![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by annierose on March 13, 2005, at 6:42:48
In reply to Re: Visit to pdoc (long) » daisym, posted by alexandra_k on March 13, 2005, at 0:15:30
Daisy -
I think the Pdoc was way off base to make those types of reccommendations. Exactly what Alexandra said, "how many times has she seen you?"
Three, and "our" favorite board therapist, 180 times? Seriously, your heart knows the truth, trust it. Your T is not sick of you. He knows you need the additional support and he goes out of his way to make that happen for you. And he tells you, it is not a problem for him. He does take care of himself, he tells you that. Believe him.You just can't ignore your past. It's always within us. So without exploring it, it creeps back into our everyday life in ways that is sometimes harmful, our unconscious works in strange ways.
If I was your T, I would want to strangle the Pdoc too. I wonder how quickly you left his office, before his placed a phonecall to her, "What the h*ll were you doing?"
I hope you are able to process your T's session and not berate yourself about the Pdoc's inappropriate observations about YOUR therapy (she's not in that room with you!).
Annierose
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2005, at 8:44:23
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
What she said reflected herself, her ways of working with people, and her feelings about dependency. Therapists vary widely in this regard. We've all heard of therapists who feel exactly like this woman suggested.
Never even mind you, or how well she knows you. How well do you know your therapist? You've seen him for how long? You *do* know that the standard CBT mindset is not his. You *do* know that she doesn't know him as well as you do and doesn't accurately report his values.
He was right to be angry with her. Angry for speaking for him, and for misrepresenting him.
My therapist's boundaries are different from your therapist's boundaries. Aphrodite's therapist's boundaries are still different. Etc. Many of us think our therapist's boundaries are *juuuust* right, and maybe they are - for each of us.
You should tell him the rest of what she said. You left out the most potentially hurtful part, and that's likely to fester until you share it. Share it and lance the boil.
Your therapist seems very clear on his boundaries. You can discuss them with him all you want, and try to decide what's best for you. But don't let a third party make blanket statements about how your therapist feels.
Posted by Aphrodite on March 13, 2005, at 9:39:51
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
Yuck.
My pdoc was amiably inquiring about things at our last visit. He's very sweet, so I was shocked when he said, "How often are you seeing your T?" When I answered, his eyes widened and he said, "Twice a week?!?!?" in a surprised way.
I don't think pdocs and therapists come from the same school of thought. However, when you feel like you are in the midst of a sometimes securely attached, sometimes emotionally torturous relationship, that third party opinion can shake you. She really had no right to comment, though.
You know that your therapy is right for you, and you've struggled so much to get there. I know it will withstand this uninformed opinion. I'm so sorry that you had this setback. Let your T help you recover.
Posted by Aphrodite on March 13, 2005, at 10:12:49
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
If this continues to haunt you, I wonder if you could talk to your T about a second opinion with another T. I did this (well, behind his back -- I don't recommend it) and was happy to be backed up that I was on the right path even though it felt rocky and swampy. But, I think you have a strong enough relationship with your T not to need this, but I was thinking maybe another opinion could cancel out hers.
I'm still just appalled that someone would think that challenging work means to back off.
Posted by Speaker on March 13, 2005, at 11:51:44
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
Daisy,
I think she overstepped her boundry. She is a pdoc and she doesn't know you and your relationship with your T. You are right...it is just her "opinion"! I think your T is very important and even if you don't work on the past stuff you have enough going on in today's life that you need his support. So basically what she is saying is you don't need meds and you don't need therapy...am I right???? If I read you right I think she is the one that needs a bit of education and help. Take care of you! (((((Daisy))))).
Marie
Posted by gardenergirl on March 13, 2005, at 12:32:01
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
Daisy,
I'm sorry you had such an upsetting time with your pdoc. It sounds like she is on an entirely differnt page about this kind of work than your T. And I think you need to trust your T on this and not her. He is the one doing the work with you, not her. She is just a med consultant. If she can't help you with meds, then I think she should bow out. Did you ask her opinion about therapy? I don't know, I think I want to strangle her, too.I do understand not wanting to bring out your fear about clingy clients right before you have to have reduced contact. But I do think you should bring it up. He referred her, after all. I think he needs to know that she would say something like that. And I think she was saying that SHE eventually doesn't like clingy clients. She really has no right to speak for any other T or pdoc.
