![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 1:03:47
Whatever "it" is, that is.
At my last session, I told my T about a thread from awhile back. If you could ask your T one question that he or she would have to answer, what would it be? I posted something, but then thought about it some more. I came up with the question, "have you ever had a dream about me?" Anyway, I told my T this was my question. I immediately said I knew he couldn't answer. If he did, and the answer was no, that would crush me. If he didn't, I would assume he couldn't because the answer was no. And, I'm guessing he couldn't tell me if he did. So, we talked about what I hoped for and what it would mean to me if he did dream about me. (That I'm a part of his "real" life, even his unconscious life, and I matter enough for him to dream about me.) It also moved into a discussion about what I imagine his family to be like and how I want to be more like him. It was an interesting and fruitful discussion. What I'm wondering is, would it ever help for me to hear his answer instead of just talking about it?
Then, I've been dancing around the issue of a hug from him for months, I think. I told him a dream I had where he hugged me and I think he was actually moved by it. We talked again on Saturday about what I would get out of a hug from him. It was very difficult and emotional for me to tell him. I know it's important, but again, would it ever help to actually get the hug?
It gets exhausting, you know? I feel like we're talking everything to death. I know...it's talk therapy, but can't a hug ever just be a hug?
Laurie
Posted by antigua on May 31, 2006, at 4:28:41
In reply to Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 1:03:47
I love hugs. My T hugs me after every session, or I reach out to hug her. She just started this in the last year or so, but has always hugged me if I asked.
WOw, a thought just occurred to me. I've been in the middle of this "situation" with a male authority figure who has been rejecting me (like my father, I'm sure). I told my T that if he would just give me a hug, I would be fine, really fine. I meant it. I will never get that hug, and I'm sure it wouldn't be what I expected, but... maybe that's why my T hugs me now.
I think I'm going to ask her today. She has been away and I've missed her.
hope everyone has a lovely day,
antigua
Posted by annierose on May 31, 2006, at 6:55:14
In reply to Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 1:03:47
I'm conflicted. I too think I want to know more about my T, about her real life, her family, etc. But then I think back to the possibility of actually running into her on vacation last Easter, with her family, and how anxious that made me feel, actually sick to my stomach, and I realized there must be a reason it's best we do not know about them.
Now I did ask my T if she ever thinks about me outside her office. And she said, "Yes". I should have followed up, "In what context?", but I didn't. She said, "I'm a human being. I couldn't do this job if I didn't care about my clients." A year ago she began a session, "I just saw a (this movie) and I thought of you. Have you seen it?" I didn't but I went out to see it.
When I read your post, I wished after you asked, "Have you ever had a dream about me?", you let the question hang there. I've been asking more questions and I just let them sit in the room for awhile. It's hard and can be uncomfortble. Sometimes she surprises me with wonderful, thoughtful answers. And it's in those answers that I hear how much she does care about me.
I think it's human nature to want to know about someone that we love so deeply. Our T's are so important to us, we care about their feelings, and we want them to like us back. We are interested in knowing them too.
Talking therapy. The most complex, difficult, loving, rewarding relationship.
Posted by fallsfall on May 31, 2006, at 8:48:26
In reply to Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 1:03:47
You can get answers and hugs from everyone else in the world.
Therapy is the only place that you look at the questions and requests.
Therapy also teaches us to wait and to accept that some things can never be.
My therapist has showed me that it is possible to say no with complete compassion. It is the same compassion that I had when my babies had to get a shot at the doctor's.
I don't want to trade the specialness of therapy for a hug.
Posted by Dinah on May 31, 2006, at 9:03:49
In reply to Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 1:03:47
I think I agree with Falls. I've had hugs, and it was nowhere near as special as the emotional holding of therapy.
On the other hand, had he refused to hug me, it would have probably become a huge deal to me. By agreeing, he made it into a nonissue.
But maybe it's not supposed to be a nonissue?
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 9:36:51
In reply to Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 1:03:47
I admire what you've done. What you talked about. I'm really impressed. Mystery has been cleared up, thereby.
> I know...it's talk therapy, but can't a hug ever just be a hug?
>
> LaurieDo you think a hug with your therapist could ever be just a hug?
Lar
Posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 13:15:38
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by antigua on May 31, 2006, at 4:28:41
> I love hugs. My T hugs me after every session, or I reach out to hug her. She just started this in the last year or so, but has always hugged me if I asked.
