, and it was helpful and I felt better. I needed to feel rotten and fully experience feeling rotten without having to cover it up, or search for answers, or apologize for boring him. And I felt like I was boring him, and I felt like I always talked about the same thing over and over for the eleven years I've seen him. He laughed at that, and told me that I was not boring him, and that I certainly didn't talk about the same thing for the eleven years I've seen him, whatever it felt like at this moment.
This session was fabulous. Nothing really had changed. But it felt like that good marriage with companionable silences and lazy comments that turned out to be surprisingly therapeutic. Instead of offering suggestions on how to make work better now, he asked what I was passionate about in college and what I would have liked to do. We talked about Babble posts and other people's issues that turned out to have a bearing on mine, and what I'd told other people, that was useful to me. The session actually went a bit long, because we were enjoying what could have been a boring and frustrating session.
We talked about this post. And if it is helpful to you, he thought in terms of the education model and growth and plateaus, and that clients tended to get frustrated and bored at plateaus. It didn't resonate with me, but if it does with you, there it is.
But for me, I think I'd wonder what has you in a trough. And what really subtle thing she's doing to annoy you, or she's not doing that you need. And why you're feeling that the elephants in the room shouldn't be discussed. Is it really that they're boring or you're bored hearing yourself talk about them? That sometimes happens to me and I dismiss them with a laugh, but get back to them indirectly. Or is it that somewhere in your mind, you don't want to bring them up because her response isn't helpful and it's annoying you and the idea of bringing them up has you feeling an aversive movement away from her.
Just some random thoughts that likely have more to do with me than you. But if it helps any, your post helped our session today quite a bit by helping me realize what's been wrong lately.
Posted by annierose on October 31, 2006, at 14:35:35
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » annierose, posted by madeline on October 31, 2006, at 6:52:25
>>> Waiting until January for relief is a long time to hold on. You sounded very discouraged to me.<<<
You are right. It is too long. The bubble burst last night. I told my husband that I want a divorce. And of course, I canceled my therapy appointment for today. But I am okay. I feel relieved. My "secret" is out.
Posted by annierose on October 31, 2006, at 14:40:28
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » annierose, posted by bent on October 31, 2006, at 6:56:38
I don't feel anger as much as feel misunderstood, or maybe, underestimated. I don't think she understands that I really do want to end my marriage. And although I am filled with conflict, I need her help to sort this out.
My t called me again today. She said to me 2 or 3 times, "Let me help you with this," and "We will work this out together, you will be okay. Let me help you." Then I replied, "But I can't afford your help anymore." (My insurance ran out last month for its lifetime).
Thank you for your thoughts and kind words (to Maddy too).
Posted by All Done on October 31, 2006, at 15:03:37
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » bent, posted by annierose on October 31, 2006, at 14:40:28
Oh, annierose. I'm so sorry you're going through such a difficult time. I'm glad you were able to make the decision that's right for you, but I know how extremely hard it can be.
And what a terrible time for your insurance to run out. Can you work something out with your T, so you can continue to see her regularly? I think it's important for you to keep as many support systems intact as you can.
Don't forget to lean on us when you need to. We're here for you.
(((((annierose)))))
Take care and lots of hugs,
Laurie
Posted by madeline on October 31, 2006, at 15:26:00
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » madeline, posted by annierose on October 31, 2006, at 14:35:35
Stay close to us annierose during this time. I am so sorry that your relationship with your husband has reached this point.
You are very much in my mind.
Be good to yourself, stay the course that you think is right.
Love
Maddie
Posted by annierose on October 31, 2006, at 20:07:04
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt, posted by Daisym on October 31, 2006, at 10:19:06
It's interesting how the human mind works. You miss him but you haven't lost him, he's still your T. But I know you mean, the longing, lingering need inside of us seems like it can never get filled up. I think it can and will over time. More and more when I'm with her, I realize that she is just another human being going through various days and degrees of happiness and misery. She just chooses to help others as her career choice. And if I was her friend, I wouldn't feel this way towards her. What I'm trying to say (but can't quite find the right set of words) it's our t's job of undivided attention and active listening that makes them so appealing to our wounded souls.