I wish there was a way to look up in an encyclopedia to check that this way is the RIGHT way. Wouldn't it be nice to have that reasurrance? I guess the next best thing is to trust your gut, your incredible brain, his gut, his brain, and Babble. Probably in that order.
Take care, sweetie.
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on March 13, 2005, at 12:46:11
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
Oh yes. I agree with the peoples who said that she should have spoken for herself and not therapists in general. What one therapist finds too dependent might not be attached enough for another therapist. Unfair of her to generalise like that :-(
I think it was especially unfair of her to suggest these things... In effect planting little seeds of doubt in you.
Aren't you glad she is not your t???
I think some p-docs do do therapy.
But others are more medication prescribers.
But I really do think it was unfair of her to comment in such a way... Is she hoping to pick you up for therapy or something?
Posted by fallsfall on March 13, 2005, at 13:51:48
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
>It is her opinion that this is not the right time to be doing this deep work, given how complicated my life is.
*** I'm not convinced that your life will be simpler later. Plus, it doesn't seem to me that you have a whole lot of *choice* in the matter. You could try to bury it all, but I'm not convinced that it would allow that.
>Her answer was that I didn't have to tell the stories, that going back wasn't usually helpful and if I was unable to contain things between sessions then we were pushing too hard and too fast.
*** According to *HER* theoretical beliefs going back isn't usually helpful. But there are other qualified doctors who disagree with that.
>As far as my attachment worries, she said that I was right to be realistic about things. She believes that therapists do grow resentful of "clingy" clients and that I needed to set boundaries for myself and not tell him about them. She thinks it would help me in my own head to know what my limits were -- i.e. only three phone calls a month, or something.
*** She is advising you to keep something from your therapist????? In particular, she is advising you to make your own decisions regarding what your therapist has said is the most important work that you are doing? - in direct opposition to what he has said?
*** Different theories see dependency in different ways. My first therapist (CBT) did everything she could to drive the nasty dependency away from me. And I did my best to comply. But that didn't help me. And I don't think it will help you.
>
> I found myself shaking my head and agreeing with her. I want to set limits. I don't want my therapist to think of me as clingy and I certainly don't want him to resent me.*** Of course you don't want him to resent you. But he had TOLD you that your clinginess is NOT a problem for him. He has encouraged you to cling MORE. He wouldn't do that if he was going to resent you.
> while he was very professional about it, I could tell he wanted to strangle her. Mostly because I took away the message that I shouldn't be doing this work if I was falling apart around it, or needing my therapist in between sessions.
>I felt criticized.
*** Who did you feel criticized by? Her or him?
>I kept telling him I didn't want to talk about it yet, I hadn't had a chance to think about it enough and yet I'd go right back to it.
*** I'm glad you didn't have time to figure it all out without him.
>He also noted that she had pushed my mother button big time. That being told, "if it is upsetting, then don't do it" was my mother's standard answer.
*** This is important.
> I still didn't tell him what she said about therapists getting resentful of clingy clients. Why is that? Am I afraid he would admit it happens? (Come on, we all know it happens!) Am I afraid he is already there? It doesn't feel like he is there. Maybe I just didn't want to have the fears really out there before I left again. Do you think I need to tell him when I get back? It feels like it is getting bigger and bigger as the days go by.
*** Yes. You need to tell hiim when you get back. Or even before that. You can deal with the fears by yourself, or you can let him help you with them. Which do you think is healthier?
