![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 46 to 70 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by pinkeye on May 13, 2005, at 20:38:41
In reply to Re: ask yourself this... » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 13, 2005, at 20:33:57
And I don't necessarily like him all that much.. There are way too many conflicts.. issues about every thing. And it is really hard for both of us to agree on many things, so we don't talk too much..
But he says he loves me. and that he would never ever want to leave me. I am not so sure myself. I think I like him, and he is very affectionate, and very nice, and pleasant to have around most of the times. But for some reason I never trust him too much. And I don't feel too connected with him. I never felt very attracted or think about him or anything. And I used to think maybe it was my own problems that I am not able to love him. But maybe he has his own problems as well. Otherwise, people wouldn't get into too fanatical cults. But he puts up with me. I used to be very bad in the first year in our marriage.. but after therapy I completely changed that.
Posted by 10derHeart on May 13, 2005, at 21:17:46
In reply to Re: ask yourself this..., posted by Dinah on May 13, 2005, at 17:47:01
Thanks, Dinah, for somehow reading my mind - yet again. Because I care so very much about Pinkeye, and I am deeply disturbed by what she's written.
But, I am so triggered by this thread I haven't really been able to effectively post yet. I'll try a little bit now.
Pinkeye, I know you'll read this eventually....first, don't apologize for anything I'M feeling. I know you are so sweet and caring you'll worry first about me. I'm fine. In fact, I needed to find out if my own domestic abuse experiences years ago really were all dealt with or not. Now I know, so I can take this issue up with my T. sometime.
Second, I can only say to you that I've lived through this, and spent time in a women's shelter on 3 occasions. Unfortunately.
Just listen very carefully to what all your caring Babble friends are saying here. Just listen and think. I know it's scary and hard, but your life could depend on it.
Please, please be careful dear pinkeye. Accidents can happen when people are out of control and violent. So it really never matters what the intention was, after it's too late...
**The behaviors your husband is engaging in almost ALWAYS escalate. I mean over 90% of the time** :-(
I'll try to post more as soon as I can. I probably just need to calm down the rage a little bit first.
Posted by pinkeye on May 13, 2005, at 21:37:50
In reply to Re: ask yourself this... » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on May 13, 2005, at 21:17:46
Thanks so much 10derHeart. I am sorry if it brings up previous bad memories for you. You don't have to post when you are feeling bad or triggered ok?
My husband is really really a good guy.. I think he is tortured because he is staying in the US. He wants to go to India, and I have been trying to hold him here for a long time. I think it is a huge mistake on my part.
But unfortunately, going back to India triggers too much of emotions myself.. I feel my life and all my efforts so far, is completely meaningless. And I end up completely getting depressed and mad if I think of having to go back to India. Believe, I have honestly tried several several several times to make up my mind.. both with my ex T and my current T, but I always end up getting depressed and crying. And I just cannot think of going back.
And I think the ideal solution is for both of us to split. Besides this india/us issue, we don't think alike too much in many things. But we both still have lot of unconditional positive regards and affection towards each other.. Somehow we have managed to survive everything that has come up so far without any amount of bitterness or anger towards each other. We still have good times together.
And I don't trust my own judgement too much.. especially in relationships. So I tend to think that I am the one who is wrong. My emotional self is totally unhealthy one - I am very complicated, childish, immature, adamant, cannot take defeat, and feel worthless, and hurt etc. And I think, that if I leave him, then more than likely I will never find anyone good. And even if I meet someone good and I like them, they are almost always married already and they don't like me too much (it has happened twice already - once wiht a colleague and my exT). So I don't really think I can trust myself to get out of this marriage and go and find someone else. Plus I am an indian, and that makes things 100 times more difficult for me. Plus this kind of thing is very common in India as far as I know. If all indian women have to leave their husbands, then pretty much none of the marriages would survive. It is changing nowadayds, but still is very prevalent.
And the basic point, is, I don't trust my own judgment too much. especially wrt to liking a man or disliking a man.. I tend to project too much of my own stuff, and not understand the other person.
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 8:52:02
In reply to Re: Can I ask you all something? **trigger** » sunny10, posted by pinkeye on May 13, 2005, at 16:01:10
there are plenty of men whom you haven't met yet...
Also, there are men that you have met, but they haven't met the true you that you keep hidden inside.
