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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 16:15:35
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by annierose on November 12, 2005, at 14:21:11
I guess each therapist has different ideas of what boundaries will work best for them, but I've spent quite a bit of time curled up on the couch- he still hears me! Perhaps yours would prefer that you talk about how much you want to, rather than actually doing it. I'm glad mine welcomes these non-verbal ways of expressing things, but we are always starting with those, and ending up with feelings and words- words especially, and interactions between us
Posted by daisym on November 12, 2005, at 17:38:30
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 10:55:39
Two questions:
Do you think this work would be different if you were working with a woman? (Or, Annie -- with a man?)My transference has been all over the map, mostly maternal/paternal but the past 6 months much more partner oriented. Not necessarily sexual, but physically wanted to be comforted and definately wanting him in my life outside of the office.
And yet -- I totally get what Annie said by the "secret life" concept. If anyone saw me in therapy, they would be just shocked at the transformation from competent and capable to sobbing and suicidal. It isn't that I've been able to hide the depression completely, my friends and family are well aware I'm struggling. But no one knows how much I see my therapist, how important therapy is and why it is such a life line. I think my secretary thinks I'm having an affair because when my therapist calls, (most Fridays), I shut my door and talk for long periods of time.
The other question is whether this work is easier or harder with parents who are living or dead. One of the most painful things is the change in the relationship I have with my mom. I don't trust myself to not blurt out right now, "where were you!?" I don't want to hurt her and I can't think of anything good that would come of telling her right now. It is too old and what is done is done. My dad lives far from me so I can keep my distance pretty well. But we had rebuilt a relationship over the past 20 years and I miss him. And I hate him at the exact same time.
My therapist gets to have all these emotions thrown at him right now -- "I miss you" "I hate this" "I don't know what good it does to tell you all this." I can totally see the transference, but I still can't help it. It feels like it is about him. I even said Thursday, "sometimes I wish I'd never met you" -- and I cried so hard I couldn't breathe. He just waits and says, "tell me why you are crying" and we talk about how alone I feel and how much I want to be with him. He acknowledges how painful my feelings are for him sometimes - he actually asked me if I wished I was working with a woman. Which is why I guess I'm asking you guys if you think it would make a difference...
Lucky for me he knows me well enough to call a few hour later just to say, "I'm OK with what you said and how you feel about me. I'm not put off and you can't push me away with all of this. And I didn't ask about working with a woman because I think you need to change. I think you are doing exactly what you need to right now." It only took 5 minutes but I bet it saved me from hours of agonizing over that session.
I guess this is me, having a very intense experience!
Posted by daisym on November 12, 2005, at 17:53:02
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing..., posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 16:08:45
***My analyst and I comfort the other states together now, as well as inquire all the time for things we don't know yet.***
Pfinstegg, would you mind sharing more about how you do this? I can move from one state to another and I can interpret for a state. I've had dreams about states interacting. But mostly the younger parts want to talk directly to my therapist, or write down their experiences, especially if I cave and give myself over to it fully. I've been afraid of doing that lately because I end up demanding these irrational things, like, "where were you?!" and I'm mortified.
I can't begin to comfort these parts. I'm too busy defending them right now.
Posted by Annierose on November 12, 2005, at 19:58:15
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing..., posted by daisym on November 12, 2005, at 17:38:30
I do think in some ways it would be harder for me if I was working with a man. I love my T enough already, so why add in a sexual component, because I do think I would be flirtatious with a male T. I guess what I'm trying to say, it's hard enough handling my feelings of love for my T, let alone wishing I could seduce him.
Both of my parents are living as well. I do see them on occasion, but they have no genuine feelings for me. When friends and babblers talk about their parents and the qualities they miss in them, I am hard pressed to come up with one thing I would miss about either one of my parents.