*** I hope you have a good trip. And STAY IN TOUCH!
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2005, at 14:50:47
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
Did you discuss anti-psychotics with her, BTW? They're big guns, but a little go a very long way. A tiny amount of Risperdal only when really needed works as it's supposed to with me as a tranquilizer on a deeper level than an anti-anxiety benzo. Way down deep in the gut. Don't let the name fool you.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 13, 2005, at 14:52:53
In reply to Re: Visit to pdoc (long) » daisym, posted by Dinah on March 13, 2005, at 14:50:47
I get the same effect with a low dose of chlorpromazine (about 25mg)
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2005, at 15:13:10
In reply to Re: Visit to pdoc (long) » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on March 13, 2005, at 14:52:53
Yes, I did too. But it's rarely prescribed in this country anymore. I guess it got some bad press. For me, personally, it was less harmful than Effexor, Wellbutrin, and Nortriptyline.
Posted by Shortelise on March 13, 2005, at 20:06:25
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
Daisy, could it be you didn't tell him about the clingy part of the convo w/ your Pea Doc because you had ENOUGH to talk about that day?
Isn't it fair to talk about that when and if you need to? Is it possible that your T doesn't feel you are "too" clingy, and you know it?
I'm sorry your Pea Doc was so off the mark.
Hugs,
ShortE
Posted by daisym on March 14, 2005, at 0:13:08
In reply to Re: Visit to pdoc (long) » daisym, posted by Shortelise on March 13, 2005, at 20:06:25
I've spent the better part of an hour staring at the phone. I've picked it up and dialed my therapist's number 4 times and listened to his message and put it down. I just can't make myself leave the message I want to leave. So I'm leaving it here:
"I'm completely freaked out tonight about leaving home again. There are too many details to take care of and I can't do any of them. I've been snapping at my kids all evening, and then tearfully apologizing. The anxiety is at a point where I just want to scream out loud. I don't know how to calm myself down right now. I feel like you are disappearing from my life, being gobbled up by the work monster. And I don't know how to stop the feeling that I'll never find my way back to a space where I can be comfortable working on things in therapy again. I'm hoping you know."
But I can't leave this message. I've been thinking all day about the past few months of therapy and I'm mortified at my own behavior. I can't believe how intense things have been and how often I've been telling him how much I need him. So leaving a tearful message would just make how I feel right now even worse.
I really do think that pdoc f-d with my head. I'll reread all your posts again and again while I'm gone. I think I'm posting so that I can absorb the support I feel here via computer-osmosis.
Thank you all. A soggy Daisy.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 14, 2005, at 1:28:02
In reply to This has more me more freaked out than I thought, posted by daisym on March 14, 2005, at 0:13:08
Yes I think p-doc f'd with your head!
Everything she said seemed like it was aimed just right at the places where you were feeling most insecure already.You are working on abuse stuff with your t, right?
Well then it makes a lot of sense to me that you would feel like you need him especially and are most worried that he will leave you because you already had to deal with the abuse once on your own and so you would be expected to be worried that you will have to do that again.But thats not going to happen.
Can you send him an email to tell him?
If it helps any, I'd happily strangle her too.
(metaphorically, of course. But I'd happily give her an earful).(((Daisy)))
Do you absolutely have to go away now?
Posted by fallsfall on March 14, 2005, at 7:24:16
In reply to This has more me more freaked out than I thought, posted by daisym on March 14, 2005, at 0:13:08
Sweetie...
It is OK to want to feel connected.
Can you call him today during your usual time? If you aren't in charge of the meeting at that time, you can slip out. If you are in charge you can call a break. Or pull the old "I have to go to the bathroom....." It is OK to take time for yourself.
There is no need to "hold it together" all by yourself. He is there for you - let him help.
You *want* the connection. So *allow* it. You will miss it if you try to deprive yourself. So try to not deprive yourself (think of me and chocolate - I'm supposed to be reducing sugars and carbs, so I stopped eating bagels and pretzels and shredded wheat, but I do NOT restrict my chocolate. The bottom line is that my sugars and carbs are reduced, but I haven't deprived myself). You can't see him, but you can talk to him. Make it a priority. It's OK to do that.
