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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on July 11, 2006, at 19:40:21
Sometimes I feel like my questions here are so silly and small compared to everyone elses.. I hope that isnt the case.
I need someones honest opinion on this. Is it reasonable for me to expect a return phone call in 24 hours from my T (if I ask her specifically to call me back)? Or is 24 hours really not long enough? And I'm talking about weekdays only.
I called my home T yesterday at 4pm. I asked her a specific question and told her I was upset and needed an answer from her. In the message, I told her she could reach me at these certain times, or leave a message at these other times.. either was fine. It's now 8:30pm the next day, and I never heard back. I dont get it. I feel very abandoned by her. This is by far not the first time this has happened in the last few months. But am I being unfair or unreasonable in expecting a call by now? It FEELS to me like I'm being completely reasonable.. but I could be wrong. I know she works in her office on Tuesdays, and she's only part-time, so there's no way her schedule was too packed to call...
About a year ago (before I took a several month break from therapy), I was feeling very bad and unsafe one specific week and she actually gave me her cell phone number in case I needed her urgently (since she obviously doesnt check office messages every 5 minutes). I thought it was very nice of her and I felt very supported. Now, a year or so later, I can say I'm feeling suicidal or unsafe (as I am most of the time these days) and she doesnt even call me back until 2 days later. I'm wondering if there is some negative countertransference going on, or something in her personal life that is really affecting her work. Enough theorizing though.. am I being unreasonable or expecting too much?
Posted by ElaineM on July 11, 2006, at 21:02:01
In reply to am I expecting too much?, posted by wishingstar on July 11, 2006, at 19:40:21
Hi Wishingstar: I think everyone feels like their own stuff is stupid. I do. But I always find everyone else so interesting. Plus, I don't think that anything that upsets you so much could be considered small, no matter what it is.
I used to think that 24 hours was reasonable. But then recently my T didn't return my call for over a day. I started driving myself crazy with what that meant. I sometimes forget that T's are regular people too, and that something could've been going on. Has she said anything to you before about returning calls? If she's told you a time line before, (and there's no personal emergency on her end this time) then I would think that you deserve your call returned. (to be fair, I'm not familiar with you and your T's history of calls) Have you guys been working on seeing what it would be like for you if she didn't return your calls within the usual amount of time? I don't know. Is there any other reasons why she may not have reached you yet? Does she ever take two days off in a row, during the summer? Could she have not got your message yet... or just got it this afternoon?
Sorry, I'm rambling here. Just trying to think it out
EL : )
Posted by Daisym on July 12, 2006, at 1:06:14
In reply to Re: am I expecting too much?, posted by ElaineM on July 11, 2006, at 21:02:01
You aren't going to like what I'm going to say...
You need to talk to her about this. I don't think your expectations are unreasonable but that would be based on my experience with my therapist. We've talked (and talked and talked) about phone calls because I don't want to bother him. But I do better when I touch base sooner than later. I know when he usually last checks his answering machine for the night and I have the cell number for emergencies. So between 10pm and 8am I'm not going to get a call back unless I call the cell. But I only know this because I asked and we talked about it.
I also think you need to specifically bring up not feeling heard about being suicidal. This is a serious thing. Perhaps you aren't being as clear as you think you are. Or perhaps she trust you not to hurt yourself, based on prior experience with you. But still...I'm thinking you might need together to develop a phrase that lets her know you truly are in trouble.
When do you see her again? I hope you are safe tonight and she calls back again soon.
OH, and you know what? If I hadn't heard from my therapist by noon of the next day, I'd call again and assume he hadn't received the message. The two times this has happened to me, he didn't get the message.
Hang in there,
Daisy
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2006, at 7:33:14
In reply to am I expecting too much?, posted by wishingstar on July 11, 2006, at 19:40:21
If I recall, she's done this more than once. It might be worthwhile asking her her phone policies, offer to pay for phone consultations if you haven't already, and explain how you feel when a call isn't returned.
