![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 7:21:32
This is very long...
I am having a problem with my 16 year old daughter (still). 6 more tardies before late January and she will lose credit for the US History course (a semester course) she has been taking. She is VERY able to be late 6 times in the next couple of weeks. We have tried everything. I have screamed, I have not screamed. I have woken her up earlier, I have sent her to bed earlier. I have taken her car away. Two different therapists have been helping with this one (mine, and one she and I saw together).
Friday my therapist said "What you are doing isn't working. So you need to try something else". I had driven her to school (and got her there on time) for the previous 9 school days. She was tardy to History (1st period) 6 of those days. I had to agree. He suggested (in an uncharacteristicly directive way) that I had done what I could and that this was her problem now. He wanted me to be "flexible" and change course (this is very hard for me...). So I told her she was in danger of losing credit for History, but that I had done what I could (and what was my responsibility) and the rest was up to her. She said "Do you think I *want* to be late for class??" I said "Yes, I do".
Well, that set me off. It reminded me too much of when my therapist said "You *want* to stay depressed." I told him that I didn't, but I didn't know how to "fix" it. All he would say was that I must want to stay depressed, or I would stop being so depressed. I deal really poorly with not understanding something (anything). I want *so* badly to do the "right" thing, but if I don't know what the "right" thing is, how can I do it? The ultimate terror for me is to know that I'm failing at something, ask for help (which is incredibly hard for me), and then be refused the help.
What if I'm doing that to my daughter? So I wrote her a long email trying to explain what unconscious motivation is. So that if she was feeling the frustration and abandonment that I've felt that she would know she could come to me and I would help her. My friends suggested that maybe I shouldn't send it to her - that it was too much like a Psychology lecture.
So I talked about this in therapy yesterday, along with a dream I had about "bad things happening to a friend on my watch". I wasn't talking about my daughter or my friend. I was talking about me - how alone and unsupported I feel in my current struggle (which is unrelated to my daughter). How abandoned I felt when he said "You must *want* to be depressed".
Fortunately, talking about my daughter was a way to talk about *my* issues, but be a little removed from them. He said that my assessment that she was either consciously being late ("I'll show Mom that she can't control me - she can get me to school on time, but I can *still* be late for class!"), or that there was some unconscious motivation (rebellion against my parents' mandate for good school performance) was too "black and white". I was able to convince him that I really didn't understand the grey, and he tried to explain it to me with this metaphor: She is driving on a three lane highway - conscious motivations are on one side, unconscious on the other, but there is grey area (where the motivations are nearly or just barely conscious) in the middle. She is swerving between the three lanes.
I know that I am trying to understand this grey area for myself by understanding my daughter. It is too painful to actually work on trying to understand myself.
I just barely understand the unconscious part. Can anyone help explain this grey area to me?
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2005, at 7:54:37
In reply to Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between, posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 7:21:32
I have to confess that conscious and unconscious are one of those trig type of psychology concepts to me. :( I understand the overview but the nuances of grey escape me. It seems like you'd either be aware of something or not aware, or maybe peripherally aware.
I can see why you'd be upset at the "You want to stay depressed comment", especially if it was given without ways to change it. It's an empowering statement, in a way, I suppose. Since if you choose to feel that way, you can choose differently.
But I'd get up and walk out if my therapist said something like that. The closest he ever got was asking me about secondary gains. And let's see. That was in the context of OCD. So while I got angry, I can now see that there were secondary gains. OCD is very useful for someone who tends to be rather scatterbrained but who needs to be not scatterbrained for work. Also it probably distracted me from the Grendel's mother of emotional instability lying under the Grendel of OCD.
So to me that was why I "wanted" to keep my OCD, perhaps. It wasn't a fair trade though in the end. But he wouldn't have kept me as a client if he had actually put it that way.
So perhaps there are other ways to say the same thing to your daughter? Or yourself? More loving and accepting ways? Because "want" doesn't seem as right as "think you need".
Posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 11:21:20
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on January 4, 2005, at 7:54:37
I get so confused.
We have been able to have productive talks about secondary gains to remaining depressed. I probably did need to be hit over the head since I honestly didn't believe that I *had* any unconscious motivations.
But the whole things gets so painful when I'm being asked to do something I don't know how to do. I'm *willing* to do whatever it is that I need to do, but I can't do it if I don't know what "it" is.
