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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on July 9, 2006, at 20:05:59
Where is the line between being manipulative and being honest and real with your feelings? And maybe more importantly, what if they're the same thing?
Like I mentioned in some past posts here, I'm seeing a new (well, from several years ago) T since I'm out of town. She is much more directive and pushes more than my regular T at home. I saw her Friday, and we talked about the borderline diagnosis, which I've never officially gotten, but seems to be correct for me (I've thought this for awhile, and she seems to agree). Anyway... I was talking the ways my regular T at home has frustrated and hurt me in the last few months, such as not returning calls quickly when I really need her and ignoring requests/suggestions I've made (like asking her to check in with me regarding my SI, as it would make me feel more heard). Anyway, I told T about how I once left a note for my home T saying I felt like hurting myself in order to get her attention. This was a few months ago, but I felt like she wasnt hearing me at all and I really needed her to know how serious I was. That was obviously a manipulative thing to say to her, but it was also true - I had/was very seriously considering it, so I wanted to tell her in hopes that it could be discussed and I'd feel heard that way. Bottom line was, she mentioned it but nothing came of it.. it didnt help.
Now that my new T has pointed out that leaving that note was manipulative (I didnt really think of it that way at the time, but she's obviously right), I'm wondering if maybe a lot of other things I have done with my regular T at home arent seeming manipulative too. Maybe that's why she's ignoring my requests. I am considering calling her and asking her about that, but I'm not sure if I will or not. If so, what does that mean for me? For my therapy relationship with my regular T? For my relationship with everyone else in my life? Is it possible that when I feel like I'm just being genuine and honest with these things, I'm really just pushing people away and being manipulative? How do I know?
This idea has really sent me into a new kind of depression all weekend. I just feel terrible. Completely hopeless, like there's just no way to fix things. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to do things the right way. If what I have been doing is manipulative, it feels like it'll have to be a choice between being really honest and manipulative, or just not being truly myself. My logical side knows (sort of) that there has to be another option, but I just feel completely hopeless and helpless.
I hope this post made some sense to someone. I dont really have it straight in my head yet either, so sorry if it didnt. Anyone have any thoughts?
Posted by sleepygirl on July 9, 2006, at 20:25:46
In reply to being manipulative versus honest, posted by wishingstar on July 9, 2006, at 20:05:59
dammit! I just typed a whole post then lost it :-(
I attached a link to an article I'm reading (if the link works and anyone is interested)
as for now I don't like the word manipulative, so at the moment I'm thinking that most of the time people might not ask for what they really want/need, either because they don't know what they really want/need, and/or because they are afraid to ask for it or it's something impossible or very difficult to get (ex. assurance that someone will always be there to take care of things)
I don't know, but I hope you won't despair too much, sounds like what might need to be discussed, and sounds like some things can get figured out.
Be gentle with yourself,
sg
http://www.psybc.com/pdfs/library/What_is_Manipulative_Behavior_Anyway.pdf
Posted by Jost on July 9, 2006, at 21:56:53
In reply to being manipulative versus honest, posted by wishingstar on July 9, 2006, at 20:05:59
Wishingstar, did the note say that you were thinking of hurting yourself; or did it say you were thinking of hurting yourself in order to get her attention?
Those are quite different things.
Also, as the article sited by sleepygirl says, there are frequent misattributions of manipulativeness in some therapeutic situations.
I think when Ts use this word, they seem to mean that they feel that the P is overstating, or raising some terrible consequence, in order to extort a special response or proof of caring, to or get some other desired action, that the T has withheld.
But what Ts often overlook, I think, is that people only say things like that when they're feeling desperate and in pain. They forget that pain, if it's really intense, has this quality of being something that needs to stop right away, that it seems you can't stand another minute. And you see your T as having some way of making it better-- if only she cared enough.
Maybe you aren't quite at the point of hurting yourself, maybe you're only at the point where you begin to think about it--and maybe part of that involves a phantasy that someone will rescue you.
But I don't think its manipulative, until you've worked through to that point in T where you really understand that you're overstating the danger, intentionally overdramatizing--and, more importantly, when you really have the ability to control that, to talk about the desire, not as something you're going to do, but something you're imagining doing--with the intention of be able to make a different choice. (This is the article's main point.)
I'm not sure where you were on that spectrum, but I don't think you were being manipulative. Your T might have felt manipulated-- which is a useful bit of information for you about how your saying that can feel-- but doesn't mean she's right in her reaction.