Also, the transference, it just messes up my mind. It does feel it is about them. Daisy, you are much further along your journey than I am. I'm just beginning to share all these intense feelings with my T, the "I miss you", "I hate this", "I just you could comfort me", "You don't really care" ... I do HATE it!! I feel like such a fool, and I worry what she thinks (yes, I do share that with her). I still feel it.
Yes, Pfinstegg's therapist would be happy that I am having a very intense experience too. Does that mean we are working really hard? Does that mean we are really messed up? Are we over-thinking everything? YIKERS ... I just don't like the place I am in right now. Back to middle school, feel awkward and all alone (coincidentally, my daughter just started middle school and I do believe it's what put me back there).
My T is taking the week of Thanksgiving off and I'm already worrying about that. My husband is being extra supportive these past few weeks. He knows I've been out of sorts.
Daisy your T is so responsive to you, it's amazing. It was nice that he called and reassured you. My T would never call me unless I asked her to. I often wish she would reach out to me when she knows I am going through a particularly rough patch.
We will get through this. It just takes lots of time. And we are lucky we have wonderful therapists in our lives (even if I get mad at mine from time to time).
Posted by Annierose on November 12, 2005, at 22:10:19
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » annierose, posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 16:15:35
I don't think my T would mind if I did curl myself into a ball, or switched to the other chair. I just felt so uncomfortable to move anywhere, I kindof froze straight and hid my face with my sweater. Oh, the views she gets from her side of the room.
I want to matter.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 9:23:59
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on November 12, 2005, at 17:53:02
Well, he has been gradually teaching me to comfort them,and to let them know that the adult me understands their pain, fear and longing. He said once, "I think that it's not possible for me to do it alone; there are so many times when you aren't here with me, and your parts are despairing or terrified- at those times, they will be very grateful if you let them know you understand and care." I really wanted HIM to do it all, but, in fact, it does work at least to an extent. It's as if the analysis is going on in my head all the time. Mine also doesn't call, or encourage calls, so I have to rely on my own resources when I'm not with him. I think the dedication of your therapist to calling and keeping in touch on Fridays and weekends is so remarkable. It must be quite rare, too.
As to having a male or female, I'm not sure if it matters too much. Mine is very tall and handsome, and I initially did have sexual feelings for him. But, as the work progressed, my own underlying parts' needs and desires, which are so much more childlike and asexual, came to predominate, and the adult sexual longings became far less important, and only appear occasionally. I wouldn't get too far with any flirting, because he wouldn't do it back, but would ask me to free associate to it all!
I actually prefer working with a man- at least this particular man- although I have both maternal and paternal transferences to him. I can easily imagine working successfully with a woman if she understood ego state disorders as well as mine does.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 9:49:24
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 12, 2005, at 22:10:19
You obviously do matter a lot to her. But there must be parts of you who don't know that yet. That seems to be a major part of therapy for us: finding and expressing those parts who feel so terrified, unloved and alone, and bringing them into the sessions so that they can interact with our therapists, and learn that they, too, are cared about and understood. For those parts, they will feel that that IS love. I think a lot of the very regressive things I do, like curling up in a ball, or hiding behind the couch, is a bodily way of bringing the feelings of those most lonely terrified parts into the sessions. Then they can begin to, first, feel their feelings, and then express them in words- very simple, brief words if it is a young part.
It's just in the past year that I have felt free enough to do this. I think the art therapy helped a lot in bringing out and validating the younger parts. We (the art therapist and I) began spending a lot of time actually doing play therapy with dolls, clay, etc.- that also helped a lot to bring out the youngest and most primitive feelings. I have stopped doing it, for now, because the cost, and time, just became too much.
You both have parents who are still alive. Mine are dead, but, if they were still alive, I would have loved to discuss all of the abuse with them-sexual, physical and emotional. Not in the sense of confronting them angrily, but in the sense of inquiry- needing and wanting to know just what happened. I know they would both have been full of denial, and very defensive, but anything i could have learned- for example, from their body language- would have been helpful to me, in trying to move past the "knowing and not knowing". For you both, you may have been able to answer most of those questions already in your own minds.
