![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by antigua on October 26, 2005, at 10:28:47
In reply to Re: The Hug I can't have » antigua, posted by B2chica on October 26, 2005, at 10:20:11
Interesting thought. I know I let my husband hold my anger for me, but I never thought of handing over the innocence. I'll have to think about it. All I do know is that my T has described the impossible for me, and that makes me feel hopeful in one way because if I can identify it maybe I can deal with it. On the other hand, it makes me feel hopeless, knowing I can never have what I want. But I guess I knew that anyway.
antigu
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 11:04:57
In reply to The Hug I can't have, posted by antigua on October 26, 2005, at 9:51:33
> My T said something really interesting to me today that I thought I would run by you guys. In my case, she says the hug I want so desperatly from a man is the desire to be told that everything will be o.k., and that I think that will return me to that state of innocence before the abuse. I can never go back to my state of innocence, but it's what I want she says, and in my mind that is what I equate with the hug. What do you think?
I think that’s really interesting. It’s certainly a very similar thing to my desire for a hug from a man. I think for me there’s also something about reassurance that men can be safe and loving… that masculinity isn’t inherently perverted and destructive.
Of course I don’t *actually* think that masculinity is inherently perverted and destructive, but at some level I’m still a little afraid…
It’s true that you can’t go back to your state of innocence before the abuse. But although everything can’t be perfect, it can improve. I think your therapist’s idea makes a lot of sense.
I remember the first time I talked to my therapist about being raped. That evening I went to see a friend and her husband. And of course I’d been feeling pretty emotional all day, but hadn’t talked about it to anyone. When I arrived at their house, her husband opened the door and hugged me and it was just about the best hug I’ve ever had. It was the nearest thing I could imagine to the hug I wanted, maybe because of how I was feeling that day. It didn’t make everything go away, but it was three seconds of safety that were completely wonderful.
I hope you find a hug like that soon.
Tamar
Posted by Shortelise on October 26, 2005, at 11:32:31
In reply to Re: The Hug I can't have » B2chica, posted by antigua on October 26, 2005, at 10:28:47
Antigua, I can't possibly write the conversation I'd love to have with you about this. This forum stuff is great, but sometimes I wish I could sit down with some writers here and have a long afternoon's discussion.
I am hesitating, have come back to the top here to write a bit of a warning, but I have written what I have because ... I think it might help.
You probably know this, but I'll say it anyway: we go to these T's, vomit out everything, and hope they can help us connect the dots. Sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are right. A good T is right more often than she is wrong. A very good T helps those of us who are able get to a place where we can see the truths clearly for ourselves.
I need things pointed out to me for the most part. I have a very good T.
My point is this: try it on for size.A hug is innocent love. It's safe. I hug you because I care about you, I hug you because I want to show you in a safe, physical way that I care about you. A hug from me is a warm, caring, physical show of affection and it's a soft, warm, safe and accepting place to be.
To want that from a father figure after your father abused you, well, could be a restoration of innocence or a reassurance that such innocent things can exist for you.
That you would allow yourself to be hugged by a father figure and NOT be abused, could that reaffirm that your vulnerability was not the cause of the abuse, but was the choice of your abuser? That sort of proves your innocence, which might still need proving in your mind. That's a shot in the dark, and is so very personal that I half want to delete it, but it might be helpful to think about.
There are several men in my life (I am a 50 year old married woman) who would be happy to give me a long, safe, affectionate hug. And I wouldn't hesitate to ask. What you want is not some mad desire, some unrealistic thing: it's a nice hug from somone who cares about you. You want to see how it feels. I think you deserve to.
