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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 42. Go back in thread:
Posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 20:37:10
In reply to CatieCat » CatieCat, posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 18:50:11
> I know you’re hurting. And I can hear that your post comes out of that hurt. But I wonder if you may be jumping to conclusions when you suspect the threat is being used loosely. I don’t know if you’ve ever felt suicidal yourself. I have. In fact, I regularly feel suicidal; it’s a symptom of my illness.
Yes, I have felt suicidal many times, and I also understand the original posters pain.
> I hope you’re not offended by my rather candid remarks. I don’t want to offend you. I just want to explain how I view threats of suicide. I think they’re entirely serious. I don’t think people threaten suicide lightly.
>
> I hope you can understand that the threat you read about here came from a very deep and intolerable pain, and was not calculated to be manipulative.
>I'm not offended at all. In fact, I appreciate that you understood where I was coming from as well. My only point, which I'll say again is that I wasn't bothered by the original poster saying she felt (or would feel) suicidal; to be honest, I would too! It's the way she said she would threaten suicide if he tries to terminate. Maybe it's the word threaten that I am having a problem with. I don't know. I understand it's a serious thing, maybe that is why I would *feel it, but not *threaten to threaten my therapist with that. Does that make sense? I'm just trying to be clear, and not rude. But I do appreciate you taking the time to try and understand where I am coming from as well.
Catie
Posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 20:45:03
In reply to Please rephrase » CatieCat, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 19:49:13
> Still, given that we are to be supportive and sensitive in our posts here, would you please rephrase the above statements?
Should I just offer hugs and fluff? I mean the other responses were fine, but noone addresses the threat to the therapist?
> > My post was not snarky at all.
>
> I never said it was.Neither did I, that was my word.
GG,
I'm really not trying to be rude, and to be honest, if you read my above post to Tamar, you may see where I am coming from. (especially with you also being in the MH field). Like I said, maybe it's just the wording. Feeling that way is one thing, and I would be more than supportive, but to flat out threaten to threaten the action if one doesn't get their way, well, I guess I just have a problem with that. Sorry.Catie
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2006, at 21:12:31
In reply to i feel sick, posted by Karolina on June 20, 2006, at 18:15:23
((((Karolina))))
I know how hard it can be to be in distress and then have that distress be the subject of discussion.
If it means anything to you, I understand completely what you mean. When my therapist told me something the other day that threatened my therapy, I responded with a threat of suicide to him. It wasn't premeditated and I'm not proud of it. And if I had to do it over again, I probably wouldn't. Not least because I was instantly afraid of how he'd respond.
But I too am so attached to him that the thought of losing him is scarier than *anything*.
It's completely natural to be scared after revealing something so personal. Therapists vary widely in their ability to handle these things, but you haven't said anything to suggest to me that he'll respond in an overwhelmingly negative way.
Will you let me know how it goes? I really do want to know how he responds. And don't worry about whether you are being responsive enough here. We all give when we can, and take when we need, and that's ok. That's what the board is for.
((((Karolina))))
Posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 21:16:43
In reply to Please rephrase » CatieCat, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 19:49:13
I've given it more thought, and it is the word 'threaten' that I have a problem with. (And I admit, maybe it is just my problem.)
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see anyone take their own life (or hurt themself at all for that matter!). But to me, there is a big difference between saying, "I feel __________" or "I feel like _______ ________" and making a blanket threat (or a threat to threat).
I'm having a hard time articulating this.
Here are two comments from this original post:
"If he did...I think I would feel devastated, it would probably make me feel suicidal."
Now, I don't have a problem with this. It's an honest expression of a feeling as a result of a potential undesired action. I can totally empathize with that. I've already admitted that I've felt that way plenty of times before and can say that at this point in time, if my therapist wanted to terminate with me now, I would feel the same way.
and
"I really do think I'll threaten suicide if he tries to terminate me."
Doesn't anyone else see the difference?? Even rewriting this quote makes me want to go back to my original comment.
Catie
Posted by Adrift on June 21, 2006, at 21:30:12
In reply to It's the word *threaten*, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 21:16:43
>Doesn't anyone else see the difference?? Even rewriting this quote makes me want to go back to my original comment.
yes, I see it the same way as you
Posted by orchid on June 21, 2006, at 21:38:41
In reply to It's the word *threaten*, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 21:16:43
> I've given it more thought, and it is the word 'threaten' that I have a problem with. (And I admit, maybe it is just my problem.)