Decide if there are parts of the meeting that you can skip - and then skip them. Tell people you aren't feeling well, and you need to rest. Where do you feel the anxiety? That's where you tell them you aren't feeling well ("My stomach is pretty queezy" or "I must have pulled a muscle in my chest because it hurts a lot"). It *IS* the truth.
You don't have to be superwoman.
Carry his picture in your pocket (and put your hand in your pocket to touch it when you miss him).
Call him. Ask him to leave you voice mails.
Read Babble.
Call me.
Do what you have to do for work - AND for yourself.
(((((...Daisy)))))...
Posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 7:32:35
In reply to This has more me more freaked out than I thought, posted by daisym on March 14, 2005, at 0:13:08
That's perfectly understandable. She way overstepped her bounds in commenting on someone else's therapy, and even if you rationally know that, it's bound to be scary.
I've done that whole flash review in my mind accompanied by shame without any help from others.
Ok, this may sound silly, but it works sometimes for my ruminating fears. Remember the boggart in Harry Potter? It assumes the shape of the thing you most fear, and can be destroyed by the "Ridiculus!!!" curse. So you have to imagine the feared object in the most absurd way possible and find it ludicrous rather than scary.
Can you imagine that pdoc saying those things in a Chipmunk voice while dressed in a silly hat with big clown shoes?
Ok, just a silly suggestion.
Take care while you're gone, and as you told Aphrodite, remember that often Superrational Daisy takes over and doesn't let things be as awful as you imagine when you're in a work situation.
Keep in touch.
Posted by mair on March 14, 2005, at 9:52:08
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
When I see my pdoc, she always asks me how T is going. Although I've been seeing her for several years now, she sounded shocked about a year ago when I told her I was going 2x a week. Of course it made me feel defensive. It also makes me feel defensive when I start telling her some (very little) about therapy and realize that the issues I'm struggling with in particular, are the same issues which were plagueing me the last time I saw her - maybe 6 months before. I think I'm the slowest study in the world and it's hard for me to accept that my own snail's pace is ok. My pdoc has never been open with me about what she might be thinking about me and therapy. I think this is better although I tend to infer her unspoken opinions. If she said the kinds of things to me that your pdoc said, it would have freaked me out in a major way, because I'm heavily invested in my therapy and like you, I worry about my T getting sick of dealing with me. No one likes to think that the very thing they're working so hard at and spending so much time and money on might be counterproductive.
I don't think your pdoc is telling you that T's don't like clingy clients. I think she's telling you and SHE doesn't like clingy patients. Whatever dependency you have on your T right now has been fostered by him, I think, in a very deliberate way. I've always thought from reading your posts for quite awhile, that he's really tried to encourage your dependency, my guess is because he thinks you need that attachment to feel comfortable telling him your stories. So he's in the best situation to talk to you about clinginess, not her.
Also, with regard to the complications of your life, you could look at it as your pdoc does, that your life is too complicated for you to deal now with intensive therapy. Or you could look at this as being a situation where, with all of your life's complications, you at least have one arena, therapy, where the focus is on you and where you're not trying to meet the needs of everyone else.
I would be very honest and open with your T about what your pdoc said about clingy clients and why you worry about this so much. I think harboring those fears in silence for so long, retarded my therapy by impairing any opportunity I might have to strengthen my attachment to my T. Bringing those fears out in the open with my own T has helped lessen them tremendously. I still struggle with them sometimes, but I'm so much more secure in my relationship with her than I used to be, and I think a lot of that security comes from not constantly thinking that she's looking for ways to jettison me as a client.
Mair
Posted by Susan47 on March 14, 2005, at 10:25:19
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
I read the first and last posts only on your thread, Daisy, and what strikes me the most is the similarity in feeling the need for your therapist, and what your pdoc said about opening up stuff you're not ready for. She's not necessarily wrong, and I don't think you should be angry with her because that would be destructive for you. I moved far too quickly, emotionally, with my last T and he did resent me and he did find me too clingy, and it was disastrous because I ended up dangling out there all alone, trying to deal with stuff that was far too devastating for my capacity to handle it. I ended up calling and using what was available, which was of course his answering machine. Never him. He was never available, and he became less and less so as time went on and I became psychotic. I don't believe he had any idea how to support me properly, and I also believe now that he was afraid to be available because I had moved into an emotional place he couldn't touch, he never even saw me going there, it blindsided him. So in that respect, if that were happening with you, your pdoc would have a very good point.