My daughter was talking with a friend yesterday. She said "Last year I lost credit for an English class because I was tardy too much, and now I'm taking that class over. Now I'm in the same situation with History - not as bad, but in the same situation". She talked like it was completely out of her control. Isn't that how it feels when the motivations are unconscious?
I don't know if the topic of this thread is my daughter's dilemma, or conscious vs. unconscious, or fear of failure, or frustration because of not knowing what to do, or abandonment (because the people who "know" what to do refuse to tell me - even though my therapist (and my previous one) insists that he isn't withholding advice/information). I just know that this situation feels lousy.
Posted by Shortelise on January 4, 2005, at 11:54:42
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 11:21:20
Hm. I learn things so often here.
First of all, my shrink has had to tell me things point blank sometimes. Ouch, But he mostly seems to pick his moments carefully so I am receptive. Mostly. He has screwed up. We still disagree about the one time he told me something when I was in an awful state and it felt way more destructive than helpful.
I was always "tardy" in school.
I really feel for you - I find myself saying that a lot here at psychobabble, but it's true as often as I say it. This must be incredibly frustrating.
Maybe at 16, it is time for your daughter to make her own decisions on some things. Could it be that she needs to be late so she can blame that for whatever failures she is experiencing?
If she was my kid, honestly, I'd tell her if she loses history, she loses her car. I don't care if she has to take buses or cadge rides from friends in the blue cold dead of winter. I'd sell that car if she screws up History. Or remove whatever part it is they remove in the movies so it won't start, give the part to your best friend for safe keeping, and park the thing in the garage until next fall. Or sell it. I'd sell it.
Is it possible that your therapist really doesn't know what you should do? Mine often doesn't, but he helps me think it through. Have you tried "role playing"?
Are you both having the same struggle?
The thing about choosing to be depressed, yikes. That's a place where the conscious vs. the unconscious in living colour! I am watching my mother choose depression, she's 70+ and I am nearly 50. She chooses to see the glass is half empty, chooses not to not to do the things that would make her feel better. She is isolating herself socially, and gives in instead of expressing her opinion. She is passive aggressive to an extreme. She repeats to herself over and over why she CAN'T do things. Her mantra at the moment is that she is going senile. She is no more senile than I am. It's her greatest fear, and because she is isolating herself, has little social contact, never does anything that challenges her mind, and spends her time obsessing. Well, there's your classic self-fulfilling prophecy. She is so full of donkey dookey. It makes me angry.
Maybe your daughter is angry at you.
What would happen if you told her that you would make a change if she would change her tardy behavior? What if you were to ask her what drives her the most crazy, like, I don't know, some sort of depressed behavior of yours - or something that bugs her. Not anything as broad as "stop being depressed" but something more specific. Maybe she could give you a choice between a few things.
I am tempted to delete a bunch of this long message, but I guess no one is obliged to read it in its entirety.
Good luck with this. One thing I do wonder is what is the consequence of her losing her history credit? Is there any possibility she could want whatever it is?
ShortE
Posted by bimini on January 4, 2005, at 12:29:30
In reply to Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between, posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 7:21:32
I can't see the contours for all the grey area. I observe and pick a model which works best. My daughter is chronically tardy as well, not confined to the first, but to all classes. I have been involved, talked to teachers, screamed, punished, nothing helped. I urged the Principal to maintain an iron hand handeling her as she will charm anyone like a Siren until they submit to her magic spells. So followed failing courses due to tardiness, after school and Saturday detentions and suspensions. No avail!
Then I noticed this peculiar pattern of punctuality when she is responsible for others' tardiness. As long she picks up friends or car pooles with others to school, tardiness dissapears. She is never later for her job either, she is early! Hmmm. I have leaned back and try to detect other templates.
bimini
Posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 12:30:41
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » fallsfall, posted by Shortelise on January 4, 2005, at 11:54:42
Thanks for your wonderful response!
>
> Maybe at 16, it is time for your daughter to make her own decisions on some things. Could it be that she needs to be late so she can blame that for whatever failures she is experiencing?She is doing fine in the class. She tends to be 30 seconds after the bell.
>
> If she was my kid, honestly, I'd tell her if she loses history, she loses her car. I don't care if she has to take buses or cadge rides from friends in the blue cold dead of winter. I'd sell that car if she screws up History. Or remove whatever part it is they remove in the movies so it won't start, give the part to your best friend for safe keeping, and park the thing in the garage until next fall. Or sell it. I'd sell it.
