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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cricket on May 10, 2005, at 16:50:46
It's been a bit quiet around here lately. I hope everyone is out enjoying the spring weather.
Anyway, with Mother's Day recently passed, the topic of my mother came up in therapy.
To make a long story short, my mother was an unmarried teenager when she had me. She rejected me at birth, refused to name me (said I was too ugly). Luckily I got to spend my first 5 years with my grandparents who loved me dearly. Then, at age 5, my mother got married and I was forced to go live with my mother and her sociopath (no exaggeration) husband. For the next 12 years of my life, I had to live with 2 adults who performed virtually every sort of abuse on me.
In light of a couple of things my mother said to me on Sunday about my little 5 year old niece, my T said that he thinks that my mother too and not just my stepfather is a sociopath. My T has always said a lot of things about my mother - extreme narcissist, character disorder, etc. but I think that this was the first time he himself as a psychiatrist began to wonder what the h*** is wrong with her.
The problem is that I have absolutely no feelings about my mother at all. Certainly no love or longing, but no anger or hatred either. If anything, I find it extremely boring to talk about her. I know that it may just be the defenses I had to build up to protect myself from her. Sometimes I even feel like my T is baiting me about her. He'll say things like "What you must have gone through to protect yourself from her." or "What an awful, poisonous woman." but still I feel nothing.
Is this all going to come crashing around me someday? Will I break down in my T's office and cry about how I never had a mommy who loved me? He's been putting it out there for 3 years now and still not a twinge of anything on my part. Perhaps I'm the sociopath.
Did anyone ever have such zero feelings for a parent? Did that ever change?
I guess the really strange thing is talking about my mother is so much more bland for me than the talks we had about therapy itself, my level of trust in my T, my fears about telling him things, etc. that emotionally I feel more stable. It sort of feels like we've spent a session talking about the weather.
Posted by annierose on May 10, 2005, at 17:28:32
In reply to Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger), posted by cricket on May 10, 2005, at 16:50:46
Well, for me, when I first went to therapy in my early 20's, I never understood where my T was going. I kindof felt numb, like, yes, my parents were less than ideal, but so what.
THEN ... I grew up, got married and had children. The defense walls came crashing down. I'm back with that same T and I now get everything she was trying to help me undercover years ago. For me, being a mother, changed everything. How could any mother sleep away her child's life? Not care? Not play with her? Enjoy her company? etc. etc.
I don't know if that answered your question. But like you, I was in therapy for 5 years and I could never grasp the concepts she was trying to explore. Never felt the rage or anger. Now I do, and I cry in therapy now too. :)
Posted by gardenergirl on May 10, 2005, at 18:49:06
In reply to Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger), posted by cricket on May 10, 2005, at 16:50:46
That sure sounds like it could cause a great deal of difficult and complex feelings. Perhaps one way you learned to cope with it is by shutting down your feelings for your mother. I think that might be a natural response.
As to whether it might all come crashing in on you someday, it's hard to say. If it does, I think that would be understandable, too. I would encourage you to explore this with your T and to be easy on yourself about this. What you feel or don't is your own truth. And that is what's right for you.
(((cricket)))
gg
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 19:43:05
In reply to Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger), posted by cricket on May 10, 2005, at 16:50:46
I am really sorry to hear that. That must have been so very bad for you.
Sometimes, I think when a person is too bad to us, or our feelings hurt us too much, we kind of become totally indifferent - and become numb, or dissociate or block things. And that is a protective mechanism that God has given us. No wonder why you don't feel anything. And quite rightfully so. If I were in your position, I would have been the same. You are not the sociopath. The very fact that you are going to therapy, and tyring to understand and coming and writing on this board, and seeking help, speaks a lot to your goodness. Actually I am amazed that you have turned out with so much of goodness after all that. I am truly amazed.
Hang in there, and I know it is not possible to revert the situation now, but for all you know, God might have some plans for you.. He might send you a person who will love you - more than you ever wanted to be loved in life and that will make it all worthwhile. Maybe your husband or maybe your kid, or maybe someone else, will see you for what you are, and will acknowledge and love you. And those are the moments that you would be looking forwards, and you need to prepare yourself to be worthy of such a person when the time comes.
Take care, and hugs,
Pinkeye
Posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 19:52:33
In reply to Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger), posted by cricket on May 10, 2005, at 16:50:46
I've pretty much emotionally divorced my mom, taken away her power to hurt me. And a lot of the feelings went away with it. I do think she's interesting though.
If someone hurts you enough, I think something just snaps.
I'm so angry they took you away from your grandparents though.