>
> Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see anyone take their own life (or hurt themself at all for that matter!). But to me, there is a big difference between saying, "I feel __________" or "I feel like _______ ________" and making a blanket threat (or a threat to threat).
>
> I'm having a hard time articulating this.
>
> Here are two comments from this original post:
>
> "If he did...I think I would feel devastated, it would probably make me feel suicidal."
>
> Now, I don't have a problem with this. It's an honest expression of a feeling as a result of a potential undesired action. I can totally empathize with that. I've already admitted that I've felt that way plenty of times before and can say that at this point in time, if my therapist wanted to terminate with me now, I would feel the same way.
>
> and
>
> "I really do think I'll threaten suicide if he tries to terminate me."
>
> Doesn't anyone else see the difference?? Even rewriting this quote makes me want to go back to my original comment.
>
> CatieHi Catie,
I think there might be a difference in the intention behind the *threaten* word that probably would make all the difference.
Some people threaten death or suicide just to get their way with world. Oh if you don't do this, I will commit suicide, of course with clearly no intention of doing so ever. THAT is what is morally wrong, if you ask me, and that is just plain and blatant manipulation.
On the ohter hand, there are somethings which *really* makes a person extremely anxious and evokes extreme pain in them, that they don't think they can live through it. Losing a therapist many times evokes intense suicidal feelings - you are going to loose the one person who cared about you the most in the world - that is hard for anyone to take, and people feel usually suicidal with abrupt terminations. And her saying that she might threaten her T, comes from the fact that she anticipates the intense pain that she will be in if her T terminates her over what she said to him. And that is really very understandable, especially so, if you have ever been through with a T and termination. It is not a ploy to manipulate the T, but it is a way of letting out the intense pain that she feels or anticipates to feel. And I think she is only trying to make it clear how much he means to her.
I do understand your feelings about suicide, I have lost couple of friends to suicide too, and they are extremely hard to take. But I think Karolina was only expressing her pain, and trying any desperate attempt to save the relationships (even if that involves a little threatening), so that she (god forbit not) isn't forced to hurt herself by losing him. It is a desperate attempt to save herself, and not to hurt the T.
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2006, at 21:42:54
In reply to It's the word *threaten*, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 21:16:43
You can think and feel anything you want, but your ability to voice the thoughts are limited by the civility rules.
Which don't allow you to post anything that could lead another poster to feel accused or put down. Which don't allow you to categorize the posts or other posters in negative terms.
You might wish to review the link gg (who is an official deputy of this site) gave you.
Deputies are available by email or babblemail to help you review your rephrase before posting it, if that will help.
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2006, at 21:45:54
In reply to Here is my take » CatieCat, posted by orchid on June 21, 2006, at 21:38:41
That was lovely, Orchid.
It was certainly the way I felt when I did it.
Bless my therapist for understanding that.
Posted by pegasus on June 21, 2006, at 21:59:29
In reply to Please rephrase » CatieCat, posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 19:49:13
The problem here seems to be in the way CC expressed her (?) opinion, not in the opinion itself. This comes up a lot here. When someone is asked to rephrase something that they feel strongly is true, it can feel like someone is invalidating what they think or feel. Which isn't always the point of the request for rephrase.
Anyway, here are some suggestions about how CC's original comments could be rephrased to be appropriate to this site:
> Maybe it's just a major gripe of mine when someone threatens it in a manipulative way.
Could be something like: I'm not sure exactly what you meant, but sometimes people give a suicide ultimatum to try to get a certain behavior in response. That is very painful to me, because I lost a friend who did that and then didn't get the response she hoped . . . I can't stand to think that this might happen to you.
>But to threaten suicide as a plan if you don't get your way is a little ridiculous if you really think about it.
Could be: I hate to see a threat of suicide be used to try to get someone else to change. Because what if they don't change their mind? Then you would have the same problem and also be stuck with your threat, which could be a very dangerous and painful place to be. Maybe we can help you think of other things to do if worse comes to worst with your T.