I think when you (or I for the matter) asked your T to save you from the misery of your life, you are asking him to protect you from it and heal the open wounds from the past --- just as a "good parent" would do naturally.
I know you get it and I thank you for that. When she called me today, she seemed genuine in her desire to help me. (Like that should surprise me).
However, I have decided to cut back to twice a week. Not because I have run out of things to say, but I need to start living my life as a single mother, even though this process may take a while. In other words, I need to save my money. I'm trying hard not to think too hard about this decision, I just need to accept it as a fact of my life.
Thank you.
Posted by annierose on October 31, 2006, at 20:23:40
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » annierose, posted by Dinah on October 31, 2006, at 12:28:25
Your "ramblings" were very helpful. I had to read and re-read your thoughts several times. And I'm most happy that you left therapy feeling better, because at the end of the day, that feeling is precious.
>>>And what really subtle thing she's doing to annoy you, or she's not doing that you need. <<<
Hmmm. I think this is part of the frustration that I'm feeling. And I have told her this. I hear in her questions, and her responses a subtle voice, "Stay with your husband. He loves you." And what she doesn't seem to hear is the shouting of my voice, "But I don't love him anymore." It's like she doen't believe me and I need to defend myself. And when we have these discussions, she is gentle and kind and points out that she is supportive of me regardless. But reminds me what a major decision this is and the ripple effect for my children.
Lightbulb moment: maybe I had to cancel my session today so I could go forward in telling my husband my wish for a divorce.
I called my parents to let them know. They were supportive in their own kind of way. My mom cautions me as well to move slowly. It's hard to make this decision when both parties are under so much stress at work. That is true.
When I talk about not loving him anymore, my T will say, "Yes, I hear that you stopped loving him. But it's hard to know how you will feel once you receive a heartfelt apology and see him making the internal changes he needs to make." How long do I wait? How much time do I give him? Haven't I waited long enough? Don't I deserve a second chance at happiness?
I do get what you T suggested for me as well. I think a bit of that is true too. There is also a underlying sense of not to go too deep right now, that there is enough on my plate and just keep it simple.
I keep repeating to myself (and I almost half believe it): I will be okay, I am okay, I will be okay, I am okay ...
and so it goes.
Thank you so much. Your kindess touches my heart.
Posted by annierose on October 31, 2006, at 20:31:38
In reply to Re: (((((((annierose)))))))), posted by All Done on October 31, 2006, at 15:03:37
Thank you for your kindness. I am blessed to have babble as such a constant source of unending support.
I know my t will not offer me a sliding scale. And maybe the other posters are right, it may be time to cut back when there is so little to say.
I feel sad to lose my Monday morning time slot. I was her first appointment of the week, a position that I came to love. But I do have Tuesdays off at my job, so it just makes sense to keep that appointment even though the time of day sucks (to be exact).
Did your little guy go trick and treating??? We had a busy night of critters and goblins at our house --- close to 200 kids --- ran out of candy. Our house got a ton of attention. My little boy and husband had strobe lights going, spooky music and all sorts of freights hanging off the front porch.
Thanks again, Annie
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2006, at 9:20:42
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » Dinah, posted by annierose on October 31, 2006, at 20:23:40
You have a ton of reasons to back away from your therapist it would seem. Not only because she was out of tune with your feelings on your marriage, so that you probably didn't feel it was helpful to discuss it with her, but because you were probably mentally preparing to back off in the frequency of your sessions. Not to mention helping yourself say what you needed to say to your husband.
It sounds as if, in some important ways, you're trying to take care of yourself emotionally. And I don't think you were off base in doing it.
I'm guessing that now you've made your decision, she'll stop tugging in the opposite direction. And I'm enormously glad that you're not going to stop seeing her entirely, because you'll need support at this point. You know you can count on us, but IRL support is different and important.
(((Annierose)))
Not to shift gears abruptly, but are you taking care of all the practical considerations as well as the emotional ones? A good attorney is as wise an investment as a good therapist in helping prepare you to be in the best possible place to be a single mom.
Posted by annierose on November 2, 2006, at 16:12:11
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » annierose, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2006, at 9:20:42
Hi Dinah -
My life is on a teeter-totter right now, or so it seems. I find myself tearing up now and then with no provocation. And another part of me in still in disbelief that this is really happening to me.