If you said that you were thinking of hurting yourself because you wanted attention--that sounds more like an attempt to open up the issue of your becoming aware that maybe you turn to these extreme self-destructive behaviors because you do feel so lost and alone. That you want to start working on how to handle them differently.Either way-- turning to self-blame isn't the way.
You're doing your best; you really were having the thought.
You need to be honest; and then you can begin to see the role these thoughts play in an interpersonal situation. Maybe your T can learn to reach out more, to give you more that you need; and you can step back from the phantasy, and see that it's about wanting more connection--and can find ways that will make the connection stronger, instead of endangering it.
Sorry this is so long-- maybe I shouldn't have read the article.
Don't use this against yourself-- it's a long struggle to feel stronger, more powerful in relationships, and more worthy of connection and care.
Jost
Posted by Dinah on July 10, 2006, at 9:42:50
In reply to being manipulative versus honest, posted by wishingstar on July 9, 2006, at 20:05:59
Linehan talks a lot about this. She reminds therapists that feeling manipulated and being manipulated are two different things. She also reminds them that everyone tries to get what they want out of a relationship.
A lot of people (myself included at times) believe that the only way to get what they're looking for is to up the ante. And sometimes the environment validates that belief for them. It sounds as if your therapist doesn't respond very well to simple requests for attention or help?
My therapist has tried to teach me that I can just say I'm feeling upset or overwhelmed and he'll give me just as much attention as if I talk about the things I want to do physically. That how I feel matters as much as what I do. It's a hard lesson for me to learn.
Especially since I do genuinely get overwhelmed with thoughts of self harm when I'm really upset - and would even if there were no one there to hear them.
My therapist and I talked about this the other day, calmly and without perjorative adjectives being used. I wish all therapists could be as nonjudgemental.
Posted by wishingstar on July 10, 2006, at 18:11:18
In reply to Re: being manipulative versus honest » wishingstar, posted by sleepygirl on July 9, 2006, at 20:25:46
Thanks for the article.. I printed it out and read the first few pages earlier today. I'm going to try to finish it tonight. As a psych research student, it looks very interesting. I'll probably post more thoughts on it after I finish it.
I like your idea about the word manipulative. I think youre right. If I AM being manipulative, its not on purpose.. I really just need T to hear me and other ways havent worked. It's easy to forget that even manipulative behaviors have underlying pain.. it's not just used to be a difficult patient. Keeping that in mind helps some, at least until I can talk to my T again. I just hope I'm not allowing myself to justify bad behavior somehow. That's always a fear of mine.
Posted by wishingstar on July 10, 2006, at 18:22:09
In reply to Re: being manipulative versus honest » wishingstar, posted by Jost on July 9, 2006, at 21:56:53
hi Jost.. wow, lots to think about.
My letter said something like "I just wanted to let you know that I've been feeling like hurting myself in order to get your attention" and probably mentioned (for the 50th time) how I didnt feel like she was hearing me. So yes, I mentioned it was to get her attention. Looking back, I know that letter was manipulative, although I didnt mean for it to be. But I really was serious.. I wasnt in imminent danger right then, but I was seriously considering acting. I didnt say it ONLY to get her attention.. I said it so she'd realize how badly I needed her to hear me and how unheard I was truly feeling, and to understand that I was feeling bad enough that I wasnt sure if I was safe. I like what you said about her FEELING manipulated, because thats probably what happened. She may have felt it, but it wasnt the intent. But in situations like this, does intent on the manipulators side really matter? Probably not... If I had said it and it wasnt true, that'd be manipulative, but if it was true, then it's just.. true. Even if the result is her feeling a certain way. Maybe?
What I really hoped was that shed realize how unheard I felt and would actively try to work with me so I felt more heard. Unfortunately, that didnt happen. Now I wonder if the reason it didnt happen was because she felt like I was just being manipulative. I've felt in the past like she really discounts my self-harm talk because I've never made a "real" suicide attempt in the past. That also added to my feelings.. I wanted to show her how serious I was so she'd finally hear me.
I really thought I was doing the right thing by leaving her that note.. who knows. Maybe she just isnt the T for me, or maybe I've been going about this all wrong. I just dont know.
Your points have really helped... it helps me not blame myself quite as harshly. Thank you.
Posted by wishingstar on July 10, 2006, at 18:32:51
In reply to Re: being manipulative versus honest, posted by Dinah on July 10, 2006, at 9:42:50
Can I borrow your therapist for a few days? Just kidding... I know he isnt always perfect, especially recently. But he does sound like he's really hearing you on these issues.