So never think that you don't have options, or that you will never find a mate, because you will-if you give yourself permission to be yourself.
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 8:59:40
In reply to Re: ask yourself this... » 10derHeart, posted by pinkeye on May 13, 2005, at 21:37:50
just a quick one- don't make excuses for him.
I have very recently gone through a very terrifying violently ended argument with my SO.
I can UNDERSTAND what led him to do what he did- but ultimately, HE is responsible for making sure it never happens again. I have already told him that I WILL NOT continue trying to make this relationship work unless he goes into anger management therapy and gets to the bottom of his own issues. Their issues ARE NOT OURS TO FIGURE OUT OR TO FIX.
They belong to our violent men and they MUST be dealt with or WE HAVE TO LEAVE THEM. There are plenty of shelters that would help you if you need the help. Remember one thing. Wherever you go; there you are. For your husband- if he takes you back to India, he will still be the same man. A change in scenery does not change the man.
Period.
Oh, and one more thing... please tell your parents what is happening.
Posted by Joslynn on May 17, 2005, at 16:08:01
In reply to Re: ask yourself this... » 10derHeart, posted by pinkeye on May 13, 2005, at 21:37:50
If domestic abuse is more tolerated in India as you said, wouldn't it actually be more dangerous to go there? I know it happens here too, but at least here, you have some chance of protection and legal recourse.
By the way, from what I have read, abusers will keep abusing regardless of where they live.
Take care of yourself. Someone around here recently got killed by her husband. She probably thought he was basically a "nice guy" too.
Posted by pinkeye on May 17, 2005, at 16:26:02
In reply to Re: ask yourself this... » pinkeye, posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 8:59:40
Thanks Sunny.
But my husband is really a nice guy. I would say even better than me as a person.
That is what makes me think twice.
Maybe it is just me who is making him angry. I really don't know the right approach. If I tell my T here, she says walk away from the marriage. But I know in India it is lot more tolerated, and people won't divorce people just because they get physically violent.
I wish I could tell my ex T and get his opinion. He might know better. He knew it used to happen before, but I didn't really make a big issue out of it. So I guess he thought it was an one time affair. And my husband is very stressed now, and I am hoping he will change if he gets a chance to live in India. I don't know.
Posted by pinkeye on May 17, 2005, at 16:28:27
In reply to wouldn't India be more dangerous?, posted by Joslynn on May 17, 2005, at 16:08:01
It is more tolerated there. I am sure if I go and complain to someone there, they would say why are you making a huge deal out of it. Especially when the violence hasn't gotten out of hand. I have even heard comments like "It is actually very good for a man to beat his wife and keep her in line - It proves he is a MAN etc.". I am not sure how things are now.
But I will also have my parents there. So worst case, I can go to my parents house. I don't know too much though. Will have to see how things turn up.
Posted by Tamar on May 17, 2005, at 17:31:55
In reply to Re: ask yourself this... » sunny10, posted by pinkeye on May 17, 2005, at 16:26:02
> Thanks Sunny.
>
> But my husband is really a nice guy. I would say even better than me as a person.Well.. except that he is physically violent towards you.
> That is what makes me think twice.
The confusing thing is that nice people can do bad things. He might well be nice, but I have to admit, I think violence towards a partner is unacceptable behavior, no matter how good he may be in other respects.
> Maybe it is just me who is making him angry. I really don't know the right approach. If I tell my T here, she says walk away from the marriage. But I know in India it is lot more tolerated, and people won't divorce people just because they get physically violent.
Is that partly an economic issue? Certainly in circumstances where it's economically harder for a woman to leave a man, violence is usually more tolerated. And no matter how angry you make him, he has no right to hit you.
> I wish I could tell my ex T and get his opinion. He might know better. He knew it used to happen before, but I didn't really make a big issue out of it. So I guess he thought it was an one time affair. And my husband is very stressed now, and I am hoping he will change if he gets a chance to live in India. I don't know.Pinkeye, it usually gets worse instead of better, no matter what the circumstances. Did you know that most domestic violence begins when a woman is pregnant? I know you're not planning children at the moment, but if he's already violent now, what will you be willing to put up with if you do get pregnant?
Sorry to sound so negative, but I hate it when people I care about are being hurt, especially in this way. I just don't see that there's any excuse for violence.
