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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 10derHeart on January 31, 2005, at 17:56:25
I'm trying to decide whether or not to "force" myself to tell new T. something. I just don't seem to be able to sort it out, and it goes round and round in my head. It's very important because it's a huge piece of the puzzle that led old T. and me to the place where I began to really understand a major unconscious motivation for most of my behavior when getting in and out of relationships (or avoiding them all together). But, it's so hard. It's shameful to me (though old T. did not like me using that term) and weird, too. Not only child-like (which I'm learning to accept is OK), but childish, too. The worst thing is, this was (almost) the hardest thing I ever did in therapy - to tell old T. what I'd been doing. I had to write it in a 2-page-letter. Even as bonded as we were, I couldn't look at him and say it. Then, because he handled it so beautifully, much great insight and more closeness came out of that day. It was my best session in the entire 8 months we worked together. It was the first time I ever cried in front of him. It changed everything, then three weeks later, he left :-( Anyway, after starting as terrifying, it turned out as an extraordinary moment in therapy for me. I doubt I'll ever forget it.
So, the thing is, although my rational side can see this is too essential not to explain to new T., my heart says don't share this - it belongs to old T. alone and this will "spoil" it, or something? Oh, I am not explaining this well at all...
My sessions (2 months now) have been superficial for several reasons, and I think telling this might "break through" that feeling somewhat. I don't know or trust him yet. He is NOT old T. and will never be anything like him. (that's good and bad) - psychologist vs. psychiatrist; extrovert (now) vs. introvert (then). So, the holding back of this one story isn't everything, but, but..oh I don't know.
I realize I haven't said *what* the infomation is. I don't mind too much - we've had whole threads on it here, and some of you may recall I did share it. Um, without all the gory details, I am a client who drove by old T's office and home repeatedly, and a few times watched him leave work. That's all. No following, no calls, mail, stake-outs (sp.?) - nothing more. But I did this for a good 6 months, sometimes 2-3x a day. Enough said there (okay, uh, it IS hard to talk about still). My desparate need to do this, and our talking about it a lot before he left, put my therapy with old T. on such a deep level, it was amazing (totally unresolved grief and deep issues with repeated abandonment started seeping out...) But now, it seems so private, and although I like new T. a lot, that special *something* isn't there. I'm not sure I can stand him knowing this - now or ever.
I'm not afraid he'll think I'm going to "stalk" him or anything. I am so NOT bonded to him, nor do I have deep feelings for him to where any such behavior ever crosses my mind. In fact, I couldn't care less where he lives, etc. And we understand each other well enough so I know he will realize I don't have emotions like that in me for him. So that's not it. I just....don't feel close enough to tell. But, we're getting to a point where he's knows so much about deaths and people leaving me suddenly, and me clinging onto people (even my own child) for dear life..and then they'll be this gaping hole where this has got to be told. It was the culmination of every fear and longing of my life - me trying to connect and reassure myself old T. would still be there. Really, nothing will entirely make sense as to why I ever turned up in new T's office, grieving for old T. so painfully, without telling him this crucial part of how I related to old T.
I want my therapy to move on, not go in circles. He is quite laid back and client-centered, so this is probably mainly up to me. Am I pushing too quickly? It's only been eight sessions. Maybe I should just *try* to say it, and if it won't come out, it's not time yet? Sorry I'm so very rambling, but I had to get this out of my head. It's not huge, but, then again, inside of me, it sort of is. - 10derHeart
PS - It's so ironic - the thing to do would be to ask old T. We are still in touch, but both limiting that quite severely (another interesting part to my story for a future thread) It's funny, because he would be able to help. But, gee, if we could still speak on a therapeutic basis, he'd still be here and I wouldn't need to fight for some kind of relationship with new T., now would I? oh, bother.
Posted by Susan47 on January 31, 2005, at 18:41:08
In reply to To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long), posted by 10derHeart on January 31, 2005, at 17:56:25
Posted by mair on January 31, 2005, at 19:27:10
In reply to To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long), posted by 10derHeart on January 31, 2005, at 17:56:25
I'm hardly the model for this. My past practice is to avoid revealing things until I literally can't anymore. I had one issue in therapy that had to come out because I realized that for the previous couple of sessions, I'd sit there talking to my T about 1 thing, while all I was really thinking about was this other matter. It was totally getting in the way of progress.
I think your gut will tell you. 8 sessions seems a little quick to me and I don't think you can force the depth you're looking for. On the other hand, if it seems relevant and in context of what you're discussing, it's probably the right time.