((antigua))
Posted by antigua on October 26, 2005, at 11:49:50
In reply to csa trigger? » antigua, posted by Shortelise on October 26, 2005, at 11:32:31
Thank you for writing, I'm sorry if it was hard, but it was very helpful. I do have someone in mind for that hug, but I don't know if he will give it to me. Risking to ask for it opens up fear of rejection and what all that means about me if he is unwilling (which he may be very unwilling, I think that's what I'm preparing for). Also, if he rejects the hug, it means I'm not all those things that an innocent hug would provide, the things you just wrote about.
best,
antigua
Posted by antigua on October 26, 2005, at 14:13:53
In reply to Re: csa trigger? » Shortelise, posted by antigua on October 26, 2005, at 11:49:50
My T may be part right, about me wanting to return to the innocent state, but it doesn't explain the sexual feelings that I have associated w/the hug. I'll have to ask her that next time.
antigua
Posted by allisonross on October 26, 2005, at 14:15:05
In reply to csa trigger? » antigua, posted by Shortelise on October 26, 2005, at 11:32:31
> Hi, Antigua, and big hugs to you. i am new here.....you are a wonderful writer and I should know; I have written my memoir [Ghost Child to Triumph--from a child with no voice, to someone who speaks up against injustice); have a publisher interested....well, enuff about me, LOL (for the whole sordid story: www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com (voted out of a 31-year church membership, after getting a divorce after 31 years of verbal/some physical....abuse...www.psychiatricjournal.com...entitled: The Transcendent Child on overcoming Verbal and Spiritual Abuse; I am (gulp) 59, but I feel 18 and act like it!! Antigua, I can't possibly write the conversation I'd love to have with you about this. I would love to sit with you, and get to know YOU, you sound wonderfully intuitive, etc....This forum stuff is great, but sometimes I wish I could sit down with some writers here and have a long afternoon's discussion. Where do you live; we'll get together! Born in Heaven (Maine), now living in exile in Michigan.
>
> I am hesitating, have come back to the top here to write a bit of a warning, but I have written what I have because ... I think it might help.
>
> You probably know this, but I'll say it anyway: we go to these T's, vomit out everything, and hope they can help us connect the dots. Sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are right. A good T is right more often than she is wrong. A very good T helps those of us who are able get to a place where we can see the truths clearly for ourselves. My t taught me the most valuable words I had ever heard in my life (after a childhood of emotional, physical abuse /1 incident of molestation), and 31 years of abusive marriage, followed by 18 months of abuse from my church; he showed up like an angel at the exact moment I needed him (expert on spiritual abuse): RESTORATIVE JUSTICE: This is what you did...this is how it made me feel; so incredibly empowering to someone like me.
> I need things pointed out to me for the most part. I have a very good T. I think I have the best on the planet (and he AGREES, LOL); incredible person; taught me another word I love: "Authentic" He is.....
> My point is this: try it on for size.
>
> A hug is innocent love. It's safe. I hug you because I care about you, I hug you because I want to show you in a safe, physical way that I care about you. A hug from me is a warm, caring, physical show of affection and it's a soft, warm, safe and accepting place to be. yes, yes, couldn't have been said more beautifully; my thoughts exactly, and after a year of hugs, my t stopped; and I have been sad ever since; I think it is cruel; having the conversation with him soon (have an article that parallels my experience)
>
> To want that from a father figure after your father abused you, well, could be a restoration of innocence or a reassurance that such innocent things can exist for you. I never knew my father, and never thought much about it, then I did for the 1st time and wrote a poem, called the Fatherless Child; it is on my churchabuse website;
>
> That you would allow yourself to be hugged by a father figure and NOT be abused, could that reaffirm that your vulnerability was not the cause of the abuse, but was the choice of your abuser? That sort of proves your innocence, which might still need proving in your mind. That's a shot in the dark, and is so very personal that I half want to delete it, but it might be helpful to think about.