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2005, at 10:01:44
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 12, 2005, at 22:10:19
You want to matter to your therapist?
Oh, I could tell you so many ways you matter. But I'm not quite sure of the context you're referring to.
I'm pretty sure that your therapist knows you well enough that you matter very much to her, as you do to us. It may not be the therapeutic ideal of distance, but I think that's what makes some of our therapists so healing to us. That they convey that we do matter to them.
I wonder if there's a formal therapy system out there that understands that?
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 10:33:56
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Annierose, posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 9:49:24
Yes. There's so much intensity packed into just this one thread that my T. would be thrilled, and, I believe, would be very confident that everyone is really going to get better! He's a Supervising and Training Psychoanalyst in our city, with a lot of younger psychoanalysts in training with him, so I trust a lot that what he emphasizes is important. And he's had 32 years of experience as an analyst to find out what works and what doesn't. When I found him, I told him how glad I was- and that I so wished that I had found him earlier. He said, "in a way I wish you had, too, but I might not have known enough earlier to treat you (your ego state disorder) effectively". So, the right person at the right time!
Posted by Annierose on November 13, 2005, at 15:17:45
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Annierose, posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 9:49:24
Thank you Pfinstegg for beginning this tread. Yes, I do believe it's an intense thread, but it has helped me put words to feelings that I hadn't found the words for yet.
I remembered reading last year (I believe) when you began art therapy ... so interesting. It certainly does sound like your younger parts had a chance to express themselves through play and art.
I cried when I read your reply: "You obviously do matter a lot to her." This is my struggle. And I will definitely bring this tread up tomorrow. Thank you for saying that. I'm feeling better. I hope this discussion has helped you as well.
As for my parents, it's so mixed up right now. I don't believe they are capable of having any type of conversation that would involve real emotions or ideas. They live on the surface, "as if" we are a close family. Nothing is there but an occasional phone about what they are doing for dinner, the movie they saw last night and various medical complaints. They don't even interact with their grandchildren. Very sad for all. I think my T would like some type of dialogue to happen before they die ... she has recently began asking if I can imagine trying to have a conversation with them. I can't.
Posted by Annierose on November 13, 2005, at 15:25:17
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Annierose, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2005, at 10:01:44
Yes, I do want to matter to my therapist. I know she cares about me, but do I matter, as a person? When she goes about her daily life outside the office, does she ever come across something, a book, a movie and think, "Annie would like this." And as I wrote that sentence I remembered she saw the movie "June Bug" and told me she thought I would like the movie, that I probably could identify with one of the characters. So of course I went to see the movie. But even my dsyfunctional family wasn't that cold. Since I own a business, is she ever curious about going there (when she knows I'm away)?
By the way, I hope you had another solid session with your T today. At least you didn't have to wait as long to see him, but a week is still a long time inbetween in therapy-time. I understand that completely.
Thank you for your support. It really helped me today. I really needed it.
Posted by antigua on November 13, 2005, at 17:10:15
In reply to Knowing and not knowing..., posted by Pfinstegg on November 11, 2005, at 20:22:50
I'm so late to this post, but yes, I can feel the same way. I know it happened to the six year old, but secretly I know it didn't. Until I go through it as that young girl, I will never believe it. Just me, although rationally there is no doubt it is true. I'm just not fully able to face it yet, but I will with time, or find a safe way to live w/o consciously knowing.
I've found that there are so many layers that cover up the abuse (the defense and the belief systems, and the denials) that I'm just slowly peeling away the layers until I am at a point that I can truly feel it and accept it. There are many things I know that happened, but the heart of it is still out there.
Once I hid behind the chair and made her turn the lights off, but I couldn't really talk like I wanted to--maybe I will try again when I'm stronger.
After feeling so good about understanding about being rejected by my father, and what that did to my self-esteem, etc., I now feel like I'm mourning and letting go. Letting go of that vision I have of that one kind, caring father so I can get to see the fuller picture.