My husband is an attorney so getting a good one will be extremely important. I called my best friend (who is also an attorney) for a referral a month ago. I need to see her soon. I feel like the appointment will open a huge can of worms for me and I'm trying to just get through my job move and the holidays right now.
"How can I help you right now?" is what my t asked me today. I paused and replied, "I feel largely unsupported when I hear all the things you would like me to say or do to save my marriage --- for instance, 'you need to have an open and honest conversation with your husband and use i statements' --- wouldn't that be nice if he would talk with me?"
My daughter's t called me this afternoon. She was extremely supportive and understanding.
This is the last week I'll see my t three times a week. A part of me is mourning this support and connection as well, even though I'll still be seeing her. But maybe it's for the best.
Asking for help from my parents was the lowest point in my recent life --- it feels like accepting help from the devil.
That's where I'm at today.
Thank you for your caring thoughts and concerns.
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2006, at 20:32:13
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 2, 2006, at 16:12:11
((((Annierose))))
I really admire you for how you're overcoming your discomfort to ask people for what you need.
But I know that it doesn't *feel* good. Even with our therapists it doesn't feel good (I guess partly because we want them to just know).
How are your kids taking everything? Is there going to be any immediate changes in your living situation?
It's rotten timing that your insurance ran out at the same time, and I think the change from three times a week to two is something that you should allow yourself some grieving over. But I know your relationship is strong after all this time, and you'll be able to maintain your connection at twice a week.
Posted by annierose on November 2, 2006, at 21:23:25
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » annierose, posted by Dinah on November 2, 2006, at 20:32:13
I called my daughter's therapist to let her know what was going on and for advice w/telling the kids. I did let her know that we are still living in the same house and I don't see that changing until after the holidays (but the jury is out on that too).
Unlike my t, she has met my husband several times. Although she is sadden by my news, she was extremely supportive. She said, "I have seen how destructive your husband's anger can be. I know him to be a loving father, but he needs to learn how to handle his stress and frustration."
Has your therapist ever asked you, "How can I help you?" I got to say, I was a little taken aback. Isn't she supposed to know.....
Getting back to my daughter, she doesn't "know" but she knows. Tonight she had a total meltdown over nothing --- part hormones kicking in, part absoring the atmosphere in this house. Sad. Very sad.
Posted by Daisym on November 2, 2006, at 22:33:51
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 2, 2006, at 21:23:25
(((AnnieRose))))
I wish things were easier. I'm glad you can talk to your daughter's therapist about all of this as well as your own. I needed to do that too, trying to do it "right." But it came down to there was no right or wrong, I just had to love them as much as I could. And though mine are older, being honest that I was hurting was reassuring. My son's therapist said, "the biggest problem was that what was being said was not what was being done. And he could see that." So I've had to work very hard to make sure what he is picking up matchs what I am saying. I don't say, "I'm fine" if I'm not.
And I know you didn't ask me, but my therapist HAS asked, "how can I hep you?" more than a few times. I think he wants me to ask for what I need, but more than that, he really, really wants to help but doesn't want to presume he knows best. Often he has ideas but he wants to hear mine too. I'm even allowed to ask for things I know I can't have -- like hiding under his desk for the weekend. He never tells me no directly, he usually gently jokes back, saying, "you can't see much from under there" or something like that, but the exchange usually gives me the courage to ask for something that might actually help.
I hope you did think of something that would help you. I think you are being amazingly strong. Just be careful not to hide yourself away too much. I know how tempting that is.
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2006, at 23:20:05
In reply to Re: Stress, therapy and guilt » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 2, 2006, at 21:23:25
Mine does ask how he can help me. It usually means either that I've been critical of him, but I think he also said it after my father died. I think big life events need that sort of question, because the answer can vary so much - even day to day.
I'm going to do something I rarely allow myself to do. And that's agree with your daughter's therapist. It explains a lot if your therapist doesn't know your husband as well. Perhaps she hasn't been able to truly see him through you.
(Ummm.. Not that I don't normally allow myself to agree with therapists. But I don't usually allow myself to express an opinion on spouses.)
Kids are little barometers, aren't they?
This is the end of the thread.
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