>
> There are several men in my life (I am a 50 year old married woman) who would be happy to give me a long, safe, affectionate hug. And I wouldn't hesitate to ask. What you want is not some mad desire, some unrealistic thing: it's a nice hug from somone who cares about you. You want to see how it feels. I think you deserve to. I read somewhere that...just for BASIC menta health, we all need about 16 hutg a day. most of us get none or 1 (I get none, and I am the touchiest, feeliest person, huggiest....I know!)...What a delight you are...what a pleasure to meet you here.....Smiles n grins, n hugs, Allison
>
> ((antigua))
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 14:32:58
In reply to csa trigger? » antigua, posted by Shortelise on October 26, 2005, at 11:32:31
I loved your post, ShortElise. It was beautiful.
Thank you for writing that.
Tamar
Posted by allisonross on October 26, 2005, at 15:13:37
In reply to Re: csa trigger? » Shortelise, posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 14:32:58
Hi....i posted a message to Angutua, and it was meant for Shortelise: It is entitled: csa trigger GROUP HUG Please..from allisonross)...please forgive the newbie?! Hugs to you both, Allison
Posted by Shortelise on October 26, 2005, at 21:58:15
In reply to Re: csa trigger? » Shortelise, posted by antigua on October 26, 2005, at 11:49:50
I am so glad my post was helpful.
You might want to be careful about who you ask for this hug. It has to be someone who is going to give it, who is not going to reject you. Don't you think you need to take careful care of that young you who is reaching out? It would be so sad for her to be rejected.
Posted by caraher on October 27, 2005, at 9:00:15
In reply to The Hug I can't have, posted by antigua on October 26, 2005, at 9:51:33
(((antigua)))
I liked Shortelise's post as well, and allisonross' reminder that hugs are a pretty normal thing to need. Whether the T is right or not about the unspoken longings behind your desire for the hug you want so badly I don't think there's any harm done in getting it!
I'm not sure just how other men feel about this, but for me hugs are a kind of touchy (no pun intended) subject, mostly because I consider myself largely hug-deprived. I have never in my life refused *anyone* a hug, but I'm not a hug-initiator. The only person I really feel I can hug just because I feel like it is my wife... well, or my sons.
It's probably not true, but I feel as if I remember pretty much every hug I've ever received outside my own family since adolescence. Hugs from men, hugs from women, hugs from children... And while none of these I would characterize as sexual in any way, I pretty much only ever find myself *wanting* (in the sense of longing or hoping for one) hugs from women. So I guess the desire to be hugged specifically by a man seems fairly natural and innocent to me, and it may have been present regardless of any past history of abuse.
When I first became depressed, when I was in high school, I distinctly remember my mother talking to me and asking what my problem was, and suggesting I see someone for help, etc. (which I refused to do). I don't remember her words. What I do remember was that main thing I wanted, but did not receive, from her at that moment was a hug. I really didn't need to hear about what I should or should not do, or how I feel and why, or any of that. I just wanted to be held. I wonder whether, if that had happened, I might have followed her advice. But the way it turned out for me was that I took her pleading to be more about the way my behavior made *her* feel than it was about her concern *for me*. I felt that she wanted me "better" not as much because she cared how I felt (I wouldn't say I thought she didn't care at all) as for the fact that my emotional condition spoiled her tidy world.
Sad to say, over 20 years later I'm still bitter about this. When she does hug me now (which she almost *never* did back when I was in high school) I always think, "Too late." Yeah, I'm a bit of a jerk about this.
Anyway, I wish I could give everyone here who needs one a real hug.
Posted by allisonross on October 27, 2005, at 12:20:21
In reply to Re: hugs in general (ramble alert!), posted by caraher on October 27, 2005, at 9:00:15
Hi! Pretty new here. I would sure like to get that hug, LOL, LOL! I am sorry about what your mother did to you. Perhaps I should take my own advice (of gettin g onesself out of onesself), and go to a nursing home, where those people are so touch-deprived.
I read somewhere that as humans, we all need at least 16 hugs a day for basic mental health.
See? So that is why we have such a crabby, angry world!