I did catch myself the other day, though, watching my older inner girl (the angry, nine year old) actually reaching out to the really hurt little one, picking her up off the floor, cutting her hair, bathing the yuck off of her and giving her nice, new clean pajamas, painting the wall in her room to yellow from the dreary off white and reading her a wonderful bedtime story. Very much like I would have done for my younger brother. I gave him the nurturing I needed for my own, but I'm glad I did--cause now I can see that I needed it too.
I don't rage or cry. I wish I could. I will someday.
You are doing so great Pfinstegg and I know how hard it is.
best to you, and all the other babblers who are suffering,
antigua
Posted by daisym on November 13, 2005, at 17:24:11
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 13, 2005, at 15:17:45
Do you think therapists think we must have those conversations to ever fully heal? I wonder sometimes. I bring it up occasionally -- wondering what it would be like to talk about it. My sister did and got shot down completely and fully. My mom didn't believe her (she asked me, a year ago when she told me, why would she say such a thing?) and my dad denied it fully. My sister says she was "just" touched a lot -- of course she was only 5 when he moved away. I still feel bad that I couldn't jump in and back her up -- but no one told me all this took place until last year.
I ask "why did this happen?" a lot -- and my therapist commented that perhaps I need to let go of wanting to know why because it was an intellectual exercise that still keeps me from fully feeling it all. And there is no real answer anyway, is there?
Posted by daisym on November 13, 2005, at 17:28:32
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... Trigger » Pfinstegg, posted by antigua on November 13, 2005, at 17:10:15
I like the imagine of yellow walls...
You sound like you are on the right track and really doing well. Grieving is hard though, it makes you feel wrung out all the time. Letting go is harder still, I think.
I wish my nine year old could do something besides rail and cry. She comforts no one, not even herself. It makes it hard to talk about this period of time. I can't even write it down right now.
Maybe we need an art party for everyone?
Posted by daisym on November 13, 2005, at 17:41:09
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 9:23:59
I guess in order to comfort them I need to develop some compassion, because right now I just get upset that all of this is so disruptive to both work and to my life. It feels like an internal war going on a lot. The adult just doesn't want to need therapy this much. And occasionally I think I'd like my therapist to see my more competent side, I'm not always so pathetic! He says he knows that but I'm not so sure.
I think I know what you mean about the analysis going on in your head even without your therapist. I can do this now and phone contact is much less than it use to be. I know I can call if I want or need to, but I usually can wait until I see him. The past few weeks have intensified the need to touch base again and he says he is just fine with that. It is frustrating because I thought I was past that stage. And he is clear sometimes that he wants to hear from me to alliviate his own anxiety about my safety -- with medication changes and other stressors I've been mood swinging wildly again.
I think I'm going to ask him tomorrow if anyone sits any place other than the couch or chair. I don't usually want to sit anywhere else, I want to get up and pace around. I still can't imagine lying down -- I'm just not that brave.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 14, 2005, at 12:33:28
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 13, 2005, at 15:17:45
I'm so glad you feel better- me, too! It's such a hard thing to deal with, and it's wonderful to share so much understanding and support with all the people who have responded. All the "regressive" things I've done (art and play therapy, finding special places in his office) have had the effect of enabling me to bring my youngest and most primitive parts more easily into the therapy- just the parts who were most hurt, and have the most need to be there.
I do think your therapist has a good point in asking you to think about talking to your parents. They won't be any different, and will try to make you feel as you did when you were a child, but it may make YOU feel better- freer, honest and more in charge of your own life. But it sounds as if you have time on that.
I wish us both(really, all of us) a very intense and valuable week in therapy!
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 14, 2005, at 12:47:10
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... Trigger » Pfinstegg, posted by antigua on November 13, 2005, at 17:10:15
That was so great- how your nine-year old comforted your younger, wounded self- and all the healing and constructive things she thought of to do.