I've done that with my therapist many times. His general policy is to return the call the same day. He tells me when he won't be able to return it until very late, even if he has no expectation that I'll call. But it took him a while of my explaining what it feels like to sit by the phone waiting for that call, and reading other people's posts to him about sitting by the phone waiting for their therapists to call, for him to grasp what the import is to some clients.
He still doesn't call back all the time. And he's told me that if he doesn't, to call him and remind him. Usually if I call and leave a brusque message like "Dinah. Reminder as requested. Call me." he calls really quickly. But it's kind of hard for me to do that, even though he's asked me to.
Try having the conversation first though. Her standard may be 48 hours. Or she might be concerned about unchargeable time.
I don't think your expectations are unreasonable, but if she's not going to fill them, she's not going to. Then you have decide if she has enough fine and useful qualities to offset that flaw.
Posted by Jost on July 12, 2006, at 10:53:42
In reply to am I expecting too much?, posted by wishingstar on July 11, 2006, at 19:40:21
Wishingstar, the short answer to your question is, no. You're not expecting "too much. "
"Too much" is something that exists in particular ways in particular relationships. You may need something your T can't give you.
Or you may need to work with a T (not necessarily this T) on issues having to do with needing, getting needs met, containing and expressing needs in a way that is more likely to get them met enough -- and so on --
But there is no per se "too much." You need what you need; and you deserve clear expectations, so that you know what your T is willing to give, what her limits are, and then whether they feel right and good to you.
Maybe no T will give you "everything" (in fact no T will, or can), but there are Ts who can give you enough, and help you find them and feel safe enough, and care about enough.
I get the feeling that this issue really needs to be addressed urgently because you've written about it for a while.
At least find out her parameters for returning calls, for asking about how you feel, for showing you in some way (telling you in some way that you can feel as real) that she cares.
Sorry, have to go, I'll check back later,
Jost
Posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:27:47
In reply to Re: am I expecting too much?, posted by ElaineM on July 11, 2006, at 21:02:01
Thanks Elaine...
She actually doesnt ever really talk about what is and isnt okay in terms of calls, even when I bring it up. A year or so ago she actually gave me her cell number in case I needed her urgently, but now I cant get her to respond to anything at all...
A BRIEF :) history...
2 weeks ago I called her and said I was very upset and please call me, and she didnt call back until 2 days later. But the biggest one... a few months back, I was completely falling apart and called her. It was the first time I'd ever asked for her help, and asking for help is a huge issue for me. She said she'd call back at a certain time of the day, and never called. It hurt a lot. I let her know how angry I was, but she never apologized or anything. That was all I really wanted from her.
It's possible she didnt get my message then I guess.. but by 3:00 today (48 hours later) she still hadnt called, so I'm sure she'd gotten it by then. She would have changed her voicemail if she was out of the office. I guess she was busy? My current T here (seeing another while I'm out of town) thinks that shes not responding because I'm being manipulative and we;re playing a game here.. but I dont know. (see my post below on that...)
I just dont know. All possibilities, but I just cant help but feeling like she just doesnt care.
Posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:32:11
In reply to Re: am I expecting too much?, posted by Daisym on July 12, 2006, at 1:06:14
Actually daisy, your post didnt upset or bother me at all. I know you're right. It seems like every time I try to talk to her about something that isnt working though, she either makes absolutely no change or it only works for a week, maybe 2, and things go back to normal. That pattern is what led me to call and ask if she felt manipulated (and possibly, if that is why she never responds to these things).
I've also been very specific about feeling like I'm not being heard. It doesnt seem to matter. She always acts like she completely gets it in the moment, and for awhile I believed it and felt relieved, but I've learned that it only lasts as long as I'm in the room. By the next session, it doesnt seem to matter what I said. It's possible I'm not being clear enough, but I dont know how to be any clearer.
I wont see her again for several weeks. I'm out of town staying with my parents for another 5-6 weeks, so I'm seeing an old T here in town while I'm here. I posted a thread about her below.
I just dont know. It feels like I'm doing something wrong, but I dont know what it could be. I'm thinking of writing her a letter and telling her how I feel, but I dont know. Thanks for your suggestions.
Posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:35:18
In reply to Re: am I expecting too much? » wishingstar, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2006, at 7:33:14
Yes, you're right.. it isnt the first time. When I finally do get her on the phone, we never talk for more than 5-10 min, so I've never thought to offer to pay.. I dont get the feeling that money is the issue.. but who knows. Maybe it is. I'll keep that in mind.
I think maybe I need to be more clear about how much it hurts when she doesnt call. I guess I just assumed that would be very clear to her, given that my biggest issues are rejection and abandonment, but you're right.. it may not be. We have discussed that some, but I guess it needs to come up again. However, right now I'm hung up on the idea that maybe this is my problem and my behavior causing her to not want to talk to me (see the thread below).. I need to get over that first.
Thanks for your thoughts. Youre right.. if she isnt going to do it, she just isnt.
Posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:40:51
In reply to Re: am I expecting too much?, posted by Jost on July 12, 2006, at 10:53:42
That's a good point. My new Ts theory (temporary T) seems to be that it's my needs that are the problem, not her ability to meet needs... I dont feel like I'm asking for a lot though. I've only called asking for support or to talk 3 times in 1+ year. That doesnt feel unreasonable to me. But maybe it is to her. But if it is, why would she have given me her cell number a year ago? What have I done wrong since then? All rhetorical questions, of course.
I think you said one thing that really hit the issue on the head.. I just dont feel safe with her anymore. I dont feel like I can trust her, or that she cares, and consequently, not safe in the least. For 15 years growing up, I thought my parents were just fine and loving (just assumed) until one day in high school, I was proved very wrong. I have a huge fear that others will just change on me too. T is triggering that big time. I may write a letter, but I dont feel like I can call her again right now. I dont know if it'd be the right thing to do, and I really cant handle another rejection from her right now.
Thanks for your ideas.. your responses always give me something to think about. If you run across any magic potions, let me know asap. :)
Posted by Jost on July 12, 2006, at 23:01:52
In reply to Re: am I expecting too much? » Jost, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:40:51
Wishingstar, if I I had that magic potion-- I'd send it to you Express Priority Mail Overnight.
At one of my lowest points, I saw a T for about 9 months, with whom I went through a lot of what you're going through-- and it was so hard. I knew the relationship was destructive, but I felt like I really needed his affirmation.
It took a lot of bad times, but recognized he wasn't the right T for me. Not that he was a bad person, or even a bad T for certain people. Just that he wasn't comfortable with the kind of relationship I needed--and although I think he tried-- he couldn't provide that emotional place where I felt "held" as they say, and safe.
So I had to make that break, which was terribly hard-- and find a new T. It was awful, and I don't recommend it-- but it was necessary. And I was lucky. I did find the right person-- even though I had many struggles and hard times, even then.
But it did make all the difference, over time (and I'm still working on it).
There will be times of doubt, and missed connections, even with the right T--but sometimes there comes a moment when you know that a person can't give you what you need. Which is what counts.
I wanted to reassure you that there are Ts who have what you're looking for-- and that what you need matters-- a tremendous amount.
Maybe it won't be in exactly the shape or form that you might envision-- but the right T will find a way to give you enough so that together you can make that crucial difference.
Jost
Posted by daisym on July 13, 2006, at 12:27:41
In reply to Re: am I expecting too much? » Daisym, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:32:11
I can't help but think you might not be working with the right person. I don't know how long you've been working with her and I don't suggest a change lightly. But if you don't feel heard and held between sessions, which is 99% of your life, the time you are in session isn't going to matter much. Therapy has to stretch over into your real life in ways that you can use as strengths, information and supports. It is about internalizing your therapist.
It is also very, very hard. I can hear my therapist in my head but I still freak out without him.
And I hate to say this, but sometimes the bpd diagnosis results in the kind of treatment you are describing. Everything gets prescribed to that. I hope this isn't the case. And it does sound like this is just the way this therapist works. So it either works for you or it doesn't.
I hope things get back on track when you come back. Until then, be kind to yourself.
This is the end of the thread.
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