I just posted (can't find it), called: Finally Rethinking the Prohibition on touch in Psychotherapy. My eyes were opened wide, cause they said everything I have been thinking. Touch is basic to human life and healing. here is the site: www.drozur.com/touchintherapy.html
I think everyone that reads it will jump up and down and yell: Yes, yes, yes.....just common sense stuff. Every therapist should be required to have that kind of training.
If you want to read my story, I was published (amazingly) with the psychs! www.psychiatricjournal.com. Entitled: The Transcendent Child on Overcoming Verbal and Spiritual Abuse
So nice to meet you here! Here is a great big HUG from me! Allison
Posted by happyflower on October 27, 2005, at 14:04:47
In reply to Re:Caraher:hugs in general (ramble alert!), posted by allisonross on October 27, 2005, at 12:20:21
I grew up in a hugless nonemotional except hate and abuse. The only person who would hug me was my grandma from my dad's side. It felt so weird, and I didn't look forward to it at all.
But I have changed in to a huggy type of person. I guess my DH changed this in me, because I hug almost anyone I am close to or relatives. My kids are huged and told they are loved everyday. They will never fell hugs are weird or hearing they are loved, sounding foreign to them . I just wished I could be hugged now, I only get them from my kids, which is better than nothing. I would hug my T if he allowed it. It would feel good, and I told him it would. But no luck in that ever happening.
Posted by allisonross on October 27, 2005, at 14:30:40
In reply to Hugs, posted by happyflower on October 27, 2005, at 14:04:47
> Hey, sweetie: (I hope you can eventually reach me by e-mail: wacalice@aol.com) I grew up in a hugless nonemotional except hate and abuse.
I am so sorry; I experienced the same thing.
The only person who would hug me was my grandma from my dad's side. It felt so weird, and I didn't look forward to it at all.
What was weird about it?
>
> But I have changed in to a huggy type of person.Good for you! I guess I was born a huggy, kissy, touchy feely type person. In the genes ya know.
I guess my DH changed this in me, because I hug almost anyone I am close to or relatives. My kids are huged and told they are loved everyday.
I am so proud of you. I gave my kids all of the love and affection I never got. Unfortunately (they are adults and should know better), they pretty much ignore me. i know I was a fantastic mom (except for living with an abuser for 31 years)
They will never fell hugs are weird or hearing they are loved, sounding foreign to them . I just wished I could be hugged now, I only get them from my kids, which is better than nothing.
The whole world is touch-deprived.
I wish I could hug you right now, and stroke your hair, and tell you that everything was okay, and read you a story, and give you cookies and milk. My nurturing instinct, and in that way, i could nurture myself. I think that is what you are doing by loving your kids.
i read that just for basic mental health, we need at least 16 hugs a day; no wonder the world is so @!### crabby and cranky. No touching going on fer cryin out loud.
I would hug my T if he allowed it.
he is wrong, and when you read my post, and go into the site and read the article...well, at least you can point out there are different schools of thoughts in therapy; his is of the rigid "constipated" kind!
Please read my latest posting, and let your t read the article: You can when you read it, because it is common sense, jump up and down and yell: yes, yes, yes! My posting is entitled: Finally! Rethinking the Prohibition on Touch in Psychotherapy..
...every therapist should be made to read this. What is going on in the psych. world is ridiculous, because of litigation, insurance companies and the idea that a non-sexual hug will lead to wild (well, I wish it would, LOL) sex;
talks about how Western cultures sexualize everything, and how damaging it is, to NOT touch a client (judiciously of course), but with what the clients' best interests in mind.
It would feel good, and I told him it would. But no luck in that ever happening.
Maybe if he reads the article; he might re-think his position (my t has read some of it), but he hugged me for over a year, then stopped, because he said: "I don't want it to feel too good." Obviously, it felt to good to him. I've been trying to get it back, and will give him another article pretty soon. Terrible to need that human touch and be rejected,
If you'd like to read my (sordid, yet transcendent) story: www.psychiatricjournal.com. Entitled: The Transcendent Child on Overcoming Verbal and Spiritual Abuse.