But I did the moving forward without him, and you're doing it with your therapist, so I think you probably are strong enough to open up to him and deal with this stuff, it's good to know though that your pdoc is aware of the pitfalls of opening up too much too soon. You're very strong and your belief that your therapist can help you will get you through, keep trusting him and I believe you'll do really well Daisy. Also, your therapist isn't finding you clingy and he's not resentful of you at all, I can tell. Believe me, I've been where you don't want to go. You're not there and you're not even headed in that direction so don't worry about it anymore.
Posted by Joslynn on March 14, 2005, at 13:12:58
In reply to Visit to pdoc (long), posted by daisym on March 12, 2005, at 23:34:06
Hi!
I don't think it was her place to advise on the "clingy" stuff. Just to use that word (did she use that particular word?) is not very caring.
However, there was one little thing she did say that I have wondered about with some people on this board...the containment between sessions. It does seem like some people (and I am sorry, I forget if it was you or other posters) do struggle a lot with distracting thoughts after the therapy, wondering about what the T thinks, needing calls, etc., and in that case, I wonder if it is too intense, and could just be explored a little more gently or less frequently?
I used to do therapy with a pdoc once a month as well as wkly with a T. That got confusing for a variety of reasons, so now the pdoc visits are only once every two months, and a little shorter. I was in a somewhat opposite sitch than you, where it was the pdoc I had the dependency on, not the T. I did have to ease back, because with me, it was interfering with my mental real estate, e..g., I would think abot it too much and compare men I was dating and my father to pdoc. But my transference was romantic in some ways, which I know yours isn't
The pdoc could have been genuinely concerned, but just doesn't know your case well enough and has a different orientation than your T.
Would you want them to talk to each other, with you present, or no? That is up to you, I don't think they can discuss your case without you signing something.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 14, 2005, at 13:44:14
In reply to This has more me more freaked out than I thought, posted by daisym on March 14, 2005, at 0:13:08
Daisy,
I hope you can check your email while you are gone. I sent you my phone number. I wish I had seen your note about Open earlier in the evening the other night. Please do call if you want. I could use the company, too.And I do think the pdoc inadvertently hit all the right "mother" buttons, just as your T said. I think that's why this is so upsetting. Please keep in mind that this is coming from HER. Your T is providing the corrective emotional experience. Thanks to your pdoc, you two just found more on your plate to correct. That is a real shame.
And that is also the danger for professionals working with trauma who do not know enough about the client or about the skills needed to do this work. I know I've had the discussion with my supervisor that I SO do not want to re-traumatize my clients with a trauma history. He is less concerned about that. So I equate him with your pdoc, as someone who just doesn't get it. Which means I need to find some other situation for the training I need, or I could wind up hurting someone like your pdoc hurt you. That's the last thing I want to do.
I do think it's ignorance on her part. Either that or it's sadistic, in which case you should run like hell.
But we are all still here for you. And so is your T. Come hell or high water. Or fog. :)
gg
Posted by pinkeye on March 14, 2005, at 13:48:07
In reply to This has more me more freaked out than I thought, posted by daisym on March 14, 2005, at 0:13:08
Hi Daisy,
Your therapist does seem wonderful.. and trust him to tell you what is right for you and what is wrong for you.Just be open and upfront about it with him. Tell him that you would never ever want to be causing him irritation, and that if your dependancy ever comes to that point where he resents it and tolerates it for the duty, then he should tell you.
I did that with my old T. I asked him to tell me if he ever found it hard and that I would stop at that point. Till that point I had all the luxury, but after he came back and told me it was little difficult for him - mine because he retired and was no longer even a therapist to anyone, I have stopped.