Posted by pinkeye on May 17, 2005, at 18:42:37
In reply to Re: ask yourself this... » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on May 17, 2005, at 17:31:55
I have seen everybody being hit. They all survived. My dad has slapped my mom. Maybe 3 - 4 occasions. It never went out of hand for him. And every family I knew, there was always atleast a few incidences in each family. Many families had it much worse. All my uncles hit their wives. Pretty much everyone I knew. My fahter's brothers, my mom's brothers everyone hit their wives - atleast a few times in their lives
So that is why I don't make a big deal out of it. And I am aware that in the west it is not tolerated at all, but that is what I would expect from any indian guy. And none of my relative women got murdered. I have even know cases, where the woman was asked to stand in the hot sun (at more than 100 degrees heat) in barefeet the whole day. In my own relatives.
That is why I don't make a big issue out of it. Women don't walk away, because they are not capable economically. And it is prohibited highly in the society.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 20:23:42
In reply to Why is it such a big deal? » Tamar, posted by pinkeye on May 17, 2005, at 18:42:37
I think it's a big deal because it's a choice he's making, and it's not a choice that's respectful of you at all.
But I think it's a bigger deal for your daughters and sons. Do you want your daughter to be hit? Do you want her to grow up thinking it's ok to be violent as long as the violence is against women? Do you want her beautiful dark hair to be yanked? Do you want her to think she deserves to be hit?
Do you want your son to grow up to think it's ok to hit as long as it's women he's hitting? Do you want him to think it's ok to make those choices?
If you model that behavior for them, you might as well tell them "Daughter, go find a man who will hit you and pull your hair." "Son, beat up on any woman who is not perfectly obedient to you."
A friend of mine had a husband with a whole slew of flaws. I never said one word about any of them until she told me he had hit her, to the point of knocking her out once. Her kids were left to check on her and make sure she was ok. I didn't think that was ok, and I for the first time said something about her marriage. I told her to look at her beautiful daughters. And to realize that even though their Dad didn't hit them, she was teaching them that husbands hit wives, and that it was ok for them to be hit.
It's not ok for you to be hit. And it's not ok to abuse children by letting them see their same sex parent disrespected and abused. And it's not ok to abuse children by teaching them that it's ok to abuse either.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 20:25:44
In reply to Re: Why is it such a big deal? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 20:23:42
She left him. And gave her daughters the very clear message that it is not ok at all for husbands to hit wives. And that if anyone laid a hand on them they should leave. Because they deserved better.
Posted by pinkeye on May 17, 2005, at 20:39:53
In reply to Re: Why is it such a big deal? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 20:23:42
What would I do if I leave him for this? No good guy from India would marry me. They do not marry a divorcee. And even if someone marries me, they would surely be much worse than my husband.
And I don't think good guys like me. My ex T was a good guy - he didn't like me. I liked another guy once - he was also already married. I might like good guys, but they have to like me back right? The other guy actually told me he really liked me. But what to do - he was already married and was in love with his wife. And my ex T told me there is no question of liking me. And I haven't liked anyone too much other than these two. I had crush on couple of guys - but then later I realized that they were complete jerks. I wouldn't marry them even if they give me million dollars though at that time I thought they were really cool and had a huge crush. And now I am not even sure what my feelings towards my ex T and the other guy was. My new T tells me that all my liking so far were complete trasnference, and it is all a projection - she says that is why I chose to like people who were already married in the first place. So I don't know even if I can trust my own feelings of like/dislike. I don't know if my lack of attachment to my husband also has to do soemthing with transference. I sometimes think maybe he is really nice, but I am not able to like him because I don't have any dad transference to him (he is younger to me, so I don't think of him like my dad). My new T tells me that I don't like any guy who is not like my dad.
And in the friends that I see around, there is nobody I would want to be married to.
I had 3 - 4 guys (who were good) who proposed to me, but I didn't like them.
It is 1000 times more difficult for an indian woman to leave her husband than it is for an american woman.
Besides, I feel my hsuband is really good anyways. He expects me to do things as he wishes, but as long as I do them like he wants, he is completely affectionate and caring. Only when there are problems and I don't want what he wants there is an issue. Nowadays, I don't say anything against him. I just don't talk to him about any serious issues. I come to babble. I just talk superficially to him.