But again, I'm pretty much of a wimp about things like this.
Mair
Posted by Daisym on January 31, 2005, at 23:09:06
In reply to Re: To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long), posted by mair on January 31, 2005, at 19:27:10
My therapist would say something like, "if you are spending a fair amount of time thinking about something then it is important and you should share it." And then we would talk about the motivation behind keeping it a secret as well as why some part of me would want to share whatever it is.
That said -- I think you need to examine your own hopes about sharing this. If, as Mair pointed out, you want to use this as a tool to "recapture" a moment, it may end up being painful. You've barely begun to work with your new Therapist. Is it possible that those old fears of abandonment are up for some reason with this new guy?
Whatever you decide to do, I hope you know that your behavior was understandable and you shouldn't be ashamed of yourself. We all do things that seem inconsistent with our better judgement at times. I doubt your new therapist would be shocked.
This sounds like a really hard decision. I hope you don't struggle with it too long.
Hugs from me,
Daisy
Posted by 10derHeart on January 31, 2005, at 23:57:08
In reply to Re: To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long), posted by mair on January 31, 2005, at 19:27:10
Mair,
Thanks for slogging through all that to be able to answer. I really just spilled my thoughts.
Don't know what my problem is lately. Still adjusting to a new person, and on the surface, think I have a "handle" on it. Yeah, right.
Liked your words about forcing depth. A lot. Made me think I may be unconsciously looking for a bit of the atmosphere that I used to have with old T. I miss it so much sometimes. That could be part of the reason I feel so pressured to tell all, right now. Like magic will happen.
Thanks for getting me to think some more. I know about holding back forever. I sure used to do that, too. Now the "gates" have been open a while, both old and new Ts probably wanted me to just *stop* at times. But it depends on the topic, of course.
As you said, if I follow my instincts as I usually do, it'll work out. Therapy just feels so odd lately.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 1, 2005, at 0:16:03
In reply to Re: To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long), posted by Daisym on January 31, 2005, at 23:09:06
Thanks, Daisy. All good words.
It's so funny, because I think the recapturing thing rings true, BUT, it's really the last thing I want. First, these two Ts are so VERY different in their *feel*, if you will, that it would be impossible anyway. And different is good, I think, because I believe in time, I'll learn different things with this T. because he is so different. But - point was - I want to keep the "old stuff" in the past. It's precious to me and very , very fresh still. Don't want the same "flavor" to sessions with this T. Or do I?
Will really have to ponder, and maybe talk about it, too.It's not so terribly difficult. I just was full of pent up emotion when I posted. I am a "blurter", so it'll come out in a rush when my mind/heart says *go.* On Babble and in therapy.
No, I won't shock him. We've had times already where I cried for 15 straight minutes talking about old T. I came to him brokenhearted and raw about it for weeks. That part is much more stable now. Healing over slowly. He truly seems to totally understand the bond and the attachment. He impressed the he** out of me with that, in fact. He seems pretty much comfortable with all that, but I'm not. Not yet. And I sense a bit of impatience in him about that (old T.) and a whiff of jealousy/resentment..? Just a tiny bit. He's said forcefully it's okay, talk about him any time, cry as much as you need to, tell me any stories you want. But still... ?
So maybe that's all mixed up in why I don't know what to say when about past stuff with old T. I see him Wed. morning. I'll maybe figure out a plan by then. You helped. :-)
Posted by messadivoce on February 1, 2005, at 1:22:58
In reply to To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long), posted by 10derHeart on January 31, 2005, at 17:56:25
It's good to see you posting again!! I missed you. I've been wondering how you're making out with new T. Alas, I wish I had something meaningful to say, but I don't. The time you spend with your new T can never recapture the intensity of the bond with your old T, a fact which I'm quickly learning myself.
It's true you've only had 8 sessions with this man. That's not a lot, and maybe it will take some more time before it's the "right" time. But in the end I hope you are able to tell him. You say you don't want your therapy to go in circles...but what if circles are eventually the way out? Maybe you are moving in circles while at the same time moving in a direction....does this make any sense? Two steps forward, one step back. It almost feels like a dance that must go through all the steps to completion.
Anyway, hugs to you, and please know that you're not alone in this struggle. I am still here wading through this as well, and sometimes I wonder if I will ever find my way out. I try to imagine my old T behind me, because he was the one who started me on this journey, and in a way, will be the one from who I draw strength to find my way out again.
Feel free to Babblemail me anytime. I could use someone to talk to as well.