>
This is tempting, but somehow long term agony for her doesn't feel like it would be helpful. That would just make her angry, and hopeless. I did tell her that she couldn't drive the last 2 weeks in December - those are the 2 weeks she was tardy 6 times. Didn't seem too effective. She and I are big into power struggles. She is the only person I know who is as stubborn as I am.> Is it possible that your therapist really doesn't know what you should do? Mine often doesn't, but he helps me think it through. Have you tried "role playing"?
>
He freely admits that he doesn't know what to do about my daughter. What he *does* know (and he is right) is that what I've been doing doesn't work. Right now, his focus (I think) is more on teaching me how to change direction in the middle - to *say* "this isn't working, I need to do something else" than it is on getting her to be on time. And I can't say that I disagree with him on those priorities. Continuing what I was doing was doomed.
> Are you both having the same struggle?
>
"Both" meaning my therapist and me or my daughter and me? Either could be interesting...
> The thing about choosing to be depressed, yikes. That's a place where the conscious vs. the unconscious in living colour! I am watching my mother choose depression, she's 70+My sympathy to you and to your mother. Sounds like she sees things as hopeless.
>
> Maybe your daughter is angry at you.I know that she is. That's one reason we went to a therapist together, but she isn't ready to admit that she is angry.
>
> What would happen if you told her that you would make a change if she would change her tardy behavior? What if you were to ask her what drives her the most crazy, like, I don't know, some sort of depressed behavior of yours - or something that bugs her. Not anything as broad as "stop being depressed" but something more specific. Maybe she could give you a choice between a few things.
>
I don't think so, I think that would make her feel like she was responsible for *my* progress. I don't want to place that burden on her.
> I am tempted to delete a bunch of this long message, but I guess no one is obliged to read it in its entirety.I'm so glad you didn't delete it!
>
> Good luck with this. One thing I do wonder is what is the consequence of her losing her history credit? Is there any possibility she could want whatever it is?She will have to take the semester over next year. She has to pass this class to graduate. I don't think she is afraid to graduate - she is talking about college etc. US History is not her favorite subject, I can't imagine that she *wants* to take it again!
Thanks,
Falls.
Posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 13:32:44
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between, posted by bimini on January 4, 2005, at 12:29:30
Sounds hopeful!! And it sounds like your daughter and mine could have a close tardy competition.
My daughter is even late for her dance class...
Peer pressure does seem more effective than parental pressure.
Thanks for letting me know she isn't the only one!
Posted by littleone on January 4, 2005, at 14:55:04
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » Shortelise, posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 12:30:41
> > Good luck with this. One thing I do wonder is what is the consequence of her losing her history credit? Is there any possibility she could want whatever it is?
>
> She will have to take the semester over next year. She has to pass this class to graduate. I don't think she is afraid to graduate - she is talking about college etc. US History is not her favorite subject, I can't imagine that she *wants* to take it again!Falls, there are other things she's getting out of this though. Firstly is a lot of attention from you/teachers/whatever. Also, sometimes kids will act out if their parents aren't getting on. An unconscious way for them to keep the parents together, ie the parents have to unite to fix the kid's problems. Not sure if that's an issue for you.
I think you need to look at Shortelise's question from a broader sense.
Posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 15:58:42
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » fallsfall, posted by littleone on January 4, 2005, at 14:55:04
Good point.
Her dad and I have been separated for 5 years. We don't collaborate too much. We agree she shouldn't be tardy. But she sleeps at my house, so it is my job to get her to school. She might be trying to get us to work together, but it isn't working much...
I know she is angry that I left her dad. She even says that she is angry about that.
She went into therapy this fall, and the therapist ended up seeing us together. The original reason to go to therapy was because she was tardy too much last year.
I was hoping that we could get to some of these other issues in that context, but she wasn't interested.