Just some examples, to hopefully help.
peg
Posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 22:17:20
In reply to Here is my take » CatieCat, posted by orchid on June 21, 2006, at 21:38:41
Original Post:
> > "If he did...I think I would feel devastated, it would probably make me feel suicidal."and
> > "I really do think I'll threaten suicide if he tries to terminate me."
-----------------
>
> Some people threaten death or suicide just to get their way with world. Oh if you don't do this, I will commit suicide, of course with clearly no intention of doing so ever. THAT is what is morally wrong, if you ask me, and that is just plain and blatant manipulation.But isn't "I really do think I'll treaten suicide if he tries to terminate me" manipulative? Even though I know and understand where the feelings are coming from, why threaten him? Feel that way, ok, we'll help you deal with it. Yes it will be hard, and yes it will hurt like heck, but they are honest feelings.
> On the ohter hand, there are somethings which *really* makes a person extremely anxious and evokes extreme pain in them, that they don't think they can live through it. Losing a therapist many times evokes intense suicidal feelings - you are going to loose the one person who cared about you the most in the world - that is hard for anyone to take, and people feel usually suicidal with abrupt terminations. And her saying that she might threaten her T, comes from the fact that she anticipates the intense pain that she will be in if her T terminates her over what she said to him. And that is really very understandable, especially so, if you have ever been through with a T and termination. It is not a ploy to manipulate the T, but it is a way of letting out the intense pain that she feels or anticipates to feel. And I think she is only trying to make it clear how much he means to her.Again, I completely understand that. (That is why from the beginning I made it clear that I didn't have a problem with her saying that she would feel devastated and probably suicidal.) And again, yes I too would feel suicidal if my T terminated me. But, would I threaten *her with that if she were to terminate me? NO! Yes I would feel it. I would even tell her that. God forbid I might even be seriously tempted to act on it, but to threaten her with it just to keep me? That's what I am having a problem with. Why hang it over her head? Why feel like I am forcing her to stay with my just so that I don't do anything? I think I'd feel more guilt for that.
I really should have dropped this. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything, but I guess it's something I really feel strongly about.
Catie
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2006, at 22:17:29
In reply to Re: Please rephrase, posted by pegasus on June 21, 2006, at 21:59:29
Psychology board posters are just wonderful. That actually gave me something to think about too.
Posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 22:20:37
In reply to Re: Please rephrase, posted by pegasus on June 21, 2006, at 21:59:29
I'll agree that your wording is a bit more eloquent. :)
Posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2006, at 22:44:59
In reply to Re: Please rephrase » pegasus, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 22:20:37
> I'll agree that your wording is a bit more eloquent. :)
>
And so please try one more time with your rephrase. Pegasus has given excellent examples to model your rephrase after that do not have to be just hugs and fluff. And you're always free to get a consult about it if you wish.Thanks in advance.
deputy gg
Posted by muffled on June 21, 2006, at 23:09:45
In reply to i feel sick, posted by Karolina on June 20, 2006, at 18:15:23
Posted by muffled on June 21, 2006, at 23:16:58
In reply to Re: Here is my take » orchid, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 22:17:20
This thread is not supportive of the original poster.
Most unsuppotive.
Sucks.
Seriously sucks.
F*cking completely sucks.
Something is wrong here.
I'm to screwed up to figger it.
I think this thread should be re-directed from the point it went away from the point, and now I adding to the stupid damn problem and that the way this stupid world is.
So WTF we supposed to do anyway???????????????????????
SORRY Karolina
((((((((((((Karolina)))))))))))))))))
I know its so lonely and hard to feel so desparate.
But you not alone.
You not alone ok.
Muffled
Posted by Karolina on June 21, 2006, at 23:19:32
In reply to i feel sick, posted by Karolina on June 20, 2006, at 18:15:23
Hi everyone.
I appreciate all the feedback, understanding, and support. I'm really sorry if the way I phrased how I was feeling sounded over-dramatic and manipulative. I completely understand that suicide is a serious thing, and I wasn't throwing the word around casually when I said all that.
I am in a lot of mental pain right now that no one else really knows about. It's like I'm able to keep it hidden from the outside world, but on the inside I feel very alone and empty, I don't even really know why except that I've been upset about my boyfriend, I've gotten into a fight with my best friend, my parents are always traveling and never home, etc.