Voce
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 1, 2005, at 8:40:35
In reply to To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long), posted by 10derHeart on January 31, 2005, at 17:56:25
I'm going to approach this from an economic standpoint. I believe in order to "get your money's worth" out of therapy, that it behooves you to lay it all on the table, especially since you believe this has proven in the past very important to your therapy. If you do not reveal this, then won't a part of the puzzle be missing? Won't you be withholding information which could prove beneficial to your therapy? And therefore won't you be wasting time and money?
I completely understand your feelings for your old T, but you also arent' helping your current therapeutic relationship by somewhat idealizing your last T, placing him somewhat on a pedestal, and assigning him an untouchable place in your heart with a secret only the two of you can share.
Does this make sense? Believe me, I have been there. It is so easy for me to idealize people from my past at the expense of people in my present.
What do you think?
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 8:58:00
In reply to To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long), posted by 10derHeart on January 31, 2005, at 17:56:25
There is something to be said both ways.
Things like that I usually save for when both parties are fairly comfortable with each other. Even so, I brought board situations up long before I brought up anything personal. He acted carefully and answered in such a way that left an opening for me to talk about me.
Some therapists are really weird about those things, and there have been some bad outcomes.
But if you feel comfortable enough, and you feel the time is right, I don't know why you shouldn't tell. I think I'd trust my gut.
Posted by antigua on February 1, 2005, at 12:54:39
In reply to Re: To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long) » Daisym, posted by 10derHeart on February 1, 2005, at 0:16:03
I'm a blurter, too. Secrets had such power when I was child that I never like to keep anything in anymore, so I can "overtell" to the wrong person and agonize over the hurt, embarrassment or whatever. I look forward to when telling is really a choice, and not a compulsion.
just had to join in,
thanks,
antigua
Posted by 10derHeart on February 1, 2005, at 13:22:03
In reply to Re: To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long) » 10derHeart, posted by messadivoce on February 1, 2005, at 1:22:58
Thanks so much. Your whole tone just cheered me up. I've overall been doing so well, I thought. But today and yesterday - yuk. Teary and weak. Maybe just a mini-relapse into missing him and wishing we didn't have to stop and me go through all this "newness." It's a longer story what's bothering me right now, but maybe I will babblemail you later. Quit triggering everyone here with my boring pain - over and over again. :(
Sorry, have to go wash my face and go to a class now and act like I'm *fine." I'm a tremendous actress, really. Especially since it's a psych class with an odd teacher, and I have to bite my tongue a lot, when sometimes I want to argue, cry and scream at her. But,I need the class.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 1, 2005, at 20:12:50
In reply to Re: To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long) » 10derHeart, posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 1, 2005, at 8:40:35
Miss Honey,
I think you are practical and correct and I thank you so very much for taking the time to be honest and "look out for me", so to speak. I always look for your posts because you bring a balance to my own thinking that's often badly needed.
I didn't mean to come across so strongly that I'd *never* tell about the behavior. Of course I will. I guess the question is more when. When is the time right? Maybe I'm overthinking and trying to "coddle" my new T. Give him everything in just the right order so he can understand. Which I recognize as silly, really. He's older and more experienced than old T. He does resonate with me already, but in an entirely different way. I know, as I find myself snapping my head up, saying, "Exactly!" when he tries out an analogy or a metaphor for something I've said. He'll surely understand things no matter how the stories come out.
You're right about the time and money. I told him last week I was frustrated in not knowing what topics to pick, because I couldn't afford the waste time or money. I even wondered if I needed to be there. He said he saw three choices when I felt this way. I can come in and talk about whatever I want each time, and just be patient and see what unfolds. Or, he can be more proactive and ask me some questions (he rarely has so far - only follow up types). Or, I can stop coming and call him if I need him. He said he was NOT in favor of the last one. I told him to please ask his questions next time. I'm curious and maybe finding out what he wants to know will spark some things. (Hmmm, funny how he allowed that session to go 65 minutes so I could finish a painful story..)
Wow, did I digress. Sorry. Yeah, I do still idealize my old T. But I think because I'm so utterly aware of it, it's okay. As far as the pedastal, it's awfully hard to knock him off. He played a huge part in saving my life when I was depressed and suicidal. He handled my termination and the recently wrapped up transitional stuff by email beautifully. I kept trying to get him to let me down. But of course I know it would have happened if we'd kept working together. You're still wise, though. I have to guard against that holding me back. If nothing else, old T. would be frustrated if I wasn't delving into issues because of something to do with him.