Your point is well taken.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 4, 2005, at 18:48:45
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » fallsfall, posted by Shortelise on January 4, 2005, at 11:54:42
I do not know if I am going to be of much help to you but I was a lot like your daughter at that age..I was late and skipped class a lot..even whole days many many whole days....It can be a battle of the wills and you will not win like my folks never did...I had HAD to suffer the consequences of my own actions and got booted out of school for a whole semester. I made it up in a correspondence school. Now I am SURE my mom and dad suffered for this <I was home more and it was an embarrassment to them and who knows what else> but that gray for you may be to allow her to grow up and suffer the consequences so she learns to understand and process why there are rules and we have authority. You have from what I read done all you can but shackle her to a chair in that class...and if you did she will bring a hacksaw if shes as willful as I was/am :) I do not think you can do anymore. Its like almost following an alcoholic...you can only do it so much till the issue is more yours than theirs....Your T was a creep for the comment to you did you ever ask for clarification. Best of luck and HUGS
Posted by Aphrodite on January 4, 2005, at 19:29:41
In reply to Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between, posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 7:21:32
I think, like Dinah, I would have been upset by accusation that I could change being depressed if I wanted to. I think it's interesting that you found a parallel between how your T sees you and how you see your daughter. It reminds me of how patient T's must be. I'm sure they can sit there and see if the client would only do X or understand Y, he/she wouldn't have all of this misery. But a patient T like a patient parent has to sit back and let the person figure it out for themselves. The difference is that a parent's need to make everything OK for the child is much more powerful and goes on 24 hours a day. It sounds like your daughter is lucky to have you and all of your concern and involvement. I hope she will appreciate it someday, sooner rather than later. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time.
Posted by daisym on January 4, 2005, at 23:41:19
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » Shortelise, posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2005, at 12:30:41
I'm not sure I can add anything here that hasn't been said, but I want to add my support for dealing with a teen.
As far as conscious and unconscious goes, the whole thing can make you dizzy. I think I spend too much time trying to figure out my "real" motivations that I don't believe in anything conscious anymore! I drive myself crazy because I can only see grey, there are always at least 2 sides and more than one right answer.
I've been trying to think of a good metaphor but I can't tonight. I'll keep workng at it.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2005, at 7:07:59
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » fallsfall, posted by daisym on January 4, 2005, at 23:41:19
A number of people have commented on my therapist's statement that I "want to be depressed". I certainly heard his statement as harsh and critical - blaming (but then again, I hear everything as a criticism...). And when he refused my answer that I didn't want to be depressed, that I was doing everything I could think of to get out of the depression, I did feel abandoned by him. He was blaming me for being depressed and offering no solution. It was awful.
BUT. That doesn't mean that he was wrong. Perhaps he could have worded it more nicely - but maybe if he had protected the message with soft trappings I wouldn't have gotten the message at all. And it was a message worth getting for a couple of reasons.
First, it prompted some very honest and important conversations about what I was *getting* from being depressed. As ShortElise and Littleone mentioned (but in reference to my daughter), sometimes the "rewards" of a particular behavior are not the obvious ones. I don't want to go into the particular secondary gains that I have - it is still a very tender subject for me. But my therapist and I have talked extensively about "losing therapy" - either because he won't see me because I'm "well", or because insurance won't pay for it. Identifying and voicing these fears has been really helpful.
Second, he made a convincing case that severe depressions don't last for 10 years. That depression comes and goes - yet mine just keeps coming. So why is that? He opened up the conversation to "considering the possibility" that I *did* want to be depressed - even though every cell in my body screams that I don't. This opened up a discussion about conscious and unconscious motivations. It was a pretty amazing discussion, because I truly believed that I had no unconscious motivations. So there was a lot of learning (very painful learning) that went on (and still goes on) to understand what "unconscious" means, and to accept that I might "want" things that I don't know that I "want".
The bottom line is that I *do* feel better these days, and I *am* doing better (no small matter after 10 years). And I credit his blunt, cold, hurtful comment that I "want to be depressed" to these improvements.
Could he have used a smaller hammer? One wrapped in something soft? Perhaps. But perhaps that is what he and my previous therapist had been doing for 10 years.
Do I still feel hurt when I think about that comment? You bet.
Some of you say that you would have walked out if your therapist made such a comment. I am a very dependent patient - and my therapist knows that. It would take a nuclear blast to make me leave. But I also know - very deeply - that my therapist cares about me. And that when he "hurts" me that it is either an error on his part, or that he is "doing it for my own good" - like when you take your child to the doctor for a shot. And I know that if it is an error on his part, that both of us will stick around to work it out. So, no. I didn't walk out. I stayed and tried my hardest to convince him that he was wrong - and in the process I learned some things about life and about myself.
He has learned to sprinkle the word "unconsciously" liberally in front of the word "want". And I have learned to interpret the word "want" in a more general sense. We are communicating more clearly now.