So you could do the same, and let him know your good intention of not being too clingy to him. But from your old posts, it appeared to me that your T wanted to encourage your dependancy, and wanted to be there for you no matter what - for now. And from what you have said about him, he really seems wonderful and sensitive and very caring, so I am sure you can trust him with all your heart to do what is right for him and for you.
Posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:12:13
In reply to Re: This has more me more freaked out than I thought » daisym, posted by pinkeye on March 14, 2005, at 13:48:07
You took that well, Pinkeye. I would be destroyed if my therapist told me that. I share that with my son. Both of us would rather not ask if we think we might be told no, because no hurts.
Posted by pinkeye on March 14, 2005, at 18:24:04
In reply to Re: This has more me more freaked out than I thought » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:12:13
> You took that well, Pinkeye. I would be destroyed if my therapist told me that. I share that with my son. Both of us would rather not ask if we think we might be told no, because no hurts.
In my case, he asked me to stop writing to him after 3 - 4 months he retired from praciticing. So he was not a therapist to anyone for a long time when he finally asked me to stop as well. I would have perhaps taken it more hard if he was practicing actively and asked me to stop writing. That might have hurt more. But since he was not a therapist to anyone when he finally asked me to stop as well, it didn't hurt that much. It was more than anyone would have done for me - to continue to allow me to write even after he retired from practice - and that was enough for me.
Posted by Shortelise on March 14, 2005, at 20:33:30
In reply to This has more me more freaked out than I thought, posted by daisym on March 14, 2005, at 0:13:08
((Daisy))
I believe that in therapy it can be imperative to experience the kind of dependancy you're experiencing.
I also believe that your T is a really, really good one and that he knows what's going on with you and he knows it's the right thing for you. He knows it's what will untimately help you heal.
This is hard to explain, so bear with me, ok? You are ashamed at feeling so needy. Your T is encouraging you to be so. Why are you ashamed when you are going with the program, so to speak?
And you are in that child place - Are you denying the child the connection?
I want that child to connect, to call, to ask for what she needs. I want her to get as close to getting what she needs as she can.
You know I am nearing the close of my therapy, but when I was there, in that child place where there was so much need and so much pain, I did call, I did leave the message, I did talk with my T when I felt I needed to. Because part of healing that child is to try to understand her needs, and help her overcome her fears and her shame. There is no shame in a child needing to be attached.
Daisy, can you give yourself a bit of a break here? Lay off, ok? Say nice things to yourself, not mean things. Sheesh, woman, haven't you been through enough?
And I'll answer for your T. "Daisy, I won't be gobbled by the work monster, we'll find the time to work together, and together we'll get to a comfortable place for you to work on things with me. I know because you've told me. We'll work through this together."
Hope this helps, Daisy.
ShortE
Posted by daisym on March 15, 2005, at 1:16:00
In reply to Re: This has more me more freaked out than I thought » daisym, posted by Shortelise on March 14, 2005, at 20:33:30
I want to answer each and everyone of you but I need to go to bed. I've been traveling/working since 5am. But I love all the supportive words and I'm taking them in as much as I can.
I didn't call my therapist but he called tonight just to touch base. We only had 5 minutes but it was enough to get calm and to set up a time for tomorrow. I sort of thought I should make it for the whole week but I sorta know I can't. So I'm caving into it. I'll try to talk to him about all this when I get back. Tomorrow I think needs to be sheer support for other stuff.
I find sleeping alone in hotel rooms disturbing these days. I guess i just don't feel secure. I'm glad i can log on here and read or post if I need to.
Thanks for answering for him, ShortE. He would smile, I'm sure. He has said straight out that he has encouraged the attachment, as much to keep me in therapy as well as to provide a deep connection to keep me together when things get shaky. He does seem to think he knows what he is doing. It's still hard though.
I'm sending you all out a super big hug. I wish you were actually here to keep me company. I feel very young and sort of lost. I find I'm wishing for my stuffed animal too...
*sigh*
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.