>
> WOw, a thought just occurred to me. I've been in the middle of this "situation" with a male authority figure who has been rejecting me (like my father, I'm sure). I told my T that if he would just give me a hug, I would be fine, really fine. I meant it. I will never get that hug, and I'm sure it wouldn't be what I expected, but... maybe that's why my T hugs me now.
>
> I think I'm going to ask her today. She has been away and I've missed her.
> hope everyone has a lovely day,
> antigua(((antigua))) <----- since you said you love them ;)
I know what you mean about feeling like the hug would make you feel better regardless of what you expect it to be. Isn’t there something inherent in a hug from the right person that offers some sort of acceptance?
I think talking about your hugs would be a lovely way to get back into your sessions. I'm glad you don't have to miss her anymore.
Laurie
Posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 13:20:19
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it? » All Done, posted by annierose on May 31, 2006, at 6:55:14
> I'm conflicted. I too think I want to know more about my T, about her real life, her family, etc. But then I think back to the possibility of actually running into her on vacation last Easter, with her family, and how anxious that made me feel, actually sick to my stomach, and I realized there must be a reason it's best we do not know about them.
It’s amazing how the tidbits of information I’ve gotten about my T have affected me and all the transference. I try to let my imagination run with whatever I’ve learned and share that with him. It almost always leads to discussions that tell us a lot more about me than if I had just tried to tell him “everything”. I usually end up surprising myself with what I’m feeling.
That said, I’ve never run into him outside of the office. That would probably make me very anxious as his real life is probably nothing like the life I’ve created in my head for him.
> Now I did ask my T if she ever thinks about me outside her office. And she said, "Yes". I should have followed up, "In what context?", but I didn't. She said, "I'm a human being. I couldn't do this job if I didn't care about my clients." A year ago she began a session, "I just saw a (this movie) and I thought of you. Have you seen it?" I didn't but I went out to see it.I’ve made it very clear to my T that I want him to think about me more than just during my sessions. I spent the better part of my youth alone and that didn’t seem to matter much to anyone. I wish they would have noticed or cared how I was feeling, but my mom, for one, is very good about putting herself first. She always assumed I was fine instead of wondering or asking how I’m really doing.
Anyway, he knows it’s important to me and actually called me once during a difficult time just to let me know he was thinking about me and wondering how I’m doing.
It’s nice when they tell us and show us that they care, isn’t it?
> When I read your post, I wished after you asked, "Have you ever had a dream about me?", you let the question hang there. I've been asking more questions and I just let them sit in the room for awhile. It's hard and can be uncomfortble. Sometimes she surprises me with wonderful, thoughtful answers. And it's in those answers that I hear how much she does care about me.I guess this one was just too uncomfortable for me.
> I think it's human nature to want to know about someone that we love so deeply. Our T's are so important to us, we care about their feelings, and we want them to like us back. We are interested in knowing them too.I told him I want him to love me back. After he asked if I thought he could love me, I said I thought it was possible, he just couldn’t ever tell me, if he did. He said maybe it depended on the circumstances (of the therapy and the client). He’d have to give it a lot of thought.
> Talking therapy. The most complex, difficult, loving, rewarding relationship.You forgot exhausting. ;)
Thanks, annierose. It’s always nice to hear from you. How are you doing?Laurie
Posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 13:32:14
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by fallsfall on May 31, 2006, at 8:48:26
> You can get answers and hugs from everyone else in the world.
I know and I do. They just aren’t the same. I think that’s kind of like telling someone who needs moisturizing soap for dry skin that they can only find at a beauty store that they can get regular Dial at the grocery store. Yeah, it’ll get them clean, but their skin will still be crying out for moisture.
> Therapy is the only place that you look at the questions and requests.You must not live in my head. ;)
I guess I’m saying it’s hard to do that *all* of the time.
> Therapy also teaches us to wait and to accept that some things can never be.But some things *can be*, no?
> My therapist has showed me that it is possible to say no with complete compassion. It is the same compassion that I had when my babies had to get a shot at the doctor's.Nice comparison. :) I’ve seen that look on my T’s face, as well. And I have no doubt, he would make it as easy as he could, if he said no to my request for a hug. I’m just really wondering how long I want to talk about what it would mean to get a hug versus actually asking him for one (if I ever decide to ask).
> I don't want to trade the specialness of therapy for a hug.Does it have to be a trade off? Is there a possibility it could add to the specialness of therapy?