My T means so much to me and what I meant is that if he told me we had to terminate, I would be devastated. If my T rejected me, then I would feel even more alone. I wouldn't say something like 'i'm going to kill myself and it's going to be because of YOU, it's going to be all YOUR fault'...I would probably just try my best to explain that hearing him bring up the idea about termination really, really upsets me and that I feel like I would have an extremely hard time coping with it, and that it provokes thoughts of harming myself because I am so mad at myself.
I can't even describe the hurt I would feel if he told me not come back and referred me somewhere else. The idea of having to start all over again (explaining my history of issues and stuff) and learning to trust somebody totally new really seems overwhelming and frustrating. Especially since I am already in such a distressed state right now with other things going on.
I was thinking about it though and I really don't know that he would just outright admit that he is attracted to me and say that's why things have to stop. But I still dont' even know if he is or not. And if he isn't, then the whole topic of me feeling attracted to him shouldn't even bother him personally or make him feel tempted for something to happen, etc.
He seems too worried about his repuation to possibly admit that he is attracted to a 20 year old female client when he's married and has a son the exact same age as me. I think he would worry (if he said the attraction was the reason why we were quitting things) that I would get mad and go tell everyone I know that he's a pervert, which would hurt his practice. (he's pretty well-known in the city). And for him to say something as vague as 'i don't think I'm helping you anymore' would be crap because he agreed to continue working with me after the whole mess of having to come home from my internship. I've written about that in other posts I think, about how he had been encouraging the idea of seeing an eating disorder specialist and was kind of a jerk about it, but then decided at last minute he could still help me. So basically what I'm trying to say is that he couldn't use that excuse again of not thinking he's helpful, after he just reassured me that he *could* help me...sorry I know all that is kind of confusing.
Maybe I am just over-worrying about everything. But I'm so scared of getting hurt right now. I don't think it would be fair for him to punish me like that when I am only expressing feelings, especially when we have kind of talked about this stuff before. But it makes me sick, I could have kept the feelings to myself and let the therapy keep going, but now I've risked ruining things. I guess that's why I feel mad at myself.
-Karolina-
Posted by Jost on June 22, 2006, at 0:53:45
In reply to Re: i feel sick, posted by Karolina on June 21, 2006, at 23:19:32
Karolina, your anxiety is very understandable, but please try very hard to remember that you're a deserving, worthwhile, thoughtful person who's struggling with difficult issues.
I hope your T can respond well, and know it would be very painful and frightening if he can't. But if he doesn't, that says more about his limitations in his ability to help you, not because there's something wrong with you, but because he's limited in that way. Everyone does have limits, even people we love or idealize, or are attracted to. Those limits can be very very hurtful, and hard to accept.
But I hope you'll keep posting, and try not to hurt yourself in reaction to whatever happens. There are many here who can offer support and understanding that may make a difference.
Is your appointment tomorrow (ie now today, June 22)?
I'm very much thinking about you and hoping your T responds in a deep way to what you've confided to him.
Jost
Posted by CatieCat on June 22, 2006, at 9:31:07
In reply to Re: i feel sick, posted by Karolina on June 21, 2006, at 23:19:32
Karolina,
I apologize for my earlier posts. I still stand by and firmly believe in my response, and to be honest, I would probably respond the same way if this were to happen exactly the same again. I know one of the reasons I reacted so strongly was because not only did I lose a friend to suicide, but I lost her in the same way - she was threatening her therapist. I'll leave out the details, but hope you can see where I was coming from.
Now with that being said, I'd like to respond to your latest post.
> My T means so much to me and what I meant is that if he told me we had to terminate, I would be devastated. If my T rejected me, then I would feel even more alone. I wouldn't say something like 'i'm going to kill myself and it's going to be because of YOU, it's going to be all YOUR fault'...I would probably just try my best to explain that hearing him bring up the idea about termination really, really upsets me and that I feel like I would have an extremely hard time coping with it, and that it provokes thoughts of harming myself because I am so mad at myself.I hear your fear and your pain, and can also tell you that if I were in your situation I would be feeling the same way. I don't want to sound like a hypocrite, but yes I would *feel the same way. In fact, it did happen to me, and I did feel the same are you are feeling/anticipating.
I can't see your therapist terminating you because of this; they are trained to work with the feelings that come up. As my T would say, if it's too hot he should get out of the kitchen. (Or whatever that saying is <g>).