Mine unfortunately doesnt really do that. You're right, she really doesnt respond well to requests for attention. The note about wanting to hurt myself was by far not the first mention I'd made of not feeling like she was hearing me or paying attention to me. We had discussed it many times before, and she always said I had her undivided attention for the hour. I tried to explain it better, but she never really got it. Even when I asked for specific things (like asking her to check in with my regarding SI/suicidal thoughts during a very bad period) she agreed to do so, but forgot after about 2 weeks and hasnt done so since. It really makes me feel like she isnt even aware that I feel bad half the time. Words (even ones that FEEL pretty direct to me) just dont get the message across. I wonder if its me or her? Is she choosing to not act in the way I want her to because I'm being manipulative, is she just not hearing me because shes not a good T for me, or am I not being as clear as I think I am? I dont know.
I know that she fears being too symptom-focused in therapy. She doesnt want to talk about the SI or the lack of eating or whatever I'm struggling with at the time, preferring to talk about the underlying things. I obviously think the underlying problems are the most important, but sometimes I just need her to say "wow, you're really feeling bad". But maybe I'm being too needy? I dont know. I grew up in a family where emotional needs just didnt exist, so it's hard to know if I'm correct in feeling this way or just acting out some dysfunctional patterns.
Sorry for rambling. I think it's somehow making me feel better though. Thank you.
Posted by wishingstar on July 10, 2006, at 18:35:12
In reply to being manipulative versus honest, posted by wishingstar on July 9, 2006, at 20:05:59
I left a message for my regular T at home this evening asking her if the reason we battle so much over things I want her to do (to make me feel more heard) versus doing things "her way" is because she feels like I'm being manipulative, or if it's something else. Hopefully she'll call back tomorrow (although her track record for that isnt good). I'm not even sure I'd feel worse if she said yes.. at least I'd understand then. We'll see.
Posted by Racer on July 11, 2006, at 22:48:27
In reply to Re: being manipulative versus honest » Dinah, posted by wishingstar on July 10, 2006, at 18:32:51
> But maybe I'm being too needy? I dont know. I grew up in a family where emotional needs just didnt exist, so it's hard to know if I'm correct in feeling this way or just acting out some dysfunctional patterns.
I can answer the last part: yeah, you're acting out some dysfunctional patterns, just by virtue of thinking that there's any "correct" way to feel. If you feel it, then it's the correct way for you to feel at that time.
(I have a lot of trouble getting my head around that myself, so don't feel as though you're the only one who's dysfunctional on that topic. I think a lot of us heard that we were "wrong" to feel certain ways. But if you think about it now, can you see that the times someone close to you told you you were "too needy," they were probably too caught up in themselves and didn't want to break a sweat over your needs? I'm starting to see that in my own history. Finally.)
So, in terms of "too needy," here's the question I would ask you to think about: what, precisely, is the optimal level of neediness? AHA! I'll bet you said that there is none, that being needy at all is just a terrible thing, it's unfair to everyone around you, it's a sign of all sorts of bad things, etc, right? Guess what? We all have needs, emotional needs, physical needs, social needs, intellectual needs, etc. The question is, how effective are we at getting our needs met? The answer for many of us here is "not very..."
I think I'd advise you to discuss some of your feelings with T2 about whether this therapy situation is effective for you. It doesn't sound as though you're feeling as though your needs are being met -- and your need to feel heard is a real need, a legitimate need, and an appropriate need. If it's not happ'nin', well...
Best luck to you.
Posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 17:21:55
In reply to Re: being manipulative versus honest » wishingstar, posted by Racer on July 11, 2006, at 22:48:27
thanks racer.. you made a very good point. you're right, my reaction was "there is no good level of neediness". You're also right that I grew up in a home that reinforced that... my "only" "problem" as a child was that my parents were completely emotionally unavailable to me. It has definitely left its mark.
I talked to Laurie (T here) today about it.. I posted about that below. Unfortunately, she sort of reinfoced my fears. I'm "doing it wrong". I'm being manipulative. Well then how the heck can you be honest, ask for what you need, and NOT be manipulative? How is "I'm wondering if I'm being manipulative towards you, I'm upset, please call me" and expecting a response soon manipulative? Im feeling pretty terrible about all this.. I'm not sure I'll ever win. Ugh.
But my logical side, buried deep in my left toe, knows youre right. I KNOW I'm not a bad person. If I cant be needy and honest about that neediness with my T, who can I be needy with? I'm pretty sure I'm not being manipulative. I guess the next thing I need to accept is that my regular T just isnt what I need her to be. Yes, I guess that needs to be discussed.
This is the end of the thread.
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