But actually he has been trying to be very nice to me in the past 4 months.. excpet this couple of occasions when he pulled my hair and forced me etc.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 20:50:03
In reply to But I have nowhere else to go » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 17, 2005, at 20:39:53
Well, that could use some brainstorming.
You're ok financially. You're ok living here, in fact you want to. Would your family disown you if you divorced?
But you feel you need to be married, and wouldn't be happy living alone. And you feel that you need to marry an Indian man, who wouldn't feel free to marry a divorcee. You wouldn't be happy being married to a man who wasn't of your religion? Is that Hindu or Buddhist? Would an American man who embraced Buddhism be acceptable?
I take it you aren't like me. If I hadn't met a guy like my husband, I'd have been a perfectly happy spinster.
How old are you now? How old would you feel you needed to be married by?
Do you want to have kids? Do you want to have them with this man? I can assure you that kids will not be as careful of your husband as you are being. Will it be ok to you if he hits them? Will he consider that acceptable? What if you stay with him, but don't have kids? Would that be ok with you?
Just throwing out questions so that I can get a better idea of where you are at in your thinking.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 20:56:32
In reply to Re: But I have nowhere else to go » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 20:50:03
I don't actually advise that anyone *leave* their husband except as a last resort.
In a perfect world, husbands would choose to make changes that would enable wives to stay with them while retaining their self respect, and provide children with good role models of what it means to be a man, a husband, a father.
Posted by pinkeye on May 18, 2005, at 12:57:42
In reply to Re: But I have nowhere else to go » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 20:50:03
But I don't want to be a jerk and leave my husband off when his father is sick. I really like my in laws, and want to be with my husband when his father is ill.
And his father is 78, and has diabetes and blood pressure. Plus he has got something called beningn cancer.. So we don't know how long he will survive.
Just that it is incredibly hard for me to give up what I worked for so long.
Posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 15:43:52
In reply to But I don't want to be a jerk » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 18, 2005, at 12:57:42
but it takes TWO to work out a marriage...
The biggest problem that I see is that once you learn something, you can't unlearn it. And to live against acquired values will make you depressed.
You've now, perhaps unfortunately for your situation, learned that women are equal to men and that the way that women are treated in your part of India is not acceptable in other parts of the world.
And you won't be able to just "forget it"... you can't. Humans just aren't programmed that way.
Plus- you're not a jerk. He's a jerk for demeaning you. You can physically go back to India and "be there" for your husband while he goes through the pain of losing a parent, but the truth is, in your heart, you won't really be able to "be there emotionally" for him because you've realized that he has never been there emotionally for you and you have a right to a mate whom respects you. You can't unlearn this fact.
I'm so sorry that this is so hard on you. Doing what's right for ourselves after learning it late in life is so difficult when you've got a million inner critic voices in your head telling you to be a "good girl".... ask Gabbi-X-2, she knows what I mean- and I've got them, too....
My heart goes out to you, pinkeye. I am trying to send you strength...
sunny10
Posted by pinkeye on May 18, 2005, at 16:53:30
In reply to Re: But I don't want to be a jerk, posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 15:43:52
Thanks a lot sunny. Your post has brought some lot of clarity in my thinking.
I think part of the reason why I am struggling so much in my marriage is that I have to unlearn everything I learnt as a child. And though my fahter was wrong in many things, there were things he was right about - how a woman could be career oriented and achieving and be able to understand things one of them.
And that is what I am scared the most about. My hsuband wants me to be mostly a house oriented wife, taking care of the children and being for the family and supporting him in his endeavors. And while I want to do that = take care of the child and support him, there are lot of things that I am capable of doing that I want to. Which is goign to be very difficult to do with my husband in my life.
Like, I have desires to start a business and be a business woman. And I think I might be decently good with it. I even have desires to enter into a more public life. I have desires to one day have a very active social life -run a business, run a school, even enter into public administration etc - I am not sure about here or India - maybe in both. And I am going to have a very tough time geetting my husband to give me ok for all that. I don't need his support - I jsut need no interference. But I am sure he is going to make a big issue out of it. I dont know how I am goign to handle all that in the future. He is ok with me working on a daily job.. but that is so limited for me. I don't want to do that throughout my life.