My site: www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com (voted out of my 31-year church membership, because I got a divorce after 31 years of abuse), but i was born standin up and talkin back and fought them for 18 months
Please try e-mailing me again; you can let me know what your subject line will say, so I don't delete it?
Hugs and love to you dear new friend.
Allison (overcomer and wounded-healer)
Posted by antigua on October 27, 2005, at 14:46:01
In reply to Re: csa trigger? » antigua, posted by Shortelise on October 26, 2005, at 21:58:15
This was and is really important and I thank you for bringing it up. There is the guy that attends a meeting I go to occassionally, and I really like him, in a brotherly way. He's a big guy and you know what? He never refuses my request for that hug. It's a totally safe hug.
But the hug I'm seeking, I learned today I will never get so I'm just going to have to get past it. Of course it's more complicated and so much more hurtful than that, but I'm glad I realized I wouldn't get the hug before I asked. It is protecting me, right now, from being very bad to myself. The rejection is crumbling, but at least I didn't suffer the humiliation of asking for it and being rejected.
antigua
Posted by Damos on October 27, 2005, at 17:25:19
In reply to The Hug I can't have, posted by antigua on October 26, 2005, at 9:51:33
He weeps for you this child-man. Longs to cradle you in his arms and sing you sweet sad lullabies.
I'm sorry, it's just that this resonance thing grew inside me as I read each post in this thread and my heart broke in a million different ways, then the tears came.
Caraher, jeez our experiences are similar in so many ways.
Okay, this is going to be hard for me in a number of ways so can you all just form a circle or a line which ever you prefer.
(((Antigua))) - thank you
(((Allisonross))) - thank you
(((B2chica))) - thank you
(((Tamar))) - whispers very quietly - yep they are spectacular ;-) - thank you
(((Shortelise))) - thank you
Okay, deep breath, shake hands first, (((Caraher))) glad you're here mate.
(((Happyflower))) - thank you
Posted by daisym on October 27, 2005, at 18:07:20
In reply to Antigua et al., posted by Damos on October 27, 2005, at 17:25:19
How beautiful...I'm so touched. I hope my sons grow up to offer such a sweet generous gesture.
Hugs for you too!!
Daisy
Posted by antigua on October 27, 2005, at 18:43:40
In reply to The Hug I can't have, posted by antigua on October 26, 2005, at 9:51:33
Oh how right I was. No hug, just humiliation and shame at reaching out to someone I thought could and would be willing to help. How can I be so stupid to keep repeating this pattern, to keep thinking that they would actually care, or even like, me. In my heart I know that all men are not like this, but every one I reach out to (all of two, probably) rejects me. I can't believe it. I am so embarrassed to think that I took the risk and believed that someone might have cared, that I was worth something, and I stepped right into it. I am a freak, no matter what my T says, and there is no hope.
I will never get over this. It's another failure after all this work and I no longer believe in humanity or myself, no matter how hard my T tries to say otherwise. I am so damaged that I can never heal; it's just not possible for me. Not much of a life worth living.
antigua
Posted by Tamar on October 27, 2005, at 20:04:29
In reply to Re: hugs in general (ramble alert!), posted by caraher on October 27, 2005, at 9:00:15
> I'm not sure just how other men feel about this, but for me hugs are a kind of touchy (no pun intended) subject, mostly because I consider myself largely hug-deprived. I have never in my life refused *anyone* a hug, but I'm not a hug-initiator. The only person I really feel I can hug just because I feel like it is my wife... well, or my sons.
I can relate to that. I’m pretty shy really and I don’t usually initiate hugs because I’m afraid of being rejected, although I really like them.
> So I guess the desire to be hugged specifically by a man seems fairly natural and innocent to me, and it may have been present regardless of any past history of abuse.
That’s a nice way of looking at it. I like that idea.
> Sad to say, over 20 years later I'm still bitter about this. When she does hug me now (which she almost *never* did back when I was in high school) I always think, "Too late." Yeah, I'm a bit of a jerk about this.