Oh, my. Therapy in 13 hours - hope I can make it worthwhile.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 1, 2005, at 20:25:41
In reply to Re: To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long), posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 8:58:00
I hadn't thought of that really. Having a bad outcome, I mean. Probably because old T. (and I recently found out in 16+ years he's never had any experience with the stuff I was doing last year) handled it so maturely and gently, I'm more than a bit spoiled. Hmmm. Although, because new T. would *know* I don't feel attached, or missing him or wanting to do anything to be sure he'll still be there, he certainly would have no reason to be worried. And if he really was, well, I'd encourage him to call old T. and talk to him about this. Really, I would. Because he trusted me implicitly and has said that's why he "got over" any discomfort or concern for safety or "line crossing." Because he came to know my integrity about this area - that I felt it transcended the rest of therapy, and once told, had to be 100% told - and it was. He knows every single regressive, toddler-separating-doing rapprochement-over-again thing I ever did. In all the yucky details. That's what made it so okay for us both.
You're right. It all comes down to the gut. I just need to feel a bit more connected first. Could happen any time, I guess. New relationships are exhausting sometimes. Thanks a lot, Dinah.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 1, 2005, at 20:29:59
In reply to Re: To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long) » 10derHeart, posted by antigua on February 1, 2005, at 12:54:39
Please join in any time, especially as a fellow blurter! ;)
I know what you mean to some extent. Don't recall having those childhood experiences, but as an adult, used to keep ALL my real feelings a secret, and was miserable. Much better since I started dealing with the reality of how I and others really feel and think. It's refreshing, once you practice a lot and get past the insecurity and fear.
Secrets can be quite awful, yes. Thanks for sharing that thought with me.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 1, 2005, at 20:31:57
In reply to ((((10derHeart)))) (nm), posted by Susan47 on January 31, 2005, at 18:41:08
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 2, 2005, at 10:50:32
In reply to Re: To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long) » Miss Honeychurch, posted by 10derHeart on February 1, 2005, at 20:12:50
10derheart,
I hope you know that flattery will get you everywhere with me! Calling me wise is the ultimate compliment for me and I thank you!
I'm glad you are planning on telling your new T. I suppose I was uncertain as to whether you were going to tell at all. I think you'll know when the time is right
I am just sensitive about the money issue because I feel I have spent a lot of time in therapy not really getting to the core of things, basically spending $35 a pop to talk about things which never were a big deal to me and waiting MONTHS to bring stuff up. I feel I wasted those early sessions.
But, I didn't know my T very well yet. OUr therapeutic relationship was still young. It was only AFTER I felt he accepted me 100% that I started putting my cards on the table. Maybe this is just the way therapy works. There are a lot of questionable therapists out there, it's probably wise to take a wait and see attitude.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 3, 2005, at 12:40:51
In reply to To Tell or Not to Tell New T.(long), posted by 10derHeart on January 31, 2005, at 17:56:25
My session yesterday went really well. I managed to tell T. several things I didn't think I could get out. Not so much what I posted about here, but other important stuff. I didn't tell about the past driving-by episodes with old T. yet. But, I hinted around it, and he knows there's something I'm working on telling.
He was good about everything. Sort of struck a nice balance between being passive and then pushing some. I thought it was interesting when at one point - after I think I'd been crying off and on and struggling with why these "toddler- needs" (my silly expression) have to feel so shameful and so forth - he abruptly said, "How difficult would you like me to make it for you?"
Totally missing the meaning, I asked him what "it" was. He answered "this session." Now that may sound weird, or even bad, but for me it was quite satisfying. It meant he sees I am probably ready for some intense stuff (which I am), yet still respectfully gave me a choice as to timing. It also felt like he was showing me that he can be proactive, can be less the "let's have the client direct every second of the session" therapist I've seen so far. I liked that. My answer was to make it as difficult as he liked, and I'd complain if it went too far.
We had some needed conversation about former T., too, which will really help from now on. Another positive sign of him "getting" me was that he made a reference to the fact I probably found it extrememly comforting and wonderful - the way former T. looked at me. That's absolutely correct, BUT, I was utterly surprised because I've NEVER said a word about how former T. looked at me. Ever. (To be sure, I asked, and he agreed I'd never said it - even checked over some brief notes from earlier sessions) So, he could "fill that in" from my other descriptions of our relationship. For me, that kind of empathy and listening skill inspires confidence.
Wish I'd written in my journal afterwards, because we did start some deeper work than ever before, but alas - I can't remember the darn specifics :( I hate that. But the overall emotional state was very good. I'm encouraged and calmer.