I think getting from bodily feelings to emotions to words is awfully hard- it's the real work that we are all doing. I know I have to respect that, while "I" might want to talk freely, and feel very safe, the 6-year old thinks it's much safer to stay silent. We (analyst included) are all constantly negotiating about what is safe and what isn't. There are days (today was one) when the younger parts were there, but were extremely wary and cautious. It took the whole session to help them feel just a bit safer. I have a huge, hidden part which tells them not to tell anything to anyone, and, since we are both trying to respect all the parts, we have to respect that one also.
I wish you what I wish myself and everyone: a week of therapy in which we feel and dare just a bit more, so that it feels valuable and growth-promoting to each of us.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 14, 2005, at 12:55:14
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on November 13, 2005, at 17:41:09
Well, Daisy, I'm not on the couch either, because my ego strength is shakier and more regressed than it was, and I'm better off being able to look at him- at least for now. But AnnieRose is finding the couch really helpful.
I do think those wishes- to hide (in my case), or to walk around (in your case) deserve attention. They may be your unconscious' way of attempting to express itself more. It might be interesting to see how your therapist reacts if you bring it up; he seems to be very flexible and "up" for whatever happens.
Posted by Annierose on November 14, 2005, at 17:37:33
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Annierose, posted by Pfinstegg on November 14, 2005, at 12:33:28
I wasn't sure if it was okay to post this here, but it pertained to my above angst, so I hope it's okay.
I was extremely agitated today in session. I could barely stay still. I did ask her if I mattered right off. And she reassured me that I did matter, several times. It didn't feel enough. She told me that she liked working with me, I asked "why?" She replied, "I like you. I feel like I can help you. I want you to live your life without your past burdening you (something like that). I feel like I can hold your hand and help you cross that divide." She really tried.
I keep pushing back. When she tried to reach me with psychological terms, I stopped her in mid-sentence, "Don't even go there. When you sterlize this relationship with clinical terms I just hate it. I want to know if you think of me outside this office, if I am a human in your life, not just an appointment slot." I think I surprised her in some ways with all my angst. She responded to all of it in a calm voice, sometimes trying to use humor, sometimes trying to reasssure me. She said, "I'm not a robot. Of course I have feelings. I couldn't work this closely with you and not care. And yes, I do think of you in my real life, outside this office." She seems to want to know where all of this is coming from, the "why now?" questions. I don't know. She wanted to know if her upcoming vacation bothered me, and I told her I'm always worried when we don't see each other. I think it only bothers me more because I am going through such a rough patch right now.
I feel like I tried to beat her up today. I felt bad. I called a few hours later and left an apology on her machine. I let her know that I was sorry for my behavior, and I am committed to working through this with her. And I know we will get there together. But I guess a part of me is holding back. And I wish she could just reach out and pull me through to the other side.
Thank you to everyone who helped me this past weekend.
Posted by Annierose on November 14, 2005, at 18:01:34
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Annierose, posted by daisym on November 13, 2005, at 17:24:11
Daisy -
In the midst of my wallowing, I think I missed this reply.
Have you and your sister ever spoken about "it" since? Even though you weren't able to back her up then, I imagine if you were able to have that conversation with just her, now, it could be healing for the both of you. Of course, I don't know what your relationship is with her. Knowing that even at age 5 she remembers being touched must help your adult self feel for little Dasiy, help her know that this isn't something she pulled out of thin air.
I don't think one can ever fully answer the question of "why" except your father. And it does sound from your posts, that denial has served him well. I would feel rage towards my mother as well. It's such a complicated and terribly sad outrage you lived through. And you did live through it.