I don’t think you’re being a jerk. Clearly you still feel hurt. That kind of experience makes a lasting impression. I’m sorry she didn’t hug you at the time when you needed it.
> Anyway, I wish I could give everyone here who needs one a real hug.
Yeah, that would be nice! Hugs to you too.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on October 27, 2005, at 20:31:05
In reply to Antigua et al., posted by Damos on October 27, 2005, at 17:25:19
Damos, you’re so sweet. And also funny!
It took me a couple of minutes to realise what you meant in your whisper to me! (Ooh, I hope I’ve got it right, otherwise this is very embarrassing!)
(((Damos))) – hope they’re not suffocating you.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on October 27, 2005, at 20:32:13
In reply to Update **trigger**, posted by antigua on October 27, 2005, at 18:43:40
Oh Antigua, I’m so sorry.
I wish I knew what to say. I do know that you are not a freak. And I wonder if perhaps you’re being a bit hard on yourself.
Do you feel able to talk a bit about what happened, either here or with your therapist?
Tamar
Posted by Shortelise on October 27, 2005, at 20:37:07
In reply to Re: Antigua et al. » Damos, posted by Tamar on October 27, 2005, at 20:31:05
My imagination is thinking ... nah, it can't be!
Posted by Shortelise on October 27, 2005, at 20:46:10
In reply to Update **trigger**, posted by antigua on October 27, 2005, at 18:43:40
Antigua, can you ask yourself why you chose someone who could not respond as you thought you would have liked him to respond?
Can you ask yourself why you asked knowing he might refuse - and you did know - knowing how much it would hurt if he did?
Can you look at where his refusal has sent you and ask yourself if for some reason this is where you wanted to be?
Where does it get you to think of yourself as a freak, damamged, unhealable?
We set these traps for ourselves, then we fall in them, and there we are, up to our necks in caca again. I do this too, and I see many others here doing the same thing. I think that for me it's because I know my "madness" better than anything else, I am in a way comfortable there: that's my familiar old caca that I've sat in for many years. It's known territory.
Keep working, Antigua, keep going. You are headed in a direction that I truly believe means healing. That path is never smooth.
((antigua))
Posted by damos on October 27, 2005, at 23:11:48
In reply to Re: Antigua et al. » Damos, posted by daisym on October 27, 2005, at 18:07:20
Right back atya.
(((Daisym)))
Posted by daisym on October 28, 2005, at 0:00:15
In reply to Update **trigger**, posted by antigua on October 27, 2005, at 18:43:40
I think that you were very brave. Instead of sitting and wondering and letting it eat at you, you took action. OK, maybe it turned out bad and you sort of knew it would, but perhaps you had to do this in order to move on. The shame isn't yours, it belongs to the person who couldn't see your hurt and help you. It really belongs to the person who hurt you in the first place.
I'm so sorry it hurt so much. But I refuse to believe that you are so damaged that you will never heal. This wasn't a failure, it was a misstep, a bad call, an act of desperation because you feel SO BAD. What would you say to me if I said I was a freak because of what happened to me? Please be kind to yourself.
I wish I could help more. I'm holding you in my thoughts tonight.
(((Antigua)))
Posted by Damos on October 28, 2005, at 0:19:37
In reply to Update **trigger**, posted by antigua on October 27, 2005, at 18:43:40
Sweet, sweet Antigua, there's no humiliation or shame in asking for what we need. Gosh, I wish I could have been as brave as you were. I'm sorry he couldn't see beyond himself and glimpse the incredible chance he had to give an amazing gift. I'm sorry he didn't appreciate the gift he'd been given by the very act of your asking.
I wish I could offer you more. Please don't give up on you. This is so not a failure and you are so not those things you said. It means a lot to mean that you are here and that you share these things with us. Your being here helps me.
(((Antigua)))
This is the end of the thread.
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