Posted by happyflower on May 10, 2005, at 22:24:48
In reply to Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger), posted by cricket on May 10, 2005, at 16:50:46
I have also divorsed my mom too. She was an abuser and will abuse my kids if I allow her in my life. I have no feelings for her at all. If she died tommorrow, I wouldn't cry, or attend her funeral. If she was on her death bed and wanted to right her wrongs, I wouldn't see her. She is a stranger to me. She doesn't deserve me.
Posted by cubic_me on May 11, 2005, at 7:29:04
In reply to Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger), posted by cricket on May 10, 2005, at 16:50:46
I have similar feelings towards my mum, although she didn't abuse me physically or sexually, she did emotionally neglect me. I find it strange that my reaction is so severe that I have totally disconnected any feelings towards her (although I don't know if anything happened before I can remember).
We get on better now, but I still don't have much emotion towards her, I treat her more like a business partner. And like others here I just think 'what happened happened, what does it matter anyway'. However I'm only in my early 20s, so things could change as I get older.
Posted by cricket on May 11, 2005, at 9:53:56
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » cricket, posted by annierose on May 10, 2005, at 17:28:32
AnnieRose,
I am a mother too, but nothing much changed for me with that. Well, my T thinks that my relationship with my son is a very healthy and healing one but it doesn't make me think about my own childhood at all.
But maybe that's because my child is a boy. It took me seeing my mother with my little niece that made me realize a little bit of what I went through with my mother.
It was my niece's 5th birthday. My mother pointed at the little paper tablecloth, which said something like Beautiful Princess, and asked my niece what it said. My niece, with a big eager to please smile, said, "It says Happy Birthday." My mother pulled on me and said in this big stage whisper voice, "You see, she knows nothing. Nothing. Not even her letters. And they are sending her to Kindergarten. They are making a big mistake. And on top of that she is spoiled rotten. She'll have her rude awakening when she goes to school and she finds out that the world does not revolve around her. She'll get hers."
Meanwhile, this tiny little girl, not yet 5 years old, is staring up at us with these big round eyes and she knows something is being said about her and she might not know what exactly it is but she knows that it is not good.
I just pulled away from my mother and said, "She is listening to every word you're saying."
Then slowly it began to dawn on me that I went to live with my mother right before I turned 5, the exact same age as my niece. And that horrible, vicious ridicule and contempt must have be directed at me not just during the occasional get-together but every single day.
Excuse the long reply, but I guess I am trying to connect to it. It doesn't come easy though.
Posted by happyflower on May 11, 2005, at 10:12:05
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » annierose, posted by cricket on May 11, 2005, at 9:53:56
Isn't it amazing the insite you gain when you become an adult and see your parents acting like they do and you wonder what in the heck they did with you when you were little. It really is hard to see and except, but wow if you can change that patteren with your own children, just think how good your kids can be. Just imagine if instead of degrading comments you received as a child, you received postitive comments and support. I bet a lot of us wouldn't be on this babble board. I guess the only positives I have recieved from my parents is what NOT to do to my kids. I guess there is always a silver lining in the clouds. :)
Posted by cricket on May 11, 2005, at 10:37:39
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » cricket, posted by gardenergirl on May 10, 2005, at 18:49:06
Thanks gg.
I think it may also be that none of this will come out at all until I feel safer with my T. It's been a very tumultuous 6 months or so of therapy for me but I feel like maybe we have made some progress.
Posted by cricket on May 11, 2005, at 10:45:38
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » cricket, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 19:43:05
Hi Pinkeye,
You are so sweet and wise too. You really touch me. I know that people have probably tried to get through to me in the past and I would never let anyone close. Now I want to be ready for anyone who does come in my future.
And I think my son really does love me. And I do want to be worthy of that.
Posted by cricket on May 11, 2005, at 11:00:41
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger), posted by happyflower on May 10, 2005, at 22:24:48
Hey Happyflower,
That's a really good point about using our parents to teach us how not to do things. I love it that you can always find the bright side of things.
I used to take my son to day care on the train every day. We had a regular schedule so we'd generally see the same people. One day a man came up to me and said, "You know I've been listening to you every day and I have to say that I really like the way you talk to your son. You don't talk down to him at all." Given my history, I never really thought of that as something extraordinary, or even really a compliment. But maybe I should. I'm certainly doing it better than my mom.
Posted by cricket on May 11, 2005, at 11:18:30
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » cricket, posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 19:52:33
Dinah,
It's interesting that you say you're angry at them for taking me away from my grandparents. That's exactly the area that my T focuses on. He also wonders how my grandparents could have ever let me go. He calls it a peasant mentality.
Seems that you and my T's mind work in similar ways. I think I need to talk to you more. :)
Posted by cricket on May 11, 2005, at 11:35:20
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » cricket, posted by cubic_me on May 11, 2005, at 7:29:04
Cubic_me,
Maybe it will happen to you like Annierose - when you have kids or become close to a child for some reason.