I feel very blessed - to have found this T., to still know my old T., and for each and every Babbler. :) - 10der
Posted by shrinking violet on February 3, 2005, at 17:56:58
In reply to Update/Saw T. Yesterday, posted by 10derHeart on February 3, 2005, at 12:40:51
Posted by 10derHeart on February 3, 2005, at 22:45:32
In reply to I'm so glad that things went well, good for you! (nm) » 10derHeart, posted by shrinking violet on February 3, 2005, at 17:56:58
Hi SV,
Thanks! I appreciate the support. It was a good and hopeful thing, for sure.
I've been following your thread, too. I love cats and have one 13-year old who THINKS he's a kitten still. Acts like a baby, too! But I envy you the *real* kitten - they are so sweet.
I'll bet things tomorrow will be absolutely fine - I like the sound of your T. a lot. No wonder you say she's the best. (Now see, I am one of the folks still partially grieving over loss of old T. (who for me WAS undoubtedly *the best*, and your thread didn't trouble me at all - felt good to read someone else having that special experience :))
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 10:06:54
In reply to Update/Saw T. Yesterday, posted by 10derHeart on February 3, 2005, at 12:40:51
I like that as well. It actually seems to me to fit with the client directed therapy goal. My therapist does more or less the same thing, and he's big on the client being in charge of the therapy.
For example, he pushed more today than normal, but a couple of minutes in, he told me he was doing that and asked if it was ok. I know if I had told him no, he'd have backed off. It's a good strategy with me, since it makes me feel like I have an investment in it not going very badly if I agreed to it.
Posted by antigua on February 4, 2005, at 10:19:51
In reply to Re: Update/Saw T. Yesterday » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 10:06:54
The fact that some Ts will "push" their clients sounds good to me. Mine is so concerned that I direct where we go (or maybe it's just that I'm stupidly resistent to where she wants me to go!) that sometimes I get frustrated and wish she WOULD push me.
Oh well, her way seems to work but it can be OH SO Frustrating.
I'm basically very happy at how things are going right now. I'm in that peaceful lull after experiencing a great insight and getting ready for the next bomb to drop because I trust her more. My T is away this week so I've been enjoying the break, not thinking about "all those things."
peace to all,
antigua
Posted by 10derHeart on February 5, 2005, at 15:27:12
In reply to Re: Update/Saw T. Yesterday » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2005, at 10:06:54
You know, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I hadn't realized that him asking me how hard I wanted a session to be was really a question about what *I* wanted to happen next. Duh.
I think I described it poorly. It was maybe more the first time he'd actually taken the tact of, "I'm thinking of doing something and I'm telling you about it right now." Before, he's been a terrific listener, warm, funny, friendly, and refreshingly quick to *get* what has gone on with my former T. He's also come up with excellent analogies and examples. (In other words, he keeps up with me intellectually. Arrogant, perhaps, but I'm pretty intelligent, and just can't abide doing this kind of therapy work with someone who seems to act...well,...dumb. I'm terrible, but there it is.) Anyway, he was always responding to something I said. This time, he just proposed something sort of on his own. That's what I liked.
Just wish to heck I could remember more than 50% of the session. But, that's an indication it was digging a bit deeper, 'cause that used to happen with old T. and I recognize the similar type of *blanking out* after a session. Frustrating.
Thanks again for your insight. It's always so very much appreciated.
Posted by 10derHeart on February 5, 2005, at 15:39:01
In reply to Pushing, posted by antigua on February 4, 2005, at 10:19:51
Hi Antigua,
Glad to see you posting. You sound like you're in a good spot right now. Resting is important.
I guess maybe for each of us, and our therapists, it's a fluid process. Some pushing to the edge of the deep pool to peer in, some backing away from the water so as not to slip and fall in, and some just floating down the middle safely and calmly. (Gee, where the heck did these water images come from today?) I was wondering, have you ever said, or even hinted to your T. that you'd like her to push a bit? Sounds like most of the time it's okay she doesn't, but that it also seems to keep stuff at a snail's pace...did I get that right?
But maybe with the tough things I recall you're working on, a snail's pace is a very good thing. Take care and thanks for chiming in. :-) -- 10der
Posted by 10derHeart on February 5, 2005, at 15:42:54
In reply to Re: Pushing » antigua, posted by 10derHeart on February 5, 2005, at 15:39:01
You may be resistant sometimes. I'm sure we all must be. And I know I can't even honestly tell whether I am or not. But there's no way you're *stupidly* anything.
Didn't want you to think you'd gotten away with any possibility of calling yourself that word ;)
This is the end of the thread.
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