Would this "technique" work for other therapists with their patients? I would not make a blanket recommendation for that! But in my case, I think it has been helpful. Painful, but helpful. But who said that therapy wouldn't be painful?
Posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2005, at 7:12:03
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 4, 2005, at 18:48:45
Thank you for so clearly articulating the point that she is in control of her behavior, and that I am not. Some of this boils down to changing the things we can change, accepting the things we can't change, and knowing how to tell the difference. I feel confident that I have made my opinions/beliefs clearly known. I love the picture of her sitting there with a hacksaw...
Thanks.
Posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2005, at 7:17:14
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » fallsfall, posted by Aphrodite on January 4, 2005, at 19:29:41
Yes, that is one reason I know I could never be a therapist. I can't stand to watch people do things that I "know" are wrong - I have to set them straight (just ask my friends... sigh). But this is all part of my "control" issues...
I do have confidence that my daughter will come out of all of this OK in the end. And I do know that she loves me, and that she knows that I love her.
So I'm trying to give her control of her life, and limit my role to "guidance" - I really am trying!!
Posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2005, at 7:21:56
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » fallsfall, posted by daisym on January 4, 2005, at 23:41:19
I'll share my black and white with you, if you will share your grey with me - hey, wait! Isn't that what we *have* been doing??
Thanks for your support.
I love metaphors these days. Maybe because I'm trying to think about things that seem so foreign to me - the metaphors can make them more concrete. Also, metaphors let me step back and get out of the overwhelming emotion of the situation. Just like talking about my daughter lets me look at my issues, but without drowning in the turmoil of my own issues.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 5, 2005, at 16:23:42
In reply to Re: Conscious, unconscious and the grey in between » Fallen4MyT, posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2005, at 7:12:03
Lol youre welcome trust me I was a bit like her and a hacksaw we would carry :) No matter how grear my parents were and they were kind of Waltons like it didnt matter I was like a mini adult :P and one who made not so wise choices. My parents were extra proud when I went to college and graduted with honors so there is much hope with her. You sound like a great mom who has tried it all...my heart goes out to you now that I am older I can see the parents side much better. Back then I would have conspired with her on how to get out of class more.
> Thank you for so clearly articulating the point that she is in control of her behavior, and that I am not. Some of this boils down to changing the things we can change, accepting the things we can't change, and knowing how to tell the difference. I feel confident that I have made my opinions/beliefs clearly known. I love the picture of her sitting there with a hacksaw...
>
> Thanks.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 5, 2005, at 16:29:26
In reply to Wanting to be depressed, posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2005, at 7:07:59
I didnt tell you I would leave your T if he were mine but I did say he was a creep I think..I said that cause I KNOW how you must have felt as MY T once said I CHOOSE to stay with my husband and thus suffer....I was way P*SSED by that and it still gets me...this was said like a year ago....I feel trapped but....in my less emotional states I see his point ....I have options not all easy or great but.....I can move my life in many directions and I stay static..so I saw some of your Ts wording as something my T would and HAS said :)
Posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 3:48:09
In reply to Wanting to be depressed, posted by fallsfall on January 5, 2005, at 7:07:59
Falls, I know you've been so much better with this therapist. What he's doing works for you. I also know that either he's changed or your perception of him has changed so that he doesn't say things so abruptly anymore.
I would never argue with success.
Maybe he's such a good therapist that he could ascertain that this was something you could tolerate and even needed. And he *was* there for you to help you process what he had said.
So I do understand the dialectics here. What he said hurt and made you feel like you were left on your own to deal with something you didn't understand with insufficient data to help you understand it. (Which may be why you want to give your daughter sufficient data.) But it was something that on another level was empowering to you and made you think, and in the end helped you.
Do I have that right? If I don't have it quite right, I don't mind being corrected. I think what you are saying is important enough that I want to understand it, even if I'm not quite there yet.
There's nothing wrong with dialectics. :) Two contradictory things can be true at once. And I think it's possible to try to address both of them in therapy.
Hopefully he'd also realize that such an approach wouldn't work for everyone, and that he would tailor his approach for someone who just couldn't deal with unvarnished, unpolished, and unbeveled truths. :)
Posted by fallsfall on January 6, 2005, at 8:15:49
In reply to Re: Wanting to be depressed » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2005, at 3:48:09
>So I do understand the dialectics here. What he said hurt and made you feel like you were left on your own to deal with something you didn't understand with insufficient data to help you understand it. (Which may be why you want to give your daughter sufficient data.) But it was something that on another level was empowering to you and made you think, and in the end helped you.