Posted by Annierose on May 11, 2005, at 11:42:00
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » annierose, posted by cricket on May 11, 2005, at 9:53:56
Yes, it does sound like your mother is angry with your 5 year old niece, for no reason. And it gives you some insight on how she probably treated you.
I say, don't push or force a feeling that doesn't exist for you.
I do have a daughter, and it is with her that I struggle the most with. I always thought it was because of her strong personality (compared with my easy going son), but I now know, her exeperieces are constant sources of triggers for me.
It's tough being a parent!
Posted by happyflower on May 11, 2005, at 11:51:01
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » happyflower, posted by cricket on May 11, 2005, at 11:00:41
> Hey Happyflower,
>
> One day a man came up to me and said, "You know I've been listening to you every day and I have to say that I really like the way you talk to your son. You don't talk down to him at all." Given my history, I never really thought of that as something extraordinary, or even really a compliment. But maybe I should. I'm certainly doing it better than my mom.You take it as a wonderful compliment! I get those comments too, and it feels so wonderful. Yes, the cycle of abuse can stop, it is up to us! I kids will never know what it feels like to be unloved. It takes hard work to raise good kids, but the benefits are so worth it!
Posted by happyflower on May 11, 2005, at 11:55:39
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger), posted by Annierose on May 11, 2005, at 11:42:00
>>
> I do have a daughter, and it is with her that I struggle the most with. I always thought it was because of her strong personality (compared with my easy going son), but I now know, her exeperieces are constant sources of triggers for me.
>
I know how that feels, my daughter has my mothers eyes and some of her expressions and it gets to me sometimes. I love her so much, and would never hold it against her, its not her fault, but I have to make sure I am treating her fairly like a daughter and not let my (mothers(my abuser) expressions) influence me with her. Sometimes it is so hard.
Posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 12:08:22
In reply to Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger), posted by cricket on May 10, 2005, at 16:50:46
I have not spoken to my mother in 20 years.
I do not "feel" anything towards her except pity. She is truly a miserable human being who will die alone.
But I will not allow her to have a relationship with my son, as she wants, because I do not want him to absorb any of the poison I had to absorb from her emotional abuse until I was eighteen and could leave the house.
I think that perhaps you have disassociated your feelings for her as a natural mechanism for simple survival. But the fact that you are in therapy and question whether you "are worth" the compliment you received for being a good parent tells me that you may not be "feeling the feelings" for HER, but you have incorporated your mother's distaste for you as distaste for yourself. Now you are stuck with the bad feelings about yourself.
I think your T is trying to get you to "feel the feelings"- pushing it at you- because you can't deal with why you feel that way about yourself while continuing to disassociate yourself from your mother. Because you're not truly separate; you and your mother. You have incorporated her as your "critical voice" and need to learn how to take away power from that "critical voice" in order to find peace and acceptance for yourself.
I'm not a T, and cannot say what is best for you.
But as a fellow sufferer of early childhood emotional abuse and neglect, I would suggest you speak directly to your T about why he is "pushing" you. As the professional, maybe he DOES think that you need to "deal with her"- or maybe he wants you to make a demand as to what you want- or.... anything... but I assume there is a "method to his madness" here.Maybe print out your original post here and read it to him, or let him read it?? It'll serve two purposes:
1) let him understand you better, and
2) give him a chance to make it clear to you why he is doing it.At least, in theory....
Or I'm reading into something that wasn't implied...
Let us know how it goes, though, you've definitely piqued my interest!!!
-sunny10
Posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 12:20:59
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » pinkeye, posted by cricket on May 11, 2005, at 10:45:38
Posted by cricket on May 12, 2005, at 7:43:31
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » cricket, posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 12:08:22
Hi Sunny,
You're absolutely right. I have incorporated my mother's critical voice inside me. In fact, not just my mother's but my stepfather's some early teachers, my brothers. My self loathing is extensive to say the least.
I think my therapist is trying to get me to have some empathy for that little not yet 5 year old that was sent away to what he calls the "labor camp" So you're right, there's definitely a method to his madness.
Unfortunately, for right now, therapy is such a terrifying experience for me that I still can barely speak at all there. My telling him the conversation I had with my mother was a first for me. Although he got a general history in the first couple of sessions, I've never told him much since then and that was 3 years ago. Unless he was speaking, our sessions have pretty much been conducted in silence.
So right now, after saying all those words last week, I feel like never going back. It was probably too much for me. So taking active control of my therapy is way beyond my capacity.
But thanks Sunny. I will keep everyone updated.
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 9:46:35
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » sunny10, posted by cricket on May 12, 2005, at 7:43:31
I wish I could send you the strength to make your sessions more than silence.