Sorry, falls, I'm sounding defensive or argumentative or something. Just looking to talk it all out.Hugs, :)
Laurie
Posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 13:33:32
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it? » All Done, posted by Dinah on May 31, 2006, at 9:03:49
> I think I agree with Falls. I've had hugs, and it was nowhere near as special as the emotional holding of therapy.
I remember you saying that. It’s one thing that keeps me from actually asking him for one. I’ve told him I’m guessing it can’t and won’t be as nice as I want.
> On the other hand, had he refused to hug me, it would have probably become a huge deal to me. By agreeing, he made it into a nonissue.
>
> But maybe it's not supposed to be a nonissue?Apparently, it’s not supposed to be a nonissue in my therapy. :)
Posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 13:35:05
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it? » All Done, posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 9:36:51
> I admire what you've done. What you talked about. I'm really impressed. Mystery has been cleared up, thereby.
Thanks. I try really hard to make the most out of therapy. I think I have a good T. I don’t want to take that for granted.
> > I know...it's talk therapy, but can't a hug ever just be a hug?
> >
> > Laurie
>
> Do you think a hug with your therapist could ever be just a hug?
>
> LarNo. But if there’s one thing I’ve learned in therapy so far it’s that I can wish.
Posted by Dinah on May 31, 2006, at 13:40:07
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it? » Dinah, posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 13:33:32
I have to confess that I see no particular purpose in fostering an obsession in a client by refusing to give a hug and making it into a huge deal instead of something that, in this area at least, is often a social nicety. (I hate that!)
But I guess I can assume it's because I don't understand the overlaying meanings that a hug can bring.
What if it wasn't any big deal? What if was? What if you picked up some unpleasant odor that might affect your opinion of your therapist?
I guess there might be more to a hug than just a hug.
But maybe there isn't.
Posted by Daisym on June 1, 2006, at 0:33:08
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by Dinah on May 31, 2006, at 13:40:07
He said, "usually, but not always." "Depends"
And then he sort of grinned and said, "not very helpful, am I?" Nope!
Together we tried to sort through the external issue of wanting something (I did NOT use hugs as an example) and the internal issue of why I might want something. Like, I know talking about my childhood has been disruptive in so many ways and it may well have been better left alone -- not discussed. But internally there was a need to share it with someone.
But I agree with Dinah. It is so true of human beings that the forbidden becomes the obsession. And I've never believed that one size fits all. The one thing I do know is that many of the "rules" of therapy are to protect therapists from us, not the other way around. And I can understand this, as hurtful as it is sometimes.
So my first question I'd want answered is "do you hug clients." And then I might ask for one.
Therapy is so, so, so hard.
Hang in there.
Posted by annierose on June 1, 2006, at 19:18:05
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it? » annierose, posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 13:20:19
I remember a few months ago, you were comtemplating adding an additional session each week. Have you made a decision? I do know financially it can be a strain. My insurance is due to run out sometime over the summer and I keep having inner dialogues with myself to figure out what will I do. My brain has yet to come to a reasonable decision since winning the lottery won't happen (I do not buy tickets), and the chances of me finding a treasure is never going to happen. But I really love going 3x per week.
I do remember when he called you. That was so wonderful. He is a keeper!! No wonder you want more from him, and to know more about him. But then he wouldn't/couldn't be your T anymore. This special relationship you have would change suddenly. Don't get me wrong, I have those same yearnings wanting something more from her. But what would I lose if that happened? One of the questions I recently asked her regarding a similar discussion, "I know we could never have lunch together, or be friends, but would I be the type of person you would want to have lunch with, or get to know?" And without a second hesitation, she simply answered, "Yes, without a doubt." That warmed my heart.
I'm netural on the hug issue. I do think a hug can be just a hug. When I went through my divorce (remember the starter marriage?) I saw a therapist who would hug me on occasion. I'm not a person who likes to be touched, but I tolerated it, and knew she meant well, and it was appropriate (not icky or anything). Often, I think the "no hugging" policy has more to do with protecting the therapist from any future law suits if the theraputic relationship sours.
I'm doing good. Thanks for asking.
Annierose
Posted by fallsfall on June 2, 2006, at 17:43:03
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it? ? fallsfall, posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 13:32:14
I think your response is really fine. My post basically said "Maybe this is something you should accept and try to see the good side of" Your response was "I don't WANT to". That's perfectly valid. You don't need to apologize for feeling that way. My response was a bit simplistic. Obviously, it just isn't that simple.