Yes, Dinah. This is exactly right. Thank you for explaining it so well!
It is so hard to explain these things because the visceral reaction to his comment is so strong (both for me, and for those who hear my story) that it's like you can't stay around to hear the other side of the dialectic. I was caught up for months feeling blamed and criticized for "wanting to be depressed". And this is the same reaction that I'm feeling here on Babble ("How could he dare be so cruel - he is supposed to help!"). I guess, though, that I think it is important to explain these things on Babble because it is important to understand that just because something feels bad, doesn't mean that it can't be helpful. The Measles shot at the doctor's is such an obvious metaphor for this.
Another metaphor would be the broad jump. The goal is to go forward as much as you can - that's the object of the game. So when your coach tells you to back up 10 feet, you say "but I want to be going forward, not back! Why should I back up if I want to be going forward?" And every step you take back it seems like this is exactly the wrong thing to do - that you are getting farther away from your goal. Sometimes the coach can explain to you why backing up will help you. Sometimes, he will just keep encouraging you to keep walking back, soothing your anxiety over feeling like it is the wrong thing to do. In my case, I think he tried to do both of these things, but I am just a little stubborn and controlling so I stayed put at the edge of the sandpit - arguing with him. Finally, I think he picked me up and deposited me 10 feet back and said "Run. When you get to the sand pit, then jump". I didn't have a lot of choice at that point. And he was right. (Of course, my first reaction to being dumped 10 feet back was to collapse in tears, wailing "Why do you want to make this harder for me? Why can't you deposit me 10 feet *forward* instead of 10 feet *backwards*?")
This whole thing wouldn't work if I didn't trust both his skill and his caring.
And, of course you are right about this not being an effective technique for everyone. But there is probably some truth in the "no pain, no gain" philosophy (as well as the "too much pain, broken leg" one). It is important for the therapist to understand how much the patient can handle and not push them beyond what they can handle. But change is often (usually?) painful - and we shouldn't expect to make these significant changes in our lives with out some pain in the process. My therapist's job is not to make me feel warm and fuzzy everytime I leave his office (though, once in a while that would be really nice...) - his job is to help me change so I can be happier in the long run.
Posted by mair on January 6, 2005, at 20:03:43
In reply to Re: Wanting to be depressed » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on January 6, 2005, at 8:15:49
Falls - you have such a clear and wonderful way of explaining things. How did it make you feel better (and be better) to accept that he might be right? That's the part I'm not sure I understand.
I've been telling my T for years that maybe I don't want to get better. I reach that conclusion by reasoning that if I did truly want to get better, I'd do things that might make me better - like more regular exercise, or being more vigilant about not allowing myself to come under so much pressure at work, or somehow being better at therapy, or forcing myself to try drugs which might work better than what I take now. She doesn't buy it because she's never been able to come up with any benefits for me. Since I've never really warmed up to getting excited about therapy, she doesn't see endless therapy as a secondary benefit to me.
Maybe I just haven't wanted to go to the painful places I'd probably need to go to make therapy alot more successful. I've never thought of that as a possibility.
Mair
Posted by gardenergirl on January 6, 2005, at 23:53:46
In reply to Re: Wanting to be depressed » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on January 6, 2005, at 8:15:49
falls,
That's a marvelous metaphor...the long jump and needed to back up. I love it!
gg
Posted by fallsfall on January 7, 2005, at 12:20:14
In reply to Re: Wanting to be depressed » fallsfall, posted by mair on January 6, 2005, at 20:03:43
Hi Mair,
Accepting that he might be right, that I might *want* to stay depressed allowed me to look at the reasons why I might want that. As long as I said "Of course I don't want to be depressed" there was no ability to look at what the secondary gains might be - because, of course, there weren't any. How can you discuss something that doesn't exist? But when I finally agreed to "consider the possibility" that I wanted to stay depressed, then I could start to imagine what some of the reasons would be ("lose" therapy, need to compete in the real world, be expected to be competent etc.). Once I could admit to the possible reasons, then we could start to talk about them, and work on them.
So we talked about whether he would kick me out if I was well enough to go back to work (he won't). We talked about whether I could still come often (I go 3X a week now) if I were "better" (I can, and he would recommend that I do). We talked about my need to "prove" that I was depressed by displaying extreme symptoms.