But I do understand your fear. I do understand what it's like to have one person in the world who cares about you, and the thought of losing them is terrifying.Babble is a great board. Let them/us support you through whatever happens. But please, I'm saying this out of concern, please don't threaten to threaten him if things don't go your way. I understand your feelings; I think many of us do... but talk to us, don't threaten. I don't want to see you go through what my friend did.
Catie
Posted by pegasus on June 22, 2006, at 12:43:03
In reply to Re: Please rephrase » pegasus, posted by CatieCat on June 21, 2006, at 22:20:37
Well, eloquence wasn't the point, really. The point was rephrasing the stuff in a way that still reflects your thoughts, but is also supportive. It's an attitude thing. I may not have completely gotten what you were trying to say. The point is that you can say almost anything that isn't specifically intended to be mean spirited in a kind and/or supportive way. And usually that's more helpful to the person receiving the comments (and I find it helps me when I'm the one making the comments).
Sorry to bang on a dead horse here. It's just that I've learned so much from babble about alternative ways to "talk" to people. It's hard for me to let it go when I think that someone is not understanding the point of the warnings. Probably part of my psychopathology. I just want to say, "Please try it! I think you'll find it to be a really good experience! You don't have to take back your opinions."
peg
Posted by orchid on June 22, 2006, at 12:53:56
In reply to Re: i feel sick » Karolina, posted by CatieCat on June 22, 2006, at 9:31:07
For what happened to your friend? Maybe you feel that if you had been very strict with her, she wouldn't have done it, and it makes you feel like being very strict and rigid about this? Perhaps that is why you are feeling so strongly about this, and none of us have that experience, so we are perhaps not able to understand your pain and suffering that makes you feel so strongly about this issue.
Take Care
And no if you still feel strongly about this particular issue, I think it is ok. You don't have to keep trying to rephrase. And I think you do know how to be supportive and warm, and this issue is perhpas triggering it too much for you to handle it, and that is ok.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 22, 2006, at 13:02:37
In reply to Re: i feel sick » Karolina, posted by CatieCat on June 22, 2006, at 9:31:07
> I apologize for my earlier posts.
Thanks, but please don't post under more than one name at the same time or change your posting name without following these steps:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#names
I'm going to block this name, please either return to your old name or switch (following the above steps) to another new one.
> I know one of the reasons I reacted so strongly was because not only did I lose a friend to suicide, but I lost her in the same way - she was threatening her therapist. I'll leave out the details, but hope you can see where I was coming from.
If you're willing to share some of those details, I think you'd get a lot of support here...
Bob
Posted by Karolina on June 24, 2006, at 0:21:06
In reply to Re: i feel sick, posted by Jost on June 22, 2006, at 0:53:45
Thanks Jost for your kind post.
I see him next thursday, the 29th...I'm worried about it but I'll keep all of you posted. Thanks again for your response
-Karolina-
Posted by ElaineM on June 24, 2006, at 10:34:57
In reply to Re: i feel sick » Jost, posted by Karolina on June 24, 2006, at 0:21:06
Karolina,
Holy cow, I was so nervous about not seeing posts from you. I hope you're okay. Confrontation (good or bad or whatever) can be hard to deal with. Infact, it's the only thing I, myself, find kind of triggering (which is weird).And I have a good feeling about your note. I think it will be okay. Let us know how it goes, either way.(unless you don't want to) Especially if you need help. I wish I had more support to give you.
I'll send you vibes next Thursday.
Elaine
Posted by Karolina on June 26, 2006, at 21:23:01
In reply to Good to hear » Karolina, posted by ElaineM on June 24, 2006, at 10:34:57
Thanks, Elaine.
I'm feeling pretty depressed right now, I hate it because it seems like I have so many intense feelings between appointments, then by the time it's actually the day I see him - I feel completely numb and don't even care about seeing him. It's really weird. I'm trying not to let that happen this time. But I think I'm depressed because I'm scared of the rejection thing. I'll let all of you know how it goes, thanks for being here for me.
-Karolina-
Posted by ElaineM on June 30, 2006, at 16:42:58
In reply to Re: Good to hear » ElaineM, posted by Karolina on June 26, 2006, at 21:23:01
This is the end of the thread.
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