Please take care of yourself, okay, cricket???
-sunny10
Posted by cricket on May 12, 2005, at 11:47:38
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » cricket, posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 9:46:35
Thanks Sunny.
Funny thing is that in my session my T seemed really nervous or something.
He kept on tripping over his own words, stopping himself mid-sentence, then closing his eyes and starting on a new thought. I assumed something else was going on with him and it had nothing to do with me. But maybe he knows me better than I think and maybe he knew that talking like that was more than I could handle and he knew that all my flight triggers were about to be activated and he was grasping for a way to cut the wires, so to speak.
Even though I felt fine in the session. There were no tears, no shaking. At most I felt that this is boring - talking about my mother. Now I feel like, "Oh no, I've said too much. That wasn't really me talking. That was somebody else. Why did I let them talk? Now I hate myself. I don't ever want to go back there."
Could he possibly know I might react that way? I rarely give this poor guy the benefit of the doubt. Maybe this week I will try to do at least that much different.
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 13:32:56
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings » sunny10, posted by cricket on May 12, 2005, at 11:47:38
I think in this case it is wiser to go with your initial train of thought.
His hesitancy and seeming "out of it", maybe, probably has something to do with something in his own life he is dealing with.
Do you think you could ask him about how HE seemed during your next session? Therapy is a type of relationship and you both need to be "there" and honest with each other. Of course, none of us are always "completely there" for the other person- we're all human. But it sounds like it would help you to know why he seemed so different to you.
Maybe transference, maybe not... But knowing which would be a powerful tool for you, either way, right???
Don't second guess yourself by wondering why you've said what you've said, or that it was too much information... There's no room for "too much" in therapy! (Although you might help yourself buy telling HIM you thought these things..)
How can we expect them to help if they don't know ALL of the thoughts that go through our minds??
If all we ever say is what's "socially acceptable", society gets therapy, not us.
In my opinion (yes, all of this is my opinion!), therapy in itself is a "society", but in this society, complete honesty is necessary for advancement... especially if that honesty is questioning ourselves.
I think I question myself too much, for instance... Frankly, I think I think too much...
And I'll tell my T THAT, so that she can help me learn to calm down (I hope!)
It's a process; therapy. Use it to your advantage whenever possible.
hugs,
sunny10
Posted by Susan47 on May 14, 2005, at 12:40:05
In reply to Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger), posted by cricket on May 10, 2005, at 16:50:46
Dear Cricket, in answer to your question, I've felt that way about my parents as well, and I still do to some extent today. I'm learning to work it out, but I want to help relieve your fears.
You're totally normal and A-okay, you're nowhere near being a sociopath unless you're repeating what was done to you. I've had the same worries you do, until really recently. In fact, I thought I could never be a parent and when I was in my early twenties I feared it because I knew I'd be an abusive parent. I knew already at that point, you know, that my family life wasn't good, and I'd pass that on, at that point in my life. Man.
You feeling bored by talking about your mother, well, you're very perceptive in that, imo, because the boredom shows how much you're denying her effect on you. It's horrible to know our families betrayed us. You might also get to a breakdown point, or you might not. I cried silently to myself for years and never was able to talk to anyone about how dissociated I felt towards my family and all people, until this last year, except for my last husband. He knew because he has the same problems himself, he still has them though, he hasn't seen through it yet. Well, I hope everyone who's had really abusive families get to see through it all, but I know that's pretty unrealistic.
I think you will get there, though. You don't have to have a breakdown to do it, though, it doesn't have to come to a big scene with your T, it might just happen or it might happen when you're by yourself, it might happen once or it might be lots of little times, or maybe it'll just be a sadness you can feel and recognize, something that eventually dissipates. I haven't read your whole thread yet but I'm going to do it now because I'm wondering if your mother is still alive.
Posted by cricket on May 16, 2005, at 9:24:44
In reply to Re: Zero Feelings (Possible Trigger) » cricket, posted by Susan47 on May 14, 2005, at 12:40:05
Thanks Susan47.
My mother is very much alive.I've been staying away from babble because I've been triggered. Has that ever happened to you?
Anyway, I'm back to thinking I don't want to talk to my T, I can't trust him. I feel ashamed of the fact that I did talk to him last session. In fact, it feels like it wasn't me who spoke. It was this superficial, ego-driven, blabber who spoke last session and I hate her. I mean she's fine at my job. She runs my work life and I have an intense, high pressure job and she manages it fine but she promised me she would never talk to my T and it's like all his pressure on me to talk made her come out and now I feel betrayed by both of them (the ego-driven blabber and my T).
Sorry I know that's all craziness but that's what I've been struggling with this week. I'm trying to get myself a little bit more together for tomorrow when I go again so I think I need to stay away for now.
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