Now my T would say that we have to put words to it and look at it from all angles, again and again. So that we own our past, instead of living in fear from it. Not an easy step. But I think we will get there.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 14, 2005, at 18:36:58
In reply to Re: Today's session ... update » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 14, 2005, at 17:37:33
What you went through today sounds very familiar, to me, and also sounds like a frightened, wounded early part trying to make a connection, and to seek reassurance. You probably don't feel so good right now ( I don't think you needed to apologize, though, for expressing your true feelings), but what you are describing sounds like the real work of therapy. Your T. did give very heartfelt and reassuring responses, but there might be a part of you which finds it impossible to believe that she really means it. It certainly sounds like she does, though!
Your session sounds very similiar to mine, today! My T. doesn't actually give as many reassurancs as yours does, but he does always seem pleased, and very much with me, when these early parts come out with all of their (our) fears and longings. I am finding that the sessions themselves are awfully hard, but that, afterwards, I gradually begin to feel better and more confident. No matter how painful, I've learned that when my different ego states get to express themselves, I am going to feel better- not right then, but later. At first, it was weeks later, but now it's more like a few hours.
I don't think you need to feel ashamed, or apologize, for anything you felt or said- it was from a real part of you.
Posted by Annierose on November 14, 2005, at 19:17:14
In reply to Re: Today's session ... update » Annierose, posted by Pfinstegg on November 14, 2005, at 18:36:58
It's interesting what you said. My T did ask me how have I been feeling after I leave our sessions, "don't you feel better a little while afterwards?". I told her it varies with the session. Sometimes I can feel good an hour or so later, and then the lonliness and over-whelming feelings sink in later.
And you are right. There is a huge part of me that has a difficult time believing what she is saying.
We'll get there.
Posted by antigua on November 14, 2005, at 20:05:58
In reply to Re: Today's session ... update » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 14, 2005, at 19:17:14
When I'm being my most difficult toward my T, I just throw it in her face that this is just her job, she doesn't really care about me. It makes her mad, I can see it, so I probably do it to provoke the reaction, but whatever she answers can never fill the need I have to hear from her about what I mean to her, what I should have meant to my mother but she never reciprocated.
antigua
Posted by Annierose on November 14, 2005, at 21:03:12
In reply to Re: Today's session ... update » Annierose, posted by antigua on November 14, 2005, at 20:05:58
Our therapists can never turn back time, but I do believe (even though right now I am in a contrary state) that we can work through this hurt, emptiness, label it whatever ... with our therapists. I don't want her to be my mother. Heck, I don't even want my mother to be my mother!! But I do want and hope that by talking about this pain again and again, putting words to the feelings (this is what is so hard for me right now) that eventually, my therapist and I will diminish the effects my past haunts me.
My T told me today,"You have put me in a catch 22. You're hoping I'll react as a friend, but then I can't be your therapist." And I really need her to be my therapist forever and ever! (i.e. even when I quit, she will always be my therapist ... so I can reach out when my next crisis arrives).
Posted by daisym on November 17, 2005, at 0:53:02
In reply to Re: Today's session ... update » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 14, 2005, at 17:37:33
Annie,
I'm just getting back to this today. I'm finding that I am having a tough time right now, feeling too young to write and then wanting to write tons and tons.
My sister told me last fall about her abuse. She sort of dropped it on me during a phone call. She blamed me - since I was so much older (9 yrs)--she said I should have protected her. I was too devastated to do much except listen. She doesn't know about me -- I've been busy supporting her. I just can't tell her, too much guilt about it all. If I'd told she might have been saved. Her rage at me is similiar to mine at my mom. I was very much her mother and still am. She emails often now but has dropped out of therapy. She said it was too hard. She used a lot of drugs in her teens and twenties so she has an arrested development at about 16. Emotionally she is very much a teenager.
I'm sorry you had a rough session but it does sound productive. I think we sometimes need to retest the connection before we can move to the next level, whatever that is. It is hard to take in the reassurance when we feel so incredibly needy. My therapist tells me often that it is OK to be mad at him for being unavailable at times. Separation anxiety is absolutely the worst!
I hope the rest of your week is better.
Hugs from me,
Daisy
This is the end of the thread.
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