Regarding the immediate decision about India, that also I am scared.. I want to stay here for more years.. and have a kid here etc. And it is awfully breaking my heart to give up everything and go back. I know his father's last days are now, and I so want to be there for him. But on the other hand, I am giving up my life for it. I have tried to work out other compromises - my husband can go and I can visit and stuff, and my husband is not taking any of it. I don't want to prevent my hsuband from being with his dad in the last days.
Maybe there is an easier solution to all these. But as you said, it is so hard to unlearn the stuff.
Posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 8:49:22
In reply to Re: But I don't want to be a jerk » sunny10, posted by pinkeye on May 18, 2005, at 16:53:30
I didn't say it was HARD to unlearn... it's IMPOSSIBLE.
Seems like the most pressing issue is going back to India for your father-in-law. Perhaps you can suggest a compromise to your husband. Like, "ok, how about we go back to India for a year and then return to the US after a year?"
He does need to understand that you will always have something to say about the choices that you make as a couple. But present this to him in a posistive way.
Praise him for bringing you to the US where you learned to be a strong equal "helpmate" to your husband. Tell him that you are happy that he was there alongside you while you learned that you are as capable as he at bringing money into your marriage and setting up a nice life to bring a child into. Turn your learning to be independent into "what's in it for him" and praise him for being so wise to bring you to the US. Make it all about HIM. He wants to know that he is "the man of the house", so give him what he wants! The praise, the aknowledgement of his success at helping his wife become an even better wife...
You know what I mean, I think... Generally speaking, men who hit do it to "prove their power". Tell him how powerful he is. Tell him that you think he is wise. And tell him that he never has to raise a hand against you anymore because he's taught you to be the strong, smart, wage earning woman he wanted.... Granted, he WANTS a doormat, but this probably won't occur to him while you are praising him. It's kind of like something you want to put in the middle of your praise, sneak in the "he doesn't have to hit you to teach you anymore" in the middle of your praise. THEN hit him with the compromise I suggested above...
Your situation is bad right now- trying something like this can't hurt... at best it will help.
Posted by pinkeye on May 19, 2005, at 13:25:49
In reply to Re: But I don't want to be a jerk, posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 8:49:22
But that won't help me, because I was earning long before he entered into my life. Well, he had been classmates in college, but then we barely knew each other. And went our separate ways, and I was in the US even before he came here. I had come alone and was pretty well established before he came to the US. Then we remet in the US and got married. I got his Green card also for him. So I cannot say all that.
But I do tell him he is a very good person. He is very nice and affectionate and cute most of the times. This issue of India is the major problem between us and maybe some other.. Maybe I can work something out of a decent compromise. He takes care of me very well when I have pain. And he IS a stronger person than me. I cry, and am weak, and am afraid etc. And he has emerged out to be a happy person. And I like him for all that.
Thanks Sunny though.
Posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 14:35:32
In reply to That was really funny :-) » sunny10, posted by pinkeye on May 19, 2005, at 13:25:49
okay, so my EXAMPLES didn't work, but I'm sure you can think of something to pump up his ego before requesting the compromise!!!
In the words of Mary Poppins, "just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down" (US pop culture reference- but your future kids will love Mary Poppins, as will the little girl inside of you- go rent it, you'll love it!)
Posted by pinkeye on May 19, 2005, at 19:22:34
In reply to Re: That was really funny :-), posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 14:35:32
I will do both of what you have said :-)
Thanks Sunny.
Posted by anastasia56 on May 20, 2005, at 0:14:44
In reply to Re: That was really funny :-), posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 14:35:32
sunny, i gotta say you sound an awful lot like my mother in your post to pinkeye...and my mother is the pollyana of all time. I grew up on the theory that you praise the man and give him credit (in pinkeyes case, that he made her the woman she is today, heh heh) and that he will feel so great he won't need to knock her around. Good suggestions you brought to the table...if pinkeye doesn't want to use them would you trot them out for me when/if i have a situation that comes up? this kind of thing does work amazingly well on men particularly.
ana
Posted by Damos on May 20, 2005, at 0:21:47
In reply to Re: That was really funny :-) » sunny10, posted by anastasia56 on May 20, 2005, at 0:14:44
Posted by sunny10 on May 20, 2005, at 11:35:48
In reply to Re: That was really funny :-) » sunny10, posted by anastasia56 on May 20, 2005, at 0:14:44
my MALE therapist suggested it!!!
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.