So don't apologize for your feelings, and I won't apologize for mine. And we can talk it out. I like talking with you.
Falls.
Posted by fairywings on June 3, 2006, at 16:12:53
In reply to Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 1:03:47
I admire you for being so open with your T. Sometimes it's so hard to ask questions like that...it feels kind of vulnerable. So, do you talk about babble - I mean does your T know it's "Babble"?
My T and I don't talk too much about "how it would feel to..." ...we talk about "how is it to..." I think maybe because I'm kind of out of touch with myself. He shares things with me about himself - it makes it more real for me, like maybe I could actually have a close relationship with someone sometime. Since I have trouble relating I think it's good for me, but it does make me feel more deficient sometimes ...because I admire him so much - like you said, I want to be more like him. You didn't say this, but I want to be more like him, and less like me. He says he's modeling good behavior, so I guess it's a good thing that I want to be more like him.
My T hugged me once....I was really taken by surprise, but it was such a nice gesture. The issue of hugs had come up on babble just before that...so it was on my mind anyway - wondering how it would feel. I remember him asking, I remember afterward, but I don't remember much about the actual hug. It was very special to me....like some of the really nice things he's said, or the special feelings I get.
I'm glad he hugged me when he did....maybe he wouldn't now because of some of the things that have come up recently. LOL I think I'll bring it up and see what he says. Your post, and the replies, have been real food for thought - which is so much better for me than the ice cream I was thinking about having! ; )
fw
Posted by All Done on June 10, 2006, at 0:36:42
In reply to Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by All Done on May 31, 2006, at 1:03:47
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread. I guess I've just been avoiding talking about *anything*.
Go figure.
Posted by All Done on June 10, 2006, at 0:40:30
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it?, posted by Dinah on May 31, 2006, at 13:40:07
> I have to confess that I see no particular purpose in fostering an obsession in a client by refusing to give a hug and making it into a huge deal instead of something that, in this area at least, is often a social nicety. (I hate that!)
>
> But I guess I can assume it's because I don't understand the overlaying meanings that a hug can bring.
>
> What if it wasn't any big deal? What if was? What if you picked up some unpleasant odor that might affect your opinion of your therapist?
>
> I guess there might be more to a hug than just a hug.
>
> But maybe there isn't.I agree that I don't see a purpose in fostering an obsession in a client. The thing is, I can't bring myself to actually ask him anything. I'm afraid that a hug would be too big of a deal for me. Or, it would end up being nothing...disappointing.
I told my T a while ago that I was afraid a hug would be too loaded (with emotions, feelings, whatever) for me. I think I'm just making it worse. :(
Posted by All Done on June 10, 2006, at 0:52:16
In reply to My Therapist's Answer, posted by Daisym on June 1, 2006, at 0:33:08
> He said, "usually, but not always." "Depends"
>
> And then he sort of grinned and said, "not very helpful, am I?" Nope!But I think he's probably right. :-)
> Together we tried to sort through the external issue of wanting something (I did NOT use hugs as an example) and the internal issue of why I might want something. Like, I know talking about my childhood has been disruptive in so many ways and it may well have been better left alone -- not discussed. But internally there was a need to share it with someone.Once you discover the internal need, it doesn't make the external need go away, though, does it?
> But I agree with Dinah. It is so true of human beings that the forbidden becomes the obsession. And I've never believed that one size fits all. The one thing I do know is that many of the "rules" of therapy are to protect therapists from us, not the other way around. And I can understand this, as hurtful as it is sometimes.
>
> So my first question I'd want answered is "do you hug clients." And then I might ask for one.
>
> Therapy is so, so, so hard.
> Hang in there.Thanks, Daisy. It's too hard right now. I managed to ask him if he has a policy about contact after termination (not because I'm terminating anytime soon, of course). He said he doesn't think he has any "policies" other than working with the client to make sure therapy is beneficial...blah, blah, blah. It would have been the perfect opportunity to ask about hugs, but I couldn't get myself to do it.
Posted by All Done on June 10, 2006, at 1:05:18
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it? » All Done, posted by annierose on June 1, 2006, at 19:18:05
> I remember a few months ago, you were comtemplating adding an additional session each week. Have you made a decision? I do know financially it can be a strain. My insurance is due to run out sometime over the summer and I keep having inner dialogues with myself to figure out what will I do. My brain has yet to come to a reasonable decision since winning the lottery won't happen (I do not buy tickets), and the chances of me finding a treasure is never going to happen. But I really love going 3x per week.