So we were able to talk about some of my fears, and identify which ones were realistic and which ones weren't. This lets me let go of the ones that aren't realistic, which allows me to be more positive about getting better. I will only allow myself to get better if I believe that the advantages of being better outweigh the advantages of being depressed. Talking openly about these things lets me have a clearer idea of what the various advantages are.
*You* will need to come up with your own list of secondary gains. There are some standard ones, but you will have your own unique ones, too. Try asking yourself "What would happen if I got better". You should be able to come up with a list like:
I would have more energy.
I wouldn't be embarrassed that my house is a mess.
I wouldn't be anxious about getting things done.
But your list may also include things like:
I would have to go to parties that I don't think are fun.
I wouldn't have an excuse for screwing up [fill in the blank] anymore.
I would have to take responsibility for my feelings - I couldn't blame them on the depression.
I would have to be good to myself (this is hard if you don't think you are worth being good to...).Does this help? Maybe other people can come up with secondary gain suggestions, too. Just remember that your list will be unique to you.
Posted by mair on January 9, 2005, at 7:47:49
In reply to Re: Wanting to be depressed » mair, posted by fallsfall on January 7, 2005, at 12:20:14
I'm working on my list although mostly my mind doesn't seem to want to go there. I actually can't get much beyond the last one you mentioned maybe because I don't usually think I'm worth being nice to. I can see some value in this exercise although I'm not sure how much help I could get from my T who always suggests that I don't have much control over whether or not I'm depressed. Sometimes I just feel I should be able to will depression away.
I know (think I know?) that you live in NH. Are you more over by the coast? Did you get alot of snow yesterday? It's really pretty where I am; I just don't want to go outside and have to feel the cold.
Mair
Posted by fallsfall on January 9, 2005, at 10:20:24
In reply to Re: Wanting to be depressed » fallsfall, posted by mair on January 9, 2005, at 7:47:49
> I'm working on my list although mostly my mind doesn't seem to want to go there.
*** It is really hard to think about this. What you are doing is "making the unconscious conscious". And, you know, it is unconscious for a reason! So it makes sense that it would be hard to do this. Be gentle with yourself. This isn't so much a "sit down and write out the list" kind of task as it is a "keep in the back of your mind that somethings might start to makes sense to be put on the list". I guess that spend some time envisioning life with out depression and try to figure out what scares me about that. Some of the reasons will come easily, but the important ones will be harder to uncover.
>I actually can't get much beyond the last one you mentioned maybe because I don't usually think I'm worth being nice to.
*** This would be worth talking about in therapy...
>I can see some value in this exercise although I'm not sure how much help I could get from my T who always suggests that I don't have much control over whether or not I'm depressed. Sometimes I just feel I should be able to will depression away.
*** I don't know how much "control" we really have. In my case, I've been severely depressed for 10 years (and disabled for 8 of them). Since depression more commonly comes and goes, it seems fairly obvious to my therapist that I am doing something to maintain the depression.
*** ?? Ultimately, do we all *have* complete control? I mean we *do* (both consciously and unconsciously) determine our own behavior. Could it be that those things that feel "out of our control" are really just those things that are controlled more by our deeply buried unconscious? So could it be that if we find a way to access the unconscious, and effect/modify those motivations that we really would have more control over our lives? I think this is what my therapist believes (Psychodynamic). The question is what unconscious areas do we want to try to access, and how hard do we want to try?
*** What is your therapist's orientation?
*** "Willing it away" is very different from identifying unconscious motivations and resolving them. In one case you tell your self you are not allowed to feel the way you do. In the other you figure out *why* you feel that way and remove the obstacles to feeling differently. One uses force, the other solves the problem.
>
> I know (think I know?) that you live in NH. Are you more over by the coast? Did you get alot of snow yesterday? It's really pretty where I am; I just don't want to go outside and have to feel the cold.*** About 7" I think. Light, pretty snow. Not bad to shovel. The plow did my driveway last night. I have about 3 more inches to get off my front walk this afternoon. I took my dogs for a walk around the block - if you dress for it it is pretty nice out there. Send me your email (I'm babblefallsfall - a hotmail account) if you want to be on my invitee list for New England Babble Ice Cream parties.
>
> Mair*** Good luck, Mair. This is really hard stuff to look at.
Falls.
This is the end of the thread.
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