I'm going twice a week every other week and once on the "off" weeks. It's working out pretty well.
How many sessions will you have to cut back to? Sorry your insurance is running out. I know I get 30 visits a year, so I got him to agree to bill insurance every other Saturday and I pay in full the other times. That way, it doesn't all hit my bank account at the end of the year.
> I do remember when he called you. That was so wonderful. He is a keeper!! No wonder you want more from him, and to know more about him. But then he wouldn't/couldn't be your T anymore. This special relationship you have would change suddenly. Don't get me wrong, I have those same yearnings wanting something more from her. But what would I lose if that happened? One of the questions I recently asked her regarding a similar discussion, "I know we could never have lunch together, or be friends, but would I be the type of person you would want to have lunch with, or get to know?" And without a second hesitation, she simply answered, "Yes, without a doubt." That warmed my heart.
That was so nice of her. I can see how it would feel so good to hear.
It kind of feels like there are two beautifully wrapped presents under the Christmas tree. I get to open one and it's a lovely gift. More than I could have ever imagined. But now, I can't open the other one. It looks just as nice and I get hints that I might like it even better, but I can't even peek. Curiosity killed the cat, I suppose.
Sigh...they need to invent a new profession. How about a Therafriend?
> I'm netural on the hug issue. I do think a hug can be just a hug. When I went through my divorce (remember the starter marriage?) I saw a therapist who would hug me on occasion. I'm not a person who likes to be touched, but I tolerated it, and knew she meant well, and it was appropriate (not icky or anything). Often, I think the "no hugging" policy has more to do with protecting the therapist from any future law suits if the theraputic relationship sours.Right. I know it's there to protect them. I just haven't run into that boundary wall so hard until now.
> I'm doing good. Thanks for asking.
>
> AnnieroseI'm glad to hear that. :-)
Posted by All Done on June 10, 2006, at 1:07:26
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it? » All Done, posted by fallsfall on June 2, 2006, at 17:43:03
Posted by All Done on June 10, 2006, at 1:19:19
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it? » All Done, posted by fairywings on June 3, 2006, at 16:12:53
> I admire you for being so open with your T. Sometimes it's so hard to ask questions like that...it feels kind of vulnerable. So, do you talk about babble - I mean does your T know it's "Babble"?
Thanks. The more I tell him, the easier it gets (umm...for the most part). He knows I post on a message board for mental health. I tell him about specific posts and I refer to my friends, but he doesn't know it's "Babble". At least, not the last time I asked him. It was a while ago. He may have figured it out by now, if he wanted to.
> My T and I don't talk too much about "how it would feel to..." ...we talk about "how is it to..." I think maybe because I'm kind of out of touch with myself. He shares things with me about himself - it makes it more real for me, like maybe I could actually have a close relationship with someone sometime. Since I have trouble relating I think it's good for me, but it does make me feel more deficient sometimes ...because I admire him so much - like you said, I want to be more like him. You didn't say this, but I want to be more like him, and less like me. He says he's modeling good behavior, so I guess it's a good thing that I want to be more like him.I wonder if, as you get more in touch with yourself, you'll find there are things about *you* that you admire. :-)
> My T hugged me once....I was really taken by surprise, but it was such a nice gesture. The issue of hugs had come up on babble just before that...so it was on my mind anyway - wondering how it would feel. I remember him asking, I remember afterward, but I don't remember much about the actual hug. It was very special to me....like some of the really nice things he's said, or the special feelings I get.
>
> I'm glad he hugged me when he did....maybe he wouldn't now because of some of the things that have come up recently. LOL I think I'll bring it up and see what he says. Your post, and the replies, have been real food for thought - which is so much better for me than the ice cream I was thinking about having! ; )
>
> fwHave you discussed it with him, yet? It sounds like you have a very caring T.
When you do bring it up, I'll have a bowl of ice cream waiting for you. :-)
(((((fairywings)))))
Posted by fairywings on June 10, 2006, at 7:18:55
In reply to Re: Is it always more important to talk about it? » fairywings, posted by All Done on June 10, 2006, at 1:19:19
>>The more I tell him, the easier it gets (umm...for the most part).
LOL I'm glad it gets easier....for the most part. ; ) we've only talked about things I feel really vulnerable about a handful of times, but he is really nice.
I plan to talk to him this week about the hug, but I hope he doesn't hug me again....right now the ice cream isn't making me feel very good about myself....I need more self control.
(((Thanks AD)))
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